John Derbyshire on the generation gap within US conservatives' attitudes to race by kpo

Well at least he can string coherent thoughts together in an interesting manner. Unlike many of the right in America. Must be because he is english - just joking of course. When I read the article on 'The Talk' i found the same thing, started off sounding intelligent and then became deeply offensive. Maybe its worse that such ugly ideas are written in a reasonable way, they have more chance or misleading.

Of his conservative idealogy or anti ideology, a bit of a hotchpotch really. I wonder what liberal code he thinks he is arguing against.

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All we - we conservatives - can do is to hold on to the truth, to standards, to intellectual discipline. Speak the truth!

I agree. That applies to anyone on the political spectrum. It has nothing to do with how you see the world.

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* No, people in past times were not less intelligent than ourselves.

no to who? Who says this?

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* Yes, some productions of the human imagination are superior to others, for reasons to do with eternal values.

don't really know what this refers to - are some achievements greater than others? Duh?

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* No, it is not the case that white people are inherently wicked (though some are) and un-white people inherently virtuous (though some are).

who says otherwise?

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* Yes, words have meanings, and refer to real things in a real world.

Hmmm, the same word can have different meanings, and can mean different things dependant on how it is said.

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* No, money is not the root of all evil; but too much obsessing about it will deaden you to things of the spirit.

agreed. But is it not harder for a rich man to get into heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle? (Couldn't resist)

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* Yes, human nature exists. It contains both good and evil, always has, and always will.

I agree human nature exists. Good and evil are a bit too biblical to appeal to me, but we certainly have dicotomies in our nature.

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* No, peace is not always preferable to war, not even to aggressive war.

show me a non aggressive war and I'll join it. Yep, sometimes peace is not preferable, but probably more often than not, wars could be avoided.

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* Yes, this is a commercial republic, and except in times of grave national danger, government work, however worthy, must take second place to commerce.

No, don't hold with than one. But then again, I'm a non american.

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* No, gay is not just as good as straight,

why does it have to be about better or 'as good'. People are the way they are, i wasn't aware it was a competition.

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the ancient Egyptians did not have black skin,

I guess they all looked like scandanavians then?

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a woman needs a man much, much more than a fish needs a bicycle,

i guess the author misses the issue here. women can lead rewarding lives without being dependant on a man or men, I think is the general idea. I'd say that holds true for some, although not all.

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rhyme and meter (to say nothing of sense) are not obsolete features in English versification,

you cannot have language without metre, so its not a choice. Different poetic forms have different metres and not all poetry, even traditional poetic forms contains simplistic rhyming couplets, which some people insist as being necessary to poetry.

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and self-love is not the greatest love of all, but the least.

the author seems to confuse love with ego. without a healthy care, respect and concern for oneself (often called self love) you aint gonna be much use to anyone else.

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* It is highly unlikely that any one of us is a uniquely talented individual with a precious gift to offer the world. It is vastly more probable that we are mere atoms in the mass of humanity, who must find fulfillment in a lifetime of performing humdrum tasks on behalf of our family, neighbors, and fellow-citizens, while we each explore our individuality in small rewarding hobbies and private devotions.

This i would agree with.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 3:53 PM

Based on this, I wonder if the argument about the guy deliberately trying to get fired holds some weight. Or maybe it was bad satire? But at the same time he says his children reacted with disgust when he tried to teach them his views?

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the author seems to confuse love with ego. without a healthy care, respect and concern for oneself (often called self love) you aint gonna be much use to anyone else.

I think self-loathing makes you struggle harder to try do something worthwhile.

...Or maybe not. :(

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:00 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

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I think self-loathing makes you struggle harder to try do something worthwhile.

I disagree, Byte. Most psychological studies indicate self-loathing gets turned outward and doesn't motivate attempts to be worthwhile or do worthwhile things. In fact,

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Blake and Ross (1992) and Ramachandran (1996) from the University of Michigan have studied the potency of self-hatred as a motivational tool and concluded that it is, in Ramachandran's words, "the least potent motivator in our wide survey of human psychology."

Also, "self-loathing" is used as a rhetorical tool by holders of extreme nationalistic or racist views to belittle those from the same ethnic group who do not share the views of the labeller (does this remind you of anyone here of the same "ethnic group" as I who loathes me and those he equates me with...i.e., hippies, liberals, progressives, etc.?).

