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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Bombing for peace
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:27 AM
CANTTAKESKY
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:15 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:49 AM
BYTEMITE
Quote:Show me ONE time when any terrorist has ever done that for the folks he's trying to murder. It never happens, ever.
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:53 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote:Show me ONE time when any terrorist has ever done that for the folks he's trying to murder. It never happens, ever. No one's born a terrorist. Who's to say the utter futility of trying to save people around them didn't drive some of them to this?
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:20 PM
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:40 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: And I don't buy their claims posted, at face value, that x number of people were killed for each targeted individual.
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:51 PM
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 1:39 PM
Quote:But to say one is so fed up at seeing innocents die, they then sign up to kill even more innocents ? Sorry, not buying it.
Quote:And you act as if collateral damage has never occurred in war before the middle east.
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:05 PM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:Originally posted by canttakesky: ...is like fucking for virginity. This is how people see us in the countries where we go in and kill civilians.
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:08 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: They get reported on BBC World and Al Jazeera, but there's no outrage.
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:21 PM
DREAMTROVE
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:24 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by canttakesky: ...is like fucking for virginity. This is how people see us in the countries where we go in and kill civilians. Interesting that apparently no one sees the other folks who pretty much daily are killing civilians. Never see complaints about the folks who are bombing Shia pilgrims in Iraq, or schools in Afghanistan, or markets in Pakistan provinces where folks oppose the Taliban. They get reported on BBC World and Al Jazeera, but there's no outrage.
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:30 PM
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: rap, Many of the people we call terrorists help people all the time, including those of countries they are trying to overthrow.. We know hezbollah does this, the taliban do it, and the people we call al qaeda, the mujahideen do it. It's possible you would say "these people are not terrorists" and i might agree, but at some point you have to decided where that line is, and if you want to hold to your claim that terrorists never help people, bear that in mind when you choose your definiton. I know that obama's new definition includes people who help people. Choose a definition of terrorist, but one consistent with reality.
Tuesday, January 10, 2012 6:36 PM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:36 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: For the 9,584th time, we're NOT targeting civilians.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:28 AM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:05 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Then the only other alternative is to give up,
Quote:YOUR solution is to never lift a finger to help, anyone, anywhere, at all.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:11 AM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:28 AM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:29 AM
Quote:Some see it as a sign of weakness, and an all access pass to do MORE of what they want
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:42 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote:Some see it as a sign of weakness, and an all access pass to do MORE of what they want Absolutely. They're called "Americans."
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:47 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: 2) Russia won that war, and Hitler killed himself. Not only did Hitler break alliance with Russia against all common sense, but the paranoid idiot tried to attack St. Petersburg in WINTER. He deserved to lose.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 8:05 AM
CAVETROLL
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: I would also be more assuaged if peace keeping missions didn't so often have economic incentives. Going in to help people out is fine, but going in with only lip-service to help while the real intention is to take advantage of the situation is awful. I also question whether the "can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs" adage applies to people in foreign nations.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 8:13 AM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 8:14 AM
Quote:I'd like to point out another false dichotomy. Your "humanitarian relief" will be viewed by people with a beef against the recipients as taking sides in their little fight. America will become the enemy of another people because we helped their enemies.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 8:35 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Eh, okay, fair enough. Though I still think arguably the Nazis broke themselves in the Russia winterscape.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:09 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:Many of the people we call terrorists help people all the time, including those of countries they are trying to overthrow.. We know hezbollah does this, the taliban do it, and the people we call al qaeda, the mujahideen do it.
Quote: There's plenty to be outraged about on every side, I just see the shades of grey. All sides in war are deplorable. When we win a war, we get to write the history.
