Mandatory Participation in Society by BYTEMITE

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mandatory Participation in Society

POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 22:30
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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 3:06 PM

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/maine-hermit-ordered-to-re-enter-soc
iety-with-counseling

This is why I dislike same said society.

Yes, he stole food, but they're acting like HE'S the crazy one for wanting out of this insanity.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 4:16 PM

AGENTROUKA

If he hadn't been stealing, this would probably have ended differently. I think they decided to force him back into society because he wasn't truly apart from it. He burgled houses for supplies. That's not an independent, self-sufficient, thought-through existence.

I understand resenting the choice to force him to participate in a way of life he doesn't want. But it's also not reasonable to pretend his way of life was acceptable because he intruded on other people to make it possible. Other people exist, and just having to deal with that fact is not an unfair burden, it's simply a fact. And his way of creating the space he needed was flawed and unsustainable.

It's a sad case. I hope he'll be able to find support enough to create a way of life he can at least tolerate.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:43 PM

BYTEMITE

Yeah, but making him come back after years not driving and probably with no familiarity with the internet or new media? Let ALONE not having any way to get or hold a job, or an interest in doing so? Seems cruel - well meaning "this is for your own good" that will end up with the guy suiciding within six to nine months.

They wanted to help him, let's see the therapist they appoint spend some money out of pocket to buy him some fruit trees and seeds to plant then release him back out into the wild. But this isn't about helping him, this is about making him conform. :/ That's what I object to.

There are other intolerable coercive techniques used by society to keep us all in and dependent, and dare I say slaves to the dollar, and I object to that as well. It's inhumane.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:00 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
They wanted to help him, let's see the therapist they appoint spend some money out of pocket to buy him some fruit trees and seeds to plant then release him back out into the wild. But this isn't about helping him, this is about making him conform. :/ That's what I object to.

What is the alternative? Put him into jail? Because he was breaking the law, breaking into people's homes and stealing from them. Which is the big issue.

They didn't pluck him out of the woods where he was minding his own business. He entered society of his own volition, in an illegal way, which is why they are dealing with this case in the first place.

...and doesn't it take years before fruit trees produce actual food?

Don't get me wrong, in another scenario, I would have applauded some form of community/charitable support to give this man the opportunity to live in isolation since he couldn't do it on his own, but this, too, is a form of participating in society and would have required efforts at communication from him. Instead he chose to violate people's homes by intruding on them. That is not okay, no matter how badly he wanted to escape society.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:02 PM

BYTEMITE

I mean, okay, here's another comparable albeit fictional example.

Malcolm Reynolds and the crew of Serenity. We all like Firefly, right? But here's this guy and some friends/coworkers/employees who have been kicked in the face by society and fallen through the cracks. They survive not by being self-sufficient but by stealing from others and living apart from society.

Are we going to say the best possible outcome for them is to be arrested and then put through therapy with people they hate and mistrust so they fit in with a society they hate and mistrust and then perpetuate that economic machine with some soulless abusive job somewhere? We're thinking that could POSSIBLY work on someone like Mal who is, let's face it, emotionally wrecked, probably for life. We're saying that could work for RIVER, to be gobbled up by the same machine she escaped and for her to become a successful crazy evil mind-controlled super-soldier psychic assassin.

We're talking people so hurt by society that the idea of them having to go BACK to that is almost revoltingly bad. It's... wrong. Somehow more wrong than them having to steal to survive.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:02 PM

AGENTROUKA

It can be hard to keep up with your edits.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
There are other intolerable coercive techniques used by society to keep us all in and dependent, and dare I say slaves to the dollar, and I object to that as well. It's inhumane.

This may very well be true. I don't disagree with that. But I don't think this case is a perfect illustration of it.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:06 PM

BYTEMITE

Well, no, it's not a perfect allegory for the many, many flaws in this society that cause me to be resentful and rebellious, as admittedly this guy has indirectly hurt some people's means of livelyhood, whereas other people are hurt by society and never hurt other people in turn.

But it's an interesting jumping off point for the discussion about free-will, and choice, and ethics, and humanity.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:13 PM

BYTEMITE

>...and doesn't it take years before fruit trees produce actual food?

Not always. I've seen yearling apple tears you can buy from a store get a dozen or so apples. But to be enough to feed a guy for long enough to be independent you'd have to get them at a more advanced age.

Quote:
Put him into jail? Because he was breaking the law, breaking into people's homes and stealing from them. Which is the big issue.

