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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
1 Marine vs. 30 Cops (the Marine Wins!)
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:26 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:35 PM
CHRISISALL
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:38 PM
KIRKULES
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:39 PM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:48 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kirkules: That's pretty cool, I don't know what the protesters want, but they should be able to express themselves without being abused by the amateurish police of NYC.
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:49 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Sad, really.
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:53 PM
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:54 PM
M52NICKERSON
DALEK!
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: He's arguing with himself. Got the right, of course, but he's not helping their cause. They have no cause. They're just useful idiots, is all.
Monday, October 17, 2011 12:57 PM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: They have a cause, only a true idiot would not see that.
Monday, October 17, 2011 1:03 PM
Quote: That Marine is a hero in more then one way.
Quote: Coast Guard member harassed, spat on by Occupy Boston protesters The woman was walking to the train and said protesters spit on her twice, called her foul names and even threw a water bottle at her. Now, the Coast Guard is warning all staff working on Atlantic Avenue to avoid those protesters while in uniform. Devon Pendleton, a spokesman for Occupy Boston, doesn’t believe that those male protestors are actually part of the movement. However, Pendleton wants to be clear, that if protestors are responsible for doing something so disrespectful, he’d like to apologize on behalf of Occupy Boston.
Monday, October 17, 2011 1:19 PM
BYTEMITE
Monday, October 17, 2011 2:27 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: Coast Guard member harassed, spat on by Occupy Boston protesters The woman was walking to the train and said protesters spit on her twice, called her foul names and even threw a water bottle at her. Now, the Coast Guard is warning all staff working on Atlantic Avenue to avoid those protesters while in uniform. Devon Pendleton, a spokesman for Occupy Boston, doesn’t believe that those male protestors are actually part of the movement. However, Pendleton wants to be clear, that if protestors are responsible for doing something so disrespectful, he’d like to apologize on behalf of Occupy Boston.
Monday, October 17, 2011 3:08 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Monday, October 17, 2011 3:14 PM
JONGSSTRAW
Quote:Originally posted by chrisisall: They want to see change come from a rising awareness rather than bloodshed. I'm down with that.
Monday, October 17, 2011 3:19 PM
Monday, October 17, 2011 6:49 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Jongsstraw: Quote:Originally posted by chrisisall: They want to see change come from a rising awareness rather than bloodshed. I'm down with that. Maybe stupid, maybe noble, but it doesn't matter. Soon the rioters, anarchists, and criminal hooligans will take over and ultimately destroy this movement, just like the Hells' Angels/Altamont incident destroyed the Woodstock Nation. Don't take your Earth shoes out of mothballs just yet.
Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:34 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote: Devon Pendleton, a spokesman for Occupy Boston, doesn’t believe that those male protestors are actually part of the movement. However, Pendleton wants to be clear, that if protestors are responsible for doing something so disrespectful, he’d like to apologize on behalf of Occupy Boston.
Quote: Every organization is represented by all kinds, it seems
Friday, October 21, 2011 6:58 AM
FREMDFIRMA
Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:16 PM
Monday, October 24, 2011 5:03 AM
Quote:Originally posted by RionaEire: What are the Oathkeepers?
