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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
U.S. Marines urinate on Taliban corpses (not PN)
Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:36 PM
OLDENGLANDDRY
Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:48 PM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:19 PM
BYTEMITE
Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:43 PM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: Yes I saw that on the news. I wonder whether pissing on them is considered worse than killing them.
Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:46 PM
Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:56 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:06 PM
Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:10 PM
Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:13 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: I think its more about these soldiers not being the brightest sparks in the universe.
Thursday, January 12, 2012 3:53 PM
HERO
Thursday, January 12, 2012 4:14 PM
DREAMTROVE
Quote:The guys who were trying to kill them!
Thursday, January 12, 2012 4:30 PM
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: Quote:The guys who were trying to kill them! We have any proof of that? Maybe it was a little girl in a yellow dress. We're pretty fucked up at this point.
Friday, January 13, 2012 3:39 AM
JONGSSTRAW
Friday, January 13, 2012 3:44 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Missing the girl in the yellow dress reference. Sorry.
Friday, January 13, 2012 5:44 AM
CAVETROLL
Friday, January 13, 2012 5:56 AM
Friday, January 13, 2012 6:24 AM
PIZMOBEACH
... fully loaded, safety off...
Friday, January 13, 2012 6:28 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Friday, January 13, 2012 8:45 AM
STORYMARK
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: They should be punished for videoing themselves, but not for the act.
Friday, January 13, 2012 9:02 AM
Friday, January 13, 2012 9:06 AM
Quote:It is believed that contact with Europeans widened the practice of scalping among Native Americans, since some Euro-American governments encouraged the practice among their Native American allies during times of war. For example, in the American Revolutionary War, Henry Hamilton, the British Lieutenant-Governor of Canada, was known by American Patriots as the "hair-buyer general" because it was believed he encouraged and paid his Native American allies to scalp American settlers. When Hamilton was captured in the war by the Americans, he was treated as a war criminal instead of a prisoner of war because of this. However, both Native Americans and American frontiersmen frequently scalped their victims in this era. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070613064727AATvNge AMERICANS did it too, not just the Indians. On that point:Quote:As monuments go, the one depicting Colonial heroine Hannah Dustin looks like any other, with one crucial exception: In her left hand she holds a fistful of human scalps. The inscription underneath tells of her 1697 capture in an Indian raid, and how she slew her captors as they slept - 10 women and children. Later she returned for their scalps, having remembered they could fetch a bounty. The idea of a settler scalping Indians might seem like a historical quirk. Most Americans assume that if there was any scalping going on in Colonial times, the Indians were doing it, not the English. But the truth, it turns out, is more complex. In an era where Indian-nicknamed teams are under fire and even the meaning of Thanksgiving is being re-evaluated by Native Americans, the very word "scalp" has become culturally loaded - and the origins of the practice increasingly controversial. If one thing is certain, however, it's that Hannah Dustin was no fluke. " Americans certainly scalped Indians during the Revolution and after," says Colin Calloway, who teaches history at Dartmouth College. "They also stripped Indian corpses of skin." Then in 1990, the federal government passed the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which mandated the return of sacred Indian artifacts and of remains. As museums combed through their collections, they found scalps that were clearly Indian. Some even had documentation identifying the scalp-takers as colonists. Historical records confirm that Colonial authorities offered a bounty on Indian scalps. Hannah Dustin, for example, collected a monetary reward and a pewter tankard. In Salem, redeemed scalps were hung along the walls of the town courthouse, in full view of the public, until the building was torn down in 1785. http://www.hawthorneinsalem.org/ScholarsForum/MMD2263.html we're not the "good guys" where that's concerned, either. Re: Your question about why they took pictures and videoed what they did is explained in one of the links I posted in another thread. It talks about Quote:disturbing videos and pictures of the victims taken by the men - one shows a hand with a missing finger, another depicts a severed head on a stick and others show blown up legs. In two cases soldiers pose over the bodies of their victims as if they are