Why do we need to punish people for trying to survive? That's what this feels like. It's punitive. It's not trying to help him. His actions were not malicious, but this, feels like it is.

And, of course, this is assuming that his confession was not coerced. Communities often frown on squatters, and trump charges might be levied against them for various reasons.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:19 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I mean, okay, here's a perfect albeit fictional example.

Malcolm Reynolds and the crew of Serenity. We all like Firefly, right? But here's this guy and other people who have been kicked in the face by society and fallen through the cracks. They survive not by being self-sufficient but by stealing from others and living apart from society.

Are we going to say the best possible outcome for them is to be arrested and then put through therapy with people they hate and mistrust so they fit in with a society they hate and mistrust and then perpetuate that economic machine with some soulless job somewhere? We're talking people so hurt by society that the idea of them having to go BACK to that is almost revoltingly bad. It's... wrong. Somehow more wrong than them having to steal to survive.

Ask the people they steal from what they think. If that was truly how they made their living. Mostly, Mal and crew smuggle. They dodge tariffs or taxes. Stealing is an occasional choice and nearly each time they apply moral standards to it that raise it somewhat beyond breaking into people's homes to steal their supplies. It's rich ("war criminal")-people, easily recompensated companies or slave traders. They don't steal supplies from regular people as a means of surviving. Plus, I sincerely doubt that more than Mal and Zoe actively revile society as a whole. And even those two revile the government system, not the people.

Also, they are not apart from society, they are reasonably well entrenched in a more or less established society of (petty) criminals in the border worlds. Some of their jobs are even legal. They have regular interactions with official society at ports, during inspections, etc. They carry a member of official society on board. Two if you count Book, who officially is a regular civilian.

It's an imperfect example. They are not nearly as isolated as this man made himself to be, and their means of surviving are far more multi-faceted and less intrusive on regular people as a general rule.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:26 PM

BYTEMITE

But, say they are arrested, because they do steal and break laws.

According to this case, the proper course of action for Zoe and Mal and River (who I agree are the ones who would specifically object to being part of the Alliance's concept of society) would be to rehabilitate them into society. It seems wrong to me.

Of course it doesn't help that the wording used to describe the guy getting "therapy" for this is the creepiest possible way to say it.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:34 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Put him into jail? Because he was breaking the law, breaking into people's homes and stealing from them. Which is the big issue.

Why do we need to punish people for trying to survive? That's what this feels like. It's punitive. It's not trying to help him. His actions were not malicious, but this, feels like it is.

But his extreme circumstances and those actions were his personal choice. He could have survived in other ways, it was his isolation he was trying to preserve by stealing - and isolation that he couldn't sustain himself. Not malicious but selfish. That's not the same as stealing food to survive because there is no alternative.

I see no maliciousness in holding him to account for that, the same you would any other person who stole. I don't think it's wrong to say "this is not okay", and setting up consequences.

At this point, he has zero resources for anything. He can't return to the unsustainable lifestyle. If he had NOT broken the law, I'd be down with making a concerted effort at funding his isolation. But he used the society he wanted to reject. That's not an honest living. It's not 100% unfair to make him face the reality of other people for a bit. Counselling actually is a good idea. It might also allow him the opportunity to make contacts that will eventually support him in his wish to be isolated, without having to compromise that ideal.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:36 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
But, say they are arrested, because they do steal and break laws.

According to this case, the proper course of action for Zoe and Mal and River (who I agree are the ones who would specifically object to being part of the Alliance's concept of society) would be to rehabilitate them into society. It seems wrong to me.

You don't get me. I don't think the cases are comparable. Mal and Zoe are part of society. They do things outside of it's official sanctions, but they are a part of it, no matter what Mal may like to think. I really don't think the comparison applies.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:40 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
But his extreme circumstances and those actions were his personal choice. He could have survived in other ways, it was his isolation he was trying to preserve by stealing and isolation that he couldn't sustain himself. Not malicious but selfish. That's not the same as stealing food to survive because there is no alternative.

When you have no money and you can't get a job, it is actually kind of the same thing. It may have started out as a choice but after about 5 years of hermitage I doubt he COULD get a job anymore.

Quote:
It might also allow him the opportunity to make contacts that will eventually support him in his wish to be isolated, without having to compromise that ideal.

