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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
The Retreat at Twin Lakes homeowners may be sued over Martin's Death
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:16 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote: The Retreat at Twin Lakes homeowners association might be wishing they had picked someone else to be neighborhood watch captain, since Zimmerman’s action could end up costing them a bundle of money, to say nothing of a young man’s life. “The degree to which the HOA authorized George Zimmerman’s actions will affect the HOA’s exposure to liability and may also play a role in the theory of liability presented by the plaintiffs in this case,” Wilcox says. “The HOA’s liability based on its designation of George Zimmerman as neighborhood watch captain will also depend on the answers to numerous questions.” Among the questions that would determine the extent to which the association is exposed to liability: How was Zimmerman appointed? By a vote of the HOA board? What is the HOA’s authority under its governing documents to establish a community watch program in the first place? How detailed were the HOA’s guidelines and policies, if any, for executing the community watch program? Did the HOA have knowledge that Zimmerman owned and carried firearms? Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit? Did Zimmerman violate any other HOA rules relating to carrying a firearm in the neighborhood? http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/04/homeowners-association-could-be-liable-in-trayvon-martins-death/ was Zimmerman appointed? Quote: As the only person to volunteer when the homeowners association wanted to organize a community watch,[44] Zimmerman was appointed coordinator by his neighbors, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department. The February 2012 homeowner association newsletter requested that crime victims "call our captain, George Zimmerman" after calling the police.What is the HOA's authority under its governing documents to establish a communit-watch program in the first place? Quote: Association boards may appoint corporate officers - or officers may be elected directly by the membership (depending on the jurisdiction). The officers and the board may create committees, such as an "architectural control committee", a pool committee, a neighborhood watch committee, and others. WikiThe governing documents aren't available to the public, but I found this:Quote: Whenever an association is attempting to enforce a provision in the governing documents, any ambiguity will be construed against the association. http://www.condoandhoalawblog.com/search/label/governing%20documents] How detailed were the HOA’s guidelines and policies, if any, for executing the community watch program? There are numerous references toQuote: The head of an HOA watchdog group told the Sentinel: "They should have ... disallowed members from running around with guns. If you don't put out guidelines, you are in deep doo-doo if something happens." http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2012/04/homeowners-may-have-to-pay-in-a-trayvon-civil-action.html we haven't public access to their documents, we can't know. Did the HOA have knowledge that Zimmerman owned and carried firearms? Quote: An interview with 3 members of the association defending Zimmerman - when asked if they knew if he had a gun - 2 said no, 1 said YES. http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/homeowner_association_could_be/865/comments-newest.html a comment to an article, and I can't find anything else to verify it. There is also mention that, if they knew he carried a gun, the other homeowners should have been notified of that. Most homeowners' associations do not allow their watch people to carry guns. Other references include this about neighborhood watch carrying guns?:Quote: He had to take a class with other volunteers, where he says deputies told them to never chase a suspect. They aren't allowed to carry weapons. They aren't even allowed to get out of their cars. http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/policy-of-caution-guides-neighborhood-watch-groups/1221327] The National Sheriff's Association sponsors neighborhood watch programs. Their manual says patrol members don't carry weapons. http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mostpopular/story/Should-neighborhood-watch-groups-carry-guns/uLHMnZnxhEqNhOI5lwTcpg.cspx are other neighborhood watch programs which do allow it. According to a CNN poll:Quote: According to the poll, only one in five believe that neighborhood watch members should carry guns, with 76% saying they should not be allowed to be armed. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-26/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting-poll_1_gun-laws-shooting-death-grand-jury?_s=PM:JUSTICE] Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit?Quote: Zimmerman was licensed to carry a firearm. Sanford police chief Bill Lee stated that neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry a gun but have a Constitutional right to do so. Lee further stated, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred." Wiki There is this:Quote:Unfortunately, the HOA was a part of this tragedy. What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”? Did the board ask about Zimmerman’s background, which we now know was not “squeaky clean”? Did the board ask if he carried a weapon? What training did Zimmerman have? Did the board ask any of these questions, before endorsing him in the HOA newsletter as the “go to” guy for community security? According to the National Sheriff’s Association, the HOA community never registered with any official neighborhood watch program. Why not? Did the HOA even know or verify that neighborhood volunteers were following appropriate guidelines? We now know that Zimmerman certainly did not follow the guidelines promulgated by the National Sheriff’s Association for neighborhood watch programs. Chris Tutko who runs the program stated that the manual specifically states that citizens should never pursue or take action on their suspicions. Their job is to report, not shoot. Neighborhood watch volunteers have no more authority than an ordinary citizen. According to NPR, Tutko emphasized that “Firearms are definitely out” for a neighborhood watch program. http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/condoblog/page/2 know that neighborhood watch programs don't need to register with any national group, and theirs had not. But what about due diligence and background check? I'm not going to hunt up answers (if there are any available) to the questions asked in this article...personally I'm guessing they didn't do due diligence or check out his background. From what I'm fiding, many neighborhood watch programs aren't paid much attention to by a lot of HOAs. But they should be, as this situation has shown. On another point:Quote:In an HOA meeting some weeks prior to Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, another resident of the community was kicked out of the meeting because he complained that Zimmerman was profiling him. This strongly implies to me that the HOA knew and approved of what Zimmerman was doing: George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing Quote:At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter . http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html From all of this, it looks like the HOA may be liable...but more important, I think some of these questions will be pertinent at his trial, as well.
