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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Now Democrats' corporations are people too
Wednesday, February 8, 2012 3:55 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:Obama gives blessing to a super PAC Fearing a tide of spending by outside conservative groups, President Obama is giving his blessing to a pro-Democratic Party “super PAC” that will work to help his reelection, his campaign said late Monday. Obama campaign manager Jim Messina said in a message to supporters that “our campaign has to face the reality of the law as it stands,” which he said gives a large financial advantage to Republicans and their allied groups. Messina said Obama will throw his support to Priorities USA Action, a super PAC founded by two former White House aides that until now has been unable to match its conservative competitors in fundraising. “We can’t allow for two sets of rules in this election whereby the Republican nominee is the beneficiary of unlimited spending and Democrats unilaterally disarm,” Messina wrote. The move marks a clear political risk for Obama, who has staked much of his political career on opposition to the outsized role of “secret billionaires” and other monied interests while also attempting to win reelection in a struggling economy. The decision underscores the dramatic changes that have rocked the U.S. political system in the wake of a series of rulings, including Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, that have made it easier for corporations, unions and wealthy individuals to bankroll political advertising and other efforts. The clearest example of the changes have been super PACs, which can raise and spend unlimited funds as long as they do not directly coordinate with candidates, who nonetheless can help raise limited amounts of money for them. Priorities USA raised just $6.7 million in 2011 between its super PAC and related nonprofits, officials have said. That sluggish pace put it far behind its Republican rivals, in part because many major Democratic donors said they did not feel the Obama campaign was supportive of the effort. Obama has regularly slammed the Citizens United decision as misguided, and complained about super PACs in an interview aired earlier Monday on NBC News. “Unfortunately right now, partly because of Supreme Court rulings and a bunch of decisions out there, it is very hard to get your message out without having some resources,” he said. Jonathan Collegio, spokesman for American Crossroads, one of the largest Republican-leaning groups, called the shift a “brazenly cynical move by Barack Obama and his political handlers, who just a year ago had the chutzpah to call outside groups a threat to democracy.” Messina said senior Obama campaign officials as well as some White House and Cabinet officials will attend and speak at Priorities USA fundraising events, but will not solicit donations during the appearances. Obama, first lady Michelle Obama and Vice President Joe Biden will not appear at any Priorities USA events, he said. Super PACs have outpaced regular campaigns in the GOP primary race, including one group supporting Newt Gingrich fueled by $11 million from casino magnate Shel Adelson and his family. Many other outside nonprofit groups are also able to spend unlimited funds on elections without having to reveal their donors.
Thursday, February 9, 2012 5:13 AM
Thursday, February 9, 2012 5:35 AM
BLUEHANDEDMENACE
Thursday, February 9, 2012 6:57 AM
Quote:Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace: How exactly do you relate using Super PACs to supporting Corporate Personhood? That makes no sense.
Quote:The decision underscores the dramatic changes that have rocked the U.S. political system in the wake of a series of rulings, including Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, that have made it easier for corporations, unions and wealthy individuals to bankroll political advertising and other efforts. The clearest example of the changes have been super PACs, which can raise and spend unlimited funds as long as they do not directly coordinate with candidates, who nonetheless can help raise limited amounts of money for them.
Thursday, February 9, 2012 7:08 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Thursday, February 9, 2012 7:53 AM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Thursday, February 9, 2012 8:08 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Because SuperPACs are pouring millions and millions of dollars into the most expensive election in US history, Obama is supposed to get by on whatever meager funds he can raise without them! This is PRECISELY what is intended by SuperPACs in the first place; that those who don't have them or can't get enough donated to them will lose elections because of that.
Thursday, February 9, 2012 8:09 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: Geezer I don't see many democrats here with a hard-on for Obama like you all had for Bush. Like you all had for Bush even when he engaged in illegal wiretapping, started an illegal war, broke the budget, and created the situation that led to a global economic crisis. In the posts you all posted, Bush could do no wrong, no matter how disastrous his actions. That btw is how I tell a person who really is an RWA at heart - it's that idolization of anyone in authority who tells you you're on the side that's righteous. Also, you all assume we feel the same way about 'our' side. That somehow, we're starry-eyed in love. I can assure you, personally, I'm not.
