Cry It Out by HKCavalier

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Cry It Out

POSTED BY: HKCAVALIER
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 20:33
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Thursday, July 26, 2012 2:26 PM

Hey all,

My upstairs neighbors have instituted cry it out with their baby girl. They are impervious to reason, drunk on the koolaid--they've "researched" it and they want to give you urls, etc. Thing is, I've never heard of a couple using this insanity during the day, but they do. They put her down for a nap, close her bedroom door and do their best to ignore her. They're not very good at it, thank the baby Jesus. Today they lasted one half hour before the mother sorta screamed in that way that you write out "ooooh," opened the door and comforted the poor creature. They do it at night, too.

Any strategies for how to deal with this, short of stealing the child (very tempted over here)?

Thanks in advance.

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA

It's child abuse dude, and actionable.
This particular bit of viciousness can mostly be laid at the feet of that bastard Gary Ezzo, who I rank right up there with that evil prick Dobson when it comes to abusive "parenting".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisonous_pedagogy

This particular form of abuse and neglect has been positively linked to dehydration, failure-to-thrive, and other medical conditions, and in some cases if not dealt with will eventually result in closet kid syndrome, plus such sensory and emotional deprivation has substantial negative impacts on the developing brain.
I cite Perry, of course, and offer this.
http://www.acrf.org/Self-StudyCourses/neglectcourse/nabout.htm

Much as I find the authorities in this realm despicable, often enabling or promoting such abusive behavior, there is at least a slim hope in there of finding someone with a working brain and some empathy instead of a malicious agenda or so burnt out they're useless - of course, despite all their assertations, be advised they WILL roll you to them if you make an issue of it, and you'd best be prepared to deal with that, too.

-Frem

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:50 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'm not familiar with 'cry it out'?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:14 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

I'm not familiar with 'cry it out'?

Basically: neglect behind a closed door.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Since they seem to be immune to their own senses and also immune to reasonable discussion, maybe "an authority" telling them that "crying it out" is NOT good for their child might help. So here's one:

Cry It Out: The Method That Kills Baby Brain Cells
Posted: 12/22/11 11:07 AM ET

Quote:
I know. A dramatic headline. Made you look. But it's not fiction. It turns out that the "Cry It Out" method of baby sleep training, where you ignore that your kid is screaming, crying and turning 40 shades of purple so that she can break herself out of the habit of being spoiled and cuddled to sleep, does more harm -- way more -- than good.

In her recent piece for Psychology Today, Darcia Narvaez (You might want to look that up!), an associate professor of psychology at Notre Dame, writes that when babies are stressed, their bodies release cortisol into their systems -- a toxic hormone that kills brain cells. Considering their brains are only 25 percent developed when they're born full-term and grow rapidly in their first year, killing off baby brain cells is a huge no bueno. Narvaez notes that studies out of Harvard, Yale, Baylor and other prestigious institutions show that said killing off of baby brain cells can lead to the higher probability of ADHD, poor academic performance and anti-social tendencies, and that human babies are hardwired for hands-on comfort and care.

"Babies are built to expect the equivalent of an 'external womb' after birth... being held constantly, breastfed on demand, needs met quickly," Narvaez writes. "These practices are known to facilitate good brain and body development. When babies display discomfort, it signals that a need is not getting met, a need of their rapidly growing systems."

Um, remember that scene from the True Hollywood Stories: Rick James episode on the Dave Chappelle Show -- the one where Rick James is grinding his feet into Eddie Murphy's couch? Yeah. *insert an image of Denene doing the Rick James foot stomp into the couch thing here* In your face, Nick Chiles! For the record, I argued and fussed and fought with my husband over "Feberizing" our Mari. The infant self-soothing technique, invented by Dr. Richard Ferber, requires parents to let their babies "cry it out" for a predetermined amount of time, in increasing intervals, before they comfort them -- and even then, comforting involves talking to and rubbing the babies; picking them up or cuddling them is forbidden.

Now, it's been 12 years since we tried this "cry it out" thing with Mari, but I promise you, I can still hear her screaming in her crib in the next room. My breasts would throb at her every whimper, and every second on the clock would feel like an eternity while I waited for my chance to go in and pat her on her stomach, rub her arm and cheek and tell her, "it's okay, baby--Daddy promises you won't die from crying."

But I was. It just didn't feel right to let my child scream and holler and thrash by her little self in the dark in her crib when I knew full well that a little rocking in her glider, maybe a song and a sweet nuzzle of her cheek would send her off to dreamland. Granted, some nights that meant multiple rocking/singing/nuzzle time, but, to me, it was a small price to pay for feeling like I was mothering my baby and helping her feel like her mommy was there. Always there.

Of course, plenty other parents think differently about it and that's their right. We all do what we think works for our kids, our families, our lives. Not gonna point fingers at y'all. But I will point them at the hubs. When I showed this Yahoo Shine story chronicling Narvaez's anti-cry-it-out research -- and an interview in which Ferber actually backs off his own method--to Nick, he shrugged his shoulders and said, "It ain't fun for the baby, but that shit worked. Everybody got some sleep. You going for two years with only three hours of sleep at night isn't healthy either."

I think he might have said those exact words to me the first time I left Mari in her crib. Still, as much as his reasoning made sense, it just didn't feel right to me -- her mother. And when Nick told Mari we did this to her when she was a baby, she was incredulous: "What? You use to let me cry? You didn't come get me? You just left me there by myself?!"

That was Daddy, baby!

Yeah. That Ferber training didn't last long in our house, and I don't remember even trying it with my Lila. (Which might explain why our daughters' nighttime routines were a little worthy-of-a-Broadway-production hectic for longer than they should have been. But whatevs.) My babies and I benefited greatly from our nightly bonding sessions and co-sleeping arrangements, and I'm glad I did it for as long as I did.

Now that we've got this babies need to cry it out business out of the way, I've got some ideas on what researchers need to look into next: I'm waiting for the study to show that beating your kid like she stole something in what is supposed to be a friendly game of Go Fish and Checkers causes brain melt. I'm looking at you, Nicholas Chiles. I'm looking at you.

