REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Idaho, Montana wolf hunts back on

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, September 8, 2011 16:41
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Monday, September 5, 2011 10:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

A federal appeals court on Thursday denied a request by environmental groups to halt wolf hunts that are scheduled to begin next week in Idaho and Montana.

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals denied the request by the Alliance for the Wild Rockies and other groups. The groups were seeking to cancel the hunts while the court considers a challenge to congressional action in April that stripped wolves of federal protections in Montana and Idaho, and in parts of Washington, Oregon and Utah.

Earlier this month, U.S. District Judge Donald Molloy in Missoula reluctantly upheld a budget rider that was inserted by Rep. Mike Simpson, R-Idaho, and Sen. Jon Tester, D-Mont. It marked the first time since the passage of the Endangered Species Act in 1973 that Congress forcibly removed protections from a plant or animal.

Molloy ruled that the way Congress went about removing endangered species protections from the Northern Rockies gray wolf undermined the rule of law but did not violate the Constitution. Meanwhile, the environmental groups argued Congress' actions were unconstitutional because they violated the principle of separation of powers.

“We lost the injunction, we have not lost the case,” Mike Garrity, executive director of the Alliance for the Wild Rockies, said of Thursday's court ruling. “We will continue to fight to protect the wolves and enforce the separation of powers doctrine in the U.S. Constitution.”

Meanwhile, John Horning, executive director for WildEarth Guardians, one of the groups involved in the case, said, “We are discouraged we didn't win a stay of execution for wolves, but we are cautiously optimistic that we will win our lawsuit to protect wolves from future persecution.”

Wolf hunts are scheduled to begin Aug. 30 in Idaho and Sept. 3 in Montana. Hunters in Montana will be allowed to shoot as many as 220 gray wolves, reducing the predators' Montana population by about 25 percent to a minimum of 425 wolves.

In Idaho, where an estimated 1,000 wolves roam, state wildlife managers have declined to name a target for kills for the seven-month hunting season. They say the state will manage wolves so their population remains above 150 animals and 15 breeding pairs, the point where Idaho could attract federal scrutiny for a possible re-listing under the Endangered Species Act. http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/boise/2011/aug/25/bid-block-idaho-monta
na-wolf-hunts-rejected/
damn them to hell. I wish this sort of thing could be taken to the Supreme Court...but then we know what the result would be. Any court that thinks corporations are people obviously has no concept of what "people" are, much less "endangered species"!

I wish, I wish, I wish I could be there and take some pot shots at them...not to kill, mind, just to wing 'em...

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Monday, September 5, 2011 10:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

1000 wolves doesn't seem like a lot to me. What's the rationale for thinning them out?

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, September 5, 2011 10:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ranchers. They want NO wolves, because of course wolves kill "so many" of their sheep and cattle. It's always a battle to reintroduce wolves back to their natural habitat because of political pressure from ranchers. They got money for lobbyists; wolves don't.

Best I not get started on the patent falsity of their claims, it wouldn't be a G-rated discussion....


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 11:21 AM

PERFESSERGEE


It's always been interesting to me how rabidly and pathologically people (especially ranchers) view wolves. And the conservation groups have even been indemnifying them for losses (and, of course, every loss of a cow or sheep must be wolves, not poor husbandry). Mountain lions share the Rockies with wolves, and also eat cows and sheep - and here in California, the occasional mountain biker - but they get none of the vitriol and hatred. Well, some of the vitriol, but not the hatred. It's utterly irrational.

And Anthony, 1000 wolves truly isn't very many. Most conservation biologists (including myself) think that 1000 is a minimally acceptable number for long-term viability. 5000 would be much better.

The irony is that the Yellowstone reintro has been a major ecological success. They have moved the elk away from streamside corridors, allowing vegetation to regrow and keeping streams much cooler. This has increased aquatic productivity and biodiversity. The elk are more dispersed and harder to hunt (by wolves), and compete less with deer and other large herbivores. The Park and the surrounding ecosystem,, is much healthier. Plus, they are a major tourist attraction and contribute millions to park revenues.

Yeeesh.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Ranchers. They want NO wolves, because of course wolves kill "so many" of their sheep and cattle. It's always a battle to reintroduce wolves back to their natural habitat because of political pressure from ranchers. They got money for lobbyists; wolves don't.