Self-loathing is usually a symptom of low self-esteem, which is known to cause many negative things, few (if any) positive ones.

Magons,

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the author seems to confuse love with ego. without a healthy care, respect and concern for oneself (often called self love) you aint gonna be much use to anyone else.

Bang on. However, in the common vernacular "self-love" IS synonymous with ego, selfishness, self-centeredness, etc. Maybe it's different Down Under, but if you look for a definition of "self-love" on line, you'll see.

To ACTUALLY love yourself means to accept yourself as you are and to come to terms with those aspects of yourself that you cannot change. It means to have self-respect, a positive self-image, and unconditional self-acceptance. It does not mean being arrogant, conceited or thinking that you are better than anyone else (consciously--generally people who think that consciously actually suffer self-loathing--otherwise known as low self-esteem--the conscious mind compensates for it). It means having a healthy regard for yourself knowing that you are a worthy human being, as good as everyone else but no better.

It is the lack of ACTUALLY loving oneself which is the biggest single thing missing from humans and causes the very worst aspects of us. You forgot "acceptance", by the way. If people could accept themselves completely, what follows would be acceptance, compassion and real love for themselves and everyone else, and there'd be amazingly fewer problems in the world.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:08 PM

I doubt there are many people who have not from time to time, gotten out of bed and gone 'blech' at themselves in the mirror.

But I agree Niki. Self loathing is not a tool to better oneself, but usually leads to a wide range of destructive behaviours. The idea that beating oneself up (figuratively) leads to improvement, is the same school of thought that treats kids harshly to improve character. Neither is effective.

Treat yourself with the same care and compassion you would a good friend.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:19 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yup, you nailed it, in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with going "blech" at the mirror, but I do it humorously. It's just me; might not like how I look, but that's okay, it's me and there's more to me than what I look like, as with everone.

The hardest thing for anyone is to be self-aware, to be able to see all the flaws and accept yourself nonetheless, because acceptance IS love, and it grows from there automatically.

As the Buddha said: "You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." Unfortunately, far too few of us actually give it to ourselves (tho' consciously we may believe we do), and I could go into a whole long diatribe about the "deserving" part. It's one of the things which fucks people up, maybe more than any other single thing. The subconscious belief that we don't "deserve" to be loved (and if you dig deeper, amazingly "to live"!) is at the very core of many, if not all, psychological problems.

I think Derbyshire is an excellent example of inability to love himself, sadly, and I can think of a few others. Hell, MANY, including most politicians, celebrities, movie stars, lawyers, CEOs and others!

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 6:25 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

In order to achieve self value I seperate myself, the creature inside, from my body and brain and all that entails. This way I can actually like myself, the creature inside. The thing is that there's this huge discinance between certain pieces of my self and my situation, which confuses others a lot. I utterly loath certain things about myself and highly prize others. My dad doesn't understand this and calls me a narcisist, he doesn't understand that I have to love things about myself to combat the hatred of other things. But when I seperate my inner being from the outer, its easier to love myself.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:21 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think self-loathing makes you struggle harder to try do something worthwhile.

I get the concept you were trying to express, but maybe the words ain't right for it.

When I look in the mirror, the one thing I desire most is a world where folks like me are not created in a crucible of misery, where the conditions for it simply no longer exist - a world that has, frankly, no NEED of people like me.

Now, maybe that's not exactly self-loathing, but oh yes, I get where you are coming from on that, and how and why it might well be a trigger for pro-active behavior which betters the lives of others.
I'm just not sure what a more accurate wording of it might be.

-F

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 2:44 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

I've never understood self-loathing.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:33 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

There's a trick for that, Riona and Frem; it works for some, not for others. It did for me, and was kind of a shock when it did. Picture yourself as a little child, see any and all of the flaws, and would you love that child despite them? Of course you would. Most of our "flaws" come from the little child we have inside, and I'm forced to believe that because I've met mine. Some of us have more than one. I have a little girl who was shy and frightened--she didn't trust me, but eventually I was able to meld her. The other is an angry teenager; she doesn't trust me either and has made me act out in ways I didn't like. The best we've been able to do is come to a truce; she still acts out, but I accept her. Most of the time (I think) I know when my impulse comes from her and can counteract it, but I'll never truly meld her.