Or, when all else fails, call the cops about excessive noise?

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 7:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Are they at ALL scientifically literate? If they are, you might want to point out that crying babies are predator attractors and that evolution had created appropriate comforting and quieting behavior in parents to make sure babies get their needs met and stay alive.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:31 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'm still not sure I understand entirely.

My philosophy when raising my son was that if he cried, I would go and see what was the matter and try to solve it. If nothing was the matter, or if the crying was meant to extort behavior from me, I would ignore it.

In early years, my son used to cry when he did not get something he wanted. The idea (I believe) was that I would become frustrated with this behavior and submit to the demand. Either that, or he simply could not contain his disappointment over not receiving the desired trinket. My policy was to wait impassively for the crying to be over. Then, when the crying was finished, I'd give a hug and a kiss and say I loved him very much but he still couldn't have whatever it was.

Sometimes he would cry in a public place while I was out with family or friends. If he did so, I would remove him to a parking lot under the shade of a tree and sit and watch him cry until he was finished. I missed more than one dinner because of this, but I considered it dishonorable to inflict a crying child on a roomful of people who were trying to enjoy a repast.

This would seem to be 'crying it out' as described but I'm not able to conceive that any harm came to him because of it, nor that it was any form of torture or abuse.

As an aside, it took me some time to cure him of crying over trivialities such as me not purchasing for him anything he desired. I suspect that someone *else* was doing so, or he'd not have clung to the idea for so long. Eventually I made a daily habit of visiting the toy store after I picked him up from daycare. I'd wander about, look at toys, and then leave without purchasing anything.

At first, he used to cry as always when he wanted something he did not get. Eventually, he gave up on this tactic. Sometimes he'd inspect a toy and mention that he liked it. I'd say something like "Yes, that looks like it would be fun to play with" and then moved on.

Often, these toys would appear weeks or months later as gifts when I was financially and emotionally prepared to give them. To this day, if he likes something he can not afford to purchase, he will show it to me and tell me what is desirable about it, and then put it back on the shelf. He knows that if I can afford it, the item will probably find its way to him eventually. If not, he doesn't make a fuss- or he saves his own money to buy it himself.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Babies aren't young children. They are born significantly embryonic and do rely on the 'external womb' of loving care.

"Infant crying is a fact of life. It's the only way our newborns can communicate their needs to us. Fortunately, most of the time even a baby's most passionate shrieks just mean he's hungry, wet, soiled, or lonely, and he will melt into blissful quiet once you give him what he needs.

In fact, we call babies "infants" exactly because they can't tell us what's on their little minds; the word infant comes from ancient Latin and means "without a voice." ...

How to Calm Your Crying Baby

Almost like an off switch for crying and an on switch for sleep, the calming reflex is turned on by doing five specific things to imitate the uterus. I call these the 5 S's: swaddling, the side/stomach position, shushing, swinging, and sucking.

Swaddling: Snug wrapping is the cornerstone of calming, the essential first step in pacifying fussy babies. Swaddling duplicates the soft caresses babies feel during pregnancy. Your baby may initially struggle against the wrapping, but once he calms, it will keep him from flailing and accidentally upsetting himself. (Avoid loose blankets around the face, and overheating. They have been associated with SIDS.)

Side/stomach position: The back is the only safe sleeping position. But it's the worst position for soothing crying, because it can trigger a feeling of falling. The side or stomach position cancels that feeling, and switches on the calming.

Shushing: strong shushing is "music to your baby's ears." Shush as loudly as he's crying, then, as he settles, gradually decrease your volume and intensity. (A CD of womb sounds or a white noise machine is worth its weight in gold.)

Swinging: All infants love movement, but crying babies need fast, ultra-small jiggly motion (1-2" back and forth… like a shiver). Swings, slings and rocking chairs can be a big help, too. But never jiggle your baby when you're angry.

Sucking: This wonderful "S" lulls babies into profound tranquility. You should breastfeed if you can - even formula manufacturers say "breast is best" - and avoid pacifiers until the nursing is really well established."

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Friday, July 27, 2012 7:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ferber, Ezzo, Dobson - really it's all the same, ignore their needs as irrelevant, and when they become large enough or vocal enough to press the issue, use violence.

It's sick, it's inhumane, and at it's worst, it's lethal.
http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/babywise-linked-to-babies-dehydration.h
tml
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maia-szalavitz/how-orphanages-kill-babie
_b_549608.html
http://www.livestrong.com/article/72120-effect-human-contact-newborn-b
abies/
And that's six seconds and knowing where to look, I could crank out tons of this stuff, but it matters not.

It's abuse, it's actionable, and while maybe "legal", as hateful and immoral a thing as could be done to a child.

-Frem

EDIT: That's a different thing, Anthony, you were there, you were present and taking an interest - this is more downright internal abandonment.

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Friday, July 27, 2012 11:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Anthony, your method isn't at all what I see as the "cry it out" method people use. It's intended for infants who have been put to bed but are fussy; it sounds like you used it with an older child, and I think your method sounds wonderful and like excellent parenting. You stayed with the child, looked to see if there was a problem that needed solving, and it sounds like only used it when your child was trying to manipulate you.

That's a WHOLE different thing from what's being discussed, which is that when a baby is put down to sleep and cries, ignore it. That's like they say to do with new puppies; put him in his box and let him cry until he stops. I don't believe in either. In puppies, they cry because they've been removed from their mom and their litter...even putting a ticking close and soft blanket in with them (as some do) doesn't replicate another living creature with them. I never did that, all my dogs started out with me in the room and lots of comfort, cuddled with me some of the time (but not all, young puppies make "messes" ;o) fairly regularly). All my dogs have ended up deeply bonded to me, and I think that's part of why.

