REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

George Zimmerman, the Constitution, and the shifting politics of self-defense

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, July 8, 2012 09:41
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Saturday, July 7, 2012 7:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


So it all comes back to the Second Amendment again to gun owners. What a surprise (NOT).
Quote:

Within 24 hours of Seminole County, Fla., Judge Kenneth Lester issuing a stern order allowing George Zimmerman, the defendant in the Trayvon Martin murder case, to post a $1 million bond, the volunteer neighborhood watchman received over $25,000 in donations, bringing his defense war chest to nearly a quarter of a million dollars.

Mark O’Mara, Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, suggested on Friday that many Americans have given because they feel “this case is an affront to their constitutional rights,” namely the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms."

To be sure, many commentators say the case has mainly to do with Zimmerman violating Martin’s equal protection rights by profiling him and then illegally depriving the boy of his basic constitutional right of life.

But judging by the speed and size of donations to the defense fund, it’s clear the case continues to provoke a separate debate about America’s shifting stance on gun rights and the constitutional case for self-defense.

“People … are definitely thinking and talking about it,” Terrence Mayfield, 61, a Florida gun permit holder, told the New York Times a few weeks before the latest bond hearing. “This whole thing rests on who threw the first punch. Either the gun saved Zimmerman’s life or we had a cowboy, someone who thought because he had a gun things could escalate.”

To Trayvon supporters, the fact that a half-white, half-Hispanic man went free after profiling Trayvon, an innocent black boy, as a criminal, chasing after him, and then shooting the unarmed boy reeked of racial inequality and even institutional racism. Others say Martin is the only one who had a legitimate self-defense claim as he lashed out against a combative stranger following him on a dark street.

While even Judge Lester this week called Zimmerman manipulative, evidence shows he did pass a non-admissible “stress test” that suggested he was telling the truth when he said he feared for his life.

While self-defense isn’t expressly written into the Constitution, legal scholars have long argued that the constitutional precept of “liberty” implicitly means “the right of self-defense against unlawful violence,” according to Thomas Cooley, a 19th century constitutional scholar.

But 40 US states, meanwhile, include in their constitutions both the right to bear arms and to use them in self-defense – concepts that states like Florida and 23 others have built on in recent years with so-called “castle doctrine” and “stand your ground” laws that expressly state that lawful citizens have “no duty to retreat” in the face of an attack, even in public.

Zimmerman’s main defense will likely be to seek immunity under the state’s stand your ground law.

Critics point to a recent study suggesting that such laws have significantly increased the rate of gun-related killings in states that have adopted them, as the number of what the FBI calls “justified killings” has risen in concord. That study, by Texas A&M researchers, moreover suggests that the laws have not had a significant deterrent effect on criminals.

Yet as concerns about Constitutional gun rights swirl around Zimmerman’s defense, the case itself may have sparked more than debate, and may have inspired more Americans to actually use guns to protect themselves and their property, suggests University of Georgia emeritus law professor Ron Carlson.

“The existence of this sort of statute places an atmosphere or climate over various forms of human combat,” he said. “It helps to create a mindset that is conducive to resistance when one is placed in a conflict situation.”

Such readings of America’s fundamental laws, especially as spurred on by the Trayvon Martin case, trouble some commentators, including Walter Rodgers, a former Monitor columnist, who wrote recently that “Mexico, Colombia, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Gaza and the West are awash in guns. Their societies are not ones that Americans should emulate.”


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Saturday, July 7, 2012 7:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I don't have any qualms about being a society 'awash in guns,' but I do take umbrage at Rodger's suggestion that a society 'awash in guns' should be taken as kin to oppressive societies, as though the existence of firearms is the catalyst for ruin, or is the primary factor in emulating a style of government.

I think the problem that prevents people from embracing what I call 'reasonable' gun and self-defense laws is the perception that there is a body of people who do not want reasonable anything, and will use any constraint or limitation on gun ownership or self-defense as a stepping stone to creating a society of disarmed and defenseless civilians.

I think if the Democratic party in particular would come out in broad favor of responsible gun ownership and thoughtful self-defense, it would do a lot to diminish the pushback from the other side. If the idea of owning guns and defending oneself is expressed as an intrinsic, undeniable right, then a constructive dialogue might emerge about how best to employ that right.