hunting trophies. The men also made videos including one which was filmed on Sept 12, 2009. It shows infra-red camera footage of two Afghans putting what could have been an improvised explosive device in the ground ahead of the soldiers. Regardless of whether or not it is an IED, filming at such a time is a clear breach of Army rules. They also edited it down, added a soundtrack and gave it a chilling name - ‘Death Zone’. In a further breach of regulations the soldiers videoed themselves in combat in Afghanistan and passed around the footage to each other on USB sticks. Rolling Stone has for the first time published the videos which were supposedly passed around by the men of 5th Stryker Combat Brigade as they carried out their executions in Kandahar province. In the first clip the men can clearly be heard joking: ‘They’re going to f****** die’ and ‘You don’t f*** with us’. As the airstrike starts so does the song ‘En Vie’ by Apocalyptica, a cello rock band from Helsinki. One of the men is killed instantly but the second runs off and is caught by another volley of explosions - as the men whoop and cheer ‘F*** yeah!’ A title card called ‘Aftermath’ comes on screen followed by close-up colour images of the men’s bloodied bodies with horrific close-ups on their injuries. The credits then roll explaining how ‘Shadow PLT’ was behind the picture and that a Sergeant Michael Schweitzer did the editing. According to Rolling Stone the men would pass the gruesome videos around on USB sticks and hard drives. They would file them on their personal computers alongside clips of TV shows, Ultimate Fighting fights and films such as Iron Man 2. A second video released by the magazine shows a separate incident in which two Afghans on a motorcycle are gunned down. The video was taken on patrol with a helmet-mounted camera; at one point, the soldier shooting the images can be heard boasting: "I got it all on camera". http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370758/Shocking-video-shows-U-S-troops-cheering-airstrike-blows-Afghan-civilians.html#ixzz1jMoLVwe1 In other words, they did it for their own enjoyment. The Pentagon went to great lengths to hid the pictures and videos, but they came out despite that. I do wholeheartedly agree with your statement thatQuote:If you train people to feel ok, even good about killing, then are they likely to have had to cross off a few other taboos along the way.Which is in part why our soldiers have done terrible things in war and I see little difference between what our enemies have done and what SOME of our soldiers have done, so don't understand how people like Rap can keep claiming what our guys did is different and therefore acceptable. Well, yes, I DO understand, but it's just a sign of his sickness, not a legitimate argument.
Quote:As monuments go, the one depicting Colonial heroine Hannah Dustin looks like any other, with one crucial exception: In her left hand she holds a fistful of human scalps. The inscription underneath tells of her 1697 capture in an Indian raid, and how she slew her captors as they slept - 10 women and children. Later she returned for their scalps, having remembered they could fetch a bounty. The idea of a settler scalping Indians might seem like a historical quirk. Most Americans assume that if there was any scalping going on in Colonial times, the Indians were doing it, not the English. But the truth, it turns out, is more complex. In an era where Indian-nicknamed teams are under fire and even the meaning of Thanksgiving is being re-evaluated by Native Americans, the very word "scalp" has become culturally loaded - and the origins of the practice increasingly controversial. If one thing is certain, however, it's that Hannah Dustin was no fluke. " Americans certainly scalped Indians during the Revolution and after," says Colin Calloway, who teaches history at Dartmouth College. "They also stripped Indian corpses of skin." Then in 1990, the federal government passed the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which mandated the return of sacred Indian artifacts and of remains. As museums combed through their collections, they found scalps that were clearly Indian. Some even had documentation identifying the scalp-takers as colonists. Historical records confirm that Colonial authorities offered a bounty on Indian scalps. Hannah Dustin, for example, collected a monetary reward and a pewter tankard. In Salem, redeemed scalps were hung along the walls of the town courthouse, in full view of the public, until the building was torn down in 1785. http://www.hawthorneinsalem.org/ScholarsForum/MMD2263.html we're not the "good guys" where that's concerned, either. Re: Your question about why they took pictures and videoed what they did is explained in one of the links I posted in another thread. It talks about Quote:disturbing videos and pictures of the victims taken by the men - one shows a hand with a missing finger, another depicts a severed head on a stick and others show blown up legs. In two cases soldiers pose over the bodies of their victims as if they are hunting trophies. The men also made videos including one which was filmed on Sept 12, 2009. It