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Women are more human than men, imo.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Women are more human than men, imo.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Hello Pizmo,

Having been emotionally and financially eviscerated by the fairer sex, I'd personally conclude that the potential for evil and good resides in all of us.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Anthony: Yes.

Also, I was harsh about the article, but I'm frustrated, because it seems like feminism has become all about self-pity and asking for pity. It's all about waiting for an invitation to appear on a panel, or hoping the males in congress and state legislature happen to favour your rights slightly more than appeasing their ever vocal constituents. All we've got is a bunch of women standing alone on their own, going home at the end of the day and crying into their internet diary blog: "Dear diary, today a man was mean to me. pouty face. Dear diary, today a man condescended to support feminism! Happiness and joy!"

I'm asking again, where's the spark?

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I guess if murder is the measure of all sin, then women have some catching up to do. They do catch up, though.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246802/Record-number-women-ar
rested-violent-crimes.html

Which means it's in them, just as it is in us. It just hasn't always found room for expression in society.

We're all human, and we all wont for humanity at times. When we're free to shine, or cast our shadows, we do so.

The cure isn't in the sex, but in the society, I think. And as Frem often points out, that starts with the children.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
If all of us are to be responsible for our own destinies then we must acknowledge all of us are equally human.

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
People are people, that means all people, not just some people.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm asking again, where's the spark?

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Hello Pizmo,

Having been emotionally and financially eviscerated by the fairer sex, I'd personally conclude that the potential for evil and good resides in all of us.

--Anthony

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When you find yourself in a brawl with an opponent who has no mercy, the worst thing to do is curl up into a ball and whinge and whine - no matter how supposedly outmatched you are, you stand up and hurl defiance to your very last breath, even if it does you no good every moment you take to crush is one more someone else has to put the screws to the bastard who just did for you!

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I had an interesting discussion with a co-worker from Ethiopia the other day. We were talking about republicans. What he said was - people can un-learn civility. We saw it in Rwanda, we saw it in Yugoslavia.

By civility he meant people peaceably living together, without some groups openly victimizing other groups.

MD you still live in a civilized society. You and your society believe that the society exists to benefit ALL its members equally, as an ideal. You may fall short, you may be blind to divots that exist, but it is an ideal you hold.


There are many significant percentages in the US that don't believe that - in fact believe the opposite.

I won't go into how MANY states have voted to restrict abortion choice EVEN IF PRIVATELY PAID FOR, how MANY states are voting to restrict contraception especially the pill and other hormonal birth control, how MANY states are considering vaginal probe ultrasounds which is nothing less that state-mandated rape with an object, how MANY bills to restrict abortions, CONTRACEPTION AND WOMEN'S HEALTH FUNDING have been introduced, and worse, PASSED at both the state AND FEDERAL levels.

In the US, civilization has gone and women are in a raw fight for their lives.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
If you can't find genocidal or war-mongering female leaders in history, you're not looking hard enough, but I'd suggest Bloody Mary for starters.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Pizmo,

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Let's start with your premise: Women are inherently humane and nonviolent. Men are inherently inhumane and violent.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
If this premise is correct, then there should be no trending for an increase in violence committed by females. Women are always women, and women are all (or mostly) inherently humane and nonviolent. If humaneness is an innate condition to the female, then an increase in female initiated violence isn't possible. You can't buck nature. The percentage of violent females should remain the same throughout history- a tiny aberrant portion of the entire population.

However, let's look at my premise: Women have all the same potentials as men, but they are shaped differently by society.

If my premise is correct, then a trending of increase (or decrease) in either female or male violence is easily explained. There is no inherent biological factor to overcome. As society changes its mold for the population, the population responds.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I consider my premise to be better supported by evidence and reason.

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Fine, Bloody Mary, that's one - why don't others roll off anyone's tongue? You aren't being genuine if you really want us to believe there are equal numbers of female genocidal war mongers as men. You can certainly find exceptions - but that certainly doesn't make us equals in that regard.

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humane: characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed.

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females may display more verbal and relational aggression, such as social rejection.

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And... gender mutilation & rape... really? Do I have to point these things out to the women posting here??? Pretty much those are male exclusives, right?

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You aren't being genuine if you really want us to believe there are equal numbers of female genocidal war mongers as men.