That no doubt sounds like psychobble to any who haven't experienced it, but I have no choice but to believe it because it happened to me. It's our subconscious, the things we've internalized as children which we were never able to go back and see from an adult viewpoint and realize, again, they weren't really ABOUT us. So if you can find a quiet time to try it, and are able to see the child inside, realize it's just a hurt child, and even (stupid as this sounds) wrap your arms around yourself like you would a child, she might even open up and let you know she's there. Self-awareness is a wonderful gift! Makes it a TON easier to accept oneself, and from acceptance comes love.

I was lucky to hit by accident on a world-renowned therapist who did EMDR, a method that allows one to go back and see things through...can't think of the right word, but "unemotional" or "detached" comes closest--eyes. For me it was a pretty fantastic experience, and showed me how many of the things I carry around and act out from were things I internalized as a child and continued to react out of. A chance word from a parent or other authority figure, some label that had been put on me, I'm sure everyone's experienced something like that. Seeing it through dispassionate eyes put it in perspective, and damned if it didn't almost immediately lessen its influence on me or go away completely. I wish I could do that for EVERYONE; loving oneself would come SO easily then.

Which is not to say it was easy--far from it--or not painful, but feeling better about oneself and the world always takes work. That's why therapy doesn't work for so many people; they expect to BE healed, and they don't do the hard work, so they're stuck just talking and never get anywhere, which is a shame.

If you're ever curious, try the child thing...I'll bet you'll at the very least be able to SEE that child, and you might find the things you dislike, you can accept with love if you see him/her. I SO wish I could give everyone the gifts that were given to me; there'd be so much less suffering and hurting of selves and others...sigh...

Okay, enuff blathering; I hope I didn't offend anyone and if you think it's bullshit, please feel free to say whatever you like, it won't bother me. I laughed about all this as much as anyone and thought it was ridiculous until it happened to me, believe me!

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA

LMAO, oh I get ya, it's just that my "Inner Child" is freakin SCARY.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreepyChild

Seriously, what lies within is WORSE, it's that thing I liken to a monster chained up in the back of my mind, which I set loose upon bastards worthy of the horror, so I've kinda had to look elsewhere for moral decency, such as I have.
Maybe not so much peace with it as detente, but at least there's an arrangement.

ETA: And I know all about how labels can harm, endlessly taking blame for shit you didn't do cause it's more convenient for the adults that way is another one - cause that ends in "if imma hang for it anyways...".
And sadly, my niece has also fallen to it, and there's precious little I can DO about it.

Hell, that's WHERE it came from, I am not whatever unaware of it.

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You call me a Villain ?
If that is how it's gonna be, then you're gonna GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR!, OH YES, YOU'LL HAVE YOUR MONEYS WORTH!

Not at ALL unaware of it, which is why I mock it externally and internally, elsewise I might take it too serious and really believe it.

-Frem

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:08 AM

My inner child thinks I've grown soft. I think she's a spoiled clueless brat.

Hugging is not what is needed.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 1:34 PM

That's interesting that you felt you were really helped by EMDR, Niki. I've heard of it but not sure if its practised here at all.

You are right about a lot of people being stuck. They don't seem to realise that change takes a lot of hard work and committment and lots of self reflection. The trouble is most of us don't give ourselves the space in our lives needed to do that. We're a lot like worker ants, marching along until we drop.

Re the self loathing - I think there is something inherent in our society which encourages it, and i think a lot of it has to do with religion, sorry religious people.

It seems to me that fundamental beliefs of christianity are that we are born bad, tainted with original sin. That means, in strict doctrine, that babies are born bad!!! In Catholicism, babies who died unbaptised - wiped of the original sin - were condemned, although they made limbo for them because hell was really too mean, even for them.

Christianity has some funny views on good and evil, it seems to insist that people have to fight with themselves constantly to keep that evil, that original sin from bubbling to the surface. You have to fight your own true nature to keep the evil at bay.

The old pagan gods, if I take the romans for example, had many more shades of grey. They didn't have the same ideas about good and evil, humans (and gods) were not split down the middle, or totally one or the other. The gods could be mischevious, cunning, drunken, debauched AND sacred. To me it seem to be much more accepting of human nature and all its facets.

