Church In State - The GOP, Russia, and a Riot by ANTHONYT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Church In State - The GOP, Russia, and a Riot

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, November 24, 2022 08:25
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VIEWED: 3157
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Friday, June 1, 2012 11:41 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/25/world/europe/russia-punk-band-arrest/ind
ex.html?iref=obnetwork

Hello,

The Russian political music group 'Pussy Riot' is in jail because they sang a song in Church without permission. They have not been charged with trespassing, however. Rather, they have been charged with 'Hooliganism,' something vague which could result in years behind bars. All of this, because they sang their song as a political protest against the close relationship of the Orthodox Church with the leaders of Russia.

With members of the GOP trying to push laws that forward a religious agenda in this country, our native lovers of freedom should extend warm wishes and support to Russian sisters in distress. Our local 99% protesters are probably already facing potential arrests for 'Hooliganism' under a variety of other names, and our Homosexual population is very much feeling the pain of Church and State enjoying unwholesome relations.

--Anthony

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Friday, June 1, 2012 2:06 PM

OONJERAH

Heretics will be burned at the Stake!

. . . in public.

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Friday, June 1, 2012 2:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Well, an American in America was sentenced to 25 years in prison for receiving a pamphlet on how to support jihad, so hooliganism prisons can't be far behind.

It seems the only way to secure our freedom is by locking it away in a prison where nobody can get to it.

But on the bright side, the state of Kansas is now safe from the impending takeover by Sharia Law that has been such a threat to that state! I guess we can all breathe easier tonight knowing that Kansas is on The Wall...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Monday, July 30, 2012 5:40 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Some thread necromancy, in case anyone would like to discuss the ongoing situation in a thread not laced with photographs that may limit venue.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

With members of the GOP trying to push laws that forward a religious agenda in this country, our native lovers of freedom should extend warm wishes and support to Russian sisters in distress.

I don't see how their actions of dissent, to try to get Putin tossed out of power, have anything to do w/ what the GOP are doing here in this country.

Care to elaborate ?

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 2:54 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Anthony

You might just as well ask if freedom lovers shouldn't protest the Democrats' support of extending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008.

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Anthony

You might just as well ask if freedom lovers shouldn't protest the Democrats' support of extending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008.

Hello,

They should! But this is a thread about allowing religious preferences to permeate into law.
I will be very happy to discuss your topic in the thread devoted to it.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:21 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Anthony

You might just as well ask if freedom lovers shouldn't protest the Democrats' support of extending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008.

Hello,

They should! But this is a thread about allowing religious preferences to permeate into law.
I will be very happy to discuss your topic in the thread devoted to it.

--Anthony

Not really sure what the Russians prosecuting Pussy Riot for hooliganism in a church has to do with allowing religious preferences to permeate into law. They're being prosecuted for criticizing the government, not for their religious or moral beliefs.

On the other hand, you might consider that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008 is most likely gonna come down hardest on Muslims, which has about as much to do with religion as the prosecution of Pussy Riot.

Hate to say it, but it just looks like you were looking for an excuse to get "GOP" in there somewhere. Did you send this out in a email to everyone?

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:32 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Anthony

You might just as well ask if freedom lovers shouldn't protest the Democrats' support of extending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008.

Hello,

They should! But this is a thread about allowing religious preferences to permeate into law.
I will be very happy to discuss your topic in the thread devoted to it.

--Anthony

Not really sure what the Russians prosecuting Pussy Riot for hooliganism in a church has to do with allowing religious preferences to permeate into law. They're being prosecuted for criticizing the government, not for their religious or moral beliefs.

On the other hand, you might consider that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008 is most likely gonna come down hardest on Muslims, which has about as much to do with religion as the prosecution of Pussy Riot.

Hate to say it, but it just looks like you were looking for an excuse to get "GOP" in there somewhere. Did you send this out in a email to everyone?

Hello,

You are adorable, Geezer.

They were criticizing the government for having an overly chummy relationship with the Orthodox Church. Creeping connections between Church and State are very much on topic. I would be very happy if the GOP would surrender all agendas to impose religion and religious moral standards on lawmaking, and then I would never need include the GOP in such a post again.

Or are you content with this continuing trend of the GOP agenda? Don't you want a better, more freedom focused GOP?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
They were criticizing the government for having an overly chummy relationship with the Orthodox Church. Creeping connections between Church and State are very much on topic. I would be very happy if the GOP would surrender all agendas to impose religion and religious moral standards on lawmaking, and then I would never need include the GOP in such a post again.

But the 'creeping connections between Church and State' in Russia have very little to do with imposing religious and moral standards, and more to do with controlling criticizm of the government from the pulpit. The church is in a pretty powerless position, and knows that they had better toe the line (be chummy) or get shut down. There's no big conservative religious voting bloc, and the elections are pretty much pre-determined anyway, so what power does the church have? They go along to get along.

ETA: Pussy Riot.

Just love that name.

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:58 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
They were criticizing the government for having an overly chummy relationship with the Orthodox Church. Creeping connections between Church and State are very much on topic. I would be very happy if the GOP would surrender all agendas to impose religion and religious moral standards on lawmaking, and then I would never need include the GOP in such a post again.