Best I not get started on the patent falsity of their claims, it wouldn't be a G-rated discussion....


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





perfessergee

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 11:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, Perfesser, it's so great to hear from someone else who understands the situation, AND, obviously, has been following the re=intro in Yellowstone. Isn't it wonderful? And wasn't it a battle?--well, isn't it STILL? Makes me sick when I hear the yapping by ranchers...they have some valid points, but the rhetoric sometimes comes across just like politicians, it's so overblown.

I think mythology has a lot to do with the hatred of wolves, same as snakes. I used to take my snakes to classrooms for teachers, and there was little or no fear from the kids, the younger they were, the less predjudice. Same with wolves; I went to classes with people who brought wolves, too, and the kids would howl and get the wolves to howl right along with them. But seemingly once we're adults, we're more indoctrinated into fearing/hating certain species.

It doesn't help that current entertainment persists with the prejudices. I see made-for-tv sci fi where they use completely docile species of snakes, like common boas, as "deadly", and both the use of wolves as bad guys and the persistence of the werewolf myth only perpetuate the problem.

Of course, the situation in Yellowstone beautifully illustrates how our own prejudices and our attempts to change nature to fit OUR convenience by eliminating predators besides ourselves is assinine, but few pay attention.

I'm not sure what will happen when wolves get down here...they are headed this way, and given conservation efforts and the attitudes in Washington and Oregon, they may well make it in my lifetime. It's true that cougars don't get the same bad rap here; people are scared and a few have been attacked in the East Bay, and we see them now and again these days on our watershed lands, but it doesn't cause the stir the appearance of a wolf would, by far! Marin is very environmentally sensitive and animal friendly, so aside from warning signs, there's never been conflict between our big cats and us (also helps that we're not permitted to keep developing into their habitat). I wonder what will happen when the wolves arrive?

Actually, the coyotes only arrived a few years ago, and they've been no problem, come to think of it. We hear them a lot, and see them up on the divide where people hike, bike and walk their dogs (Tashi even wandered over and sniffed noses with a couple last year). They lost some pets up there at first when they let their cats out at night, etc., but seem to have adapted to having them around pretty well. Keeps the deer population down, as does having the big cats back. Cougars were almost completely wiped out in California decades ago (as you obviously know), their re-intro has been noticeably less contentious than Yellowstones re-intro of wolves (tho' there have definitely been movements to hunt them again).

People are funny. The more I know them, the better I like animals.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 1:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA



What's worse is these damn dimwits seem to have no clue whatsoever of how nature works...

I mean, you want the wolves to leave your herd alone, well then raise a few skunks with em - them wolves *WILL* leave your herd alone, getting shot at doesn't much occur to them and they've little instinctive aversion to it, but they KNOW what them stripes mean, and will seek out easier prey, duh.

Of course, not yet having ever met a rancher that wasn't a complete dick.. my sympathies are quite limited anyway.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 1:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Entertainingly true and close to home! Malcolm Reynolds IS kind of a jerk.

Though I always thought he might go against the grain and have a little bit of admiration for the animal in spite of himself and his former life.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 2:15 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

What happened to the old days, when people had shepherds watching their flock? If the losses aren't worth a few minimum wage security positions, they can't be that bad.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 8:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


One can't eat a wolf, well I guess in China one can, but people here don't eat canine meat, plus animals who are predators don't taste as good as animals who eat plants or fish (yeah predators eat fish but you know what I mean). Do they just want to hunt the wolves for their pelts?

It surprises me that people find wolves scarier than cougars, cougars do kill people sometimes, but wolves don't really do that, I never hear about wolf maulings even in Alaska or other places that have more wolves. So why is there such an ingrained hatred for wolves? I can understand being frustrated about sheep loss, but even people who don't have sheep seem to find wolves scarier than cougars.

And a thousand doesn't seem like that many to me either.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, September 7, 2011 4:00 AM

BYTEMITE


Actually I hear bear meat is pretty good provided you get it when the bears aren't eating too much fish. And humans supposedly taste like pork. Both of them eat other animals at times.

Meat is basically made of the same components whether you're talking a carnivore, omnivore, or herbivore, the only differences that might relate to taste is fat, leanness, tenderness, and any temporary chemicals from diet that might linger in the tissue. I'm not sure there's much difference in the food quality of predators versus prey animals.