But there are many in the party who oppose private gun ownership and who believe that self-defense should begin and end with a call to authority. As long as that is the case, you will see people pulling away from anything 'reasonable' as they flee from the idea of disarmament and helplessness.

--Anthony







Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, July 7, 2012 3:14 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I think the problem that prevents people from embracing what I call 'reasonable' gun and self-defense laws is the perception that there is a body of people who do not want reasonable anything, and will use any constraint or limitation on gun ownership or self-defense as a stepping stone to creating a society of disarmed and defenseless civilians.


Anthony, it's not a "perception" when they outright ADMIT it.
And so long as they do so, I will give them not one inch of ground, and take what I can.

That said, WHY folks make this whole Zimmerman thing about guns I have no idea, gun or no gun he was very wrong in his actions, and while he may or may not be LEGALLY guilty of second degree murder, I believe that he is so morally.

-Frem

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Saturday, July 7, 2012 5:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Mark O’Mara, Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, suggested on Friday that many Americans have given because they feel “this case is an affront to their constitutional rights,” namely the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.""

"I think the problem that prevents people from embracing what I call 'reasonable' gun and self-defense laws is the perception that there is a body of people who do not want reasonable anything, and will use any constraint or limitation on gun ownership ...
I think if the Democratic party in particular would come out in broad favor of responsible gun ownership and thoughtful self-defense, it would do a lot to diminish the pushback from the other side."

WTF? Really? This strikes me as being the same kind of 'logic' a man who beats his wife might use: "she made me do it". It's all you people making us do this.

Do you think 'stand your ground' laws are reasonable?
Do you think Zimmerman's actions were reasonable?
Do you think the people who support Zimmerman's actions are reasonable?

Who do you think is being unreasonable?
Who should you be calling to reason?



SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Saturday, July 7, 2012 10:48 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

WTF? Really? This strikes me as being the same kind of 'logic' a man who beats his wife might use: "she made me do it". It's all you people making us do this.


Hello,

Yes, people who want to own weapons and defend themselves are exactly like men who beat their wives.

Quote:

Do you think 'stand your ground' laws are reasonable?


I think the idea behind them is very reasonable. I remember the alternative. However, I think the implementation may leave something to be desired.

Quote:

Do you think Zimmerman's actions were reasonable?


I don't think it's reasonable to go looking for a fight.

Quote:

Do you think the people who support Zimmerman's actions are reasonable?


No, I think their support is motivated by fear. Some of them are suffering from xenophobia and racism, and others are afraid of having their rights eroded.

You know, there's a reason why that 'cold dead hands' thing gets said. All of that grunting bravado didn't just spontaneously sprout from barren earth. In a world where being allowed to have a weapon is unchallenged, nobody feels the need to shake their fists about it.

Quote:

Who do you think is being unreasonable?
Who should you be calling to reason?



The people who think a person shouldn't be allowed to stand and defend himself? Unreasonable.

The people who think a person should be allowed to pick a fight and intimidate others? Unreasonable.

--Anthony









Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 8, 2012 12:00 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Yes, people who want to own weapons and defend themselves are exactly like men who beat their wives."

Wow. Way to straw-man an argument AnthonyT. Well done on that. Want to try again to address your faulty logic, where you put the blame for unreasonable gun-nuts on democrats instead of where it belongs?



"You know, there's a reason why that 'cold dead hands' thing gets said. ... In a world where being allowed to have a weapon is unchallenged, nobody feels the need to shake their fists about it."

Now see, here you're doing it again. THOSE DEMOCRATS are MAKING me do this! It's THEIR FAULT that instead of me making REASONABLE proposals they're FORCING me to be EXTREME!

Also, since YOU ae making this argument "where being allowed to have a weapon is UNCHALLENGED" are you now putting yourself in the camp where there should be no restrictions at all?



"I think the idea behind them is very reasonable. I remember the alternative. However, I think the implementation may leave something to be desired."

See, my measure of the reasonableness of a law is whether it results in reasonable outcomes. If more people are being 'justifiably' killed to prevent crime without having an impact on crime, is that a reasonable result?



"The people who think a person shouldn't be allowed to stand and defend himself? Unreasonable."