Quote: As the only person to volunteer when the homeowners association wanted to organize a community watch,[44] Zimmerman was appointed coordinator by his neighbors, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department. The February 2012 homeowner association newsletter requested that crime victims "call our captain, George Zimmerman" after calling the police.
Quote: Association boards may appoint corporate officers - or officers may be elected directly by the membership (depending on the jurisdiction). The officers and the board may create committees, such as an "architectural control committee", a pool committee, a neighborhood watch committee, and others. Wiki
Quote: Whenever an association is attempting to enforce a provision in the governing documents, any ambiguity will be construed against the association. http://www.condoandhoalawblog.com/search/label/governing%20documents]
Quote: The head of an HOA watchdog group told the Sentinel: "They should have ... disallowed members from running around with guns. If you don't put out guidelines, you are in deep doo-doo if something happens." http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2012/04/homeowners-may-have-to-pay-in-a-trayvon-civil-action.html we haven't public access to their documents, we can't know. Did the HOA have knowledge that Zimmerman owned and carried firearms? Quote: An interview with 3 members of the association defending Zimmerman - when asked if they knew if he had a gun - 2 said no, 1 said YES. http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/homeowner_association_could_be/865/comments-newest.html a comment to an article, and I can't find anything else to verify it. There is also mention that, if they knew he carried a gun, the other homeowners should have been notified of that. Most homeowners' associations do not allow their watch people to carry guns. Other references include this about neighborhood watch carrying guns?:Quote: He had to take a class with other volunteers, where he says deputies told them to never chase a suspect. They aren't allowed to carry weapons. They aren't even allowed to get out of their cars. http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/policy-of-caution-guides-neighborhood-watch-groups/1221327] The National Sheriff's Association sponsors neighborhood watch programs. Their manual says patrol members don't carry weapons. http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mostpopular/story/Should-neighborhood-watch-groups-carry-guns/uLHMnZnxhEqNhOI5lwTcpg.cspx are other neighborhood watch programs which do allow it. According to a CNN poll:Quote: According to the poll, only one in five believe that neighborhood watch members should carry guns, with 76% saying they should not be allowed to be armed. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-26/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting-poll_1_gun-laws-shooting-death-grand-jury?_s=PM:JUSTICE] Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit?Quote: Zimmerman was licensed to carry a firearm. Sanford police chief Bill Lee stated that neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry a gun but have a Constitutional right to do so. Lee further stated, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred." Wiki There is this:Quote:Unfortunately, the HOA was a part of this tragedy. What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”? Did the board ask about Zimmerman’s background, which we now know was not “squeaky clean”? Did the board ask if he carried a weapon? What training did Zimmerman have? Did the board ask any of these questions, before endorsing him in the HOA newsletter as the “go to” guy for community security? According to the National Sheriff’s Association, the HOA community never registered with any official neighborhood watch program. Why not? Did the HOA even know or verify that neighborhood volunteers were following appropriate guidelines? We now know that Zimmerman certainly did not follow the guidelines promulgated by the National Sheriff’s Association for neighborhood watch programs. Chris Tutko who runs the program stated that the manual specifically states that citizens should never pursue or take action on their suspicions. Their job is to report, not shoot. Neighborhood watch volunteers have no more authority than an ordinary citizen. According to NPR, Tutko emphasized that “Firearms are definitely out” for a neighborhood watch program. http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/condoblog/page/2 know that neighborhood watch programs don't need to register with any national group, and theirs had not. But what about due diligence and background check? I'm not going to hunt up answers (if there are any available) to the questions asked in this article...personally I'm guessing they didn't do due diligence or check out his background. From what I'm fiding, many neighborhood watch programs aren't paid much attention to by a lot of HOAs. But they should be, as this situation has shown. On another point:Quote:In an HOA meeting some weeks prior to Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, another resident of the community was kicked out of the meeting because he complained that Zimmerman was profiling him. This strongly implies to me that the HOA knew and approved of what Zimmerman was doing: George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing Quote:At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter . http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html From all of this, it looks like the HOA may be liable...but more important, I think some of these questions will be pertinent at his trial, as well.