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Males are typically more openly aggressive than females (Coie & Dodge 1997, Maccoby & Jacklin 1974, Buss 2005), which violent crime statistics support. Some researchers have suggested that females are not necessarily less aggressive, but that they tend to show their aggression in less overt, less physical ways. For example, females may display more verbal and relational aggression, such as social rejection.[2][3] Men do, however, express their aggression with violence more often than women." - end wiki

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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And... gender mutilation & rape... really? Do I have to point these things out to the women posting here??? Pretty much those are male exclusives, right?

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Of course they're not. I don't know if you're aware, but you've got kind of a thing hanging out in front that's pretty easy to access and responds to stimulation. And you're just as susceptible to drugs as women are.

You want another genocidal madwoman? Really? Look up "Indira Ghandi" (no relation to Mahatma Gandhi) sometime.

Of course, her political opponents the Bhuttos from Pakistan were pretty bad themselves. Including our little female puppet dictator.

Perhaps you also don't realize the Dowager Princess behind the Boxer Rebellion ordered a massacre of christian missionaries and converts, though to be fair, Lord Elgin and his French counterpart and their response was just as bad.

Catherine the Great had peasants killed, Elizabeth II encouraged piracy and raids against the Spanish.

Suffice to say, people who want to go after positions of power are going to have some very similar traits whether men or women, and ruthlessness can be part of that.

In any case, you're falling prey to beliefs that set you and all women at a disadvantage. I would like to relieve you of them.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/23/women-leaders-politics-oped-cx_ee_102
4eaves.html

I don't need your pedestal.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:


Given that societies have generally not allowed women into a position to be murdering warmongers, that goes again to support my 'shaped by society and not nature' argument.

The question isn't just 'how many men' vs 'how many women' but 'how many women have we even allowed into the position at all?'

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How inhumane of us, telling women what they can and can't be.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

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females may display more verbal and relational aggression, such as social rejection.

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Here you actually seem to be arguing against female humaneness, unless you think verbal abuse and ostracizing folks doesn't cause suffering or distress.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I believe that in a fully equal society, women and men would have equal potentialities for violence. We just don't have many of those equal societies to look at currently. In societies where women are more equal, you see a larger percentage of females becoming violent.

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There is genetics to take into account, which is very real and has been shown to be. We still carry the traits of our ancestors; men ARE more aggressive and their sex drive IS much higher. That had reason back in the stone age, but no longer has, yet it's still the case.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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Males are typically more openly aggressive than females (Coie & Dodge 1997, Maccoby & Jacklin 1974, Buss 2005), which violent crime statistics support. Some researchers have suggested that females are not necessarily less aggressive, but that they tend to show their aggression in less overt, less physical ways. For example, females may display more verbal and relational aggression, such as social rejection.[2][3] Men do, however, express their aggression with violence more often than women." - end wiki

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Gee, you don't think there isn't any... bias of perspective, do you?

Surely its not possible that women were being treated differently by the justice system in regards to violent crimes? Perhaps less convictions and less harsh punitive measures?

Here's a study looking into juvenile offenders. I think we can easily extrapolate what they have to say to an older population as well.

http://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/highlights/18_0
2_Highlights_08.pdf

The only crimes that women are less likely to commit is homicide and sexual assault, but it doesn't mean they DON'T ever commit them.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

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How inhumane of us, telling women what they can and can't be.

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Hello,

Indeed. I'm glad I'm not arguing for the humaneness of men.

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How many men in the world ever experience gender mutilation, while millions of WOMEN do?? And as to rape, my gawd, the number of women who rape men is MINISCULE!

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Evolutionary psychology (EP) is an approach in the social and natural sciences that examines psychological traits such as memory, perception, and language.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with genetic drives regarding aggression and sex, which is what I've addressed, and ONLY what I've addressed.

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By and large, a male's potential reproductive success is limited by the number of females he mates with, whereas a female's potential reproductive success is limited by how many eggs she can produce. This results in sexual selection, in which males compete with each other, and females become choosy in which males to mate with. As a result of being anisogamous, males are fundamentally promiscuous, and females are fundamentally selective.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

If murder is your singular litmus test for humaneness, it will be a very long time before I am able to test my point- a point contingent on society treating men and women the same. Even in Israel, where women are allowed into combat, and women have led the nation, they aren't regarded the equal of men or raised with the same values as men.

However, if you are prepared to accept 'hurting others' as the basis for inhumane behavior, I think you may find that the sexes are much more evenly matched.

When we raise women the way we raise men, indoctrinate them the way we indoctrinate men, then the only difference I expect to find in murder rates is likely to be the differnce caused by a variance of upper-body strength. I do NOT expect a difference of any imagined built-in humaneness of the female heart.

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