Pray tell, who has proposed that? Anyone here? "Democrats" in general? Got a name? Description? Anything other than a faceless vague notion of 'the people who'?





SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 8, 2012 5:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, I feel like I'm seeing your "purist" thing coming to the fore again. This "if it isn't all, it's nothing" attitude so many gun bunnies have--and yes, I mean gun bunnies, not people like my husband, who probably has four or five guns in his closet but still thinks 30-round mags and automatic weapons, etc., do far more harm than good.

The NRA has done an excellent job on you guys. They will not accept ANY curb--or even imagined curb--on ANYTHING. You talk about black and white, that's about as obsessive a mentality as the left is supposed to have. And the thing is, gun manufacturers and DO NOT GIVE A SHIT about your Second-Amendment rights; they want to sell as many guns as they possibly can, so they fund the NRA to do their dirty work for them. They don't care if "irresponsible" people who own guns that can kill a lot of people in a very short time have guns. Neither does the NRA...they will just fight to the death any even suggestion of anycurb whatsoever on anyone's ability to own any kind of gun. Is that "reasonable"?

Gun advocates are so focused on making sure nothing--even reasonable things--aren't possible that they never look at the other side of it...they just accuse the left of wanting to "disarm EVERYONE". They never notice the other side. In my opinion, gun manufacturers are more than happy to see guns sold to cartels, or anyone else, because it increases their bottom line.

Nobody I've ever known wants to take everyone's guns away. That's propaganda from the NRA, etc., who have pounded it into your heads so often and for so long that it's like that "tell a lie often enough..." and you guys run with it.

Did you even notice that it said there's been no decrease in crime? Do you know what that means, given Stand Your Ground is in place? That means people who SHOULD be prosecuted, who've used that excuse to shoot others for the wrong reasons, aren't being prosecuted. We know they're not, there are plenty of instances, while at the same time, neither Stand Your Ground nor any other curb has stopped crime at all. So what good does it do? Yeah, if someone breaks into your house, you FEEL safer...but the fact is, depending on the circumstances, having a gun might do you no good whatsoever--you can't know.

We see things every day that happen because there is virtually no curb to gun ownership, from Columbine and all those like it which have followed to the politician who was gunned down...and all those near her. Let me put this clearly, as apparently others saying it doesn't get through to you and others like you: DEMOCRATS DON'T WANT TO TAKE AWAY EVERYONE'S GUNS. That's a fact, pure and simple. I'll bet dollars to donuts there are many Democrats--even in Congress--who own guns and would fight to the death the concept of taking them away. Yet we're always tarred with that claim, and it's the NRA and their funding from gun owners and gun manufacturers who push this idea.

There is a middle ground, but it can never be approached, much less reached, as long as you buy their bullshit as if it was gospel.


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Sunday, July 8, 2012 6:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

"You know, there's a reason why that 'cold dead hands' thing gets said.
Because of course, any time anybody says something extreme it's always because someone else "made" them do it? I know this point was addressed before, but, by way of comparison: What is the "reason" for rappy coming out and saying the extreme things that he does? Or the Taliban?

Sometimes extremists are just extremists, yanno?

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Sunday, July 8, 2012 9:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

What is the "reason" for rappy coming out and saying the extreme things that he does? Or the Taliban?
Sometimes extremists are just extremists, yanno?



Hello,

I'm actually glad someone has brought up the Taliban and Rappy, because this approaches an area where people mock Rappy all the time, and rightfully so. He doesn't understand the concept of blowback, and he refuses to consider that mideast extremists have any reasons behind their behavior. They are extremists. They are thoughtless. They are bad and they are wrong and what they do has nothing whatsoever to do with anything we are doing. There is no need to understand them or the reasons they do things. There's good people and bad people and we know which kind they are.

I have no love for the inequities of the middle-east or its violent extremist groups, but I do try to understand why some of them are so angry at the United States. By the same token, I think many gun-rights groups are buffoons acting in a hysterical manner, but I do try to understand why they feel such intense fear.


Quote:

are you now putting yourself in the camp where there should be no restrictions at all?