Quote: An interview with 3 members of the association defending Zimmerman - when asked if they knew if he had a gun - 2 said no, 1 said YES. http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/homeowner_association_could_be/865/comments-newest.html a comment to an article, and I can't find anything else to verify it. There is also mention that, if they knew he carried a gun, the other homeowners should have been notified of that. Most homeowners' associations do not allow their watch people to carry guns. Other references include this about neighborhood watch carrying guns?:Quote: He had to take a class with other volunteers, where he says deputies told them to never chase a suspect. They aren't allowed to carry weapons. They aren't even allowed to get out of their cars. http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/policy-of-caution-guides-neighborhood-watch-groups/1221327] The National Sheriff's Association sponsors neighborhood watch programs. Their manual says patrol members don't carry weapons. http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mostpopular/story/Should-neighborhood-watch-groups-carry-guns/uLHMnZnxhEqNhOI5lwTcpg.cspx are other neighborhood watch programs which do allow it. According to a CNN poll:Quote: According to the poll, only one in five believe that neighborhood watch members should carry guns, with 76% saying they should not be allowed to be armed. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-26/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting-poll_1_gun-laws-shooting-death-grand-jury?_s=PM:JUSTICE] Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit?Quote: Zimmerman was licensed to carry a firearm. Sanford police chief Bill Lee stated that neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry a gun but have a Constitutional right to do so. Lee further stated, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred." Wiki There is this:Quote:Unfortunately, the HOA was a part of this tragedy. What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”? Did the board ask about Zimmerman’s background, which we now know was not “squeaky clean”? Did the board ask if he carried a weapon? What training did Zimmerman have? Did the board ask any of these questions, before endorsing him in the HOA newsletter as the “go to” guy for community security? According to the National Sheriff’s Association, the HOA community never registered with any official neighborhood watch program. Why not? Did the HOA even know or verify that neighborhood volunteers were following appropriate guidelines? We now know that Zimmerman certainly did not follow the guidelines promulgated by the National Sheriff’s Association for neighborhood watch programs. Chris Tutko who runs the program stated that the manual specifically states that citizens should never pursue or take action on their suspicions. Their job is to report, not shoot. Neighborhood watch volunteers have no more authority than an ordinary citizen. According to NPR, Tutko emphasized that “Firearms are definitely out” for a neighborhood watch program. http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/condoblog/page/2 know that neighborhood watch programs don't need to register with any national group, and theirs had not. But what about due diligence and background check? I'm not going to hunt up answers (if there are any available) to the questions asked in this article...personally I'm guessing they didn't do due diligence or check out his background. From what I'm fiding, many neighborhood watch programs aren't paid much attention to by a lot of HOAs. But they should be, as this situation has shown. On another point:Quote:In an HOA meeting some weeks prior to Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, another resident of the community was kicked out of the meeting because he complained that Zimmerman was profiling him. This strongly implies to me that the HOA knew and approved of what Zimmerman was doing: George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing Quote:At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter . http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html From all of this, it looks like the HOA may be liable...but more important, I think some of these questions will be pertinent at his trial, as well.
