REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Flat tax

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Sunday, March 11, 2012 07:30
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Friday, March 9, 2012 9:04 AM

OPPYH


http://www.mlive.com/opinion/muskegon/index.ssf/2012/03/steve_gunn_5.h
tml


Just an article I agree with.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 9:19 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think if there was Universal health care and guaranteed food and housing for everyone, then people wouldn't object to a flat tax. However, I think flat tax advocates probably wouldn't want those things.

While it may be fair for some people to die because they are destitute, I'm not sure it is humane. I have gradually come to approach my Libertarian values from the position of being humane. This means that I've begun to think that providing a minimum standard of health and welfare may be the only good way for a society to operate.

Which is a startlingly different place from where I started, and puts me at sharp odds with others in the Libertarian camp.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 9:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


In my opinion, just more of the same old crock of shit.
Quote:

How do so many citizens get away with not paying any federal income taxes? Through popular programs that use the tax system as a means of wealth redistribution. Programs like the earned income tax credit and child tax credit allow many Americans to take from the common pot without contributing anything.

While tax time is a headache for most working people, it's Christmas for many low-income or no-income folks. No wonder our nation is so broke.

We all benefit from the many services provided by government, but only some of us have to pay for those services. The rest receive them for free, yet they are still crying that wealthy people aren't paying enough.

Bull. Why do so many citizens not pay federal income taxes? BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY, often just to survive. This is all the same stuff we've heard a hundred times before, and it twists facts, omits facts, and plays to the rich.
Quote:

The number one reason should come as no surprise. It’s because they have low incomes. As my colleague Bob Williams notes:
Quote:

A couple with two children earning less than $26,400 will pay no federal income tax this year because their $11,600 standard deduction and four exemptions of $3,700 each reduce their taxable income to zero. The basic structure of the income tax simply exempts subsistence levels of income from tax.
Low incomes account for fully half of the people who pay no federal income tax.

The second reason is that for many senior citizens, Social Security benefits are exempt from federal income taxes. That accounts for about 22% of the people who pay no federal income tax.

The third reason is that America uses the tax code to provide benefits to low-income families, particularly those with children. Taken together, the earned income tax credit, the child credit, and the childcare credit account for about 15% of the people who pay no federal income tax.

Taken together, those three factors — incomes that fall below the standard deduction; the exemption for most Social Security benefits; and tax benefits aimed at low-income families and children — account for almost 90% of the Americans who pay no federal income tax.

For further details and info about the other 10%, please see the study ( http://taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/1001547-Why-No-Income-Tax.pdf).

P.S.: The true fact — about half of Americans do not pay federal income taxes – often gets transmogrified in public discourse into the decidedly untrue claim that half of Americans pay no taxes. That simply isn’t so. There are many other taxes in our fair land, including payroll taxes, excise taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, and property taxes. People who don’t pay federal income taxes still encounter these other taxes. http://dmarron.com/2011/07/27/why-do-half-of-americans-pay-no-federal-
income-tax/
your answer. "Christmas" my fucking ASS! In other words, HALF of those who pay no FEDERAL income tax have "incomes" below the poverty line (which keeps being raised); that they should pay more taxes than they already do (note above) when they can't earn enough money to LIVE decently is the most ridiculous argument I've heard in a while!

Get employers to pay people decent, living wages, and they'll be paying taxes. Meanwhile, at least leave them alone to provide for their families and pay the OTHER taxes.

And while we're at it, let's talk about the huge corporations making billions which don't pay federal taxes, either:
Quote:

One of the driving forces behind the ongoing Occupy Wall Street protests is the fact that corporations have not been paying their fair share in taxes. A new report from Citizens for Tax Justice will no nothing to alleviate the protesters’ frustration.

CTJ looked at 280 companies, all of them members of the Fortune 500, and found that “while the federal corporate tax code ostensibly requires big corporations to pay a 35 percent corporate income tax rate, on average, the 280 corporations in our study paid only about half that amount.” And those who paid even half the statutory corporate tax rate paid far more than many of their competitors.

In fact, in the last three years, 78 corporations had at least one year where they paid no federal income tax at all, while 30 corporations paid not a dime over the entire three years. Those 30 corporations paid nothing, even though they made $160 billion in profits over that period:

– Seventy-eight of the 280 companies paid zero or less in federal income taxes in at least one year from 2008 to 2010…In the years they paid no income tax, these companies earned $156 billion in pretax U.S. profits. But instead of paying $55 billion in income taxes as the 35 percent corporate tax rate seems to require, these companies generated so many excess tax breaks that they reported negative taxes (often receiving outright tax rebate checks from the U.S. Treasury), totaling $21.8 billion. These companies’ “negative tax rates” mean that they made more after taxes than before taxes in those no-tax years.

