The Provisional Population by 1kiki

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I feel like you both get what I'm trying to say.

What struck me is how completely it permeates our lives, to the point where, while we may deeply love our children, we can't imagine let alone create a future for them besides 'do your best and good luck'. We seem to blindly sacrifice both ourselves and our children to some process not under our control. That's effed up.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 5:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

What fast food does to you:

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, March 11, 2013 6:05 PM

It's definitely harder for good parents to raise children properly these days as compared to the past. Young people today are disconnected from the world, happy to be organically and spritually attached to their cell phones. And there are so many undignified and purient distractions available to them via the internet and cable tv that I really don't see how parents can compete for their minds and souls. Our culture has become a vast trash bin that often rewards bad and irresponsible behavior. Only the strongest and most motivated will succeed in having a great life, as opposed to past generations where almost everybody made it.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 6:07 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Where the HELL did you get that picture?

It's sublime, the Colonel and his droogs.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 6:17 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Jong

Here's a question that comes to mind. If children are being led astray by the society 'out there', why do we have a society that puts our children at risk? Who's running it, if not us?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
It's definitely harder for good parents to raise children properly these days as compared to the past. Young people today are disconnected from the world, happy to be organically and spritually attached to their cell phones. And there are so many undignified and purient distractions available to them via the internet and cable tv that I really don't see how parents can compete for their minds and souls. Our culture has become a vast trash bin that often rewards bad and irresponsible behavior. Only the strongest and most motivated will succeed in having a great life, as opposed to past generations where almost everybody made it.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 6:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Jong

Here's a question that comes to mind. If children are being led astray by the society 'out there', why do we have a society that puts our children at risk? Who's running it, if not us?

My wife and I raised our two kids in the 80's and 90's. They played sports in school and they both had part-time jobs. We all got together every night for family dinner, and we talked to each other about everything. They both graduated from good colleges. Now they're both professionals with great careers.

I don't have answers to your questions. Perhaps my references to cell phones and the internet were too simplistic, but honestly I don't understand or approve of much that's going on today. I also don't feel it's my responsibility either. I vote when there's an election, but really all I want is to have a pleasant retirement in a few years.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 6:55 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

That seems like an honest answer. If you wouldn't mind, here's another question: when you vote, do you vote for a society that will have a good place for your children, or do you vote some other interest?

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Monday, March 11, 2013 7:09 PM

I vote like most people, based on my core beliefs and principles. Locally, I generally support school and municipal initiatives, despite already paying extremely high Broward County property taxes.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 7:44 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Thanks for your reply. I would like to pursue this topic further, but I'm not sure you have an interest. For example, it would be interesting for me to understand which things you gladly support, and which you grumble about a little.

Here in my little town, the city recently backed some facade restoration on four local businesses. They were built in the early 1900's but over the years false fronts had been put on. The facades were stripped back to the original brick, and awnings were put up. Now, these buildings are un-reinforced brick in earthquake country so to my mind if you were going to spend city money on private interests, maybe it would have been better to make them safer. Or perhaps it would have been better to invest city money in a more public project that everyone might enjoy, like park improvements. So while I think government spending is OK, I do chafe when it seems to be falling into the hands of a few rather than the many. Here is the 'before', unfortunately there's no inet 'after:

Perhaps you see where I'm going with my question about which things do you approve of more and which less. Is that something you'd care to address?

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Monday, March 11, 2013 7:59 PM

One of the first and best things I learned way back in 11th grade Government class is that "politics" simply means getting what you want. That applies to all levels of government, but the more local the issue, the more it is influenced by the smallest amount of people. I generally don't support any government-funded assistance for private businesses. I'm against subsidies, and I'm against bailouts. But I'm not the one donating large sums of money to politicians to get what I want.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 8:03 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I hope you don't feel slimed by this, but we are remarkably on the same page.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 8:24 PM

I'm fine. I enjoyed the exchange. Thanks.

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Monday, March 11, 2013 8:52 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

People, especially these days, are notoriously short sighted. What feels good _now, what do I want _now. Everyone is taught that if it feels good do it, morality is subjective, if you don't see immediate consequences to your actions then go for it. So people don't plan for ten, twenty years down the road, and they don't generally plan into the next generation or beyond.

I think the other thing is that our instant gratification world has taught us to not deny ourselves any pleasure we seek. Life is hard, so have fun when you can. well all the other kids are doing it so I can too. That's tomorrow so I don't care about it _today. This is a pervasive attitude and it has infected us all in various ways. I do it some, I eat whatever I want whenever I want, I try and have as much fun in life as I can etc. These things are not always wrong, having fun is good after all, but people don't understand that fun can be safe and positive too it seems.