Quote:Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, peace officers, and veterans who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic … and meant it. Our oath is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and that oath will be kept. We won’t “just follow orders." Below is our declaration of orders we will NOT obey because we will consider them unconstitutional (and thus unlawful) and immoral violations of the natural rights of the people. Such orders would be acts of war against the American people by their own government, and thus acts of treason. We will not make war against our own people. We will not commit treason. We will defend the Republic. Declaration of Orders We Will NOT Obey Recognizing that we each swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and affirming that we are guardians of the Republic, of the principles in our Declaration of Independence, and of the rights of our people, we affirm and declare the following: 1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people. 2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects - such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons. 3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal. 4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor. 5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union. 6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps. 7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext. 8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war. 9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever. 10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances. The above list is not exhaustive but we do consider them to be clear tripwires – they form our “line in the sand,” and if we receive such orders, we will not obey them. Further, we will know that the time for another American Revolution is nigh. If such a revolution comes, at that time, not only will we NOT fire upon our fellow Americans who righteously resist such egregious violations of their God given rights, we will join them in fighting against those who dare attempt to enslave them. NOTE: please also read our Principles of Our Republic We Are Sworn to Defend
Quote:"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Monday, October 24, 2011 8:52 AM
Quote:The Marines have arrived. Last week, amidst the frothing sea of protesters in New York, assembling to protest what they see as rampant greed and political corruption, Marine Sgt. Shamar Thomas, an Iraq War Veteran, started a fire that has suddenly begun to grow and rage. As the Marine angrily stood up for protesters who were allegedly being aggressively arrested by riot police, he reminded the standing authorities, who looked stunned as they listened to the his frustrated and furious rant, that they were not "in a war zone." "Leave these people alone," he was heard shouting. "These are US citizens! Stop hurting these people, man! Why are you doing this to our people?" He continued, emphasizing his confusion at the seemingly unbalanced reaction to a peaceful demonstration: "I've been to Iraq for 14 months for my people... They don't have guns! ...Why are you hurting these people? It doesn't make any sense... There is no honor in this!" In the wake of this outburst of raw frustration, those of the group now known as OccupyMARINES, whose members had been cautiously monitoring the situation in New York since the first day of protest, began to take a stand against perceived police brutality against peaceful assemblers. An estimated 20,000 non-active Marine Veterans have decided to band together and form the aforementioned group, with the stated purpose of supporting and protecting the growing movement, offering "organization, direction, supply and logistics, and leadership... especially for the oncoming winter months." Asking that no individual be granted special recognition, in keeping with the traditions of the Marine Corp and the overall sentiment of the movement, the group spoke with me as one, saying that they intend to "stop the brutality used against demonstrators... with tact and respect." Beyond this basic intention of protection, the group also hopes to "diminish what we believe to be the 1 percenter's attempt to discredit what OWS was attempting to achieve by expressing, or influencing, public opinion with such excerpts as: The OWS participants are unemployed, hippies, or college kids looking for a handout; They are anarchists; and They are a movement organized by the 1% for control purposes. "Our initial goal by coming forward was to legitimize the OWS argument that should America continue down the path currently set forth, America will eventually cease to exist. OccupyMARINES wants America to understand her military, though employed at the time by the Federal government, are Americans that have freely elected to defend her, to sacrifice individual life should it be required, and will not stand idly by as the 1% continues to rip out the heart of America." It is important for those outside the movement to be aware that no member of OccupyMARINES is an actively serving member of the armed forces, nor are any a member of the Individual Ready Reserves (IRR.) Additionally, the group has set forth a strict set of guidelines with regards to dress code, in keeping with the requirements of the military uniform code. They will not be in dress uniform, but will be organizing "blouses which identify branch affliliation affixed with an OWS logo for shirts and sweatshirts..." The group's dress code, in keeping with the tradition of military precision, goes on to outline exactly what each member should wear, down the the brand and color, so as to be identified easily as part of OccupyMARNES. "Should non-active military supporters present themselves at demonstrator groups in military dress uniform, we ask that they do not actively participate in group activities. We will honor our military uniforms and the sacrifices of our brother's and sister's. Only non-dress uniform supporters may actively participate." The group is also hoping for a little help from the American entertainment industry. Knowing well that the influence of popular celebrities can greatly impact media attention, which the group believes have "refused, and continues to refuse..." to offer adequate and fair news coverage. They have asked the "celebrity class of America to support OWS and OccupyMARINES in waking America up. Celebrities such as Justin Timberlake, Will Smith, Jennifer Lopez and the rest at #OccupyCelebrities, take a stand with us at 1 Liberty Street in Manhattan. Zuccotti Park is waiting for your help." And above all, the Marines have requested that all supporters express support for the "brave men and women of the New York City Police Department and Fire Department... by providing hot coffee and food to eat. These honorable men and women are out there along side us and deserve to be remembered for their roles in 'Occupy' America. OccupyMARINES asks supporters to create and express signs in support of NYPD and FDNY. OccupyMARINES extend our eternal gratitude to New York's finest out there ensuring a peaceful occupation."hhttp:// www.litterareport.com/story/8d7d8ee069cb0cbbf816bbb65d56947e#!/page:0 more. Worth its own thread...
Monday, October 24, 2011 9:14 AM
Monday, October 24, 2011 10:38 AM
Monday, October 24, 2011 1:44 PM
Monday, October 24, 2011 1:59 PM
Quote:Sorry Frem, but I see the Oathkeepers as fringers, almost a militia cult, and a pretty paranoid one at that. JMHO.