Quote: He had to take a class with other volunteers, where he says deputies told them to never chase a suspect. They aren't allowed to carry weapons. They aren't even allowed to get out of their cars. http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/policy-of-caution-guides-neighborhood-watch-groups/1221327] The National Sheriff's Association sponsors neighborhood watch programs. Their manual says patrol members don't carry weapons. http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mostpopular/story/Should-neighborhood-watch-groups-carry-guns/uLHMnZnxhEqNhOI5lwTcpg.cspx are other neighborhood watch programs which do allow it. According to a CNN poll:Quote: According to the poll, only one in five believe that neighborhood watch members should carry guns, with 76% saying they should not be allowed to be armed. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-26/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting-poll_1_gun-laws-shooting-death-grand-jury?_s=PM:JUSTICE] Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit?Quote: Zimmerman was licensed to carry a firearm. Sanford police chief Bill Lee stated that neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry a gun but have a Constitutional right to do so. Lee further stated, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred." Wiki There is this:Quote:Unfortunately, the HOA was a part of this tragedy. What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”? Did the board ask about Zimmerman’s background, which we now know was not “squeaky clean”? Did the board ask if he carried a weapon? What training did Zimmerman have? Did the board ask any of these questions, before endorsing him in the HOA newsletter as the “go to” guy for community security? According to the National Sheriff’s Association, the HOA community never registered with any official neighborhood watch program. Why not? Did the HOA even know or verify that neighborhood volunteers were following appropriate guidelines? We now know that Zimmerman certainly did not follow the guidelines promulgated by the National Sheriff’s Association for neighborhood watch programs. Chris Tutko who runs the program stated that the manual specifically states that citizens should never pursue or take action on their suspicions. Their job is to report, not shoot. Neighborhood watch volunteers have no more authority than an ordinary citizen. According to NPR, Tutko emphasized that “Firearms are definitely out” for a neighborhood watch program. http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/condoblog/page/2 know that neighborhood watch programs don't need to register with any national group, and theirs had not. But what about due diligence and background check? I'm not going to hunt up answers (if there are any available) to the questions asked in this article...personally I'm guessing they didn't do due diligence or check out his background. From what I'm fiding, many neighborhood watch programs aren't paid much attention to by a lot of HOAs. But they should be, as this situation has shown. On another point:Quote:In an HOA meeting some weeks prior to Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, another resident of the community was kicked out of the meeting because he complained that Zimmerman was profiling him. This strongly implies to me that the HOA knew and approved of what Zimmerman was doing: George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing Quote:At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter . http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html From all of this, it looks like the HOA may be liable...but more important, I think some of these questions will be pertinent at his trial, as well.
Quote: According to the poll, only one in five believe that neighborhood watch members should carry guns, with 76% saying they should not be allowed to be armed. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-26/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting-poll_1_gun-laws-shooting-death-grand-jury?_s=PM:JUSTICE] Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit?Quote: Zimmerman was licensed to carry a firearm. Sanford police chief Bill Lee stated that neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry a gun but have a Constitutional right to do so. Lee further stated, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred." Wiki There is this:Quote:Unfortunately, the HOA was a part of this tragedy. What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”? Did the board ask about Zimmerman’s background, which we now know was not “squeaky clean”? Did the board ask if he carried a weapon? What training did Zimmerman have? Did the board ask any of these questions, before endorsing him in the HOA newsletter as the “go to” guy for community security? According to the National Sheriff’s Association, the HOA community never registered with any official neighborhood watch program. Why not? Did the HOA even know or verify that neighborhood volunteers were following appropriate guidelines? We now know that Zimmerman certainly did not follow the guidelines promulgated by the National Sheriff’s Association for neighborhood watch programs. Chris Tutko who runs the program stated that the manual specifically states that citizens should never pursue or take action on their suspicions. Their job is to report, not shoot. Neighborhood watch volunteers have no more authority than an ordinary citizen. According to NPR, Tutko emphasized that “Firearms are definitely out” for a neighborhood watch program. http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/condoblog/page/2 know that neighborhood watch programs don't need to register with any national group, and theirs had not. But what about due diligence and background check? I'm not going to hunt up answers (if there are any available) to the questions asked in this article...personally I'm guessing they didn't do due diligence or check out his background. From what I'm fiding, many neighborhood watch programs aren't paid much attention to by a lot of HOAs. But they should be, as this situation has shown. On another point:Quote:In an HOA meeting some weeks prior to Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, another resident of the community was kicked out of the meeting because he complained that Zimmerman was profiling him. This strongly implies to me that the HOA knew and approved of what Zimmerman was doing: George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing Quote:At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter . http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html From all of this, it looks like the HOA may be liable...but more important, I think some of these questions will be pertinent at his trial, as well.