Thursday, February 9, 2012 8:57 AM
ANTHONYT
Freedom is Important because People are Important
Thursday, February 9, 2012 9:55 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Hello, If your point is that the president is a hypocritical fellow, I endorse your point. This president is the worst candidate in the upcoming election, except for all the other ones. --Anthony
Thursday, February 9, 2012 10:03 AM
Thursday, February 9, 2012 10:17 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: It's not that I find corporate personhood and its consequent superPACs acceptable. And in fact you'll find a lot of democrats, liberals, and others, myself included, who made extremely negative comments about the whole travesty. So, what's your point?
Thursday, February 9, 2012 10:33 AM
Thursday, February 9, 2012 10:53 AM
Thursday, February 9, 2012 12:12 PM
Thursday, February 9, 2012 1:18 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Thursday, February 9, 2012 1:23 PM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Thursday, February 9, 2012 1:35 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: He was against them, before he was for them ? Seriously, is that part of the Democratic motto or something ? Wow. " I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Thursday, February 9, 2012 1:48 PM
Thursday, February 9, 2012 1:53 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: And yet, when the Dems are guilty of it, the first thing we hear is " but EVERYONE does it ". " I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Thursday, February 9, 2012 5:39 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Of course superPACs are bad, anyone who hasn't figured that out is ignorant at best. Colbert/Stewart have done a GREAT job of illustrating how and why, and it's brought attention to the idiocy of them nicely. But to say the President shouldn't use them because he's against them is pretty transparent
Thursday, February 9, 2012 6:04 PM
Thursday, February 9, 2012 6:22 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: I (and I suspect most) don't like superPACS b/c they could give rise to elections or policy for sale. If that wasn't an issue, I don't think anyone would care one way or the other. The republican governors I listed above pretty evidently were bought by the Koch brothers. >IF< Obama creates policy at the behest of superPAC money then he will be just as despicable. That hasn't happened yet.
Thursday, February 9, 2012 6:56 PM
Thursday, February 9, 2012 7:38 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Of course superPACs are bad, anyone who hasn't figured that out is ignorant at best. Colbert/Stewart have done a GREAT job of illustrating how and why, and it's brought attention to the idiocy of them nicely. But to say the President shouldn't use them because he's against them is pretty transparent Did I say the President shouldn't use them? No. I just said that the folks who were against SuperPACs when only Republicans used them should recognize that there's an ethical dilemma presented by the man they support using the methods they decry, and that they should admit this dilemma exists. I understand that a lot of politics is money, and that it's difficult for a politician to turn down funds, even if the method of collecting then is not in line with their views. It'd be nice if we could get the money out altogether, but since we can't, folks running for office have to make decisions about what level of corporate support they'll take. And the folks supporting them have to recognise that they sometimes have to hold their noses and admit that their candidate has taken the less-than-high road for the sake of political expediency. "Keep the Shiny side up"
Friday, February 10, 2012 4:35 AM
CAVETROLL
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: I just said that the folks who were against SuperPACs when only Republicans used them should recognize that there's an ethical dilemma presented by the man they support using the methods they decry, and that they should admit this dilemma exists.
Friday, February 10, 2012 5:04 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Where is the dilemma? He said he didn't agree with the Citizens United decision, but it's the Court's decision, which makes it the law of the land. He's following the law as set out by the conservative Supreme Court, and now conservatives have a problem with it.
Quote:Wanna get the big money out of the elections? Pass an amendment to the Constitution and do away with this idiotic notion of "corporate personhood" once and for all. Until then, hate the game if you want, but don't whinge about Obama playing by the same rules everybody else gets to play by.
Friday, February 10, 2012 6:47 AM
Quote: I think we should all find this behavior shameful, but to point at the Democrats and pretend they are a unique snoflake in this regard is just as hypocritical.
Quote:Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney on Tuesday blasted the influence of so-called super PACs in contemporary politics, calling the "new entities" a "disaster" and claiming that campaign finance laws have "made a mockery of our political campaign season." "This is a strange thing in these campaign finance laws," Romney said in an appearance on MSNBC's "Morning Joe." "They set up these new entities, which I think is a disaster, by the way. Campaign finance law has made a mockery of our political campaign season." http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57345598-503544/mitt-romney-super-pacs-are-a-disaster/ if you want to bitch about being "for" them until he's "against" them, then being "for" them because he continues using them, then yes, I do find that more egregious, given he's been using them all along and Obama has been clear that he's only utilizing them because everyone else is. We need damned election-financing REFORM, and have for decades. Riona, that's been a cry for as long as I can remember. Also, back in 2008 Quote:Since the start of 2007, (Obam's) campaign relied on bigger donors and smaller donors nearly equally, pulling in successive donations mostly over the Internet. http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?id=n00009638 also only took $1,830 from super pacs during that campaign. McCain, on the other hand, took $1,407,959 from super pacs that election. I hate super pacs; I'm bummed Obama is using them; I want to get rid of them, and we're working to do that. Want to help? Go to Movetoamend.org and help us out, volunteer, join the Race to Amend, give a donation. Or go on bitching and do nothing. But I don't expect Obama to forego super pacs when he is up against the most expensive election in history (as each one subsequently IS) without them, when every other candidate is using them. I would like to think he'll do what he can to minimize their influence in future, if re-elected, and that we CAN manage to get an amendment, tough as that's going to be. Because otherwise we are a bought and sold country, period. So I'll hold my nose. Why did none of our righties address the Republican Governors taking the stimulus money after voting against it and being vocally VERY against it, then taking CREDIT for it? Isn't that just as big a dichotomy, if not a bigger one? At least Obama's being honest by saying he doesn't like it, but HE's gonna hold his nose, too, and do it.