Christianity seemed to take those same gods and polarised human nature. On one side was all about purity, obedience, devotion, self sacrifice, the spiritual - labelled good and embodied by the Trinity, and on the other was the much more corporeal - lust, greed, envy etc all labelled as evil and embodied by the Devil.

I think that split, striving for one side of our humanity, while despising the other, has been very bad for us psychologically, and led to many distorted patterns of behaviour around our bodies.

Anyway, completely off topic and something of a rant. Apologies.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:18 PM

The religions all have their bad sides, being pagan doesn't necessarily prevent that.

Anyway, I don't think people are evil.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:39 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

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Christianity has some funny views on good and evil, it seems to insist that people have to fight with themselves constantly to keep that evil, that original sin from bubbling to the surface. You have to fight your own true nature to keep the evil at bay.

Hello,

I feel this way to a degree. Only, instead of 'original sin' I feel that every day is a fight against greed and gratification at the expense of others. Every day is a fight between what is easy for me and painful for others, and what is harder for me but better for others.

In the end, I've found that making hard choices that benefit others often results in me getting gratification anyway. But it takes a little faith to believe it will be worthwhile.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Christianity has some funny views on good and evil, it seems to insist that people have to fight with themselves constantly to keep that evil, that original sin from bubbling to the surface. You have to fight your own true nature to keep the evil at bay.

Hello,

I feel this way to a degree. Only, instead of 'original sin' I feel that every day is a fight against greed and gratification at the expense of others. Every day is a fight between what is easy for me and painful for others, and what is harder for me but better for others.

In the end, I've found that making hard choices that benefit others often results in me getting gratification anyway. But it takes a little faith to believe it will be worthwhile.

To be more precise, I believe that Christianity for a long time tended to vilify finding pleasure in the physical world, particular of the body. And I believe those beliefs run deep within our society.

Some examples, taking pleasure in activities such as eating, drinking, dancing, singing, enjoying one's own body or appearance, basically anything to do with sex or arousal...all of these have been considered at one time or another terrible sins.

Remember Adam and Eve and the realisation they were naked - and the total shame that it caused them. I believe that shame and guilt, over what are basic human needs and conditions have long been tenets of Christianity (and other religions).

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:01 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think this is one of the reasons why I tend to enjoy certain aspects of Gnostic Christianity or Christianity influenced by Eastern belief systems.

They are less caught up in flaying oneself over human failings and more concerned with treating people well.

I've come to pretty much abhor Catholicism for taking what I perceive to be the opposite stance.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:43 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I enjoy eating, yum, dancing (only at the faires and cons though because I'm a dreadful dancer), think I'm pretty and intend to enjoy sex very much should marriage present itself (looking forward to that one :))

Anthony I would consider greed a sin, it causes lots of problems for people. And I'm definitely one who feels we need to go against some natural things to people that aren't right, greed being pretty inherrant, in some more than others, but pretty inherrant none the less. But we can't do that alone and we all screw up sometimes, no point in playing like we don't.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:59 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Frem and Byte: Both of you seem to me to be "hearing" the negative voices, rather than finding the "child". You have to get past that...looki at it as a child who doesn't trust you, so strikes out from defensiveness.. That's the biggest blockade, I've heard and experienced--the subconscious keeps things from us because it doesn't believe we're strong enough to deal with them...yet. Accepting that "child" inside unconditionally, hugging him/her if possible, can be the first step toward trust. The irony is that we don't trust ourselves--it comes out as "the inner child doesn't trust you" because that's the easiest way to explain it, and visualizing the helpless child is the easiest way to have compassion for it.

I had to do a LOT of "listening"--just listening, trying not to judge, to get anywhere in that process. It takes time, but the "child" is different from the negative messages we have inside. It's the thing at the very bottom, under all the resentment, anger, etc., etc. that was HURT by those messages so put them in the subconscious...yeah, we can be aware of them, but becoming aware of the thing(s) at the very bottom, that takes patience. It takes a bit of faith, too.

Frem, I think you've had to build up a pretty good wall between you and your subconscious, or child if you will. I'd bet you get stopped at the anger--and I'm sure there's a TON of it, there would have to be, given your life. But there IS something beyond that, there has to be; we're not born angry. I think that wall is a way to make you feel safe, make you feel like there's this scary strong person inside you that will keep you safe, be there when you need him. But under that is a child who needs love, I know that--you have a lot of love to give, so he's in there somewhere.