As to children, I agree with everything that's been said, so I won't add to it. Parents who practice "cry it out" are to me only one of two things: Ignorantly following what they've been told or read, or just too damned lazy or too busy doing other things to give the child the priority it deserves. The children always suffer.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 7:57 AM

HKCAVALIER

Update: Since that day, the day the mother screamed and broke her rules and went in to comfort her baby girl, the day I started this thread, there have been no cry it out sessions, either for naps or for bedtime. Miraculously, she's "chickened out" and instead, when the baby cries at nap time and bedtime, the parents are taking turns rocking their daughter in a rocking chair next to her crib placed there precisely for that purpose. I'm not sure if they're planning to get back on that fiery steed, but for now, there is some amount of peace in the house. Thank you all for your support.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, July 30, 2012 1:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Nature usually does win that contest - barring some serious mental damage upstairs on behalf of the so-called parents.
We have those hard-wired instincts for a reason, and most of the time it's a damned good one.

-F

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Monday, July 30, 2012 1:49 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I did controlled comforting with my son (as instructed by my Maternal and Child Health Nurse). It was a form of sleep training, where you went in, comforted and left for increasing lengths of time. It worked pretty well under controlled conditions (in the sleep clinic) and he generally settled down after that. I never felt entirely comfortable that I did it, and I have read since that it is considered abusive.

Not sure what I would have done if I had had chance number 2, but I didn't. Just have to live with the stuff I did and didn't think was great.

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Monday, July 30, 2012 2:43 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Couldn't crying incessantly day in and day out cause an aneurism or something?

I see that "killing brain cells" was brought up, but to anyone who has watched a baby cry.... it's not like a child or an adult crying. When kids and adults do it, it's a relief of sorts.... It seems to be a very stressful practice for babies.

I'm mixed at how insults should be thrown at the parents though. It doesn't sound as if they're doing this for the sake of being neglectful or to be child abusers. I just think they're misguided in their attempts to raise their baby right.

I have no offers for a solution though. Trying to convince them that they're wrong would probably be 10 times as hard as trying to convince anyone on the RWED that your opinion is more valid than the next person's.

Good luck.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Monday, July 30, 2012 3:44 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

I'm not familiar with 'cry it out'?

--Anthony

I rescue and foster a lot of puppies (107 as of this week) and basically you put the puppy in the playpen (or crate) and ignore it when it cries. This teaches the puppy to sleep quietly in its bed all night long which in turn prevents said puppy from driving you crazy...it also helps and is part of my four-step housebreaking program (Eat, sleep, outside, business...patent pending). Older puppies do very well but puppies less then twelve weeks take it very hard unless you've got more then one puppy. For newly seperated puppies (8-weekers more or less) I will give them a nice stuffed animal to curl up with/on. Be sure to take it away after a couple weeks or it will be chewed.

Anyway the puppy cries, you ignore it, one or two hard nights later the puppy stops crying and sleeps all night.

Don't know if this is good for babies. I do know that I've heard that gettting the baby to sleep all night is a part of the development process and its pretty obvious that at some point you have to let little PirateBaby cry or he's gonna keep you up with his milk/Nazi conspiracies.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Monday, July 30, 2012 4:03 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Don't think it's the same with human babies Hero....

You'd be the first to say that we're admitedly different...

The only reason a human baby cries blood curdling screams is because it is as of yet unable to put a knife into somebody for neglecting them.

This ain't Cesar Milan's Baby Whisperer....

A neglected baby is a fucked up baby....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Monday, July 30, 2012 7:03 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

I shoulda asked this: how old is the kid? Treatment for an 18 month old, or a 24, is different from treating a newborn, of course.

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Monday, July 30, 2012 7:25 AM

HKCAVALIER

She's having her first birthday next week. It's insane to demand that a child that young differenciate from her mommy. The mother told Lady Cavalier (I couldn't have spoken to them when she did--I would have been WAY too combative and outraged) that she "didn't want her baby to still be in her bed at the age of 8." An idiotic fear when the child isn't even a year old. The reason she went for cry it out, is the same reason anyone does: to FORCE the child to conform to the parents' schedule. As if that schedule is some sacred immutable necessity. As if the child won't naturally begin to differenciate in a matter of months. Ach. Thank the gods her mothering instincts have proven too strong for this madness.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, July 30, 2012 7:45 AM

MAL4PREZ

I once met a woman who, with her roommate, decided to adopt a kitten. They were adamant that they would train it "properly," not let it sleep with them and not respond to excessive crying at the closed bedroom doors. One night it went on and on, but they stubbornly stayed in their beds, certain they were teaching it to behave. Finally, it was just so loud they gave in.

The kitten had fallen in the toilet.

I did not like this woman at all. Nor do I think I'd like HK's neighbors. I'm glad they gave up this extremely stupid plan.

I recall a study I read about babies in Chinese orphanages who were not touched or comforted in their first year of life. Their brains were chemically altered. They did not experience the pleasure/happy chemicals that most people experience when they interact with other humans. Babies of all species need to feel comforted and secure, or the dis-comfort and in-security will be wired into them for the rest of their lives.

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Monday, July 30, 2012 8:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mal4, what you mentioned is I believe along the lines of the "inability to connect" which abused and/or ignored babies suffer. I shudder to think of it.

It IS the same with other animals as with humans, in my opinion. Yes, the puppy eventually stops crying...like a baby, it gives up. I've never had any problem; every puppy I've ever had, I put in a box near my bed so I can reach down and let it know it's not alone. Puppies newly separated from their mother and litter...ach, I went through that already, why repeat myself. Suffice it to say the REASONS the pup stops crying aren't healthy ones, in my mind. My dogs have always ended up extremely bonded to me; it makes training tons easier.

On the other hand, the method you joked about copyrighting is precisely what books on housetraining, as well as Victoria Stillwell, advise. It works very well, you're right.

ETA: I was relieved to hear the women checked on the kitten after all, Mike...as I read the sentence before that, I thought it was going to go "the kitten (something horrible) and died".

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Magons..

Quote:
I never felt entirely comfortable that I did it...