Monday, October 24, 2011 2:06 PM
Monday, October 24, 2011 2:30 PM
Quote:"The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their Houses, and Farms, are to be pillaged and destroyed, and they consigned to a State of Wretchedness from which no human efforts will probably deliver them. The fate of unborn Millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this army" - Gen. George Washington, to his troops before the battle of Long Island Such a time is near at hand again. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this Army - and this Marine Corps, This Air Force, This Navy and the National Guard units of these sovereign states. ... In addition, we affirm that the purpose of the Second Amendment is to preserve the military power of the people so that they will, in the last resort, have effective final recourse to arms and to the God of Hosts in the face of tyranny. ..... We expect that sweeping warrantless searches of homes and vehicles, under some pretext, will be the means used to attempt to disarm the people. ..... Any attempt to apply the laws of war to American civilians, under any pretext, such as against domestic “militia” groups the government brands “domestic terrorists,” is an act of war and an act of treason. ..... Such tactics were repeated by the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto, and by the Imperial Japanese in Nanking, turning entire cities into death camps. Any such order to disarm and confine the people of an American city will be an act of war and thus an act of treason. ..... And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually affirm our oath and pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. Oath Keepers
Monday, October 24, 2011 5:51 PM
Saturday, October 29, 2011 9:42 PM
JAMERON4EVA
Saturday, October 29, 2011 10:47 PM
CANTTAKESKY
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: If this is the consensus of the country - that upholding the Constitution relegates one to "fringe" or "cult" status - then America is already lost.
Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:52 AM
Quote:One of the things that happens major political parties and major media figures indulge in naked fearmongering is that -- surprise! -- a lot of people get fearful. Really fearful. Some of them become downright paranoid, and start believing in all kinds of looming conspiracies against them. Which means you wind up with outfits like the Oath Keepers, who clearly are one of the major "Patriot" groups leading the recent surge in Patriot movement activity. You can watch Stewart Rhodes, the Oath Keepers' leader, at the recent CPAC conference being interviewed by the ever-friendly Bill Whittle and come away with the impression that, gosh, these are just folks who want to uphold the Constitution and apple pie. Paranoid, us? As with all Patriot groups and their leaders, that's the schtick when the cameras are on. When the mask comes off, it becomes quite a different picture. That's clear from reading Justine Sharrock's in-depth piece on the Oath Keepers for Mother Jones, a must-read. [Full disclosure: I am quoted in several places in this article.] As Sharrock makes clear, one of the more disturbing aspects of this group is that it has the effect of radicalizing the very people who are supposed to be upholding the law and protecting us from violent extremists:Quote:There are scores of patriot groups, but what makes Oath Keepers unique is that its core membership consists of men and women in uniform, including soldiers, police, and veterans. At regular ceremonies in every state, members reaffirm their official oaths of service, pledging to protect the Constitution—but then they go a step further, vowing to disobey "unconstitutional" orders from what they view as an increasingly tyrannical government.Moreover, recruiting from military and police veterans increases exponentially the lethal competence of these extremists. As we observed back in our first post on the Oath Keepers:Quote:This is an example of why I've called the Iraq War "the Timothy McVeigh Finishing School": Inevitably, there are going to be competent killers either joining the far right from our military ranks -- especially if they've been recruited into those beliefs either before or during their service -- or enacting far-right "lone wolf scenarios," and they are going to have the ability to wreak a great deal of havoc. ... Remember, too, that there have already been concerns raised about concerns raised then by the FBI hold true in this situation as well:Quote:Military experience—ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces—is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement. FBI reporting indicates extremist leaders have historically favored recruiting active and former military personnel for their knowledge of firearms, explosives, and tactical skills and their access to weapons and intelligence in preparation for an anticipated war against the federal government, Jews, and people of color. ... The prestige which the extremist movement bestows upon members with military experience grants them the potential for influence beyond their numbers. Most extremist groups have some members with military experience, and those with military experience often hold positions of authority within the groups to