No. I've outlined a few times what I think a reasonable control on firearms would be. I'd very much like to see gun ownership treated a bit more like a driver's license, because I see both of these machines as useful but very dangerous, especially in untrained hands. I'd love for there to be some kind of mandatory education and proficiency test. I'd love for the ownership of firearms to be tracked like the sale of vehicles. I think that people with dangerous mental illness shouldn't have firearms. I think such requirements are all reasonable. I don't trust them to be implemented reasonably.

Quote:

See, my measure of the reasonableness of a law is whether it results in reasonable outcomes.


I'm not sure that's the best measure of a law, though I think it's a measure that means well. A law outlawing swimming pools would have a reasonable outcome under that criteria. Conversely, allowing swimming pools to be legal would have an unreasonable outcome. I think there are moral considerations that exist outside the framework of outcome. Else all laws would be based on the ends justifying the means. That having been said, I think outcome is one significant factor that should be considered. Just not the only one. Perhaps this is because 'outcome' is usually measured by a single quantifiable factor, because it is impossible to measure things that are not quantifiable. That does not mean such things do not matter.

Quote:

Also, since YOU ae making this argument "where being allowed to have a weapon is UNCHALLENGED


Let me see if I can make you understand what I mean by this. Most people would say that moving freely about the country is an unchallenged right of Americans. In fact, it can be challenged at specific times and for specific reasons. There are no absolutes in real life. But no US citizen feels that there is a campaign preventing them from going into New Jersey. If anyone wants to go into New Jersey, they have no anxiety about someone telling them they can't do so. This is perceived as an Unchallenged right because there is no general perception of opposition to the concept. **

Quote:


Pray tell, who has proposed that? Anyone here? "Democrats" in general? Got a name? Description? Anything other than a faceless vague notion of 'the people who'?



Before the law was changed, I had the pleasure of taking a self-defense and concealed weapons course in Florida. One had to take such a course to carry a concealed weapon in Florida. I do not know what the current regulation is. I now live in Arizona where one can carry concealed without any training or license. Anyway, the previous law gave the individual a duty to retreat in the face of aggression. This could put someone in the unenviable position of having to prove that they exhausted every opportunity for evasion before defending themselves. I did not agree with this, as I believe that when confronted with aggression, a person should be freer when making their decision on how to mitigate the threat.

Interestingly, the course I took covered some similar scenarios to the one proposed by Mr. Zimmerman. To whit: What if someone is beating the tar out of you? Can you produce a knife and eviscerate your assailant? The answer at the time: Maybe. But count on being arrested and having the matter decided in court. As it turns out, this is almost exactly the scenario being played out in the Zimmerman case. To me, the important part in this case is what happened just before the self-defense scenario in question. In class, one always assumed that the man beating the tar out of you had no good reason to do so. It seemed like a travesty of justice that you should have to defend your defense in a court of law. I think it's a safe bet that no one imagined that the 'assailant' in the scenario might have a reason to be justified in assaulting you. Probably this is because reasonable people don't plan on following law-abiding citizens while armed with a gun and an attitude.

Quote:

Wow. Way to straw-man an argument AnthonyT. Well done on that.


I am not the one who made the comparison. All I did was agree with the comparison made. Who is straw manning, then?

Quote:

Want to try again to address your faulty logic, where you put the blame for unreasonable gun-nuts on democrats instead of where it belongs?


I am not going to try to convince you that groups of Democrats have a history of trying to eliminate private gun ownership. I think that if such a history is not readily apparent to you, then you must be willfully blind on the matter. I will instead point to specific real-life laws that alarm people.

In my lifetime, the Federal government outlawed certain types of firearms based not only on 'objective' criteria like 'ammunition capacity' but also subjective criteria such as *appearance. This law notably did not apply to the constabulary.

In my lifetime, California outlawed certain types of firearms based on criteria such as *bullet-width and *melting point. These limitations were enacted based on hysteria, and one of these limitations had a disproportionate impact on poor people (often minorities).

In my lifetime, some states of the union had severe limitations on gun ownership and the ability to carry weapons, such that carrying a firearm for defense was practically outlawed.

One can easily doubt that people in the Democratic party want me to have the right to carry a firearm in my defense.

--Anthony

*When gun-control laws are passed based on hysteria, and not on objective criteria, it makes gun-rights advocates very nervous.

**Though Arizona is trying hard to make moving into and through a state a challenged prospect.



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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