shows infra-red camera footage of two Afghans putting what could have been an improvised explosive device in the ground ahead of the soldiers. Regardless of whether or not it is an IED, filming at such a time is a clear breach of Army rules. They also edited it down, added a soundtrack and gave it a chilling name - ‘Death Zone’. In a further breach of regulations the soldiers videoed themselves in combat in Afghanistan and passed around the footage to each other on USB sticks. Rolling Stone has for the first time published the videos which were supposedly passed around by the men of 5th Stryker Combat Brigade as they carried out their executions in Kandahar province. In the first clip the men can clearly be heard joking: ‘They’re going to f****** die’ and ‘You don’t f*** with us’. As the airstrike starts so does the song ‘En Vie’ by Apocalyptica, a cello rock band from Helsinki. One of the men is killed instantly but the second runs off and is caught by another volley of explosions - as the men whoop and cheer ‘F*** yeah!’ A title card called ‘Aftermath’ comes on screen followed by close-up colour images of the men’s bloodied bodies with horrific close-ups on their injuries. The credits then roll explaining how ‘Shadow PLT’ was behind the picture and that a Sergeant Michael Schweitzer did the editing. According to Rolling Stone the men would pass the gruesome videos around on USB sticks and hard drives. They would file them on their personal computers alongside clips of TV shows, Ultimate Fighting fights and films such as Iron Man 2. A second video released by the magazine shows a separate incident in which two Afghans on a motorcycle are gunned down. The video was taken on patrol with a helmet-mounted camera; at one point, the soldier shooting the images can be heard boasting: "I got it all on camera". http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370758/Shocking-video-shows-U-S-troops-cheering-airstrike-blows-Afghan-civilians.html#ixzz1jMoLVwe1 In other words, they did it for their own enjoyment. The Pentagon went to great lengths to hid the pictures and videos, but they came out despite that. I do wholeheartedly agree with your statement thatQuote:If you train people to feel ok, even good about killing, then are they likely to have had to cross off a few other taboos along the way.Which is in part why our soldiers have done terrible things in war and I see little difference between what our enemies have done and what SOME of our soldiers have done, so don't understand how people like Rap can keep claiming what our guys did is different and therefore acceptable. Well, yes, I DO understand, but it's just a sign of his sickness, not a legitimate argument.
Quote:disturbing videos and pictures of the victims taken by the men - one shows a hand with a missing finger, another depicts a severed head on a stick and others show blown up legs. In two cases soldiers pose over the bodies of their victims as if they are hunting trophies. The men also made videos including one which was filmed on Sept 12, 2009. It shows infra-red camera footage of two Afghans putting what could have been an improvised explosive device in the ground ahead of the soldiers. Regardless of whether or not it is an IED, filming at such a time is a clear breach of Army rules. They also edited it down, added a soundtrack and gave it a chilling name - ‘Death Zone’. In a further breach of regulations the soldiers videoed themselves in combat in Afghanistan and passed around the footage to each other on USB sticks. Rolling Stone has for the first time published the videos which were supposedly passed around by the men of 5th Stryker Combat Brigade as they carried out their executions in Kandahar province. In the first clip the men can clearly be heard joking: ‘They’re going to f****** die’ and ‘You don’t f*** with us’. As the airstrike starts so does the song ‘En Vie’ by Apocalyptica, a cello rock band from Helsinki. One of the men is killed instantly but the second runs off and is caught by another volley of explosions - as the men whoop and cheer ‘F*** yeah!’ A title card called ‘Aftermath’ comes on screen followed by close-up colour images of the men’s bloodied bodies with horrific close-ups on their injuries. The credits then roll explaining how ‘Shadow PLT’ was behind the picture and that a Sergeant Michael Schweitzer did the editing. According to Rolling Stone the men would pass the gruesome videos around on USB sticks and hard drives. They would file them on their personal computers alongside clips of TV shows, Ultimate Fighting fights and films such as Iron Man 2. A second video released by the magazine shows a separate incident in which two Afghans on a motorcycle are gunned down. The video was taken on patrol with a helmet-mounted camera; at one point, the soldier shooting the images can be heard boasting: "I got it all on camera". http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370758/Shocking-video-shows-U-S-troops-cheering-airstrike-blows-Afghan-civilians.html#ixzz1jMoLVwe1
Quote:If you train people to feel ok, even good about killing, then are they likely to have had to cross off a few other taboos along the way.