But the 'creeping connections between Church and State' in Russia have very little to do with imposing religious and moral standards, and more to do with controlling criticizm of the government from the pulpit. The church is in a pretty powerless position, and knows that they had better toe the line (be chummy) or get shut down. There's no big conservative religious voting bloc, and the elections are pretty much pre-determined anyway, so what power does the church have? They go along to get along.

ETA: Pussy Riot.

Just love that name.

Hello,

The name is a riot.

Of course, you can see how in a world where the government enforces religious concepts of morality, the Church in turn is likely to promote such governments. The snake feeds itself. It is a terrible path to go down, and until we abandon including religious morality in our lawmaking, we risk ending up in the same place.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 7:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I see my post is being ignored. That figures. But the way I see it, the fuss has more to do w/ Putin and his tight control on free speech, than fear of Church doctrine being imposed on the public via the state. The gripe seems to be that Putin is using the R.O.C. for his own purposes. Russia has an entirely different history and culture than what we have here in the United States, and the attempts to link one issue w/ what's going on in another country seem far fetched, at best.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
[They should! But this is a thread about allowing religious preferences to permeate into law.

Are you really, really sure you wanna have that discussion with me around ?
I'm askin first, cause... well... you know, or you should....

-F

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:23 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

The name is a riot.

I agree. I do wonder if the translation to English is sort'a bowdlerizing a more basic word into 'pussy', though.

Quote:
Of course, you can see how in a world where the government enforces religious concepts of morality, the Church in turn is likely to promote such governments. The snake feeds itself. It is a terrible path to go down, and until we abandon including religious morality in our lawmaking, we risk ending up in the same place.

I see this.

I'm just not too sure that the Russian government is doing this.

I find it hard to believe, for example, that a Russian legislator is concerned at all that his religious conservative constituancy will vote him out of office because he doesn't support bans on abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.

I figure that the relationship between the Russina government and the Russian Orthodox Church is more like this:

"Okay, Patriarch Kirill, if you play nice, we'll let you have your church, and palaces, and rituals. Criticize us in the least, and Russia will have an Official State Religion, and you won't be part of it."

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
[They should! But this is a thread about allowing religious preferences to permeate into law.

Are you really, really sure you wanna have that discussion with me around ?
I'm askin first, cause... well... you know, or you should....

-F

Hello Frem,

You always have the best research and anectodes to share. I almost believe there is a file somewhere in your office detailing incidents, because your ability to bring the dangers of government-religious collusion to light have always impressed me.

But only if you wish to.

As for people who may argue that Russia's weak Religion/Government barrier is completely different from and not worth comparing to our weak Religion/Government barrier, I have to disagree. Both have a net negative result on freedom in society.

Lovers of freedom should not hesitate to decry those who seek to impose religious mores into laws confining human behavior. The GOP needs to fix this, because it is one of their chief failings. That's why the GOP is in the title of a thread called CHURCH IN STATE. It's a problem in the U.S. largely attributable to that party and their proudly declared attitudes about incorporating religious principles into supposedly secular law.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:28 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
"Okay, Patriarch Kirill, if you play nice, we'll let you have your church, and palaces, and rituals. Criticize us in the least, and Russia will have an Official State Religion, and you won't be part of it."

Hello,

More succinctly, "You support us, we'll support you."

Which is not the relationship between religion and state that one would wish for in order to maximize freedom.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Gotta love how Anthony the coward and liar resorts to his childish, punk ass games of his 'invisible sig', that isn't rally all that invisible , now is it ?

Dude, you take yourself FAR too seriously.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, you gonna have to wait for it - busy coordinating/commisserating with another local security service over the decline in criminal quality and competency , thanks to an especially stupid one who's utterly pointless and futile attempt at crime has left us with an equally pointless paperwork hassle.
*eyeroll*

ETA: case in point, even political opposition has fallen on pretty hard times these days, as the punkassbitch above so clearly demonstrates.

-F

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 3:14 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
More succinctly, "You support us, we'll support you."

Not at all. More like "Be quiet, church, or we'll crush you." I can't see any evidence of the Russian government pushing a religious or moral agenda at the church's urging, or of any Russian politicians worried about losing votes if they offend the values of the church.

Seems to me that Pussy Riot was protesting, not the government's enforcement of the church's religious or moral agenda, but the lack of complaint from the church about the government's abridgement of freedom and democracy - the lack of courage shown by the church in failing to risk the wrath of the State by standing up for the people.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 4:44 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/07/31/russia-activist-flees-country
-under-threat-of-psychiatric-incarceration/

Hello Geezer,

The Church and State have become so close that the government intervenes when people critique the church. In essence, the Church has become a government propaganda wing. The government protects the Church the same way a man protects his limbs from harm.

The Church and State are becoming indistinguishable from one another. But the path to this occurring is not so important as what happens when it occurs: The Church and Government become the same organism, each supporting the other.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 4:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_russi1.htm

Hello,

Here we see additional evidence of the Church benefitting from state protections. Note that the blogger in the previous post is still charged with a crime against the church. A crime enforced by the state. The crime? Speaking in opposition to the church.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:06 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
The Church and State have become so close that the government intervenes when people critique the church. In essence, the Church has become a government propaganda wing. The government protects the Church the same way a man protects his limbs from harm.