Quote: Zimmerman was licensed to carry a firearm. Sanford police chief Bill Lee stated that neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry a gun but have a Constitutional right to do so. Lee further stated, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred." Wiki
Quote:Unfortunately, the HOA was a part of this tragedy. What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”? Did the board ask about Zimmerman’s background, which we now know was not “squeaky clean”? Did the board ask if he carried a weapon? What training did Zimmerman have? Did the board ask any of these questions, before endorsing him in the HOA newsletter as the “go to” guy for community security? According to the National Sheriff’s Association, the HOA community never registered with any official neighborhood watch program. Why not? Did the HOA even know or verify that neighborhood volunteers were following appropriate guidelines? We now know that Zimmerman certainly did not follow the guidelines promulgated by the National Sheriff’s Association for neighborhood watch programs. Chris Tutko who runs the program stated that the manual specifically states that citizens should never pursue or take action on their suspicions. Their job is to report, not shoot. Neighborhood watch volunteers have no more authority than an ordinary citizen. According to NPR, Tutko emphasized that “Firearms are definitely out” for a neighborhood watch program. http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/condoblog/page/2 know that neighborhood watch programs don't need to register with any national group, and theirs had not. But what about due diligence and background check? I'm not going to hunt up answers (if there are any available) to the questions asked in this article...personally I'm guessing they didn't do due diligence or check out his background. From what I'm fiding, many neighborhood watch programs aren't paid much attention to by a lot of HOAs. But they should be, as this situation has shown. On another point:Quote:In an HOA meeting some weeks prior to Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, another resident of the community was kicked out of the meeting because he complained that Zimmerman was profiling him. This strongly implies to me that the HOA knew and approved of what Zimmerman was doing: George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing Quote:At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter . http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html From all of this, it looks like the HOA may be liable...but more important, I think some of these questions will be pertinent at his trial, as well.
Quote:In an HOA meeting some weeks prior to Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, another resident of the community was kicked out of the meeting because he complained that Zimmerman was profiling him. This strongly implies to me that the HOA knew and approved of what Zimmerman was doing: George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing Quote:At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter . http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html
Quote:At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:37 AM
BLUEHANDEDMENACE
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:49 AM
HERO
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:50 AM
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:56 AM
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:13 AM
STORYMARK
Quote:Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association. Your analogy has zero to do w this fact.
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:26 AM
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:27 AM
OONJERAH
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:30 AM
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:15 PM
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:25 PM
PIRATENEWS
John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:50 PM
MINCINGBEAST
Quote:Originally posted by Hero: There is no liability for the Association. Lets say the fella next door murders his wife, are you liable? No. How about your home owners association? No. H
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 1:43 PM
Quote:Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association.
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:37 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Originally posted by Storymark: Quote:Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association. Your analogy has zero to do w this fact. Hero isn't real fond of facts when it comes to this case - he has made that very clear. "Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 3:27 PM
CHRISISALL
Quote:Originally posted by HERO: This watch was an informal voluntary random association. There is nothing to sue.
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 3:53 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 4:40 PM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:31 AM
FREMDFIRMA
Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:52 AM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:15 AM
Quote: Did the board hire or appoint him?
Quote: What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”?