Friday, January 13, 2012 9:16 AM
Friday, January 13, 2012 9:27 AM
Friday, January 13, 2012 10:08 AM
Quote:I don't really see this as anything more than an incident deserving of unit discipline
Friday, January 13, 2012 10:11 AM
Friday, January 13, 2012 11:24 AM
HKCAVALIER
Friday, January 13, 2012 11:25 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Uh, Pizmo, the taking of scalps wasn't an idea the Native Americans came up with, just to clarify. It was around since the time of the Visigoths, if not earlier. And Native Americans, while they pacticed scalping of their enemies previously, had the practice widely encouraged by the Europeans: "It is believed that contact with Europeans widened the practice of scalping among Native Americans, since some Euro-American governments encouraged the practice among their Native American allies during times of war. For example, in the American Revolutionary War, Henry Hamilton, the British Lieutenant-Governor of Canada, was known by American Patriots as the "hair-buyer general" because it was believed he encouraged and paid his Native American allies to scalp American settlers. When Hamilton was captured in the war by the Americans, he was treated as a war criminal instead of a prisoner of war because of this. However, both Native Americans and American frontiersmen frequently scalped their victims in this era. "
Friday, January 13, 2012 11:28 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: I know, Byte, it's the lack of condemnation of the disgusting acts, legal or otherwise, which I found surprising. In my opinion, the pertinent pointis that the act itself should be condemned for exactly what it is: Barbariasm.
Friday, January 13, 2012 11:32 AM
Friday, January 13, 2012 12:16 PM
Quote: I did not know that Europeans did that
Friday, January 13, 2012 12:56 PM
Friday, January 13, 2012 2:35 PM
Quote:Originally posted by CaveTroll:death God doesn't take sides in war. And wartime propaganda always portrays our side and our allies as the good guys. It has to. People will not support bad guys. If you dig around, and not very deep, you'll find atrocities committed by all participants in WW2. I'm not even talking about indiscriminate bombing of cities, which was accepted practice in WW2. Everybody committed them. They happen. When you put people under extremes of stress they will act in a way that violates societal norms. I've already stated that this is not an atrocity. It is absolutely out of societal norms. The only way to stop these incidents from happening is to stop war.
Friday, January 13, 2012 3:54 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Niki You can't believe the lack of condemnation, and I can't believe this story has been hyper actively blown unbelievably out of proportion. Did the Marines do wrong ? Yep. Was it stupid and juvenile ? Yep. But guess what... it's war. I GET why they did it, even if I don't approve. But in the scope of all that's gone on over there, not that big a deal. Really.
Friday, January 13, 2012 3:58 PM
Quote:Originally posted by CaveTroll: A dishonorable discharge is basically the equivalent of a felony. Do you think these men deserve to have their whole life trashed because of one incidence of stupidity? Let's face facts. This was disrespectful, but not injurious in any way. The dead are beyond caring.
Quote: Unit punishments can extend up to a year. You can be assigned a year of extra duty, loss of rank, loss of pay, loss of privileges. More than sufficient. So much so that beyond a certain point, a serviceman or woman would be considered not eligible for combat duty if they were under and extreme level of punishment. God doesn't take sides in war. And wartime propaganda always portrays our side and our allies as the good guys. It has to. People will not support bad guys.
Quote: If you dig around, and not very deep, you'll find atrocities committed by all participants in WW2. I'm not even talking about indiscriminate bombing of cities, which was accepted practice in WW2. Everybody committed them. They happen. When you put people under extremes of stress they will act in a way that violates societal norms. I've already stated that this is not an atrocity. It is absolutely out of societal norms. The only way to stop these incidents from happening is to stop war.