Byte, darlin', you are the hardest person on yourself of most of those I've met. I'm guessing you're stuck at the "bad messages" place...again, under that is a loving child/subconscious. But yeah, it would take courage to let her in and listen to all the bad things she would have to say...if you could, and not take them personally ('cuz NONE of them came from YOU), then give back love, bet you'd have the surprise of your life. Betcha.

An example I've probably mentioned before, and it doesn't relate to anyone, just something I observed. Jeff (Jim's son) was so FULL of anger, I mean like every minute of every day, and it pulled him both ways. He was furious with Jim for what he felt was "abandoning" him, but he loved his dad so much and wanted to make him proud, it tore him up something fierce. I told Jim that if he could JUST sit down and let Jeff say anything to him that he wanted, stay calm and when Jeff ran down tell him he loved him, gawd, it could have changed both of their lives! His response? "I couldn't do it. I'd deck him". Jim wasn't very self-aware back then either ;o). I'll bet dollars to donuts if the Jim of NOW could go back in time, he would be able to do it. It could have spared both him and Jeff years of misery...sigh...it always drove me nuts.

I hope I don't offend anyone, I am definitely an amateur psychologist and find people fascinating. I'm not sure how to say this without sounding bad, so I'll just let you take it however you want. I had two chances in my life that I missed out on because I didn't have the courage--dunno if they'd have worked out, but I always regret not trying those paths. One was working with animals; when I was at Marine Mammal Center, two of the head people told me I had talent in that direction and took me under their wing. They got me into Marineworld where I worked as a volunteer trainer, and I could have gone on from there. I chickened out and self-destructed (took a long time to understand THAT!).

The other was Laurel and one other therapist I worked with who told me I would be good at therapy--which statements scared the hell out of me when I heard them, believe me! I don't know if they were right or wrong, but I've certainly always been fascinated by people and the workings of the mind, and would love the opportunity to help people. I have, in a VERY small way, with my website. But in both cases, I'd have to have had training, was already in my thirties and Jim and I were just scraping by. That was my excuse at the time, anyway. So yeah, I can't help trying to figure people out and given a tiny opening, will try to share the things that helped me whenever I can. It's not meant to say I know everything, or even much of anything, I just want to help sooo damned bad. Dumb, huh?

Some people are fascinating, even some who are unpleasant (in fact probably mostly those who are unpleasant, but it's not much fun to be fascinated by them!). Some people, over time, can be figured out to some extent, and to those who care about them, from the outside sometimes the answers seem SO simple. We all have the urge one way or another to "fix" those we care about--whether we can or not--so just chalk it up to that...amateur psychologist who wishes those I care about well. And please feel free to be pissed at me, 'cuz I've got no right to tell you anything or ask you to do anything.

Magons, that's lovely. It sounds to me like you are in a good place on your path, and still moving forward. That's the important part, to work to keep moving. And that's where people like Wulf and Kane and Raptor are so sad; they're stuck and not moving forward. Maybe they never will, which is indescribably sad. It's very frustrating to see and know you can't help.

EMDR was begun as a therapy for PTSD. It works for some, not for others, but they've had a lot of luck with it in the military. Then they started using it in other places. It's kind of logical. Seeing a traumatic event from "outside", safely and dispassionately, can take the horror out of it; seeing our childhood traumas (and even little messages we took too deeply) from the outside can take the power out of them. I think its uses are getting wider and wider all the time. Laurel (Parnell, she's got a couple of GREAT books out about it) was always traveling around the world teaching other therapists the techniques, I stumbled on her by accident and man, was I ever lucky!

It can also be dangerous for people who aren't ready for it...like I said, the subconscious keeps thing from our conscious minds that it knows we're not ready for. EMDR can jump that fence, and some people have had bad experiences because they're not ready to confront things yet. It's got to be done safely and carefully, even then, I left a lot of sessions shaking and/or crying. Three or four days later, tho', I'd have internalized it and was just that leeetle bit freer. I thank Laurel and buddhism for giving me the life, and the peace, I have now. Like I said, I got AWFUL lucky...first Laurel, then a co-worker who was a buddhist monk and took me under her wing. You don't get luck like that every day!