The only reason people don't normally eat dogs in the western culture is a taboo against it tracing back to Judea. The same is true for horses, though we came around to pigs and shellfish.

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Wednesday, September 7, 2011 6:42 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yeah, I'd like to try bear, but I hear its an acquired taste and they don't taste very good if you get them right before they go into hybrination, they're greasy and yucky then. But I'd like to try bear, I watch those shows on the travel channel where they try all sorts of foods from other places and cultures, some of them look really yummy.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, September 7, 2011 7:14 PM

BYTEMITE


Makes sense, before they hibernate they'd have put on a lot of weight for the winter.

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem: Convincing a skunk to hang around where you put him is pretty tough; animals go where the food source is, among other things. And wolves are quite sensible enough to go around a skunk, which will just stand there and raise it's tail if they come across one, so poses no threat.

We had most of this conversation before, when that kid thought he'd chased away two wolves somewhere in the Scandinavian area. At that time, some guy was working on a recording project; play the howls of a wolf pack and no other wolf pack will encroach on what they consider "their" territory (some wolf urine here and there would solidify the situation). I often wonder what happened to his work...

I don't think ranchers are that stupid. I think most humans would think the same way, if they had something to guard and thought wolves were attacking it. It's pretty human nature to blame something already hated for problems, I think you'd find it about anywhere.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, it's more complicated than that. They're taken for pelt, up, but mostly to keep them away from cattle and sheep, etc.--or at least that's the excuse. In actuality, ranchers are paid for every lost animal that can be proven to be taken by wolves, and there aren't that many. It's more the human nature thing; we never DID abide competition from whatever predator lived in the area. Our cougars in CA were all but wiped out long ago, made a comeback once protected, and now there's constant pressure to open up hunting again. Our species brooks no opposition, even when it's only imagined.

Remember, too, up in Alaska good old Mrs. Lookatme has been hunting them (dunno if she does it from airplaes, but others do) for ages, as have many others. Up there, all they want as proof is a tail, and they used to have a bounty on them.

Shouldn't surprise you people are more afraid of wolves. Look at our mythology...how many "evil cougars" do you see in movies, TV, fairy tales, etc., etc.? Not many. We have a long history of fearing wolves, and it hasn't changed for many people. Occasionally I get people asking if my huskies are wolves (!), tho' neither looks even slightly like one!

We had a looong thread about this problem and about wolves attacking people (there are few, if any, documented incidents of same, especially here in America). There were accounts of wolf packs attacking humans in ancient Europe, most of which were found to be rabid dogs or some other cause when investigated. There were actual documented cases in Russia ages ago, but wolves have been pretty much wiped out in most places man inhabits.

The current concern is that we've invaded their habitat so much that they've grown accustomed to us, so fear is they'll attack humans (like bears do). Hasn't happened, or not more than once or twice, and wolves (like cougars) keep a low profile. We've had joggers, as mentioned, attacked by cougars across the Bay, but that's because the cougars come across them and, of course, they're RUNNING. But we've got them here with no problems, and down on the Peninsula they're spotted fairly frequently, again with no problems.

The first reason I hated Palin was her stand on wolves; she's been ACTIVE in lobbying to get their protection lifted for years, and of course is tickled pink to hunt them. Bitch. Never heard of anyone eating them, tho' certainly some may, mostly they're taken for their pelts, bounty or just to get rid of them. It's a continuing controversy wherever the are (and to a lesser degree, where any predator encroaches on mankind). Part of the controversy in the Lower 48 is that we wiped out our own wolves, so when they re-introduced, they did so with Canadian Greys, which are bigger and more aggressive than our own Greys were. There's fear that familiarity with humans combined with that will cause trouble. It may, in fact; we encroach on everything's habitat to a point where they're pressured beyond normal ability to survive. I hope not, but in the states where hunting has been opened again, they hunt them for sport...with the argument that they're dangerous to stock. That's the excuse, anyway.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Do they just want to hunt the wolves for their pelts?



That's what my brother-in-law wants - to go with his other trophies. I can't really see the point of hunting what you can't eat, but whatever.