which they belong. ... Military experience—often regardless of its length or type—distinguishes one within the extremist movement. While those with military backgrounds constitute a small percentage of white supremacist extremists, FBI investigations indicate they frequently have higher profiles within the movement, including recruitment and leadership roles.Rhodes and Whittle are eager to portray the core of the Oath Keepers' creeds -- the "ten orders" they "will not obey" -- as involving merely ordinary rights that everyone naturally would stand up for, and in a way, that's true. But only deeply paranoid people would believe there is any reason to be concerned that these rights violations might be looming. It seems not to occur to Whittle to ask how many people believe the government is about to cordon off our cities and turn them into concentration camps. Evidently, because he too shares that fear. It's widespread among the Oath Keepers, as Sharrock makes clear -- and highly selective. That is, it's relegated largely to liberal Democratic presidents, because Republicans are people they can trust:Quote:Pray (who asked me to use his middle name rather than his first) and five fellow soldiers based at Fort Drum take this directive very seriously. In the belief that the government is already turning on its citizens, they are recruiting military buddies, stashing weapons, running drills, and outlining a plan of action. For years, they say, police and military have trained side by side in local anti-terrorism exercises around the nation. In September 2008, the Army began training the 3rd Infantry's 1st Brigade Combat Team to provide humanitarian aid following a domestic disaster or terror attack—and to help with crowd control and civil unrest if need be. (The ACLU has expressed concern about this deployment.) And some of Pray's comrades were guinea pigs for military-grade sonic weapons, only to see them used by Pittsburgh police against protesters last fall. Most of the men's gripes revolve around policies that began under President Bush but didn't scare them so much at the time. "Too many conservatives relied on Bush's character and didn't pay attention," founder Rhodes told me. "Only now, with Obama, do they worry and see what has been done. I trusted Bush to only go after the terrorists. But what do you think can happen down the road when they say, 'I think you are a threat to the nation?'" In Pray's estimate, it might not be long (months, perhaps a year) before President Obama finds some pretext—a pandemic, a natural disaster, a terror attack—to impose martial law, ban interstate travel, and begin detaining citizens en masse. One of his fellow Oath Keepers, a former infantryman, advised me to prepare a "bug out" bag with 39 items including gas masks, ammo, and water purification tablets, so that I'd be ready to go "when the shit hits the fan."And yes, they're closely enmeshed with the Tea Party movement now:Quote:Oath Keepers collaborates regularly with like-minded citizens groups; last Fourth of July, Rhodes dispatched speakers to administer the oath at more than 30 Tea Party rallies across America. At last fall's 9/12 march on Washington, he led a contingent of Oath Keepers from the Capitol steps down to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. Afterward, Oath Keepers cohosted a banquet with the hawkish Gathering of Eagles. This February, a member of the group organized a Florida Freedom Rally featuring Joe the Plumber and conservative singer Lloyd Marcus. (Sample lyrics: Mr. President! Your stimulus is sure to bust / it's just a socialistic scheme / The only thing it will do / is kill the American Dream.)And the paranoia knows few limits, as all kinds of conspiracy theories are encouraged:Quote:Oath Keepers is officially nonpartisan, in part to make it easier for active-duty soldiers to participate, but its rightward bent is undeniable, and liberals are viewed with suspicion. At lunch, when I questioned my tablemates about the Obama-Hitler comparisons I'd heard at the conference, I got a step-by-step tutorial on how the president's socialized medicine agenda would beget a Nazi-style regime. I learned that bringing guns to Tea Party protests was a reminder of our constitutional rights, was introduced to the notion that the founding fathers modeled their governing documents on the Bible, and debated whether being Muslim meant an inability to believe in and abide by—and thus be protected by—the Constitution. I was schooled on the treachery of the Federal Reserve and why America needs a gold standard, and at dinner one night, Nighta Davis, national organizer for the National 912 Project, explained how abortion-rights advocates are part of a eugenics program targeting Christians. http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/oath-keepers-potentially-most-lethal my opinion, too.
Quote:There are scores of patriot groups, but what makes Oath Keepers unique is that its core membership consists of men and women in uniform, including soldiers, police, and veterans. At regular ceremonies in every state, members reaffirm their official oaths of service, pledging to protect the Constitution—but then they go a step further, vowing to disobey "unconstitutional" orders from what they view as an increasingly tyrannical government.