Quote:Since the start of 2007, (Obam's) campaign relied on bigger donors and smaller donors nearly equally, pulling in successive donations mostly over the Internet. http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?id=n00009638 also only took $1,830 from super pacs during that campaign. McCain, on the other hand, took $1,407,959 from super pacs that election. I hate super pacs; I'm bummed Obama is using them; I want to get rid of them, and we're working to do that. Want to help? Go to Movetoamend.org and help us out, volunteer, join the Race to Amend, give a donation. Or go on bitching and do nothing. But I don't expect Obama to forego super pacs when he is up against the most expensive election in history (as each one subsequently IS) without them, when every other candidate is using them. I would like to think he'll do what he can to minimize their influence in future, if re-elected, and that we CAN manage to get an amendment, tough as that's going to be. Because otherwise we are a bought and sold country, period. So I'll hold my nose. Why did none of our righties address the Republican Governors taking the stimulus money after voting against it and being vocally VERY against it, then taking CREDIT for it? Isn't that just as big a dichotomy, if not a bigger one? At least Obama's being honest by saying he doesn't like it, but HE's gonna hold his nose, too, and do it.
Friday, February 10, 2012 7:27 AM
M52NICKERSON
DALEK!
Friday, February 10, 2012 7:44 AM
Quote:I agree 100%. I don't like Obama using them, mind you, but he is against them and if given the option, I'm almost positive he wouldn't use them.
Friday, February 10, 2012 7:47 AM
Quote:As long as everyone understands he's doing the same thing that was evil when only Republicans were doing it, I'm good with it.
Friday, February 10, 2012 9:42 AM
Quote:The first round of super PAC annual filings came in yesterday, and we at Sunlight have been digging through them since. Our reporting team has been blogging the reports as we digest them. Below are five takeaway points, based on a Sunlight Foundation analysis of FEC filings for nine super PACs that raised at least $500,000 in 2011 and have spent money in the presidential election. 1. It’s a few rich donors running the show Among nine super PACs that raised at least $500,000 and have spent on the presidential election so far, almost half of the itemized contributions (47.9%) came from just 22 donors who gave more than $500,000. And 90 donors who gave more than $100,000 accounted for 78.6% of the contributions. Overall, these super PACS had only 714 itemized contributions (631 individuals and 83 organizations). In other words, these super PACs are turning out to be vehicles for a very limited number of wealthy individuals and corporations to spend very large sums of money and take a blaring megaphone to the concept of political speech. 2. Most of the donors are individuals, but corporations are playing a big role In Table 2 above, we see that of the 17 contributions of $1 million or more, seven came from corporations, led by the Contran Corporation, which gave $3 million. Contran is run by the Texas billionaire Harold Simmons, who also gave $5.5 million of his own money. Both gave to the pro-Perry super PAC “Make us Great Again, Inc.”. Simmons has since moved onto the pro-Gingrich “Winning Our Future”; Contran has moved onto the anti-Obama “American Crossroads.” Overall, of the 714 itemized contributions to the nine super PACs, organizations (mostly corporations) were responsible for only 11% (83) of the contributions, though they did give 29.7% of the total donations. Still, the giving is dominated by individuals. On average, individuals gave more ($70,024 vs $29,648), primarily because there were more really big donations from individuals. 3. Super PACs vary in their reliance on the very largest donors (details on website) While it’s clear that all of the super PACs are getting the majority of their donations from donors giving more than $50,000, they do vary in the extent to which they rely on donations in chunks of $500,000 or more. 4. Some donors are giving to multiple Super PACs It's also worth noting that there were 15 individuals and organizations that gave to at least two different super PACs, led by Perry Homes CEO Bob Perry, who gave to three (the pro-Perry Make us Great Again, the anti-Obama American Crossroads, and the pro-Romney Restore our Future). Bob Perry, of course, is no stranger to major political giving. In the 2010 cycle, he gave more than $7 million, making him the most generous political donor of the cycle. What this shows is that some of these rich individuals cannot limit themselves to just one super PAC, and probably will continue to spend widely. 