Quote: As the only person to volunteer when the homeowners association wanted to organize a community watch, Zimmerman was appointed coordinator by his neighbors, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department. The February 2012 homeowner association newsletter requested that crime victims "call our captain, George Zimmerman" after calling the police.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:31 AM
Quote:Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: Heh, thats pretty slick Frem, but sadly would never fly in Florida. Down here, if a community has an association, you simply are not able to purchase in that community and NOT be a member of the association. Not all communities have associations, but the ones that do, they are fairly powerful in terms of what they can regulate and get away with. There is some difference between HOAs and condo associations and how they are run, but all of the officers ARE elected every year....my buddy often gets involved in recall fights in communities when one group of homeowners wants the current board disposed of...it makes for some seriously entertaining battles, you wouldnt believe some of the shenanigans people try and get away with...well, U might Frem, but most wouldnt.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:32 AM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:36 AM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:40 AM
Quote:Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: Frem, I would be fascinated to see how u pulled that off in the contract. Those kinds of maneuverings were always my favorite part of working in RE and RE law.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:44 AM
Quote:Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA: Rev very much enjoys reminding people I've worked more people over in my life with Ms-Office than I ever did with a tire iron... -Frem
Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:04 AM
Quote: I really feel for the other homeowners, who ultimately had little to nothing to do with putting Zimmerman on their streets, but could well end up paying out the nose because of this incident. It isnt really fair to them
Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:14 AM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:30 AM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:06 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Oonjerah: If they are so prevalent & popular, then by now, practical standards have been established. (Yes/No?) Failure to adopt same could be bad for The Retreat at Twin Lakes HOA.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:10 AM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:24 AM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 9:39 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Hero: Rule 52: No homeowner can walk outside their home after dark or contact the police to report suspicious activity. Yeah, I'm sure you'll find that in a lot of Florida by-laws.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:51 AM
Quote:Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: Nice job ignoring all the posts with specific relevant details, Hero, and responding to the one post asking the question instead. Its almost like you are deliberatly avoiding the issue! Oh, wait....
Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:06 AM
M52NICKERSON
DALEK!
Quote:Originally posted by HERO: Quote:Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association. Was he?
Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:27 AM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:36 AM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:34 PM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:03 PM
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:16 PM
NEWOLDBROWNCOAT
Quote:Originally posted by Oonjerah: Help: Couple days ago, I saw at least two articles that said basic Neighborhood Watch guidelines say: Observe and report. Do Not carry a gun. Do not leave your car. Do not follow suspects. (i.e., Do NOT Play Cop!) ... I can't find those comments now.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:37 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Hero: I've already given the final word on the issue.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:56 PM
Quote:Originally posted by chrisisall: The word is "dick'. Thank you, God. Your "final word" means so much.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:07 PM
Quote:Originally posted by HERO: Hero is right...Hero is right...
Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:59 PM
Quote:Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: Also, that is very strong Re: the contract, down here the condo or homeowner's addendum is pretty much standard with he contract, everybody knows its coming.
Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:11 PM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: The crime rate down here (FL) is not higher then other places. HOA's are popular because we have so many subdivisions. These all have common area that have to be kept up so HOAs are deeded into the properties requiring anyone who buys the home to pay the dues and follow the restrictions on the deed. I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Friday, April 20, 2012 1:37 AM
Friday, April 20, 2012 2:38 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: but what is the story with the 'gated' part? Why do people feel the need to live in an excluded area?
Friday, April 20, 2012 4:25 AM
Quote: Martin assumed the risk of his injury by entering into the gated community of which he was not a member.
Quote: Twin Lakes is actually not entirely gated. There is also no guard at the gate, there are no high fences. The community is just modest condos, Julison says, not protected with the electronic equivalent of a castle moat.... The short answer is no. No one ‘cleared’ anything with George Zimmerman, because no one had a duty to do so..... Unlike with real police, and real security guards, on real duty, there was nothing in the set-up, no protocol in place, to safeguard exit as well as entry. There was nothing to inform George Zimmerman of the difference between suspicious characters, on one hand, and neighbors and their guests on the other.... The Sanford Police Department letter to the community residents the day after the Feb. 26 shooting identifies Trayvon Martin, not by name, as “another resident of the community"....“There was not any sort of organized system,” said one of the residents in the news report." http://www.margieburns.com/2012/04/trayvon-martin-question-3-when-trayvon-martin-was-cleared-to-enter-the-gated-community-did-anyone-notify-neighborhood-watch/]
Quote: I saw at least two articles that said basic Neighborhood Watch guidelines say: Observe and report. Do Not carry a gun. Do not leave your car. Do not follow suspects. (i.e., Do NOT Play Cop!) ... I can't find those comments now.