Quote:This is an example of why I've called the Iraq War "the Timothy McVeigh Finishing School": Inevitably, there are going to be competent killers either joining the far right from our military ranks -- especially if they've been recruited into those beliefs either before or during their service -- or enacting far-right "lone wolf scenarios," and they are going to have the ability to wreak a great deal of havoc. ... Remember, too, that there have already been concerns raised about concerns raised then by the FBI hold true in this situation as well:Quote:Military experience—ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces—is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement. FBI reporting indicates extremist leaders have historically favored recruiting active and former military personnel for their knowledge of firearms, explosives, and tactical skills and their access to weapons and intelligence in preparation for an anticipated war against the federal government, Jews, and people of color. ... The prestige which the extremist movement bestows upon members with military experience grants them the potential for influence beyond their numbers. Most extremist groups have some members with military experience, and those with military experience often hold positions of authority within the groups to which they belong. ... Military experience—often regardless of its length or type—distinguishes one within the extremist movement. While those with military backgrounds constitute a small percentage of white supremacist extremists, FBI investigations indicate they frequently have higher profiles within the movement, including recruitment and leadership roles.
Quote:Military experience—ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces—is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement. FBI reporting indicates extremist leaders have historically favored recruiting active and former military personnel for their knowledge of firearms, explosives, and tactical skills and their access to weapons and intelligence in preparation for an anticipated war against the federal government, Jews, and people of color. ... The prestige which the extremist movement bestows upon members with military experience grants them the potential for influence beyond their numbers. Most extremist groups have some members with military experience, and those with military experience often hold positions of authority within the groups to which they belong. ... Military experience—often regardless of its length or type—distinguishes one within the extremist movement. While those with military backgrounds constitute a small percentage of white supremacist extremists, FBI investigations indicate they frequently have higher profiles within the movement, including recruitment and leadership roles.
Quote:Pray (who asked me to use his middle name rather than his first) and five fellow soldiers based at Fort Drum take this directive very seriously. In the belief that the government is already turning on its citizens, they are recruiting military buddies, stashing weapons, running drills, and outlining a plan of action. For years, they say, police and military have trained side by side in local anti-terrorism exercises around the nation. In September 2008, the Army began training the 3rd Infantry's 1st Brigade Combat Team to provide humanitarian aid following a domestic disaster or terror attack—and to help with crowd control and civil unrest if need be. (The ACLU has expressed concern about this deployment.) And some of Pray's comrades were guinea pigs for military-grade sonic weapons, only to see them used by Pittsburgh police against protesters last fall. Most of the men's gripes revolve around policies that began under President Bush but didn't scare them so much at the time. "Too many conservatives relied on Bush's character and didn't pay attention," founder Rhodes told me. "Only now, with Obama, do they worry and see what has been done. I trusted Bush to only go after the terrorists. But what do you think can happen down the road when they say, 'I think you are a threat to the nation?'" In Pray's estimate, it might not be long (months, perhaps a year) before President Obama finds some pretext—a pandemic, a natural disaster, a terror attack—to impose martial law, ban interstate travel, and begin detaining citizens en masse. One of his fellow Oath Keepers, a former infantryman, advised me to prepare a "bug out" bag with 39 items including gas masks, ammo, and water purification tablets, so that I'd be ready to go "when the shit hits the fan."
Quote:Oath Keepers collaborates regularly with like-minded citizens groups; last Fourth of July, Rhodes dispatched speakers to administer the oath at more than 30 Tea Party rallies across America. At last fall's 9/12 march on Washington, he led a contingent of Oath Keepers from the Capitol steps down to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. Afterward, Oath Keepers cohosted a banquet with the hawkish Gathering of Eagles. This February, a member of the group organized a Florida Freedom Rally featuring Joe the Plumber and conservative singer Lloyd Marcus. (Sample lyrics: Mr. President! Your stimulus is sure to bust / it's just a socialistic scheme / The only thing it will do / is kill the American Dream.)
Quote:Oath Keepers is officially nonpartisan, in part to make it easier for active-duty soldiers to participate, but its rightward bent is undeniable, and liberals are viewed with suspicion. At lunch, when I questioned my tablemates about the Obama-Hitler comparisons I'd heard at the conference, I got a step-by-step tutorial on how the president's socialized medicine agenda would beget a Nazi-style regime. I learned that bringing guns to Tea Party protests was a reminder of our constitutional rights, was introduced to the notion that the founding fathers modeled their governing documents on the Bible, and debated whether being Muslim meant an inability to believe in and abide by—and thus be protected by—the Constitution. I was schooled on the treachery of the Federal Reserve and why America needs a gold standard, and at dinner one night, Nighta Davis, national organizer for the National 912 Project, explained how abortion-rights advocates are part of a eugenics program targeting Christians.
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