REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why Scientists Are Smarter than Politicians

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 18:15
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Monday, October 3, 2011 4:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I found this interesting, and pertinent to the mentality of some of today's Republican candidates for President.
Quote:

One of the best things about being an artist is that nobody can tell you you're doing things wrong. There's no true or false in a Picasso painting, no yes or no in a Mahler composition. That, of course, is how it should be.

The opposite is true for science — and that's how it should be too. The scientific method is defined by the search for the irreducible truth. The riddle of a disease isn't solved till you've isolated the virus; no particle is fully understood till it's been successfully smashed. It's not for nothing that recent news of a neutrino that may have traveled .0025% faster than light is causing such a stir. If that vanishingly tiny anomaly can't be resolved and disproven, a century of physics could collapse.

But the stone walls between art and science aren't nearly as thick as they seem; indeed, in some ways they're entirely permeable. That's a lesson we badly need to learn if we're going to make sound policy decisions in an era in which science and politics seem increasingly at odds.

In the Oct. 3 issue of TIME, theoretical physicist Lisa Randall of Harvard University made a plea for greater deference to reason in the still-young but already-ugly 2012 presidential campaign. Randall lamented "the fundamental disregard for rational and scientific thinking" in a political culture in which Texas governor Rick Perry can dismiss evolution as "merely a theory that's out there," and Minnesota Congresswoman Michele Bachmann can traffic in poppycock about the HPV vaccine causing mental retardation.

Randall's new book, Knocking on Heaven's Door, takes the case one intriguing step further. The book explores some of the biggest ideas in contemporary physics and how they undergird such everyday matters as risk assessment, logic and even our understanding of beauty. But it's in her chapter on creativity — not a quality always associated with the data-crunching business of science — that she makes her most compelling case against the willful know-nothingism that plagues public debate.

For any highly accomplished person, creativity begins with the least creative mindset possible — a near-obsessive ability to think endlessly about a problem, and indeed an inability not to think about it. "Even if golf pros perfect their swing over countless repeated attempts," Randall writes, "I don't believe everyone can hit a ball a thousand times without becoming exceedingly bored or frustrated." Tiger Woods could do that and — at least before his current woes on the links — the results showed not just in championship play, but in flat-out inspirational play. Something similar is true of science too.

"Once skills...become second nature, you can call them up much more easily when you need them," Randall writes. "Such embedded skills often continue operating in the background — even before they push good ideas into your conscious mind." Larry Page once told Randall that the "seed idea" for Google came to him in a dream, but that was only after he had been absorbed by the problem for months. We never questioned Woods' swing, and we certainly don't question the brilliance of what Page helped invent. But we feel free to sneer at what scientists tell us when it serves our political ends.

None of this means we should defer to scientists simply because they have the degrees to back up their claims. That kind of blind belief in the well-lettered has led to everything from the disgrace that was the eugenics movement to the nincompoopery of the vaccine scare. What's more, Randall herself is a scientist and not above a little inside-the-clubhouse bias. Still, history has tended to prove the points she makes.

Several years ago, when I was writing a book about the polio vaccine, I had the opportunity to spend months wading through the personal papers of Jonas Salk. It was only when I had gone through few the first few thousand letters, memos, notebooks and even scrawled phone messages that it occurred to me that I hadn't stumbled on a single doodle — not one. It became something of a game to look for one and finally, deep in a notebook in which Salk was recording data from a mouse study, there it was — a tiny triangular design made of perhaps six or seven pen strokes. That was it, the entire body of Jonas Salk's art work. And yet the inspiration to create a vaccine that hundreds of other scientists had sought — and the millions of lives that were saved as a result of it — is surely artistry of a far higher kind.

Scientists aren't always right, but when they talk, they deserve at least the initial presumption of wisdom. All of us — especially the people who seek to lead us — could well learn something from listening to what they have to say. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2095264,00.html

Consider this my response to Perry, Bachmann, and the debate about climate change.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 4:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There is an increasing polarization today, and I think it's a healthy one. It's not between right and left, but between crazy and not-crazy.

By "crazy", I don't mean frank mental illness. What I mean by "crazy" is the refusal to look and think. We see this all the time here. People who are so embedded in their mind-set that they literally block off massive chunks of reality to preserve their emotional comfort. The idea of putting their responses on-hold long enough to think w/o bias is... well, nonexistent. To them, believing in something makes it "true", which makes it "real". Sad little kings of sad little hills.

I see that science is beginning to elucidate the mental deficiencies of people like that. Science is tracing the lack of brain activity through PET scans and fMRIs and other advanced techniques, and while authors are careful not to phrase their findings that some people are deficient, it's pretty clear to me that is exactly the case. And furthermore, they are beginning to see that a whole group of people are either giant toddlers or big bullies, and are objectively categorizing human performance.