Hooo, boy are you right about society!! And religion, but the society here in the states makes a LIVING off making us feel "less than", and that we have to use or buy something, or strive to attain something, in order to stop being "less than". It's a growth industry!!

I agree about religion, too, to a certain extent, and the division of self is right on. Personally, tho', I think for those of us who aren't really religious--which I think is the majority of the population--society has much more influence on a day-to-day basis, and comes at us in every form of advertising and peer pressure imaginable, all day!

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I think that split, striving for one side of our humanity, while despising the other, has been very bad for us psychologically, and led to many distorted patterns of behaviour around our bodies.

Damned straight! And honey, you ain't got NUTTIN' like the shit we Yanks have around our bodies--you've already gotten quite a taste of that just talking to us here!

By the way, yes, you have had the EMDR Association of Australia (EMDRAA.org) since '98...glanced over their website, they look really GOOD! EMDR can be dangerous, as I said, and therapists need to be well trained and very responsible. Theirs says, among other things: "in addition to supporting practitioners, sets the standards for training, certification and consultancy in EMDR". Good on them. There are far too many therapists who have "jumped on the wagon" with EMDR without the proper guidance, training and support; they've done a LOT of damage, believe me! I could tell you horror stories, but I definitely won't!

Rattle, rattle, rattle...I'll go away now. I've GOT to stop coming back here after morning, dammit...at least this time I ate, but it's going on 10:00 now AGAIN so I'll stop boring you guys and go to bed. What the hell, I don't figure anyone got this far if they weren't interested anyway, so no harm no foul, yes? I hope so.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:10 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, to Wulf: Everything I've said about the dangers of the internet, as someone else mentioned, goes for you too. I blather about my life and everything here and have no problem with it being shoved back in my face by those who hate me. But you need to think; if you're going to bring your daughter here, it's something people know about you now, and they will mention it--your detractors will use it against you. I mean your daughter absolutely no harm at all...I fear for her, and when I see some of the things you write, she immediately comes to mind. I'll try not to mention her again, but I make no promises; once we open up about ourselves we can never take it back, and people will use it against us. You can't stop that, any more than I can stop you throwing "hippie" at me as a nasty derrogatory. Know that, and talk about her at your own peril. I'm NOT threatening you, I'm just trying to show you the dangers by giving myself as an example. You have no compunction against saying filthy things to me and wishing me dead, and have no interest in how it affects me. Most of us here are kind enough not to do to you what you do to me and others, and making the ocmparison will mean nothing to you; just be aware that you can't stop people from using the fact you have a baby against you if they want to, any more than I could stop you.

If it bothers you as much as it seems it does, then be prepared. There's nothing you can threaten anyone with if they say bad things about your daughter (which nobody here NOW would dream of doing, I believe), but you've brought her into the lion's den. All I can say is grow a thick skin, try not to take it personally ('cuz nobody can hurt HER anyway, and only words can hurt YOU), and if you think it's going to bother you too much, stop mentioning her and people will forget eventually.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:52 AM

>_>

I don't think you fully apprehend what I was like as a kid, or what I've dealt with internally since the first time I had conscious thoughts. But suffice to say none of it came from outside.

Some of us really are born different, Niki.

Also this thread got really derailed. I guess because the racist online magazine writer who got fired isn't a worthy subject of more than a few lines of conversation?

This is what I like to think.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:34 PM

We are born with temperment and shaped by our environement. ALL of us. No child is born evil, bad or destructive. It simply is not true. What is true is that some babies have more difficult temperaments, are harder to soothe. This often makes carers project a whole host of negative emotions onto a child which the child can internalise as being 'bad'.

I think you have a very negative mindset towards yourself, but I also think you take pride in your difficultness and destructivenesss. That is how your define yourself. And that probably works for you in your life.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:52 PM

Quote:
What is true is that some babies have more difficult temperaments, are harder to soothe. This often makes carers project a whole host of negative emotions onto a child which the child can internalise as being 'bad'.

Actually I was really quiet. Just not particularly smiley or responsive. My parents tried to interact with me, but that tended more to annoy me, especially as I started to become old enough to talk, and I never really attached to them.

Quote:
but I also think you take pride in your difficultness and destructivenesss.