– Thirty corporations paid less than nothing in aggregate federal income taxes over the entire 2008-10 period. These companies, whose pretax U.S. profits totaled $160 billion over the three years, included: Pepco Holdings (–57.6% tax rate), General Electric (–45.3%), DuPont (–3.4%), Verizon (–2.9%), Boeing (–1.8%), Wells Fargo (–1.4%) and Honeywell (–0.7%).

As CTJ’s report put it, “just as workers pay their fair share of taxes on their earnings, so should successful businesses pay their fair share on their success. But today corporate tax loopholes are so out of control that most Americans can rightfully complain, ‘I pay more federal income taxes than General Electric, Boeing, DuPont, Wells Fargo, Verizon, etc., etc., all put together.’ That’s an unacceptable situation.” And its one that lawmakers could fix, if they were willing to stand up to the nation’s biggest corporations. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/11/03/360185/30-corporations-no-
taxes/
think those corporations were too poor to pay takes? Talk to THEM about paying their fair share!




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Friday, March 9, 2012 9:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, I'm glad your opinions have evolved. However, we don't even have to guarantee health care, food and shelter to all (which I'm not in favor of), if we just took away all the loopholes and other GOVERNMENT-GIVEN FREEBIES from the rich and corporations like the above, it would go a long way toward solving the problem. If we just gave people living wages and made everyone pay the taxes they're SUPPOSED to, it would make a huge difference.

Providing healthcare I agree with, as MANY other countries have done. But providing free food and shelter is going the way of socialism, which I don't think is healthy, especially as it takes away incentive. Just fairness, that's all it takes; if we could ever wrest our government out of the hands of the rich and corporations and make things REASONABLE, that's all we would need, in my opinion.



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Friday, March 9, 2012 9:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Providing healthcare I agree with, as MANY other countries have done. But providing free food and shelter is going the way of socialism, which I don't think is healthy, especially as it takes away incentive. Just fairness, that's all it takes; if we could ever wrest our government out of the hands of the rich and corporations and make things REASONABLE, that's all we would need, in my opinion.


Hello,

We currently have these programs in the form of food stamps and housing subsidies and low income housing and government grants for community benefit and etc. We just don't call it free food and housing. You're right that if everyone earned a living wage, we wouldn't need any of these things (except for people psychologically or physically incapable of caring for themselves.) I'd much prefer that.

I'm just not sure how to make it happen. What lever or set of levers, what wand do we wave, to get everyone a living wage?

If I knew, I'd pull it. I'd wave it.

I do think we can make sure starving people get enough food to live, homeless people get a roof over their heads, and sick people get medicine when they need it. Nothing luxurious. Just a healthy minimum required for survival.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 9:52 AM

OPPYH



I'm mainly speaking of the rich paying their share.

The people that skim off the government is no way to live. Sure they may be "getting by" without a job, but they are still living in poverty and with practically no material posessions. So in that respect I do feel bad for their them. They may choose not to work, but there is no possible way it is an average existance.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 9:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I wanted to add- more luxurious than this:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/10/28/cage.homes/index.html

But it doesn't take much to do better than that.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 10:01 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


What gets me about the flat-tax argument is that people never seem to understand that percenages are not real numbers.

10% of someone's income is a lot more important to the person making $10,000 per year than it is for the person making a $1,000,000 per year.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 10:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree, Nick. I think the idea of flat tax is only proposed by those whom it would benefit, obviously.

Oppyh, what proportion of the American people do you think actually "live off the government" without doing any work? That's not what the article is about, you understand, yes? They're talking about WORKING POOR, those who HAVE jobs--in many cases nowadays, both parents and multiple jobs, just to provide the minimum for themselves and their families.



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Friday, March 9, 2012 10:09 AM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I wanted to add- more luxurious than this:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/10/28/cage.homes/index.html

But it doesn't take much to do better than that.

--Anthony






Yeah, thats right Anthony. I'm thankful for everything I have, and stories like that just make me a bit sad.

Like I said, more about the rich not paying their fair share, than the struggling poor.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 10:12 AM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

And while we're at it, let's talk about the huge corporations making billions which don't pay federal taxes, either



You said it

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Friday, March 9, 2012 10:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Like I said, more about the rich not paying their fair share, than the struggling poor.