BTW, I believe in many states, farmers or the state wildlife guys can already kill wolves identified as threats to livestock.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:21 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

dunno if she does it from airplaes, but others do


Having been up there just recently, TECHNICALLY that's supposed to be illegal. There's a law that you can't go hunting on the same day you've been in an airplane that's supposed to stymie this a little. But I imagine it's difficult to enforce.

BTW, Niki, you might be interested in a story I heard up there about a wolf named Romeo. He loved to play with domesticated dogs, though he turned away or scared off the little dogs (without hurting them, I might add).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28381818/ns/travel-seasonal_travel/t/black
-wolf-juneau-back-winter
/

http://www.adn.com/2010/06/02/1304516/juneau-mourns-loss-of-lovable.ht
ml

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh, I hadn't mentioned this cause it slipped my mind, but the management of site three did find out about the coyote and was a mite concerned...

To which my exact comment was "Oh leave him alone, he ain't botherin nobody and he eats them damn groundhogs.."

Meh, if only most folk were so easy to convince, although the maintainence guys rabid hatred of them groundhogs prolly had a lot to do with the sudden attitude change.
Not to mention why call in and pay for someone to remove the coyote, and the groundhogs, when one will do for the other and move on, nature does work, if you only let it.

Of course, my current "hunting" task is much more benevolent - one of the residents indoor cats slipped out while they were bringing in groceries, and now they're quite distraught and have appealed to the site management since there's only one chance of tracking a frightened housecat down in the dark and lousy weather we've been having - this isn't the first time I've done it, you see...
While not exactly technically any part of my job responsibilities, having recently lost a dear kitty myself I know all too well what a crushing blow that can be, and I mean to rescue the poor critter if it can be at all done - not to mention it's good practice, and really, there's not much else to do since the folks I am paid to scare off ALREADY avoid this place like it's cursed.

Wish me luck, ehe ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Aw, you lost a kitty? :(

I saw a coyote recently too.

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I sure wish you hadn't included that second link, Byte. As I read the first I thought to myself "yeah, well, he'll no doubt be killed soon enough", and there it was in the second one. Wolves who frequent humans never last long. It was a neat story, but I'd have enjoyed it a lot more without the ending.

Lone wolves aren't that unusual, whatever the reason. It's usually a juvenile male excluded from the pack by the alpha male, and they usually join up with another pack or start their own...the length of time he was alone isn't common, but not rare. I'm sure he wasn't "mourning" anyone, certainly they form connections and have been seen "mourning" over loss of pups, but he wouldn't hang around that long. Given their social nature, I would assume it's because he sought out some kind of kindred spirits, and perhaps the dogs in the area provided that for him. I'm sorry he went the way of what I imagine is 99% of the way wolves die.

And yes, Geezer, there's never been any question; a wolf who is proven to have taken livestock is eradicated, as is a lion or tiger who goes after humans. That's not what this thread is about, it's about sport hunting.

Wolf (and bear) hunting from the air may be technically illegal, but nobody's bothering to stop them, because you hear about it a lot.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:56 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Of course, my current "hunting" task is much more benevolent - one of the residents indoor cats slipped out while they were bringing in groceries, and now they're quite distraught and have appealed to the site management since there's only one chance of tracking a frightened housecat down in the dark and lousy weather we've been having - this isn't the first time I've done it, you see...
While not exactly technically any part of my job responsibilities, having recently lost a dear kitty myself I know all too well what a crushing blow that can be, and I mean to rescue the poor critter if it can be at all done - not to mention it's good practice, and really, there's not much else to do since the folks I am paid to scare off ALREADY avoid this place like it's cursed.

Wish me luck, ehe ?

-Frem




Now I'm imagining Frem creeping through the housing development late at night, in his tactical gear with artificial bits oiled into silence, bowl of milk in hand, whispering "Here, kitty, kitty, kitty, damn it."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 11:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Sarah Palin, the governor of Alaska and John McCain's vice presidential pick, is an enthusiastic hunter who has proposed legislation and cash incentives to encourage aerial wolf gunning, the controversial practice of shooting wolves from an aircraft. Do people in Alaska really shoot wolves from planes?