5. Conclusion: It’s going to get worse These revelations should not come as a surprise. But what’s impressive is just how concentrated the giving is. Among them, these nine presidential Super PACs have raised more than $62 million. Of that money, almost half (48%) has come from just 22 individuals. We’ve already seen just how potent these super PACs can be in the first few Republican primary contests. As the electoral season moves on, super PACs will likely expand to House and Senate races as well. If what we’ve seen so far is any indication, more and more political fundraising will be dominated by the handful of super-wealthy individuals and corporations who can and will spend seven figures. These kinds of contributions can change the dynamics of a political campaign, which gives these individuals incredible potential power. It cannot be a good thing for our electoral process. Details, breakdowns and tables at http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2012/02/01/superpac-takeaways/ does one compete when the odds are so stacked against them, if one refuses to use the same tools? And how does everyone like a few very rich donors being able to swing our elections? As Colbert said "Gee, I hope they elect someone I like!"
Friday, February 10, 2012 9:49 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: It's been suggested before that politicians should wear NASCAR-style driving suits with all their "sponsors" listed on them, so you know exactly who they owe fealty to, because it's for damn sure they don't feel they owe anything to US!
Friday, February 10, 2012 10:04 AM
Friday, February 10, 2012 5:51 PM
FREMDFIRMA
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: Looks the the Right is worried that things THEY ENABLED are turning around and going to bite them in the ass.
Saturday, February 11, 2012 7:23 AM
Sunday, February 12, 2012 8:40 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Sunday, February 12, 2012 8:03 PM
Monday, February 13, 2012 5:35 AM
Monday, February 13, 2012 6:30 AM
Monday, February 13, 2012 8:31 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: The money is going for what? Advertising. 1.) One of the fixes is really simple: Just have the FCC require that all of its licensees provide a meaningful amount of free prime airtime to all state or national candidates on the ballot. That way, candidates like Ron Paul will manage to get their word out. And to those who would whine about lost advertising revenues I have two responses: "Everyone is on the same playing field" here, and "What is more important, your revenues or our democracy?"
Monday, February 13, 2012 8:34 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: The money is going for what? Advertising. 1.) One of the fixes is really simple: Just have the FCC require that all of its licensees provide a meaningful amount of free prime airtime to all state or national candidates on the ballot. That way, candidates like Ron Paul will manage to get their word out. And to those who would whine about lost advertising revenues I have two responses: "Everyone is on the same playing field" here, and "What is more important, your revenues or our democracy?" Considering the number of folks who'd declare as candidates if they could get free prime time air, I'd think most folks would be whining about to loss of any broadcasting but political ads. As to "Everyone is on the same playing field," I'm not sure I'd care to winnow through all the "Aliens probed me" and "Let's go back to the poll tax" candidates who'd pop up, just in hope of getting to someone with a reasonable platform. "Keep the Shiny side up"
Monday, February 13, 2012 9:48 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Hello, Better than most reality TV. --Anthony
Monday, February 13, 2012 11:23 AM
Monday, February 13, 2012 11:51 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Hello, Better than most reality TV. --Anthony What isn't? But to paraphrase SignyM, "What is more important, your entertainment or our democracy?" "Keep the Shiny side up"
Monday, February 13, 2012 12:06 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Geezer, it's not an easy thing to get on a ballot. It's not like you can just say "I'm running for office"
Monday, February 13, 2012 12:22 PM
Monday, February 13, 2012 3:19 PM
Monday, February 13, 2012 3:22 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: I would wish so. But I've read the reason why people are so polarized now is b/c they are geographically polarized - like lives with like. And people tend to select their information sources based on what they believe. So while there are a million TV channels, internet news sources and blogs, radio stations, newspapers etc people restrict themselves to a few sources (and for FOX 'news' watchers, 80% restrict themselves to that one source). People tend to learn the same thing a million times over and dig their mental rut ever deeper, rather than break out and learn anything new. The internet is not so much a learning resource and information venue as it is a self-selected droning propaganda.
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