Yeah, isn't it great how I can never trust myself around anything or anyone.

I do take pride in my struggles, I guess, but I'm not sure that's the same thing at all.

I get that you're both trying to help, but there's really no deep seated trauma, neglect, or abuse here. It's just how I am, and is very likely a chemical imbalance, but not one that I'm inclined to treat.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:59 PM

yet you reject out of hand what niki has said, instead preferring to continue to give yourself the big stick because of your 'badness', because ?????

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:03 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Magon's, so you don't believe in "bad seeds" aka antisocial personality disorder? There's that fundimental piece that's missing. Some kids start out with Oppositional Defiant Disorder and then grow out of it, yay! But some develop into having conduct disorder and yes some can still grow out of it, but those who don't end up with antisocial personality disorder, I know you know all this. Point being that I do believe that, rarely but it happens, that someone is just born wrong like that. I think though that a true case of that which is not at all related to environment is rare. My friend H's mom had it and H had ODD when she was young, but she grew out of it and has normal empathetic abilities now. Its worth mentioning that she's adopted and had no contact with her biomom as a kid. She met her when she was grown and was curious about where she came from. She didn't like the results of that quest and doesn't have contact with either of the bio parents now. She's really close with her parents who raised her though.

Hi Byte, I agree with you, who really wants to talk about this icky racist guy, so the thread morphed.

I think nature v. nurture is about 50 50, some things are inherrant but some thing are learned and absorbed.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:05 PM

Because I know for a fact that I had every advantage as a infant/kid, my parents tried to connect with me and never could. They still try, it still doesn't work.

Her advice simply doesn't apply. No one made me into this but me. And I know, because I've had to listen to my inner voice for all these years, and it sounds like me. No one else calls me a bitch, no one else mocks everything I try to do, no one else kicks me when I'm down and tells me that I'm hated and unwanted and should go die. Me. I do. And it's been that way since I was old enough to remember.

(yes, I was actually a very swear-y four and five-year old, and I did in fact call myself a bitch back then as well)

Riona talks about kids having an innocence period. I never did. I knew about violence and death and betrayal and lies and predation.

Not evil, but a very hard person to deal with, entirely unaffectionate and cold, and very unpleasant. There is no way I can be anything else unless I go through medicine chemical lobotomy, which, by the way, I did, and it didn't take.

Simply, I am what I am.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:13 PM

No I don't believe in bad seeds. Never met an evil baby to this day. Bwahahahahhahaa.

I do believe that some people's brains are wired a little differently, that in effect they have a brain disorder which means they miss out on the empathy wiring, but it doesn't necessarily make them into serial killers and in fact most would lead pretty normal lives, just drive those around them to a bit of despair.

As I said earlier, all of us are products of our genes and our environment, not sure of the percentage which can be attributed to each. I think the jury is still out on that one.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:13 PM

double post

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:16 PM

Quote:
I do believe that some people's brains are wired a little differently, that in effect they have a brain disorder which means they miss out on the empathy wiring, but it doesn't necessarily make them into serial killers and in fact most would lead pretty normal lives, just drive those around them to a bit of despair.

This is getting closer. Think more along these lines.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:23 PM

MINCINGBEAST

Racism is one of my favorite subjects; self-loathing is my absolute favorite subject, because it is the chief way I pass the time before I die.

Self-loathing is an incredible source of energy and inspiration.

Everything rad I have done in life I owe to self-loathing.

My morning consists of waking up, sighing with disappointment that I have reached another day, and then gazing at my reflection in the mirror and reminding myself that I'm a stupid, greedy, weak, ugly mortal, and that my life is as meaningless as my hopes and dreams. It works for me--it'll work for you too.

Should I ever have the misfortune of breeding, I will share this wisdom with my children. "Feel shame about your body, disgust for your appetites, and you'll go far."

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Because I know for a fact that I had every advantage as a infant/kid, my parents tried to connect with me and never could. They still try, it still doesn't work.

Her advice simply doesn't apply. No one made me into this but me. And I know, because I've had to listen to my inner voice for all these years, and it sounds like me. No one else calls me a bitch, no one else mocks everything I try to do, no one else kicks me when I'm down and tells me that I'm hated and unwanted and should go die. Me. I do. And it's been that way since I was old enough to remember.