You're more optimistic than I am. Like I said, the way I see it he's either forced to become a wage slave and can't take it (just as he clearly couldn't take it before), or, he eventually returns to the wilderness to continue this life of crime and the next time they do jail him, or worse happens to him. There is no good outcome I can see for this case.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:51 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
When you have no money and you can't get a job, it is actually kind of the same thing. It may have started out as a choice but after about 5 years of hermitage I doubt he COULD get a job anymore.

What do people trying not to starve generally do in the US? I suspect, staying in the woods and stealing from homes is not the #1 plan.

It'd be way down on the list of viable solutions. I'm pretty sure he still had other choices.

I don't really think it's reasonable to romanticize this man's choices. He wanted a certain lifestyle, couldn't sustain it and instead of trying other solutions he turned to stealing. His plan sucked. It fell apart.

Quote:

Quote:
It might also allow him the opportunity to make contacts that will eventually support him in his wish to be isolated, without having to compromise that ideal.

Do you think this is really how it will turn out?

You're more optimistic than I am. Like I said, the way I see it he's either forced to become a wage slave and can't take it (just as he clearly couldn't take it before), or, he eventually returns to the wilderness to continue this life of crime and the next time they do jail him, or worse happens to him. There is no good outcome I can see for this case.

I don't know what will happen. It's a crappy situation. But I also don't think he is a hero of some sort, wronged for unfair reasons. He made seriously bad choices. And overlooking his stealing would require pretending he had zero control, which is simply not true.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:51 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
But, say they are arrested, because they do steal and break laws.

According to this case, the proper course of action for Zoe and Mal and River (who I agree are the ones who would specifically object to being part of the Alliance's concept of society) would be to rehabilitate them into society. It seems wrong to me.

You don't get me. I don't think the cases are comparable. Mal and Zoe are part of society. They do things outside of it's official sanctions, but they are a part of it, no matter what Mal may like to think. I really don't think the comparison applies.

Perhaps I don't understand. I'm not sure how choosing to live in a vehicle out in space, often hundreds of thousands of miles away from any other humans but a select chosen group that also engages in illegal activity (including Inara) is very different then this hermit.

I mean, so there are multiple hermits in that case and it's more like a hobo colony in a spaceship than a single guy out on his own. But they seem very isolated to me, by choice, and several of them seem to dislike society and want nothing to do with society, and they steal and commit crime.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:55 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Perhaps I don't understand. I'm not sure how choosing to live in a vehicle out in space, often hundreds of thousands of miles away from any other humans but a select chosen group that also engages in illegal activity (including Inara) is very different then this hermit.

I mean, so there are multiple hermits in that case and it's more like a hobo colony in a spaceship than a single guy out on his own. But they seem very isolated to me, by choice, and several of them seem to dislike society and want nothing to do with society, and they steal and commit crime.

We should probably agree to disagree on this comparison now. :) It would derail the thread to analyse it all, though it may be as simple as our definitions of society being different.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:56 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
What do people trying not to starve generally do in the US? I suspect, staying in the woods and stealing from homes is not the #1 plan.

You would be shocked. But it's true in a number of places in the world as well.

Quote:
It'd be way down on the list of viable solutions. I'm pretty sure he still had other choices.

When someone starts stealing food for survival, I can guarantee that they've exhausted other choices.

I mean, look at the pictures of the guy. Sunken eye sockets. I think I see lines at the corners of his mouth. This guy wasn't stealing for the lols. Starvation was actually a real thing for him. Peanut Butter is a rich food, lots of nutrients and high in proteins, and I'm not sure he was focusing on peanut butter as a luxury item.

Quote:
I don't know what will happen. It's a crappy situation. But I also don't think he is a hero of some sort, wronged for unfair reasons. He made seriously bad choices. And overlooking his stealing would require pretending he had zero control, which is simply not true.

I don't think he's a hero. No one is. I'm saying that his life choices, while flawed and leading him to steal from other people, are still his life choices and appear to represent the only way he could envision living. So forcing him to live a different life is cruel - what would not be cruel is to give him help in living the life he wants to live so that it would not require stealing. But I doubt that is what "therapy to rejoin society" means. Thus my objection.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 7:01 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
We should probably agree to disagree on this comparison now. :) It would derail the thread to analyse it all, though it may be as simple as our definitions of society being different.

Aw, okay. It seemed like a fun conversation. But I can see how having fundamentally different basic definitions could get frustrating really fast.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:30 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Here, lemme clarify it for you.
Theft is really in the end just a matter of SCALE.

-Frem

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