I know that I seek out enjoyment of various forms in my life not because I'm all that into instant gratification, I fancy myself to be a very patient person. But I seek out enjoyments because they're what make life worth living for me. And if life isn't worth living then I can't live anymore, conclude what you will from that, but that's how it is. The joys and pleasures in my life are what keep me going day to day. Sometimes I feel better than others, but when things are really bad I just put all my eggs in the basket of the next fun thing I'll be doing. Fortunately right now things aren't to that point. But fun makes life worth living.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:53 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

International Perspective: U.S. Citizens Live Shorter Lives, Poorer Health

“The report finds that … even advantaged Americans – those who have health insurance, college educations, higher incomes, and healthy behaviors – appear to be sicker than their peers in other rich nations. … This health disadvantage exists even though the U.S. spends more per capita on health care than any other nation. Although documented flaws in the health care system may contribute to poorer health, the panel concluded that many factors are responsible for the nation's health disadvantage.”

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=1349
7

And this is where we have gotten with the assumptions we make that run our society.

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Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:55 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Where the HELL did you get that picture?

It's sublime, the Colonel and his droogs.

Facebook. :)

I always suspected the Colonel was up to a bit of the old ultraviolence.

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Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:22 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I'm still snickering over it. It's great.

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Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

My wife and I raised our two kids in the 80's and 90's. They played sports in school and they both had part-time jobs. We all got together every night for family dinner, and we talked to each other about everything. They both graduated from good colleges. Now they're both professionals with great careers.

I don't have answers to your questions. Perhaps my references to cell phones and the internet were too simplistic, but honestly I don't understand or approve of much that's going on today. I also don't feel it's my responsibility either. I vote when there's an election, but really all I want is to have a pleasant retirement in a few years.

I think your post, like many of your posts, are seeping in nostalgia for a golden past that never existed.

I'm raising my child now, he does sport at school, will get a part time job when he is of age, we eat dinner together most nights at a table. We don't often eat junk or drink 2L of any soft drink, and he has rarely drunk coke.

There have always been good parents and parents who parent badly, and a whole of host of us who do the best we and fit somewhere in between. I don't know if that has changed.

Some things get worse and some things get better.

When my father was growing up, if parents split, kids often ended up in an orphanage, as there was no way mothers could support children economically.
As a child, my father spent 6 months in hospital and nearly died from pneumonia when he would be treated with antibotics and well in weeks today.
My grandmother was never allowed to work in a permanent position as a teacher after she married and was paid substantially less than a male in the same position.
Employers would actively discriminate by advertising jobs and saying 'No Jews, Catholics, Aboriginals etc etc"
Speaking of Aboriginals, they didn't even have the vote until 67, and were restricted where they could live and work.
Family violence was tolerated, even considered worthy of jokes

On the other hand, the pace of life was slower. There was less to spend money on, people had less and were content with less. When I was at university and after, I lived with friends in a house. We found a sofa on the side of the road and carried it home. It was an ugly piece of gose but we didn't care, it was free. We had nothing, shared everything, wanted very little.
The saddest thing for me is seeing places of natural beauty overdeveloped or destroyed. The deterioration in the natural environment is the hardest to bear.

ikiki, in answer to your question, young people's brains are DIFFERENT. They don't understand consequences, can't project into the future the same way that older people can. Most people, at some stage, moderate their behaviour when they get what the results will be.

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Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:52 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You're right - I had forgotten about that about young people's brains.

But other cultures were in control of their society, and engaged their youngsters, usually through some rite of passage. It wouldn't do to have your youngsters rattling around and making chaos.

So, why do we tolerate a society where our children are allowed such destructive choices, and provided with so little security from the society around them?

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Tuesday, March 12, 2013 9:08 PM

Some other cultures probably do it better, but generally that age group 15-25 had the capacity to cause chaos. What we consider as hooligan behaviour was often just dressed up as war and hostility. Look at Alexander the Great, wreaking havoc over the Ancient world. Or the reason Rome developed the Colleseum 'entertainment' or Vikings going on their raids.

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Tuesday, March 12, 2013 9:36 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

From my reading I get the idea that in the past anyway, one of the biggest problems in some places and times was what to do with your young males. The original knights were really roving bandits, semi-tamed by the local bigwigs with promises of equipment and supplies if they would fight for the local ruler. However, while the nobility was to be left alone, the serfs tended to be at the mercy of the knights who never completely gave up their 'rape, pillage and burn' ways.