(yes, I was actually a very swear-y four and five-year old, and I did in fact call myself a bitch back then as well)

Riona talks about kids having an innocence period. I never did. I knew about violence and death and betrayal and lies and predation.

Not evil, but a very hard person to deal with, entirely unaffectionate and cold, and very unpleasant. There is no way I can be anything else unless I go through medicine chemical lobotomy, which, by the way, I did, and it didn't take.

Simply, I am what I am.

But what you are saying is that you have an inner voice that treats you badly. Since you are aware of your voice, you can actually learn to control it. Change the script, so to speak. All of us have the capacity to do that, whatever means you choose. Niki's was to to a visualisation of yourself as a child. Mine would be mindful of your voice, and learn to change/reject the fury it rains down on you.

But first you have to want to it. You don't. In fact, you are quite determined not to. That is why I said it must work for you in some way, otherwise you would try to change it.

BTW, what you describe sounds an awful lot like some kind of autism. Either way, it isn't about being bad, it's about being okay with who you are and what you got dealt with. we can change what we can, and accept what we can't change. That is the best any of us can do.

Edit. Kids learn to swear from someone. You didn't just invent the words.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:45 PM

Quote:
But what you are saying is that you have an inner voice that treats you badly.

It's me. And it's always been there.

Quote:
But first you have to want to it. You don't. In fact, you are quite determined not to. That is why I said it must work for you in some way, otherwise you would try to change it.

Excessive negativity and detachment improves my analytical ability. The anger and self-loathing give me purpose.

Also, again, it's me.

Lobotomy Byte is not me.

Quote:
Edit. Kids learn to swear from someone. You didn't just invent the words.

Television and other kids. I tended to hang out with older kids instead of people my age. And that town was pretty dysfunctional.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
But what you are saying is that you have an inner voice that treats you badly.

It's me. And it's always been there.

Quote:
But first you have to want to it. You don't. In fact, you are quite determined not to. That is why I said it must work for you in some way, otherwise you would try to change it.

Excessive negativity and detachment improves my analytical ability. The anger and self-loathing give me purpose.

Also, again, it's me.

Lobotomy Byte is not me.

So that is how it works for you. If you invested heavily in change it wouldn't feel like YOU, you'd feel like you with a lobotomy. I get it. I don't agree, but I get it.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MINCINGBEAST:
Racism is one of my favorite subjects; self-loathing is my absolute favorite subject, because it is the chief way I pass the time before I die.

Self-loathing is an incredible source of energy and inspiration.

Everything rad I have done in life I owe to self-loathing.

My morning consists of waking up, sighing with disappointment that I have reached another day, and then gazing at my reflection in the mirror and reminding myself that I'm a stupid, greedy, weak, ugly mortal, and that my life is as meaningless as my hopes and dreams. It works for me--it'll work for you too.

Should I ever have the misfortune of breeding, I will share this wisdom with my children. "Feel shame about your body, disgust for your appetites, and you'll go far."

LOL> You should start up 'The Wulf and Mincing Beast School for Infants'. I can just see the lettering at the gate.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:52 PM

Thank you.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:12 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ahhh, Mincing, I've missed you. You should never leave, even for a day; you make me feel good.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 7:07 AM

MINCINGBEAST

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Ahhh, Mincing, I've missed you. You should never leave, even for a day; you make me feel good.

My posts are so poorly thought out, and feebly composed, that they make folks' brains release endorphins.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 7:32 AM

Quote:
My posts are so poorly thought out, and feebly composed, that they make folks' brains release endorphins.

I think that your ironic self-loathing is biting satire. It makes me feel terrible about my own emotional dump here, and yet I crave more.

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 7:17 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

One's LOI process is not necessarily about innocence, though thats the form it commonly takes, a loss thereof. Its about someone seeingthe world one way and then going through something, or somethings, that changes how one views the world, how one sees the people around them, how one perceives one's place in the world. "Loss of innocence" is a way of conveying a change in someone's awareness of themselves and others around them and the way things go in life. I have talked with you before about this and I remember what you said when we talked about it, what you described.

I'm going to be the annoying counter to your inner voice and tell you that I like you and think you're a nice friend, you posess a loyalty and concept of fealty which I admire and which I think is good.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 3:06 AM