Friday, January 13, 2012 4:06 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: This behavior shows that our fighters are really no different than theirs. We pretend we're the "good guys" and they're pure evil, but time and again we show that our guys are just as capable of evil.
Friday, January 13, 2012 4:11 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: This is nothing compared to what they do to our guys, and innocent civilians. We are the good guys,and they are pure evil. Never forget that.
Friday, January 13, 2012 4:27 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: This behavior shows that our fighters are really no different than theirs. We pretend we're the "good guys" and they're pure evil, but time and again we show that our guys are just as capable of evil.
Quote: We are the good guys,and they are pure evil. Never forget that.
Friday, January 13, 2012 5:03 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: You have an interesting idea of "good", then, if you think what these guys did is "good".
Friday, January 13, 2012 7:40 PM
FREMDFIRMA
Quote:Originally posted by HKCavalier: I think it goes to the double-think we have about war. We train these kids to be brutal, strip all normal human squeamishness and restraint from 'em so they can go kill total strangers on some near-stranger's say-so, and then expect them to pull back from behaving barbarically in their free time. That's not how humans work. Not filming it would imply that they had access to shame and knew right from wrong. Maybe a couple of 'em do, but as a group they know they have to stow that girlie stuff down a deep hole somewhere till after the war. It's inane to expect better of anyone's troops. It's a fancy, dressed-up lie that "we're better than that." We're not. We might be better than that if we didn't engage in wars of choice and torture-on-demand. But we do. This is just conseqences. I don't condemn these fucked-up kids for doing fucked-up things. To my mind, that's blaming the victim. It's a rare victimizer indeed who wasn't at some point a victim. When we gonna end it?
Saturday, January 14, 2012 1:55 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by CaveTroll: A dishonorable discharge is basically the equivalent of a felony. Do you think these men deserve to have their whole life trashed because of one incidence of stupidity? Let's face facts. This was disrespectful, but not injurious in any way. The dead are beyond caring. Bullshit. A dishonorable discharge does not cost you your right to vote, or to own a firearm. Do they deserve to have their whole life trashed because of one incidence of stupidity? Ask Charles Manson. Would you grant him the same leeway?
Quote:A dishonorable discharge (DD), like a BCD, is a punitive discharge rather than an administrative discharge. It can only be handed down to an enlisted member by a general court-martial. Dishonorable discharges are handed down for what the military considers the most reprehensible conduct. This type of discharge may be rendered only by conviction at a general court-martial for serious offenses (e.g., desertion, sexual assault, murder, etc.) that call for dishonorable discharge as part of the sentence. With this characterization of service, all veterans' benefits are lost, regardless of any past honorable service. This type of discharge is regarded as shameful in the military. In many states a dishonorable discharge is deemed the equivalent of a felony conviction, with attendant loss of civil rights.[5] Additionally, US federal law prohibits ownership of firearms by those who have been discharged under dishonorable conditions[6] per the Gun Control Act of 1968.
Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:18 AM
Saturday, January 14, 2012 3:21 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: I had to read kwicko's post a couple of times to see what the hightly offensive language was....still looking
Saturday, January 14, 2012 3:38 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote: I did not know that Europeans did that Pizmo: There's good reason to believe Native Americans only started scalping white settlers because they were responding to the fact that the US Government had a bounty out on Indian scalps.
Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:24 AM
Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:35 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:This is nothing compared to what they do to our guys, and innocent civilians... Never forget that.
Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:23 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: European explorers liked to send back exaggerations and sometimes outright lies about the horrible practices of those "savages".
Saturday, January 14, 2012 9:51 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Quote:This is nothing compared to what they do to our guys, and innocent civilians... Never forget that. You're right- we're worse. We've killed, maimed, wounded and desecrated far more than they have. Never forget that.
Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:51 AM
Quote:By YOUR logic, the NAZIS were saving the Jews, not slaughtering them.
Saturday, January 14, 2012 12:02 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Quote:By YOUR logic, the NAZIS were saving the Jews, not slaughtering them. Who killed more peeps? Us or al Qaida?
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