But not all societies were - or are - like that. The American Indian I think kept the jostling pretty well confined to between young males. The San Bushmen, unlike many native populations, haven’t yet unraveled b/c the young males are devoted to those marathon hunts (known as persistence hunting). And while I can't comment on 'Vikings' in general, I know Eric the Red, who sold people on the idea of Greenland as a paradise in one huge con job - was in fact banished b/c he wouldn't abide by the rules and keep the peace.

So, when I think about thousands of years of history, I think of the persistence of cultures to this day that seem to have figured out what to do with those young males as a potentially disruptive force.

Anyway, I need to get on to bed. But I'm still looking for answers to the questions - why are we, the adult members, not in control of our own society? Who is? And why do we tolerate a world where we and our children are left to the mercy of social forces not under our control?

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Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:25 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I feel like you both get what I'm trying to say.

What struck me is how completely it permeates our lives, to the point where, while we may deeply love our children, we can't imagine let alone create a future for them besides 'do your best and good luck'. We seem to blindly sacrifice both ourselves and our children to some process not under our control. That's effed up.

There are pretty much three ways to live outside the system nowadays. You can subsistence farm, although you still own land you probably had to pay someone for, you fall under the system of law of the geopolitical boundary you live in, and you might have property tax - meaning you might have to have a side job. Or, you can fall completely through the cracks in society, not own anything, and eat only what you can scrounge from other people's wasteful behaviour. Or, you can get a boat, and try to live off the ocean, but you'll be competing with commercial fishing businesses, which already stress native populations of fish.

I've been thinking that maybe some kind of community that combines one and three might be useful, and you could also have a bit of 2 as a nomadic corrollary, since such a society is likely to come under attack.

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Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:41 AM

BYTEMITE

Magons: thanks. I wasn't really sure how to deal with the anti-young-people rhetoric that was starting to crop up in this thread.

The mortgage crisis wasn't exactly caused by college kids or people out of highschool you know. Banks were the primary culprit, and they were targeting people who already had families and jobs - but not enough financial security to really justify the loans they were offering.

Scowling at our brains rotting from internet and video games and texting on phones is pretty similar to outcries about satanic devil music in previous generations. Every generation has fads, and I'm sorry to say, every generation of teenager tends to concentrate more on their hormones and their friends than on self-improvement.

That's not to say the situations are ENTIRELY parallel, however. Due to inflation and the standards of living, many people of my generation may find it impossible to go to college on the wages they can earn and the financial support they can get, and also find it impossible to afford a home early on so many stay with their parents until they're almost thirty.

Our generation IS worse off than the previous generation. But it's not because we're easily distracted materialistic self-indulgent slackers, not any more so than previous generations have been.

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Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

My wife and I raised our two kids in the 80's and 90's. They played sports in school and they both had part-time jobs. We all got together every night for family dinner, and we talked to each other about everything. They both graduated from good colleges. Now they're both professionals with great careers.

I think your post, like many of your posts, are seeping in nostalgia for a golden past that never existed.

Yeah I'm nostalgic. From my perspective the past was golden. The first brand new car I bought was a 1974 Monte Carlo. It was gorgeous and cost $2,800. When I got married the same year our beautiful 2-bedroom garden apartment was $135 a month. Gas was around 80 cents. We had no trouble supporting ourselves, taking frequent vacations, and saving for a house. After ten years we bought a home in a great neighborhood for $290,000. Today that home is worth $1.4 million. And we were just very average earners. I don't think the average couple can do those things anymore. Out of control inflation and un-payable personal debt has ruined that dream for many people today.

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Wednesday, March 13, 2013 7:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Some part of it is also that kids these days are on average smarter in some ways, and a bit more cynical and mistrusting of us and our society in part due to being far more able to communicate with EACH OTHER, even if 90% of that communication seems inane to us - we can no longer sell them the lies which were used to keep them in line, keep them climbing the ladder, fighting for the hook... and thus they can see exactly what their function and status is to the society which they're in.

Most folks block out large sections of their own childhood, which is where that yearning for glory-days-that-never-were comes from in us adults, although those with edetic or semi-edetic memories don't really have that option - reason I mention this is cause were one to focus back on their youth, and all the lies they believed in, and AT THAT POINT expose them for what they were, what then, folks ?

Really, when it comes clear no one cares a whit about them, on top of the pre-existing nudges via our social and educational systems towards a form of learned sociopathy, OF COURSE they don't give a rats ass about anything besides themselves - when have we ever given them a reason to ?

Religion, oddly enough, can in some cases subvert this, but given how inhumane and twisted the practice of it has become I can't really say that there's substantial longterm benefit, and really it's just another sham in most applications to give false hope to the hopeless in order to get them to do what we want them to do.

When was the last time you asked a kid what THEY want, what THEY would like to do, what THEY believe in, what kind of future THEY would like to see ?