That, right there.
Mothers instincts are usually, not always, but usually, quite reliable - I mean that's why nature gave em to us, yes ?

Jack..

Quote:
I have no offers for a solution though. Trying to convince them that they're wrong would probably be 10 times as hard as trying to convince anyone on the RWED that your opinion is more valid than the next person's.

Gimme fifteen minutes, unless they're complete monsters, they *WILL* be convinced, but then I been doin this for twenty and some years, too - I know exactly where and how to slip the psychological knife in.

Quote:
The only reason a human baby cries blood curdling screams is because it is as of yet unable to put a knife into somebody for neglecting them.

A neglected baby is a fucked up baby....

Truer than you know, this - A child cries "I hurt", left ignored, that becomes a warning, then a prophecy, children who have never known love become something... else.
I cite Ellis Amdur on this one.
Setsuninto--Katsujinken
The sword that takes life, the sword that gives life
http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur3.html

Past a certain point, you *can't* help them, there's nothing to connect to, no way to relate - especially if the initial abuse was compounded with the assistance or neglect of so-called authorities or mental health personnel, because then they become what I call psychiatrically iatrogenic - because they see authority and psych personnel as enemy, there's *NO* hope of treating them that way, they clam up, dig in, and fight - which those personnel then react so predictably, so STUPIDLY, to, that it makes me wanna brain em with a shovel, they whip out the drugs and shock treatments and such, going for a brute force approach that IMHO is no more merciful or useful than a bullet to the head.

This is how and exactly why I wound up helping some of these kids - their parents sold them out, the authorities aided and abetted, the shrinks helped set them up... the *ONLY* link they had LEFT to the rest of humanity was to the stubborn bastard who pulled them out of there, that bond was the only one existing which carried sufficient trust with it for them to accept any form of treatment or therapy whatever, even if the poor sodder (that being me) at the time had ZERO knowledge or qualification, which initially was a hell of a lot like creeping through a minefield blindfolded, but if necessity is the mother of invention, desperation is surely the father - thanks be I tumbled to the work of Alice Miller and Bruce Perry, otherwise that'd be a lost cause.

Many of these kids who hate "us" collectively, they got some pretty damn good REASONS for it, and ignoring or denying the validity of those reasons is why much of the younger generations don't give a rats ass about anything we do or say, it's not like we seem to care what they think and feel, so why should they offer to us what we've never spared for them ?
Overcoming this is both easy and hard - easy in that all one has to do is listen to them, treat them as people, human beings, and respect them... hard in that our whole society conditions us not to do so, to demonize them as subhuman, and our legal system heavily supports that viewpoint.

Anyhows, that's how it is, and all the psychobabble in the world, all the excuses, won't change the cold, hard facts of the matter - we've incorporated a substantive level of child abuse into our society, our educational and child-rearing systems, and as a result we pay for it.
We do shit to them, if they manage to grow up, they do shit to US.
And we wonder why ?

Mal4Prez...

Quote:
I recall a study I read about babies in Chinese orphanages who were not touched or comforted in their first year of life. Their brains were chemically altered. They did not experience the pleasure/happy chemicals that most people experience when they interact with other humans. Babies of all species need to feel comforted and secure, or the dis-comfort and in-security will be wired into them for the rest of their lives.

Romanian orphanages were far, far, far worse - as a direct result of Nicolae Ceausescus policies, one reason I am so bitterly pro-choice is having seen the fallout from that mess.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4629589.stm
Also, as I cited above, lack of sufficient care and attention, even if the childs biological needs are met, will still often cause them to outright die... they call it "failure to thrive" but essentially it's murder by neglect, which is why I am so passionate about the matter, and so virulent towards practices like this.

Also noteworthy to this, is that I am about to kitty-nap one of the residents cats in regards to a similar issue.
See, firstoff they didn't pay the pet deposit/fee - that we kinda look the other way about unless it becomes an actual noticeable problem, which for an indoor cat is as a rule, not bloody likely.
Mind you, we do have a leash policy, which I am none too strict about provided the human is in close proximity to their puppy or kitty.

Problem is, the new boyfriend/roomie/whatever took a dislike to the critter and started putting it out at night - this is meaner than folks think, that's an indoor raised cat, and not all cats even know how to hunt, plus indoor-raised kitties may not know where to find food, water, how to hide, how to fight... sure they have instincts, but that's a far cry from skill - I mean if I dropped some suburbanite human out in the badlands, how long you think they'd survive, ehe ?
Not to mention this is a wee little six-pounder, which is really lightweight up against the local wildlife, some of which might see him as a snack, you know ?

Now this kitty, who apparently doesn't like humans much - cottoned to me instantly, the first night they put him out I had thought he got out by accident, and he came right up to me wanting attention.
This wigged them out a bit, and they did take the cat back inside - but it's been almost a week now of me finding that cat outside, lingering within 15 yards of the doorstep, begging me to let him back in, showing signs of not being fed/watered properly, and it's pissin me off.

So if they don't take responsibility for the kitty, pay the deposit and keep it inside, it won't be animal control or the maintanence guys who come collect it (and take it to our local no-kill shelter), it will be me - since yon critter already likes me better anyways.
Mind you, cause of Puppy-kittys jealousy issues, I cannot take on a cat she doesn't already know, but I am sure I can find a better home for the poor little critter than this.

-Frem

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 10:33 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Magons..
Quote:
I never felt entirely comfortable that I did it...

That, right there.
Mothers instincts are usually, not always, but usually, quite reliable - I mean that's why nature gave em to us, yes ?

-Frem

To be honest, I never felt much instinctual stuff at all, only that he was adorable and I did not like listening to him cry. Other than that, I was pretty much clueless.

edit: My belief is that much parenting behaviour is not instinctual at all, but learned. Trouble is most of us get to being parents with minimal exposure to the behaviour of babies, because of how our societies are structured. So unless you belong to a large close knit family or community with daily exposure to settling babies, you really have very little clue. You do rely on information provided around looking after babies, at least for number one, most people I know have thumbed their way through the books in order to work out what to do. And a lot of that information changes. what is recommended one year, is considered abuse the next. What do you do but the best you can.