What I find ironic... pretty funny, actually... is that these deluded/ deficient people see themselves as some sort of "masterminds"... the John Galts of today.

I would find it amusing if the REAL John Galts... the scientists and engineers and programmers who make today's life possible... would look at the clusterfuck that is today's politics and economics and just... yanno... decide to withdraw their services and let the religious whackos and psychopaths duke it out.


BTW Niki... several paragraphs in your post are repeated.



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Monday, October 3, 2011 5:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thanx, Sig...I fixed it. Sometimes my 'copy' 'paste' skills ain't what they should be!

I agree with all you said; said, isn't it? I guess it's always been that way with humans in virtually every society...perhaps the more complex the society, and/or the more frequent the fraud, the more you get conspiracy theorists, I dunno.

For me, it's been that the most recent crop of hard-core right-wingers has brought it to the fore, and left me speechless at the frequency of what I would call "deliberate stupidity".


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, October 3, 2011 5:05 AM

BYTEMITE


"Why ANYONE is smarter than politicians"...

Sorry, had to get the knee-jerk reaction out of my system. I'll try reading the article now.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 5:06 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I'm reposting this from the 'mental illness' thread:

"If being super partisan is the only problem then one could assume that there isn't a mental illness issue."

Well, what if being super-partisan leads you to deny whole chunks of reality and believe in whole chunks of fables? I know I have referenced this a few times already, but it was a real eye-opener to me which outlines a basic mental glitch in processing reality in the super-partisan - How facts backfire ( http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_
backfire
/).

Saying that people are sane except for super-partisanship, seems to me a bit like saying well, you're basically healthy except for that metabolic cystic fibrosis glitch.




Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 3, 2011 5:09 AM

BYTEMITE


Well, apart from the parts about "vaccine scare" I agree. And I only mildly object to those parts simply because the HPV vaccine has caused cases of Guillian-Barre Syndrome - which I'll admit is not mental retardation, though it is pretty serious.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 5:15 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


But perhaps we're doing this to ourselves. I saw a show on TV recently where researchers were looking at the effects of early life stress on later behavior. They found that something as simple as early weaning could affect exploratory behavior, memory, aggression levels, hormone levels etc in pigs. The changes were quite striking, even to the casual TV watcher like me.

Now take our inhumane society (which we have constructed) and our reality (a chunk of which is formed by our learning - the world is like ... society should be ... people are ...) and what do you get but an stressful uncertain environment for the young?

Perhaps we are creating our own population of sanity-deficient people.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 3, 2011 5:19 AM

BYTEMITE


1kiki: Well, there seems to be some kind of well-documented psychological feedback mechanisms in play when it comes to super-partisnship.

It appears to be a combination of a deliberate outside highjacking of people's drive for internal logical and moral consistency, and people come up with their own justification for why they believe the way they do. Present just one issue or outcome that has to be reconciled, and in the course of reconciling eventually distortions of reality and personal perception build until on that particular subject they have accepted an entirely constructed take on reality and their own reactions to it.

That reality becomes unquestionable, even when, in a similar situation that logical consistency would suggest they make a similar conclusion, they can believe entirely the opposite. (Doublethink)

Eventually with one so meddled with it can be difficult to tell what were their original unaltered thoughts and opinions.

These people are actually probably working as intended on a psychological level, the problem of course is that people will exploit the little breaks in reality we all have.

As for your theory about the environment and stress, I have little doubt that this is the case.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 6:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And I still think that the real John Galts should just set society adrift. Then all the scammers and believers and bullshit artists and parasites could do... yanno... do their thing. Without anyone picking up the wreckage after them. God, what a kick in the pants THAT would be!

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Monday, October 3, 2011 7:36 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Siggy, that too was part of my childhood epiphany, and forevermore I called em plastic-bubble-people in my own mind... still do, really.

Beyond that I've nothing to add since y'all have covered all the turf I was going to, even the snark!
(thanks Byte )

Crazy people in a Crazy world, and perhaps these days, sanity itself is an act of defiance.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 9:48 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"For any highly accomplished person, creativity begins with the least creative mindset possible — a near-obsessive ability to think endlessly about a problem, and indeed an inability not to think about it."

This kind of search makes science and your own mentation self-correcting. If you are really, truly looking for an answer to a question - you have a puzzle you can't help but try to solve - then data will continually point you along the path. Each new bit will make your thinking more accurate.