Quote: He used to boast about all the "stuff" he had done in Iraq and about how easy it was for an American soldier to get away with almost anything in a war. Sergeant Calvin Gibbs, 25, a native of the US state of Montana, was the highest-ranking member of a group of five soldiers that he allegedly dubbed the "kill team." Gibbs had been in Iraq long enough to know how to impress his fellow soldiers. All you have to do, he told them in December, is "toss a grenade" and you'll have killed a bunch of Afghans. The kill team apparently tossed its first grenade in January. ..... If the claims made in the indictment are true, the crimes committed by the kill team went beyond the killing of Afghan civilians. In fact, the men allegedly devised "scenarios" for the killings, a kind of script that included plausible pretexts for the murders. Gibbs is believed to have been the planner, while the younger team members did the shooting. The men apparently treated killing as a sport. They allegedly fired at their victims with gusto, collecting trophies that included finger and toe bones, and even a tooth. When the men of the kill team allegedly attacked their first victim, Gul Mudin, on Jan. 15, it was as if they were shooting at clay pigeons. When they saw Mudin on the edge of a poppy field, Gibbs allegedly ordered one of the soldiers to throw a grenade over the wall and then ordered a younger soldier to open fire. But that was only the beginning. On Feb. 22, Gibbs allegedly shot Marach Agha during a patrol and then placed a Kalashnikov next to the body to make it look like self-defense. More than two months later, on May 2, the team apparently shot its last victim, Mullah Adahdad. But how much did commanding officers know? What did the army do to investigate the murders? Or did it actually try to sweep the crimes under the table? The father of Adam Winfield, one of the five main suspects, claims that he warned the military leadership months ago. Of course, the Kandahar case also raises the question of what we really know about the true extent of crimes in wartime, about all the misdeeds that are never reported and all the perpetrators who are never brought to trial. An esprit de corps is taking hold once again. A number of soldiers are already denying that murders were even committed in Afghanistan, insisting that they were merely acts of self-defense. Jeremy Morlock, the youngest member of Gibbs' team and the main witness for the prosecution, also appears to be reconsidering his testimony. His attorney, Michael Waddington, argues that Morlock's statements should be disallowed because he was allegedly under the influence of prescription drugs when he made them. According to Gibbs' attorney, his client insists that all of the killings were "appropriate engagements." http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,717127-2,00.html
Quote: Although the video's existence has been known since shortly after the July 12, 2007, attack, all attempts to make it public under the Freedom of Information Act have been rebuffed by the U.S. defence department. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1263822/WikiLeaks-video-Reuters-journalists-civilians-gunned-US-pilots.html
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:36 PM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:10 PM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:20 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Those ' civilians ' were never identified as such. They looked every bit like a group of plain clothed insurgents.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:34 PM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:38 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:46 PM
Quote:And Byte, sorry, but my position stands. I'm not claiming they were justified, but it clearly is understandable as to what happened. And they most certainly weren't targeting 'civilians', just looking to target practice. They saw , in the fog of war, what they thought were hostiles.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:49 PM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:53 PM
Quote: Do you think we should have only fought Japan and not fought with England and the USSR in Europe?
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:55 PM
Quote: Riona, heck, we weren't "staying out" of Europe even BEFORE Pearl Harbor. We'd also been at war with Japan for two years already, and were negotiating a peace treaty. We actually sunk a Japanese submarine two weeks before Pearl Harbor happened.
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 5:24 PM
Wednesday, January 11, 2012 5:26 PM
Quote: Where did YOU learn your WW2 history ? We were sending supplies to the British, and such, but we weren't IN the war in Europe.
Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:01 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote: Where did YOU learn your WW2 history ? We were sending supplies to the British, and such, but we weren't IN the war in Europe. You don't think the Germans didn't see that as contributing to the war efforts? Like I said, U-boats were hitting our convoys 'cause of it, and we were sending pilots over to help out the RAF, even before Pearl Harbor. Yes, we were very much in that war before Pearl Harbor, it just wasn't official.
Thursday, January 12, 2012 3:22 PM
Quote: WASHINGTON – The Obama administration denied any role in Wednesday's killing of an Iranian nuclear scientist, the latest in a series of events that have exacerbated tensions with Iran. The assassination of Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan was the latest in a year that has already seen new U.S. economic sanctions, threats to bar American ships from the Persian Gulf, an Iranian death sentence to a jailed U.S. citizen and an escalation in Tehran's uranium enrichment program. January 11, 2012: In this photo provided by the semi-official Fars News Agency, people gather around a car as it is removed by a mobile crane in Tehran, Iran. Iranian reports said two assailants on a motorcycle attached a magnetic bomb to Roshan's car of, killing him and his driver. Roshan was a chemistry expert and director of the Natanz uranium enrichment facility in central Iran, and the slaying suggested a widening covert effort to set back the Islamic republic's atomic program. But US officials said they had nothing to do with it. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/01/11/report-bomb-kills-iran-university-professor/#ixzz1jITX273z
Thursday, January 12, 2012 4:50 PM
Quote:From December 1937 events such as the Japanese attack on the USS Panay and the Nanking Massacre swung public opinion in the West sharply against Japan and increased their fear of Japanese expansion, which prompted the United States, the United Kingdom, and France to provide loan assistance for war supply contracts to the Republic of China. Furthermore, Australia prevented a Japanese government-owned company from taking over an iron mine in Australia, and banned iron ore exports in 1938.[25] Japan retaliated by invading and occupying French Indochina (present-day Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia) in 1940, and successfully blockaded China from the import of arms, fuel and 10,000 tons/month of materials supplied by the Allies through the Haiphong-Yunnan Fou railway line. Flying Tigers Bite Back.ogg US Air Forces video:Flying Tigers Bite Back In mid-1941, the United States government financed the creation of the American Volunteer Group (AVG), or Flying Tigers, to replace the withdrawal of Soviet volunteers and aircraft. Led by Claire Lee Chennault, their early combat success of 300 kills against a loss of 12 of their shark painted P-40 fighters earned them wide recognition at the time when Allies were suffering heavy losses, and soon afterwards their dogfighting tactics would be adopted by the United States Army Air Forces. Furthermore, to pressure the Japanese to end all hostilities in China, the United States, Britain, and the Dutch East Indies began oil and/or steel embargos against Japan. The loss of oil imports made it impossible for Japan to continue operations in China. This set the stage for Japan to launch a series of military attacks against the Allies when the Imperial Japanese Navy raided Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941.