Being a mum of a young baby is incredibly tiring. INCREDIBLY. Especially if you don't have a settled baby. Basically a lot of mums and dads too go a bit mad from sleep deprivation in those early months, and then things get really difficult. In an ideal world we could carry our babies all the time probably, cosleep, never let them cry. But attempting that sort of parenting can be tough because we don't live in societies which support that kind of way of life. Parents are juggling busy lives, jobs, other children, and day to day family routines. I notice there is now a bit of a back track on the so called 'attachment parenting' now as well for a number of reasons.

I guess what I am saying is maybe you shouldn't be too judgemental. Maybe a day or two crying out is not fantastic parenting, but maybe the mum is sleep deprived and desperate. And if the rest of that child's life she/he receives love, attention and care, its probably no big deal.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 3:56 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Jack..

I have no offers for a solution though. Trying to convince them that they're wrong would probably be 10 times as hard as trying to convince anyone on the RWED that your opinion is more valid than the next person's.

Quote:
Gimme fifteen minutes, unless they're complete monsters, they *WILL* be convinced, but then I been doin this for twenty and some years, too - I know exactly where and how to slip the psychological knife in.

Quote:
The only reason a human baby cries blood curdling screams is because it is as of yet unable to put a knife into somebody for neglecting them.

I don't doubt that you couldn't. Seriously man, you should write a book about how you've helped children. I may be wrong about HK's neighbors, but I think they might have read a book about the practice and somehow think it's the right thing to do. Honestly, the practice of "Cry It Out" isn't too far from what the Dog Whisperer does with dogs. They might be swell parents otherwise, but are unwittingly doing damage to their child through nothing more than ignorance.

Quote:
A neglected baby is a fucked up baby....

Quote:
Truer than you know, this - A child cries "I hurt", left ignored, that becomes a warning, then a prophecy, children who have never known love become something... else.
I cite Ellis Amdur on this one.
Setsuninto--Katsujinken
The sword that takes life, the sword that gives life
http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur3.html

Past a certain point, you *can't* help them, there's nothing to connect to, no way to relate - especially if the initial abuse was compounded with the assistance or neglect of so-called authorities or mental health personnel, because then they become what I call psychiatrically iatrogenic - because they see authority and psych personnel as enemy, there's *NO* hope of treating them that way, they clam up, dig in, and fight - which those personnel then react so predictably, so STUPIDLY, to, that it makes me wanna brain em with a shovel, they whip out the drugs and shock treatments and such, going for a brute force approach that IMHO is no more merciful or useful than a bullet to the head.

This is how and exactly why I wound up helping some of these kids - their parents sold them out, the authorities aided and abetted, the shrinks helped set them up... the *ONLY* link they had LEFT to the rest of humanity was to the stubborn bastard who pulled them out of there, that bond was the only one existing which carried sufficient trust with it for them to accept any form of treatment or therapy whatever, even if the poor sodder (that being me) at the time had ZERO knowledge or qualification, which initially was a hell of a lot like creeping through a minefield blindfolded, but if necessity is the mother of invention, desperation is surely the father - thanks be I tumbled to the work of Alice Miller and Bruce Perry, otherwise that'd be a lost cause.

Many of these kids who hate "us" collectively, they got some pretty damn good REASONS for it, and ignoring or denying the validity of those reasons is why much of the younger generations don't give a rats ass about anything we do or say, it's not like we seem to care what they think and feel, so why should they offer to us what we've never spared for them ?
Overcoming this is both easy and hard - easy in that all one has to do is listen to them, treat them as people, human beings, and respect them... hard in that our whole society conditions us not to do so, to demonize them as subhuman, and our legal system heavily supports that viewpoint.

Anyhows, that's how it is, and all the psychobabble in the world, all the excuses, won't change the cold, hard facts of the matter - we've incorporated a substantive level of child abuse into our society, our educational and child-rearing systems, and as a result we pay for it.
We do shit to them, if they manage to grow up, they do shit to US.
And we wonder why ?

-Frem

This is why I'm so glad that my Dad took my brother in last September when he ran out of money. He and my Dad have always had a special bond since my Dad was the one to basically rehabilitate him day in and day out after his hemorrhage when he was 6. He won't listen to a damn thing anyone else in the family tells him, but somehow my dad got him to stop drinking alcohol and coffee cold turkey, and he weened him off of tobacco in only 6 months. The only drugs in his system now are anti-depressants.

I tried living with him for a while, but even though I witnessed him drink 1 1/2 pots of STRONG coffee a day only to begin drinking his 1/5th of vodka a night the second the coffee was gone, I couldn't tell him to stop because he'd just throw the fact that I drank coffee and beer back in my face. (The extremes to which he was taking both didn't factor in his mind).

I had managed to get him on unemployment even though he quit his job (going into just enough detail about his "history" and hinting that the company might have a future legal obligation if they didn't allow it). I had even spent a full day making him open the last 8 months of mail stacked all around his apartment in about 10 different places and throw out the trash and keep the important documents, as well as sitting there patiently for hours while he set up all of his important bank and billing accounts online.

At first, we got along great, but a few months went by in that small place and after several MAJOR physical fights between us, I finally had to leave.

Things got worse for him after I left, and he was writing terrible emails to family and extended family that got even worse as the months went on. He had a strange fixation with my female cousin (they both did have crushes on each other back when they were innocent and didn't know any better, but she grew up and he's still a 10 year old trapped in a 28 year old body). Finally, after a few death threats to me and my other brother, and a very strange email about my cousin, I forwarded them to Uncle (her father, who is also a big shot lawyer) and begged him for any help he could give.

What the next day entailed was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life. We had to build a case with a lawyer to present in front of a judge about how bad he's gotten and that he needed to be committed before he hurt himself or somebody else. I refused to be the person signing the papers (they wanted me to do it since I was the one who got the ball rolling), but my brother had no problem with it. It was just me, my bro and my Mom there.