Quote: The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous." As the article states, Zimmerman "blatantly violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual" http://abcnewsradioonline.com/national-news/florida-teens-shooter-ignored-neighborhood-watch-guidelines.html
Quote: Participants get on-going training in how to protect themselves and their property. Personal safety awareness, whether you are at home, in public, or in your vehicle, and knowing what “to do and not to do” ..... What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of the law enforcement agency. (emphasis in article) ..... 10. Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime. Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest. The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department. (emphasis in article) http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf is no mention of neighborhood watch persons not carrying weapons, but he nonetheless violated the other noted tenants of the Sanford neighborhood-watch guidelines. Not carrying weapons is mentioned in numerous articles on the incident and neighborhood watches. As to gated communities in general, we have them out here, too. I think in a number of states with high population, in many upper-middle-class neighborhoods they're not unusual. Also in some areas where crime is higher. We have gated communities in cheapo apartment complexes in one of our more crime-ridden areas. The gated communities we have out here require you to call in or have an electronic "key" to open the gates, and they are truly gated, there is no other way to get in and high fences, some with deterrents on the top. Some are really strict, with a gate keeper and people have to check in and out, others are looser, where you only have to call who you're visiting (like in many apartment buildings) to be "buzzed in". This community wasn't completely gated, you could come and go without using the main gate, so it wasn't truly a "gated community". Around here, aside from the Canal (mentioned above), it's only upper-middle-class housing areas that have gated communities; the upper class, of course, has individual gated grounds. In the case in question,Quote: Twin Lakes is actually not entirely gated. There is also no guard at the gate, there are no high fences. The community is just modest condosnot protected with the electronic equivalent of a castle moat. So the Gate Access Form provided by The Retreat at Twin Lakes Homeowners Association could be considered somewhat misleading. From first cite, aboveA comment to that article by someone who lives in a similar community states:Quote:I live in a development with gates but no guard. The gates are for vehicles only, and there is no barrier to pedestrians. The “gate access form” is just a form that is provided for residents so they can tell their visitors what buttons to push at the gate to contact for them and to order remote devices and set access numbers for their own cars. The form from the Twin Lakes development looks just like the ones we use for those purposes. There is nothing on the form provided that indicates that visitors, whether driving or walking, had to be “cleared” to be on the grounds, carry a pass, etc. I think that covers everything since I was last here...what IS it with this "Hero" person, seriously? Does he believe he is the end-all, be-all or something? IS he a lawyer? I gotta say, Quote: More emotional blathering. I suggest you run yourself a nice hot bath, have a good cry, and leave the higher brain stuff to people who aren't crippled by their hormones. It'll be ok. You've ranted enough about big bad gated communities and people wanting to help keep their neighborhoods safe. It will be alright. Shush now, take your medicine...Hero is right...Hero is right...Sounds an awful lot like someone else here...?
Quote: Twin Lakes is actually not entirely gated. There is also no guard at the gate, there are no high fences. The community is just modest condosnot protected with the electronic equivalent of a castle moat. So the Gate Access Form provided by The Retreat at Twin Lakes Homeowners Association could be considered somewhat misleading. From first cite, above
Quote:I live in a development with gates but no guard. The gates are for vehicles only, and there is no barrier to pedestrians. The “gate access form” is just a form that is provided for residents so they can tell their visitors what buttons to push at the gate to contact for them and to order remote devices and set access numbers for their own cars. The form from the Twin Lakes development looks just like the ones we use for those purposes. There is nothing on the form provided that indicates that visitors, whether driving or walking, had to be “cleared” to be on the grounds, carry a pass, etc.
Quote: More emotional blathering. I suggest you run yourself a nice hot bath, have a good cry, and leave the higher brain stuff to people who aren't crippled by their hormones. It'll be ok. You've ranted enough about big bad gated communities and people wanting to help keep their neighborhoods safe. It will be alright. Shush now, take your medicine...Hero is right...Hero is right...
Friday, April 20, 2012 10:30 AM
Friday, April 20, 2012 1:01 PM
Friday, April 20, 2012 1:36 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: The 'stand your ground' is very alien to me. And feels wrong.
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