That's why I think it almost doesn't matter what the puzzle is that you start with. That puzzle will be connected to another puzzle, and so on. Even if you are starting with a very small puzzle, you will be on the path 'to see the world in a grain of sand'. And that's why I think there is no such thing as a useless fact. No such thing as wasted learning. No such thing as a pointless question. When pursued, all these lead to truth, as best we can know it.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 3, 2011 11:30 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
There is an increasing polarization today, and I think it's a healthy one. It's not between right and left, but between crazy and not-crazy.

By "crazy", I don't mean frank mental illness. What I mean by "crazy" is the refusal to look and think. We see this all the time here. People who are so embedded in their mind-set that they literally block off massive chunks of reality to preserve their emotional comfort. The idea of putting their responses on-hold long enough to think w/o bias is... well, nonexistent. To them, believing in something makes it "true", which makes it "real". Sad little kings of sad little hills.





Someone posted something here ( it might have even been me!) about how little facts sway people's belief system, and in fact the more facts that you present to someone to disprove their position, the more entrenched they become. It seems to explain the climate debate, religious belief, and why homeopathy and reiki are still considered to be healing despite all evidence to the contrary

here is the article http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_
backfire
/

From the article "Most of us like to believe that our opinions have been formed over time by careful, rational consideration of facts and ideas, and that the decisions based on those opinions, therefore, have the ring of soundness and intelligence. In reality, we often base our opinions on our beliefs, which can have an uneasy relationship with facts. And rather than facts driving beliefs, our beliefs can dictate the facts we chose to accept. They can cause us to twist facts so they fit better with our preconceived notions. Worst of all, they can lead us to uncritically accept bad information just because it reinforces our beliefs. This reinforcement makes us more confident we’re right, and even less likely to listen to any new information. And then we vote.

This effect is only heightened by the information glut, which offers — alongside an unprecedented amount of good information — endless rumors, misinformation, and questionable variations on the truth. In other words, it’s never been easier for people to be wrong, and at the same time feel more certain that they’re right."

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:01 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Signe and Kiki love to dis on others as dillusional because they believe differently. Sometimes I can sort of see what they mean (not about the crazy, but about the slagging) but sometimes they are just mean about it. They seem just as closed minded about certain things as those they deride. Not all the time, but often enough that Ifeel like saying it out loud so to speak.

Thank you Byte! Your snark was totally what this thread needed because we all agree.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I think Sheila Jackson Lee made a perfect case for that, with her comments about the Mars rover taking pics of the flag ON THE MOON!


Just not too bright, that one.



But to the specific issue of politicians and science, I've had this general disdain for MOST folks, not just elected officials, for most of my adult life. That point being, many adults are painfully clueless. Ms Jackson Lee is a prime example. To her, that space stuff is just something that's " out there " , somewhere. To her, it's not real. Not important. I doubt she's taken 5 minutes to think about what lies beyond our atmo, before or since her infamous remark.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:38 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Q: "Why Scientists Are Smarter Than Politicians":

A: Because everyone is smarter than politicians.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Signe and Kiki love to dis on others as dillusional because they believe differently
Nope. I love to dis on peeps as delusional because they believe. Despite, I might add, drowning in a sea of contrary facts. And that is the definition of delusion.

We have rappy here as our prime example. He claims that Bush lowering taxes increased Federal revenues. So I posted the actual Federal revenues for many years before the Bush tax cuts, as well as afterwards. Did the actual numbers go up?
Nope.
Did that have an impact on rappy's belief system?
Nope!

He claimed (at one point) that 90% of people pay no taxes. He claimed that the rich pay more in taxes now than ever before, despite the tax rate having dropped from 90% (in the 1950s) to less than 35% today. That Fannie and Freddie (USA government-insured mortgage buyers) caused the financial collapse everywhere!, not just in the USA! He claimed that UN R1441 somehow allowed/mandated the invasion of Iraq, and when shown the exact wording of the resolution which allowed no such thing- and for comparison other UN resolutions which actually DID allow military action (for example Haiti and Kosovo) he still insisted that this was all done under UN authority. He claimed that Saddam and Osama bin Laden were working together on 9-11. Just before the economy collapsed, he said it was ON FIRE! Even when people tried to tell him otherwise.

I could go on....

and on...

and on...

this guy's whacko ideas are legion! And SO well-known!

...but I think you get the point. rappy is the guy insisting that 2+3=7. That the earth is flat. That the sky is green and the sun is black. It doesn't make a whit of difference how many times people point and say Look. There it is. Please look for yourself. rappy is the quintessential delusionist.

So, yeah, when people are delusional they can be called on it. And if you find that I'm delusional, please tell me so. Be specific. But be prepared to argue your point vigorously because I DON'T just "believe" what people say. You need to bring facts and logic to the table.

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