So a court order was made, and the cops came to his apartment and he willingly submitted to going to the hospital. And what did they do??????

They only kept him for 10 days, loaded him up with UBER doses of Anti-Depressants and Anti-Psychotics and dumped him back into his apartment. There he spent the next two weeks, popping the MASSIVE amount of pills, drinking more than ever and upgrading his email threats to voicemail threats on everyone's phones.

Then he called up one night (after about 8 voicemails earlier in the day) to let me know that he was "just like my uncle" who killed himself and that he only had 6 bucks left in his name. Apparently he went to the liquor store to buy more booze and smokes and he was denied.

Not only had he completely given up checking his bank account when I wasn't there to be a life coach, but because he never answered the Unemployment's 3 letters and phone calls, they cut him off and expect a back payment of 1200 bucks after the first 6 months of payments.

Everybody but my dad had been abused by him either physically or verbally and emotionally. Nobody wanted to take him in, and I really didn't think that my Dad would either. At this point, I had just bought my house, but there is no public transportation around here and he couldn't get anywhere, and to be honest I thought he just might set my house on fire when I was out if we ever got into a fight.

At the last minute my Dad swooped in and saved him. He's doing a lot better now that he's on proper dosages of meds and off of any stimulants and depressants. We're hopeful that he can get on SSI during the second round which will be in about 6 months.

The next step is to try to get him into some section 8 housing, preferably in Indiana where he can get a driver's license. Probably the biggest blow to his ego from the effects of the hemorrhage is the fact that he's 28 and Illinois won't let him drive a car because of his compromised vision.

I'd say that as long as I was confident that he didn't go back to the booze, he's more capable to drive a car than any teenager out there who still believes they're invincible.

To further illustrate the point of how the "system" screwed him in that so-called hospital, not only was he taking those mamoth doses of drugs that his current psychiatrist doesn't believe he should have ever been on, but my dad said that his bank statements showed that in his last month before he ran out of money he had spent nearly 1.5k at the local liquor store on cheap booze and non-taxed cigarellos that were little more than a buck a pack. He must have been drinking a gallon of cheap Vodka a day, and God knows how much caffeine, coupled with those horrible pills.

VERY long story short.... Sure, those "developmental" years my Dad shared with my brother were when he was already 6 years old, but he was essentially starting over at that point. The doctors said he'd never walk or talk again, and he damn near seemed like he'd be a vegetable the rest of his life. He may as well have been a baby again.

I was the first person he talked to, 2 months after the fact. I called the hospital like I did every night and my mom gave me the phone and when I said hi he said "hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiii Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccccccccccckkkkkkk". By the time my mom grabbed the phone she was already crying as much as I was. Shit... I'm crying now just thinking about that moment.....

He spent so many years proving everyone wrong. He seemed to be doing fine after I was kicked out of my Mom's house and he was only 14. I didn't talk to my brothers much for a few years after that, I was too busy doing my own drugs and drinking and partying with the wrong crowd. I think when my other bro left for the Army and he was all alone without us for 4 years is when he got so twisted.

I'll never forgive myself for that.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 8:20 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey M'sD,

"Learned behavior" has such a cheery, conscious ring to it. As I understand it, a lot of parenting isn't so much learned as programmed. In infancy. The relationship between the parent and the infant is powerfully dyadic psychologically. We learn how children should be treated by how we were treated as children. So, when we grow up and find ourselves in the presence of our own child, the programming we received as infants will usually assert itself unless we mindfully work to change that programming. And that can be a lot of work. This is particularly noticeable in cases of incest and other child abuse (that's why we call such violence "multi-generational") but it's also at the heart of the whole "I'm becoming my mom!" thing so many young mother's struggle with. It's one of the reasons circumcision is still so common. We learn in our bodies that "this is how things are done; this is how they should be."

I'm certainly not surprised that a young mother might not be aware of any "instinct stuff." That's how instincts are supposed to work. Baby cry + me no likey = comfort baby :: all better now. Absolutely no animal in nature lets her baby "cry it out" even once, unless she is herself in mortal danger. It says a lot about the toxicisty of modern life that an otherwise devoted mother would feel the need to ignore her baby's cries so she can rest.

And Magons, "cry it out" isn't just a onetime thing, it's a program which the parent who follows it must absolutely adhere to for weeks or months on end or the "method" will fail. It's born of a philosophy that children left to nature will turn out wrong. It's a very destructive philosophy originating back in the 20's, I believe, a holdover from a larger and very nasty philosophy that believed comforting children--at all--was harmful.

I promise you, Cesar Millan is not an advocate of the "cry it out" method of child rearing. Actively ignoring a dog who is trying to establish dominance with you wouldn't work at all if you just left the dog in a room and closed the door. What Cesar does is closer to what Anthony was talking about up thread about how he delt with his (importantly) older son.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 8:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

HK, right on point. As to

Quote:
Actively ignoring a dog who is trying to establish dominance with you wouldn't work at all if you just left the dog in a room and closed the door. What Cesar does is closer to what Anthony was talking about up thread

That's absolutely valid when talking about a dog with a problem. He would take action to solve the problem. I have never seen him deal with puppies except for the time he raised three different breeds to instruct peopl on how to raise a psychologically healthy dog.

His instructions DO include not reacting to the puppy's crying with regard to new puppies, but only then. He never leaves crying or howling or otherwise noisy dogs in a room and ignores them. And his reasons for not reacting to a puppy crying are as valid as Anthony's. He has numerous instructions on what to do with a puppy BEFORE bedtime to make him feel as safe and comfortable as possible, then says:

Quote:
3. Though you may want to share your bed with your new dog, don't do this right away.