Hello,

I can see where it would be attractive for us if all those businesses Niki listed to be paying a flat tax with no exemptions, as opposed to no taxes at all.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 10:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


September of last year:
Quote:

While the number of unemployed workers has held steady at around 14 million in recent months, another telling measure of frustration in the labor market—the number of underemployed individuals—rose for a third consecutive month in September, by almost a half of a million people.

Almost 9.3 million Americans are considered underemployed, defined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics as working part-time for economic reasons, such as unfavorable business conditions or seasonal declines in demand.
.....
Put together, almost 26 million Americans are either unemployed, underemployed, or involuntarily working part-time—a number experts say is unprecedented.

To get a more accurate understanding of the struggles that many Americans face, that base should be broadened even further. He says it's important to consider people who are working, but at substandard wages. About 20 percent of adults have jobs that pay poverty-level wages (the poverty line is currently $22,500 a year). I'd consider that to be another version of underemployment—mainly jobs that are just too low-quality. Americans who fall below the poverty line make less than $10.50 an hour.

The labor market is just not delivering for Americans what it should be delivering. The weaknesses are on multiple dimensions—one is just the quantity of jobs, and the other is the quality of jobs that do exist."

Economists say the high number of underemployed workers is a sign of the tough economic times. One of the things that seems to be happening these days is that companies in an uncertain environment are tending to take people on part-time instead of full-time because they don't want to make that full-time commitment. By taking on part-time employees instead of full-timers, companies aren't forced to pay benefits or bring on employees for extended periods of time. It's also a lot more difficult to let full-time workers go. That's left millions of Americans trying to make ends meet by working multiple part-time jobs. http://investingadvicebygeorge.blogspot.com/2011/10/unprecedented-26-m
illion-americans-are.html
the 2000s, with job losses prevalent and legions held captive in positions that have gone stale, underemployment has become a critical cause of worker dissatisfaction. Here's why.

The 'I'll Take Any Job' Syndrome

Suffering the slings and arrows of this unpredictable labor market, many laid-off professionals have been forced to take low-skilled jobs for a fraction of the pay and prestige of their former posts.

A forced move into a new field usually means a cut in your standard of living.

"I can't think of any professionals who haven't taken a hit on salary," says Glen Wise, an engineer retired from Ciba Geigy, of the members of the Triad Job Search Network in Greensboro, North Carolina, which he advises.

The Underemployment-in-Place Syndrome

Can you become underemployed just by staying in one professional position for too long? You can, and in the 2000s, many employers have foisted underemployment on their workers by handing them ever-larger portions of the same work without granting them higher responsibilities. http://career-advice.monster.com/job-search/career-assessment/what-can
-you-do-about-underemployment/article.aspx
there's the upcoming generation of workers:
Quote:

According to Pew, many adults in their late 20s and early 30s have also felt the impact of the weak economy. Among all 18- to 34-year-olds, half (49 percent) say they have taken a job they didn’t want just to pay the bills, with 24 percent saying they have taken an unpaid job to gain work experience.

In addition, young workers feel more vulnerable than they used to. In a 1998 survey, 65 percent of 18- to 34-year-olds working full time or part time said they were extremely or very confident that they could find another job if they lost or left their current job. The share of highly confident fell dramatically to 25 percent in 2009. http://www.adweek.com/sa-article/coming-age-down-economy-138394]



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Friday, March 9, 2012 10:38 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


"Christmas for low-income or no-income" folks? My ASS!

Taxes too high? My Ass!

FLAT TAX, MY ASS!

Ever since 1969, when I got my first real job, governments, state, federal and local, have been taking between 20 and 25 % of my paycheck EVERY WEEK. And now that I'm unemployed, the state of California pays me some, and doesn't tax it, tho' the Feds do-- transferring money from the California gov't to the Federal gov't.

Most years I get some back, a few years I owe a little, a few times I've got back a LOT.

And I don't bitch-- those governments have stuff to do, some of it worth-while-- schooling, street cleaning, sidewalks, street lights, fire departments, cops, the Army... And some stuff I benefit from-- libraries, parks, so on. They buy a lot of stuff, which makes sales for factories, and so jobs, and employ folks, which also makes jobs. They gotta pay for that stuff.

If anybody wants to flat tax everybody at that rate, I'd be OK with that-- let 'em start by taking 25 % of Bill Gates and Mitt Romney's checks and expense accounts EVERY WEEK, no deductions, no discounts, no break for capital gains.

Then let them file on April 15 and try to get SOME of it back, Sometimes.