Quote:Five bombs had Japanese "friendship" medals wired to them—medals awarded by the Japanese government to U.S. servicemen before the war.
Friday, January 13, 2012 7:50 AM
Quote:The release of the video from Baghdad also comes shortly after the US military admitted that its special forces attempted to cover up the killings of three Afghan women in a raid in February by digging the bullets out of their bodies. The newly released video of the Baghdad attacks was recorded on one of two Apache helicopters hunting for insurgents on 12 July 2007. Among the dead were a 22-year-old Reuters photographer, Namir Noor-Eldeen, and his driver, Saeed Chmagh, 40. The Pentagon blocked an attempt by Reuters to obtain the video through a freedom of information request. Wikileaks director Julian Assange said his organisation had to break through encryption by the military to view it. One of the helicopter crew is then heard saying that one of the group is shooting. But the video shows there is no shooting or even pointing of weapons. The men are standing around, apparently unperturbed. The lead helicopter, using the moniker Crazyhorse, opens fire. "Hahaha. I hit 'em," shouts one of the American crew. Another responds a little later: "Oh yeah, look at those dead bastards." One of the men on the ground, believed to be Chmagh, is seen wounded and trying to crawl to safety. One of the helicopter crew is heard wishing for the man to reach for a gun, even though there is none visible nearby, so he has the pretext for opening fire: "All you gotta do is pick up a weapon." A van draws up next to the wounded man and Iraqis climb out. They are unarmed and start to carry the victim to the vehicle in what would appear to be an attempt to get him to hospital. One of the helicopters opens fire with armour-piercing shells. "Look at that. Right through the windshield," says one of the crew. Another responds with a laugh. Sitting behind the windscreen were two children who were wounded. After ground forces arrive and the children are discovered, the American air crew blame the Iraqis. "Well it's their fault for bringing kids in to a battle," says one. "That's right," says another. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack bullshit that they were responding to an attack of any kind. Anyone with brains can see the truth, which is all that needs saying. And gee, what about those Afghan women? Oh, and look at that; Iraqis tried to help people wounded by our soldiers...I guess they never do THAT, either. Then there's:Quote:The soldier accused of being the ringleader of a rogue Army unit that killed three Afghan civilians last year for sport, crimes that angered Afghan leaders and villagers and rattled high levels of the American military, was found guilty of all charges on Thursday. The soldier, Staff Sgt. Calvin Gibbs, 26, of Billings, Mont., was found guilty of three counts of murder, of conspiring to commit murder and several other charges, including assaulting a fellow soldier and taking fingers and a tooth from the dead. He was sentenced to life in prison but could be eligible for parole in less than 10 years. ..... All told, five soldiers were charged with killing civilians in three separate episodes early last year. Soldiers repeatedly described Sergeant Gibbs as devising “scenarios” in which the unit would fake combat situations by detonating grenades or planting weapons near their victims. They said he even supplied “drop weapons” and grenades to make the victims appear armed. Some soldiers took pictures posing with the dead and took body parts as trophies. Sergeant Gibbs is accused of snipping fingers from victims and later using them to intimidate another soldier. ..... One of the principal witnesses against him, Pfc. Jeremy Morlock, pleaded guilty to all three killings in March and faces a 24-year sentence. Specialist Adam C. Winfield pleaded guilty in August to manslaughter in one of the killings and faces three years in prison. Pfc. Andrew Holmes pleaded guilty to one of the killings in September. Many of the defendants, as well as six others charged in the unit, pleaded guilty to other charges, including smoking hashish and assaulting a soldier who eventually led Army investigators to discover the killings. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/us/calvin-gibbs-convicted-of-killing-civilians-in-afghanistan.html I guess admitting guilt or being found guilty in a military court doesn't count. Oh, and I guess the Pentagon apologizing doesn't count either:Quote:The Pentagon tonight apologised after shocking new details emerged of how American soldiers formed a 'death squad' to randomly murder Afghan civilians and mutilate their corpses. An investigation by Rolling Stone magazine details how senior officers failed to stop troops killing Afghans and keeping their body parts as trophies. In one horrific episode, the magazine claims troops threw a grenade at an innocent Afghan boy before chopping off his finger and later using it as 'gambling chip' in a game of cards. The disturbing detail included in the dossier accuses American troops of a new level of depravity and is likely to be a public relations disaster for the military. The U.S. Army says the photos of American soldiers posing with dead Afghans are 'in striking contrast' to its standards and values - apologising for any distress caused by the images. ..... The investigation revealed: Troops shot dead civilians and tried to cover their tracks; U.S. soldiers hacked off part of a dead man's skull; Soldiers cheered as they filmed a U.S. airstrike blowing up two Afghan civilians; A video showed two Afghans on a motorcycle being gunned down. ..... The men joked for weeks about killing ‘savages’ before finally murdering a boy of around 15 in a farming village, their first kill. ..... In another incident on a night in January 2010 the platoon was driving near their forward operating base and spotted a human heat signature on the roadside through their thermal imaging equipment. ..... ‘Basically, what we did was a desperate search to justify killing this guy,’ a private named Justin Stoner Stoner told investigators. ‘But in reality he was just some old, deaf, retarded guy. We basically executed this man.’ ..... The soldiers felt invincible and emboldened by the lack of policing by their superiors. It also details a serious of disturbing videos and pictures of the victims taken by the men - one shows a hand with a missing finger, another depicts a severed head on a stick and others show blown up legs. In two cases soldiers pose over the bodies of their victims as if they are hunting trophies. ..... Internal records show the ‘Kill team’ was ‘operating out in the open, in ‘plain view of the rest of the company’. ‘Far from being clandestine, as the Pentagon has implied, the murders of civilians were common knowledge among the unit and understood to be illegal by "pretty much the whole platoon",' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370758/Shocking-video-shows-U-S-troops-cheering-airstrike-blows-Afghan-civilians.html, we're the good guys, you betcha. Note most of it comes from the UK news source; as usual, we get more complete news from other countries than from our own news. I learned that long ago.
Quote:The soldier accused of being the ringleader of a rogue Army unit that killed three Afghan civilians last year for sport, crimes that angered Afghan leaders and villagers and rattled high levels of the American military, was found guilty of all charges on Thursday. The soldier, Staff Sgt. Calvin Gibbs, 26, of Billings, Mont., was found guilty of three counts of murder, of conspiring to commit murder and several other charges, including assaulting a fellow soldier and taking fingers and a tooth from the dead. He was sentenced to life in prison but could be eligible for parole in less than 10 years. ..... All told, five soldiers were charged with killing civilians in three separate episodes early last year. Soldiers repeatedly described Sergeant Gibbs as devising “scenarios” in which the unit would fake combat situations by detonating grenades or planting weapons near their victims. They said he even supplied “drop weapons” and grenades to make the victims appear armed. Some soldiers took pictures posing with the dead and took body parts as trophies. Sergeant Gibbs is accused of snipping fingers from victims and later using them to intimidate another soldier. ..... One of the principal witnesses against him, Pfc. Jeremy Morlock, pleaded guilty to all three killings in March and faces a 24-year sentence. Specialist Adam C. Winfield pleaded guilty in August to manslaughter in one of the killings and faces three years in prison. Pfc. Andrew Holmes pleaded guilty to one of the killings in September. Many of the defendants, as well as six others charged in the unit, pleaded guilty to other charges, including smoking hashish and assaulting a soldier who eventually led Army investigators to discover the killings. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/us/calvin-gibbs-convicted-of-killing-civilians-in-afghanistan.html I guess admitting guilt or being found guilty in a military court doesn't count. Oh, and I guess the Pentagon apologizing doesn't count either:Quote:The Pentagon tonight apologised after shocking new details emerged of how American soldiers formed a 'death squad' to randomly murder Afghan civilians and mutilate their corpses. An investigation by Rolling Stone magazine details how senior officers failed to stop troops killing Afghans and keeping their body parts as trophies. In one horrific episode, the magazine claims troops threw a grenade at an innocent Afghan boy before chopping off his finger and later using it as 'gambling chip' in a game of cards. The disturbing detail included in the dossier accuses American troops of a new level of depravity and is likely to be a public relations disaster for the