It is important to get him used to your sleeping arrangements before allowing him to participate in this intimate connection. If your dog whines or cries during the night, do not react. Cooing or comforting your dog will reinforce his whining and send the signal that your dog can summon you at will. http://www.cesarsway.com/cesarstips/tips-for-doggy-sleeping-arrangemen
ts

It's similar to the "cry it out" philosophy, but he takes steps BEFORE that, whereas I imagine most parents just plop the child down in its crib then walk away.

Not to mention that puppies aren't humans; babies cry for many reasons (food, changing, discomfort), dogs for few--in fact hardly any but when they're puppies newly removed from their mother and littermates, which to me makes crying perfectly natural (as does babies crying when removed from the comfort of their mothers). There are lots of steps people take before a new puppy is left alone (some of which Cesar goes into), including putting a clock or something that makes comforting sounds with the pup, and furry things that remind them of their littermates.

I happen to disagree with Cesar on numerous points--his method is to reinforce the alpha status of humans at all times and deal with "dog psychology" where humans have screwed them up; Jim and Choey and I are unquestionably alphas with our dogs, and all three obey us really well (except for roaming with the huskies!), and we're quite happy to have a modified method which gives the dogs more freedom than Cesar's methods would.

Also, on his show Cesar works with people who already have problems with their dogs, not new puppies.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:33 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey M'sD,

"Learned behavior" has such a cheery, conscious ring to it. As I understand it, a lot of parenting isn't so much learned as programmed. In infancy. The relationship between the parent and the infant is powerfully dyadic psychologically. We learn how children should be treated by how we were treated as children. So, when we grow up and find ourselves in the presence of our own child, the programming we received as infants will usually assert itself unless we mindfully work to change that programming. And that can be a lot of work. This is particularly noticeable in cases of incest and other child abuse (that's why we call such violence "multi-generational") but it's also at the heart of the whole "I'm becoming my mom!" thing so many young mother's struggle with. It's one of the reasons circumcision is still so common. We learn in our bodies that "this is how things are done; this is how they should be."

I'm not sure that I agree with the term programming, but I guess what you are referring to with infancy is regarding attachment. What you say about childhood is very true, we parent 'instinctively' based on how we were parented. We have concious memories of that. Infancy has no concious memories but the task of infancy is to form a bond with a primary care giver.

Good attachment enables the infants brain to develop properly, whereas poor attachment will result in psychological problems. Good attachment occurs when infants have their needs consistenly met, poor attachment is where infants needs have been erratically met or not at all. Parents do not choose to attach to their infants, ie it is not a lifestyle choice, and what most often gets in the way is the parents own pychological state or in severe cases, absence of a primary caregiver. A depressed, anxious, hysterical, withdrawn parent may fail to form that adequate attachment with an infant. And of course abuse, neglect, family violence are all major factors that get in the way.

Settling some babies is no easy task. You may have cuddled them, soothed them, fed them, changed them and still they can be still scream the house down. An exhausted baby may cry instead of sleep, and cry and cry and cry. And if you have not one night of this, but 2,3 4 or weeks and see how great your mental health is. And one of the big factors in PND is having an unsettled baby and little support. So teaching settling techniques has been introduced to prevent mum from falling into a psychological heap, because if mum is a basket case - attachment will be damaged. A lot of people fail to understand how difficult this is, especially if you are not a parent or have had babies that settled well.

Quote:
And Magons, "cry it out" isn't just a onetime thing, it's a program which the parent who follows it must absolutely adhere to for weeks or months on end or the "method" will fail. It's born of a philosophy that children left to nature will turn out wrong. It's a very destructive philosophy originating back in the 20's, I believe, a holdover from a larger and very nasty philosophy that believed comforting children--at all--was harmful.

Ok, so my understanding of any 'cry it out' technique is that you do meet babies needs, but when it comes to sleeping, you place them down, let them cry a bit, go into check, and leave for increasing amounts of time. The idea being that you train a baby to settle. A flawed premise perhaps, but actually it does work. Once the routine has been establised, baby goes down to sleep more easily. That's the idea. So if you have a settled baby, you have a happy mum and you have a mum who is more likely to form a good bond with mum.

Now please believe me I am not advocating this as a parenting technique. My honest belief is that 'techniques' are much less important for baby's wellbeing that the psychological health of the pimary caregiver. So you can have a caregiver who can practise any sort of technique, possibly even the dreaded Truby King techniques that you refer to and if the caregiver is going okay and meeting baby's needs, then the baby will do okay. You can have a parent who is struggling psychologically and practising the so called 'attachment techniques' and baby will not do okay.

There is so much judgement on parents, by other parents, by people without children. Everyone is quick to jump in with condemnation and that condemnation usually happens when you are struggling most. You see people tutting and frowning when mothers fail to keep their children under tight supervision, when their baby cries. People disapprove of mothers breastfeeding in public, or of kids being messy, throwing up, having tantrums, crying. If you think its annoying, try stepping into the parents shoes for awhile and maybe give some support instead of judgements and condemnation.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 4:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oddly enough, Magons - if specifically asked, I can be pretty damn supporting, especially of single parents, for exactly the reasons you mention here.
The primary caregiver is a hell of a lot of work, and when available it's always nice to have additional family members who can step in and help shoulder the load and relieve psychological stress on the mommy, even if those "family" members are not necessarily biologically related - parents who actually try have pretty substantial cred with me whether they know it or not, I just tend to stay out of it unless asked, or harm is coming of their actions, is all.

Speakin of which - the poor kitty I also mentioned, we had a talk with the owner, who is quite attached to the cat and is going to try to work it out instead of giving up, but apparently there's some behavioral issues with yon kitty making this difficult, so I left word that she can come to me for assistance, as both hired protector and good neighbor, since the critter really has cottoned to me and I know a hell of a lot about feline behavior - so that's a happy ending there too.

-Frem

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 8:20 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

The only reason a human baby cries blood curdling screams is because it is as of yet unable to put a knife into somebody for neglecting them.

Well they can certainly be angry, but it doesn't have to be from neglect. You can hold a well fed, changed baby and it may still be screaming the house down as you rock and coo et al. And for a young baby that may well be all you can do.