Still trying to see the relationship to "With members of the GOP trying to push laws that forward a religious agenda in this country..." when there is no evidence that the Russian government is trying to push laws that forward any of the church's religious or moral goals. All they're doing is keeping dissent under control. They're surely not doing it for the church's benefit, but using the church as a stalking horse to control speech that is at least as critical of the government as it is of the church.

Once again, show me any concern in the Russian government over the political power of the church, like there is in conservative political circles in the U.S. You can't, because the Russian church has no power, but lives only on sufference of the government.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:19 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If you're wondering what laws have been passed to benefit the Church, you need look no further than laws which enshrine the Orthodox Chruch and protect it from criticism.

With the Church a willing propaganda arm of the government, the government is prepared to protect the Church's interests.

In the U.S., we have a government group prepared to back Church interests, and Church groups prepared to support candidates who do so.

You are stuck in a chicken and egg argument as though it mattered. At the end of the day the result is food for oppression. It's the same whether the government is leaning on and protecting the church or the church is leaning on and supporting the government or even whether it is a power-neutral mutually beneficial symbiosis. It's an unhealthy situation when the government and Church become entwined. It is the enemy of freedom, and right now the GOP is the leading political presence seeking that sort of relationship with religion in the United States.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:33 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
You are stuck in a chicken and egg argument as though it mattered.

I think it does matter.

The U.S. situation is like you and I deciding to rob a bank, so we go in together and take the money.

The Russian situation is like me kidnapping you, strapping a bomb to your chest under a bulletproof vest, forcing you to rob a bank with threat of blowing you up, then taking the money and bomb and leaving you locked up until I need another bank robbed.

The bank still gets robbed, so some might say there's no difference, but I think you'd feel there was.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think you are mischaracterizing the situation rather dramatically in this last example. It's more like this:

The Russian government says to the Orthodox Church, "You will support us, and we will protect and enforce your primacy. You don't support us, and one of your competitors will. Then they will enjoy our favor and you will be cast in with the unfavored religions."

And the correct answer to that is, "I will not politicize my church. Do what you will."

And the answer they got was, "Yes, Sure, I want to be the number one religion and stomp on all the others. I will do what you say."

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, August 2, 2012 2:36 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

I think you are mischaracterizing the situation rather dramatically in this last example. It's more like this:

The Russian government says to the Orthodox Church, "You will support us, and we will protect and enforce your primacy. You don't support us, and one of your competitors will. Then they will enjoy our favor and you will be cast in with the unfavored religions."

And the correct answer to that is, "I will not politicize my church. Do what you will."

And the answer they got was, "Yes, Sure, I want to be the number one religion and stomp on all the others. I will do what you say."

Considering that the next largest religious group (based on self-identification) in Russia after the Orthodox church (at 70.2%) is Islam (11.7%), and no other group much exceeds 1%, I'm not really seeing a threat to replace Orthodoxy happening.

What I do see is a threat to pass restrictive laws against the Orthodox Church, deny it access to media, agitate against it, or take direct action against its leaders. Considering the success the government has had quashing media dissent by the simple expedient of killing troublesome reporters, such actions probably seem very possible to the church.

It's admirable that you would say, "Go ahead and blow me up. I won't rob a bank for you."

Others might see the possibility of keeping their church working at all as the best of a bad situation. Stay alive and hope for an opportunity to accomplish some good.

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Thursday, August 2, 2012 5:06 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Geezer,

I think you are again misrepresenting the situation. The Orthodox church isn't merely being allowed to operate or exist. They are being allowed to thrive. All other religions are enjoying some level of suppression, but the Orthodox church is being actively supported and endorsed and protected by law.

That you don't see this as a devil's bargain surprises me.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 3, 2012 3:43 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello Geezer,

I think you are again misrepresenting the situation. The Orthodox church isn't merely being allowed to operate or exist. They are being allowed to thrive. All other religions are enjoying some level of suppression, but the Orthodox church is being actively supported and endorsed and protected by law.

That you don't see this as a devil's bargain surprises me.

--Anthony

If a well-behaved and valuable slave gets treated better than the other slaves, it doesn't make him any less a slave - still subject to punishment by the master if he steps out of line.

Apparently during the Glasnost period the church was allowed to come back, but no senior church official could take up their position without approval of the KGB. I expect the current church administration understands that if they get too far out of line, the government will make this happen again.

I'm not saying that the church in Russia hasn't made a devil's bargain with the government. I'm just noting that sometimes there are only bad options and worse options. Perhaps a church with limited autonomy is better than one with no autonomy at all.

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Thursday, November 24, 2022 8:25 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Belarus President Lukashenko thanks Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia for his “tireless work”

https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/11/20/belarus-lukashenko-praises-patri
arch-kirill/

Are they back in jail?

maybe not

Pussy Riot: 'Don’t keep silent, go to the streets with your own actions and protest'

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/pussy-riot-don-t-keep-120000924.html

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