The Fed could get rich on the interest they'd make just holding Bill & Mitt's cash waiting to pay it back, just like banks and insurance companies do.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 11:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I do think we can make sure starving people get enough food to live, homeless people get a roof over their heads, and sick people get medicine when they need it. Nothing luxurious. Just a healthy minimum required for survival.


We can, and because of that, we ought to.
That in a nutshell is my moral argument, and it don't get simpler than that.

As for the rest of this bolus - jackass randroids love to shovel that shit, but even those who pay no "federal" taxes still get completely friggin reamed, most of em get no exemptions, they get hammered under to pay into medicare, social security, and good luck obtaining either one should it even exist in the future the way its gettin looted and even then better have a damn sharp lawyer - oh wait, can't AFFORD one, too bad, so sad, so that's money down the pisser not to mention so damn few of em SURVIVE to use any of it anyways...

And then there's gas tax, utility tax, sales tax, and a tax on tax, and more tax everywhere you turn and when every fuckin penny counts and yer using junkmail for toilet paper and stealing salt and pepper from the wendys on the sly and getting your water from unattended taps, you STILL shovel out a significant percentage of your income in taxes, and lets not even TALK about how those in power, in control of the money supply can take the VALUE out of your money via deliberate inflation even as you hold it.

But of course I waste the words, cause the world "Down There" is so far from the conception of even most of the so-called-poor that they've no way to comprehend it - talk to me when you've eaten tree bark to survive, fought off another skell over a park bench in midwinter while badly crippled, or done ad-hoc oral surgery on yourself with a set of mini screwdrivers and a 40 of malt liquor.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, March 9, 2012 6:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I do think we can make sure starving people get enough food to live, homeless people get a roof over their heads, and sick people get medicine when they need it. Nothing luxurious. Just a healthy minimum required for survival.


We can, and because of that, we ought to.
That in a nutshell is my moral argument, and it don't get simpler than that.

As for the rest of this bolus - jackass randroids love to shovel that shit, but even those who pay no "federal" taxes still get completely friggin reamed, most of em get no exemptions, they get hammered under to pay into medicare, social security, and good luck obtaining either one should it even exist in the future the way its gettin looted and even then better have a damn sharp lawyer - oh wait, can't AFFORD one, too bad, so sad, so that's money down the pisser not to mention so damn few of em SURVIVE to use any of it anyways...

And then there's gas tax, utility tax, sales tax, and a tax on tax, and more tax everywhere you turn and when every fuckin penny counts and yer using junkmail for toilet paper and stealing salt and pepper from the wendys on the sly and getting your water from unattended taps, you STILL shovel out a significant percentage of your income in taxes, and lets not even TALK about how those in power, in control of the money supply can take the VALUE out of your money via deliberate inflation even as you hold it.

But of course I waste the words, cause the world "Down There" is so far from the conception of even most of the so-called-poor that they've no way to comprehend it - talk to me when you've eaten tree bark to survive, fought off another skell over a park bench in midwinter while badly crippled, or done ad-hoc oral surgery on yourself with a set of mini screwdrivers and a 40 of malt liquor.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.




Yup. I had someone tell me that Denmark - a place with one of the highest "happiness index" rankings year after year - takes around 40-41% of your check in taxes. And for that, you're basically covered. Utilities, property taxes, tuition, health insurance - all that is taken care of.

And the argument they were presenting was that we have it so much better here, because we get to pick and choose. But I totalled mine up a while back - health insurance, property taxes, sales tax, all my federal and payroll taxes, etc. - and I came up paying right around 42% of my paycheck. And for that expense, I don't get to go to college, so I really have to wonder what the better solution is...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, March 9, 2012 8:38 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Flat tax is for suckers, slaves and cowards.



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"Not one dime of income taxes goes to support any federal program."
-President Ronald Reagan

"All individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services which taxpayers expect from their government."
-Congressional Research Service, January 15, 1984

“There is no patriotic duty to pay taxes."
-Commissioner of Internal Revenue Service v Newman, 159 F2d 848,850 (1947)

"Shit's gettin way too complicated for me. There are white folks, and then there are ignorant mutherfuckers like you! You can put lipstick on a pig. Sorry ass mutherfucker's got nuttin on me. I inhaled frequently - that was the point. Pot helped, and booze. A little blow when you could afford it. Junkie, pothead, that where I was headed."
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http://www.archive.org/details/ObamaInauguralMashup/


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Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I'm ok w/ the Flat Tax.

More down w/ the FairTax.

The progressive crap we have now ? Unfair.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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