I note that Cav's baby is one, so its not early, early stuff that I would be really, really concerned about.

Ok, and here is the recommendations for 'cry it out'.

Step 1
Put your baby in his crib when he's sleepy but still awake.

Step 2
Say goodnight to your child and leave the room. If he cries when you leave, let him cry for a predetermined amount of time. (See "How long should I leave my child alone?" below.)

Step 3
Go back into the room for no more than a minute or two to pat and reassure your baby. Leave the light off and keep your voice quiet and soothing. Don't pick him up. Leave again while he's still awake, even if he's crying.

Step 4
Stay out of the room for a little bit longer than the first time and follow the same routine, staying out of the room for gradually longer intervals, each time returning for only a minute or two to pat and reassure him, and leaving while he's still awake.

Step 5
Follow this routine until your child falls asleep when you're out of the room.

Step 6
If your child wakes up again later, follow the same routine, beginning with the minimum waiting time for that night and gradually increasing the intervals between visits until you reach the maximum for that night.

Step 7
Increase the amount of time between visits to the nursery each night. In most cases, according to Ferber, your baby will be going to sleep on his own by the third or fourth night – a week at the most. If your child is very resistant after several nights of trying, wait a few weeks and then try again.

How long should I leave my child alone?
In his book, Ferber suggests these intervals:

First night: Leave for three minutes the first time, five minutes the second time, and ten minutes for the third and all subsequent waiting periods.
Second night: Leave for five minutes, then ten minutes, then 12 minutes.
Make the intervals longer on each subsequent night.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_baby-sleep-training-cry-it-out-methods_149
7112.bc?page=2

While you may not agree with this style of parenting, you might want to reconsider the idea that it constites abuse or would result in problems associated with children in Romanian orphanages.

A quick google on any parenting technique will find many, many different variations.

Some recommend co-sleeping, some link co sleeping with SIDS, some recommend cry it out practises, others say that is abusive. There are literally hundreds of articles all saying something different. It is such a minefield out there.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 8:33 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Here is another. Condemning co sleeping.

HUNTSVILLE, Alabama _ "Attachment parenting" has nuzzled its way into the mainstream of 21st century American motherhood. Backers say its four major tenets - breast-feeding into toddlerhood, "wearing" the infant all day in a sling, bringing the baby into the parents' bed to sleep ("co-sleeping"), and sprinting to soothe every cry - build the strongest foundation for raising well-adjusted children.

Critics counter that this brand of child care breeds undisciplined children, guilt-ridden parents, and (as skilled women give up their careers) a diminished national workforce.

The sociological arguments are interesting and debate-worthy. But the really alarming part of attachment parenting - something that actually kills thousands of healthy babies every year - is co-sleeping.

As cozy and nurturing as it might seem, you won't find one credible authority (meaning someone who doesn't make money from book sales, speaking tours, endorsements, and selling baby slings, nursing pillows, bed rails, etc.) advocating bed-sharing for infants.

The American Academy of Pediatrics condemns it, along with the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and most likely your own baby's doctor. All these child safety experts warn that taking a young baby to bed with you invites tragedy - in fact, it is the most common cause of sudden death for babies who weren't premature, born with birth defects, or already very ill.

Hear this from a mother who lost her 2-month old: "My baby was in the bed with me that night, which was very rare. She always slept in her crib but my husband and I had just separated and I was staying with a friend.

"And she was fussy that night, wanting to be held. I fell asleep feeding her. That was the last time I was able to lay her down before laying her to rest!

" My 2-year-old son somehow crawled up in the bed in the early morning. When I woke up (I remember it was 5:56 am) I noticed my son's leg covering my baby's face. She was already gone."

Attachment parenting advocates say that co-sleeping reduces the risk of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. This claim is blatantly untrue.

Co-sleeping babies die in many ways. Parents or siblings roll over on them. This risk is worse if people in bed with the baby are extremely tired (what new parent isn't?), overweight (by now, that's the majority of American adults), intoxicated, or smokers (anytime, not just in bed).

Babies also scoot to the bed's edge and get trapped between the mattress and bed frame. They fall to the floor. They get stuck and suffocate in bedrails meant to keep them safe. They strangle in ribbons and cords from their bedfellows' nightwear. They roll into the hollow of a soft mattress and can't lift their noses to get air. Most dangerous of all sleeping surfaces are waterbeds and sofas, which seem almost designed to force an infant's face down against an airless surface.

Attachment parenting advocates say that co-sleeping reduces the risk of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. This claim is blatantly untrue. In fact, almost two-thirds (59 percent) of sudden deaths in healthy infants happen during co-sleeping.

The safest place for a baby to sleep is in its crib - without pillows, toys, comforters, bumpers or anything else soft in it. For people who can't afford a crib, a dresser drawer (removed from the dresser!) is a perfectly good substitute.

Another claim is that co-sleeping increases breast-feeding. Doubtless, it makes night feedings easier - no dragging yourself from bed, donning a robe and trudging across the room to get the baby. A small crib-like enclosure that sits next to the mother's side of the bed can solve this.

When the baby cries, she lowers the side of his criblet, pulls him to her, nurses him until they're ready to fall asleep - then he's back into his side-car.

It's also argued that co-sleeping is the norm for most of the world's babies. (And therefore safe and right for our culture?) "Most of the world's babies" live in subsistence economies. Food is scarce, and adults spend their days in hard physical labor, making obesity hardly a problem. Family homes are one-room shelters. Beds are floor pads. And infant mortality is terribly high. Why use this comparison to justify co-sleeping for American infants?

Such a heartbreaking irony: wanting only to be good parents, many see co-sleeping as a love story - until it becomes a horror story.

Dr. Alice Chenault is a psychiatrist in Huntsville.

http://blog.al.com/times-views/2012/05/co-sleeping_with_infant_trendy.
html

Co slept as well for awhile. I really am chalking up some 'bad parenting' stickers.

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