Yes, but only with the government's permission. Aerial shooting yields better results than traditional hunting, since it allows the hunter to cover a lot of ground quickly and track target animals from a clear vantage point. But many hunters found the practice unsportsmanlike, since it violates the "fair chase" ethic, and animal rights activists call it inhumane, since airborne gunmen rarely get a clean (i.e., relatively painless) kill. In response to concerns like these, Congress passed the Federal Airborne Hunting Act of 1972, which made it illegal for hunters to shoot animals from a plane or helicopter. (HAH!)

The federal legislation (PDF) does have a loophole for predator control, permitting state employees or licensed individuals to shoot from an aircraft for the sake of protecting "land, water, wildlife, livestock, domesticated animals, human life, or crops." (This doesn't just apply to wolves; coyotes and foxes are sometimes gunned down from aircraft, especially in Western states.) Since 2003, Alaska has issued aerial wolf-hunting permits in select areas where moose and caribou populations are particularly endangered. The idea is that by killing the predators, the airborne gunmen can ramp up the number of moose and caribou that human hunters can take home for supper.

Airborne hunters tend to fly single-engine Super Cub planes at very low speeds and at altitudes of less than 100 feet—sometimes swooping down to 10 to 15 feet above the ground. But flying so slow and low can be dangerous, and there have been a number of reported deaths in recent years as a result. Helicopters have the benefit of being able to hover very close to the ground, but they're prohibitively expensive for private pilots. (A small helicopter might cost as much as four times more than a Super Cub.) This past spring, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game lent its helicopters and employees to the predator-control effort.

There are two methods for making a kill during an aerial hunting expedition: Either you shoot the wolf while airborne or you track the animal from above, then land and shoot it from the ground. Legal limits on "land and shoot" hunting have been far less stringent: For many years after shooting from the air was outlawed, anyone with a hunting or trapping license could practice "land and shoot," provided he or she walked a certain distance from his plane before opening fire. Current rules in Alaska require a delay between landing an aircraft and killing an animal: In most cases, hunters must wait until 3 the following morning before they can get started.

Back in the 1950s, Alaska paid government employees and bounty hunters to take out thousands of wolves, but today's aerial wolf killers are unpaid. (They can make some money by selling the wolf pelts.) Palin tried last year to have the state pay $150 for every wolf killed, but the state superior court shot that down as an illegal use of bounty payments, which were outlawed in that state in 1984. http://www.slate.com/id/2199140/ I really, really despise my own species...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, September 8, 2011 11:17 AM

BYTEMITE


Sorry Niki. It is a nice story, and I hated to bring it down that way, but considering the context of the thread I thought that the what happened next was kind of relevant.

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 11:18 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I love your image of Frem, aka The Curse, in the middle of the night coaxing the kitty out. That is priceless.
:)

Byte, yes, Frem's Calista kitty passed away while you were gone. :(

Arial hunting? LUH SUH, that is rediculous, that doesn't take any bonding with nature or understanding the ways of the woods or anything. Why would someone want to do that?

Way to solve problem: If a wolf has taken livestock and is going to be killed anyway, have one of the local guys who wants a pelt do it and keep the pelt for himself. Now granted there are more people who want pelts than there are livestock-eating wolves, but hey, its not what you know its who you know, so this would encourage everyone to be nicer to each other in their community so they stand a better chance of being chosen to do it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:41 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Now I'm imagining Frem creeping through the housing development late at night, in his tactical gear with artificial bits oiled into silence, bowl of milk in hand, whispering "Here, kitty, kitty, kitty, damn it."


Annnd he says this *AS* I am sitting here applying graphite to the ankle unit with camera and spinlight already attached to my belt and a pile of kitty toys for the various pockets of my gear sitting next to the clipboard... lmao.

I think I'll try the laser pointer first though, and if I can fix an approximate location try using heated tuna fish to lure him out, easier to carry than milk.

In extremis, if they're not using it, imma borrow the local Search and Rescue teams Osprey(IR Tracker) since it's cold and wet and he'll stand out like a beacon, and yes they trust me that much, plus it's good PR, even if they are gonna laugh at me for it.

-Frem

PS. Yes Byte, Kallista passed away, the relevant thread is here.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=49535

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No matter what happens...
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Petition: Take the Keys of the White House away from Allan Lichtman
Wed, November 6, 2024 16:15 - 5 posts
What kind of superpower could China be?
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End of the Democratic Party (not kidding)
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Abortion
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Hollywood exposes themselves as the phony whores they are
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Senate Elections 2022
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