military. The U.S. Army says the photos of American soldiers posing with dead Afghans are 'in striking contrast' to its standards and values - apologising for any distress caused by the images. ..... The investigation revealed: Troops shot dead civilians and tried to cover their tracks; U.S. soldiers hacked off part of a dead man's skull; Soldiers cheered as they filmed a U.S. airstrike blowing up two Afghan civilians; A video showed two Afghans on a motorcycle being gunned down. ..... The men joked for weeks about killing ‘savages’ before finally murdering a boy of around 15 in a farming village, their first kill. ..... In another incident on a night in January 2010 the platoon was driving near their forward operating base and spotted a human heat signature on the roadside through their thermal imaging equipment. ..... ‘Basically, what we did was a desperate search to justify killing this guy,’ a private named Justin Stoner Stoner told investigators. ‘But in reality he was just some old, deaf, retarded guy. We basically executed this man.’ ..... The soldiers felt invincible and emboldened by the lack of policing by their superiors. It also details a serious of disturbing videos and pictures of the victims taken by the men - one shows a hand with a missing finger, another depicts a severed head on a stick and others show blown up legs. In two cases soldiers pose over the bodies of their victims as if they are hunting trophies. ..... Internal records show the ‘Kill team’ was ‘operating out in the open, in ‘plain view of the rest of the company’. ‘Far from being clandestine, as the Pentagon has implied, the murders of civilians were common knowledge among the unit and understood to be illegal by "pretty much the whole platoon",' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370758/Shocking-video-shows-U-S-troops-cheering-airstrike-blows-Afghan-civilians.html, we're the good guys, you betcha. Note most of it comes from the UK news source; as usual, we get more complete news from other countries than from our own news. I learned that long ago.
Quote:The Pentagon tonight apologised after shocking new details emerged of how American soldiers formed a 'death squad' to randomly murder Afghan civilians and mutilate their corpses. An investigation by Rolling Stone magazine details how senior officers failed to stop troops killing Afghans and keeping their body parts as trophies. In one horrific episode, the magazine claims troops threw a grenade at an innocent Afghan boy before chopping off his finger and later using it as 'gambling chip' in a game of cards. The disturbing detail included in the dossier accuses American troops of a new level of depravity and is likely to be a public relations disaster for the military. The U.S. Army says the photos of American soldiers posing with dead Afghans are 'in striking contrast' to its standards and values - apologising for any distress caused by the images. ..... The investigation revealed: Troops shot dead civilians and tried to cover their tracks; U.S. soldiers hacked off part of a dead man's skull; Soldiers cheered as they filmed a U.S. airstrike blowing up two Afghan civilians; A video showed two Afghans on a motorcycle being gunned down. ..... The men joked for weeks about killing ‘savages’ before finally murdering a boy of around 15 in a farming village, their first kill. ..... In another incident on a night in January 2010 the platoon was driving near their forward operating base and spotted a human heat signature on the roadside through their thermal imaging equipment. ..... ‘Basically, what we did was a desperate search to justify killing this guy,’ a private named Justin Stoner Stoner told investigators. ‘But in reality he was just some old, deaf, retarded guy. We basically executed this man.’ ..... The soldiers felt invincible and emboldened by the lack of policing by their superiors. It also details a serious of disturbing videos and pictures of the victims taken by the men - one shows a hand with a missing finger, another depicts a severed head on a stick and others show blown up legs. In two cases soldiers pose over the bodies of their victims as if they are hunting trophies. ..... Internal records show the ‘Kill team’ was ‘operating out in the open, in ‘plain view of the rest of the company’. ‘Far from being clandestine, as the Pentagon has implied, the murders of civilians were common knowledge among the unit and understood to be illegal by "pretty much the whole platoon",' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370758/Shocking-video-shows-U-S-troops-cheering-airstrike-blows-Afghan-civilians.html, we're the good guys, you betcha. Note most of it comes from the UK news source; as usual, we get more complete news from other countries than from our own news. I learned that long ago.
Friday, January 13, 2012 8:28 AM
Friday, January 13, 2012 9:21 AM
Friday, January 13, 2012 1:01 PM
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