That's if they'd even tell you instead of feeding you the usual social response-challenge pablum, all the more obvious when they quote it at you verbatim without an ounce of emotion or belief, all pro-forma and fuck off, keeping their own self closed up behind the facade cause it's not worth the ridiculous levels of punishment being honest or acting out towards you might entail.

Seriously people, why in hell would that have any hope of concept of future when we never offer em any for real, and lie to them and pretend we do ?

-Frem

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Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:12 AM

Meh, lots of generalisations.

Here are some more....

Nostalgia - by its very nature, you look at the past through rose coloured glasses - you remember what was good and block out what wasn't. It's something you do as you get older, but its also false and misleading.

Young people - have always bugged older people. Older people will ALWAYS disapprove. Some of it will be about nostalgia, remembering the past falsely that 'young people were different in my day'. Wrong. Young people have always taken risks, are more aggressive, don't think of consequences. Plus, there is all that potent sexual energy stuff. Some of the disapproval is envy, only few are honest enough to admit it. Once your youth has gone, you realise how much you didn't value what you took for granted, your energy and vitality, your looks and body, the way the world seems fresh and full of possibility.

Not everything is doom and gloom for young people. It really depends on your economic circumstances, and the income (often) of your parents. I see youngsters travel a lot more, and allow themselves to enjoy their time. Gap years are becoming much more common - although admittedly my own gap year spilled out to about a decade. ;) I see parents support kids for longer, and personally I think families are actually closer than when I was young, when kids flew the nest a lot earlier and had little to do with parents. I see youngsters struggling to find the money to buy a home due to the incredibly high cost of housing here, and if they do want to settle down and start a family, it can be pretty hard.

Generalisations aside, my neices and nephews are all pretty awesome. They range from an ambitious lawyer, to a surburban young mum, to a sweet drifter who works in a shop. They are all smart and clued in about the world, much, much more knowledgable about stuff than I ever was. None of them guzzle 2L bottles of coke, although I cannot be too sure about their beer consumption.

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Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:24 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
This thread is just some musings I've been having.

A couple of years ago I saw three healthy, fit teen boys climbing into the cab of a pick-up, each drinking out of a 2L bottle of what looked like cola. I'd bet they weren't diet colas, and for all I know each had a hefty dose of alcohol. And it got me to thinking ... would those boys ever learn to take reasonable care of themselves ... or would they find themselves at 40, or 50 or 60 with diabetes, or high blood pressure, or a beer gut and a fatty liver?

Now, where I work we've had some new hires. All are mid twenties to early thirties, very intelligent, extremely well-educated, and socially clued-in. But they all make fast-food their staple and seem to want to live as quickly as possible. As best I can see, they're like those boys, treating themselves without a care for their future.

Why do we not teach our children to care for themselves? And why do we not care for ourselves until we crash into some medical wall?

Well, we're taught to put something else first. Maybe it's popularity (so Anglo teen girls smoke to keep from eating so they can be thin), maybe it's money (so people work crazy hours and leave no time for themselves), maybe it's the job. And of course the vast majority of adult working Americans don't have the luxury of putting themselves on their schedule - they're living in poverty and working two or more jobs to make ends meet.

It's like we need an excuse for our existence. We ourselves don't actually count for anything. And we don't insist on a society that counts us as being worth anything. Unless we have a job. Or popularity. Or toys and cool stuff.

As long as we have that excuse for being we are. But as an individual, we don't have the right to a future or a society that accepts us. We are provisional people.

That's all honest and very poinent pondering 1iki....

You pretty much spoke my childhood-into-adulthood there....

"Killing me softly with your song".... as it were.....

My dad, as good as he is with money and how much he cares about his kids philandered his first marriage and has lived hell on earth ever since....

My mom replaced her (pre-dad days) of Bulimia with (post-dad days) of Workaholism and then replaced that with "God" and never allowed her second husband, who is still trying, to fill that void for her.

My closest uncle just did what I did and smoked and drank until he died, but then he threw everyone a curve ball and covered his mom's garage in shrink wrap and blew is brains out....... and just like most of our grand gestures, he failed at that and had to suffer on "life support" systems that likely cost the tax payers of Illinois 2 million dollars for the two further hours of pain and suffering they caused a man who just wanted to DIE....

I have no illusions that I will live the rest of my life alone and die alone....

I have no desire to kill myself either, but it is a pretty lonely existence.

Although I consider myself a "watcher", I can't deny that I do my share of judging...

I really could have made a girl happy and content and safe in another life....

Stay away from me as if I had the plague....

Whatever demons you have will only befriend my own....

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Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:58 AM