Safe - Some things I noticed. by JCobb

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Safe - Some things I noticed.

POSTED BY: JCOBB
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 06:57
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VIEWED: 10119
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Sunday, June 20, 2004 6:41 PM

Sorry, most of this will be in spoiler tags, but bear with me.

Spoilers below. If you have not watched the Firefly episode Safe then read at your own risk.

Select to view spoiler:

I was watching Safe a little earlier, and I noticed that River mentioned that "daddy" would return, (this was after she and Simon were kidnapped). Of course, later on in the episode Mal does return. Now, taken in context one can easily assume that she was talking about her real father, but maybe this hints at something deeper? Earlier on in the episode she throws something not unlike a temper tauntrum when Mal enters, (granted she was in the midst of a tantrum with Simon) and it struck me then as something children would do with their parents. Only now, after hearing her possible preminition of Mal's return does it kind of click.

So, did anyone else notice that, or think it was relevent, or am I overanylzing?

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:30 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Select to view spoiler:

I'd say that is possible that she's refering to the bio dad.

Also, it may also be that she was refering to Mal. He is kind of the "father" of the crew.

She could also be refering to the one who made her that way. It was the "birth" of the new her.

Just some thoughts... I don't know, I'm really tired... zzzzz

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:47 PM

JCOBB

Aye, sometimes I worry that people, (myself included) read too much into River, but there are just so many weird things in her character.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Sunday, June 20, 2004 8:39 PM

SERGEANTX

I think you're right on target. That whole episode was premised on the theme of 'home' and 'family'. It was really the first instance where Simon actually understood what it meant to be part of a family. Especially in contrast to the highly conditional support he was remembering from his real father.

River as a character really got under my skin. The funny thing is I couldn't stand her the first few episodes. If I'd seen 'Safe' in the proper order she'd have made a lot more sense (altogether now - 'GORRAMN FOX'). I remember first seeing this episode and feeling just crushed when she confesses to Simon that she understands what's going on, that she realizes how screwed up she is and how much he's sacrificed for her.

Can I tell you my pet River theory? Ok, cool.

I think River was a sacrifice of sorts. I think that Simon and River were genetically altered babies. The price the Tams paid for have a genetically superior son, was their daughter. It makes perfect sense. River was raised by the Tams on behalf of the 'Blue Hands' for their nefarious purposes. They got to keep Simon.

It explains the parents' disregard of River, which was first made clear in this episode, and also their unwillingness to admit something was wrong when Simon confronted them.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, June 20, 2004 8:55 PM

CLEANER

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

I think River was a sacrifice of sorts. I think that Simon and River were genetically altered babies. The price the Tams paid for have a genetically superior son, was their daughter. It makes perfect sense.

I always thought that myself but that Simon was a failure, not quite good enough for the program and that the parents were probably heavily involved in Blue Sun.

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Sunday, June 20, 2004 9:41 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I think River was a sacrifice of sorts. I think that Simon and River were genetically altered babies. The price the Tams paid for have a genetically superior son, was their daughter.

I'm sure you're right about the genetic engineering. My feeling is less that River is a sacrifice, than this is her entry into a mandarin class with enhanced people-management abilities; Son #1 enters the Medical Elite, Daughter #1 enters Government Service, and the Tam Family extends its network in good middle-class (by the European definition) fashion.

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Monday, June 21, 2004 4:07 AM

RADHIL

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I think River was a sacrifice of sorts. I think that Simon and River were genetically altered babies. The price the Tams paid for have a genetically superior son, was their daughter. It makes perfect sense. River was raised by the Tams on behalf of the 'Blue Hands' for their nefarious purposes. They got to keep Simon.

It explains the parents' disregard of River, which was first made clear in this episode, and also their unwillingness to admit something was wrong when Simon confronted them.

No offense to your theory, my brain just goes "Nah."

What was shown in the Safe episode through Simon's flashbacks explains enough, if you just dig at it a little. The Tam parents were simply concerned with their social standing, their dinners and their appearance of a well bred family. Simon, as a respected surgeon, helped this appearance, and so gained attention. River, perhaps as a more whimsical and artistic sort (in spite of mind-blowing genius in all areas), or perhaps simply as a girl instead of a boy, did not.

You can see this already in motion in the very first flashback, where River is quickly dismissed while the senior Tam is hyping it up with his son. It's continued in the second, where the regard is for Simon's career, not for Simon himself, least of all for River. It's clinched in the third, with the father's profile in question, and the final question: whether he's coming to dinner. It's not blatantly malevolent, so it's harder to pick up on, but there's no mistaking the apathy. And it was always there - just not always for Simon. Only when he became a hindrance.

Honestly, I think that's more monstrous than any Faustian deal they could have struck. And so to my mind, the more likely true.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Monday, June 21, 2004 4:16 AM

SIGMANUNKI

~ 8 hrs later and rested

JCobb:
True, hopefully the BDM will shed some light on this subject

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, June 21, 2004 6:14 AM

JCOBB

I don't know, Radhil, it seems to me more like they were "good" parents, as far as the Alliance is concerned. I don't know if they cared more or less for River, (though Simon did appear to be more of the favorite). It struck me more that they just bought into whatever the government told them. River went to a government run facility, and, in the parents mind, the government would not have any reason for hurting their little girl. I think that Simon's eventual rebellion in Safe only set to provide him with some support from the viewer, (nothing like disobeying your own father and getting in trouble with the government wins support in most of the public's eye, I think Heinlein hit the nail on the head, American's, in general, don't like authority, or has he put it, cops) and to show that, in reality, he isn't so different from the crew.

Maybe not though, everything posted here makes a certain level of sense.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Monday, August 2, 2004 3:08 PM

ODALISQUE

See, it's funny, when I saw the thread title the things I noticed in Safe were that Summer and Sean stnad way too close and have way too much chemistry to play brother and sister, but that really has nothing to do with this.

The crew of Serenity do have a family feel and Mal, being the captain gets to be the dad. I think River knows the difference between Mal and daddy Tam, but she also knows that someone has always been protecting her, first her dad, then Mal, so in her crazy brain they meshed? If that makes sense....

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Monday, August 2, 2004 10:41 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:
everything posted here makes a certain level of sense.

Ya. Kinda expands the possibilities for the BDM, don't it? And NO, I don't wanna know which way Joss is going with it.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Robben Ford & the Blue Line

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Tuesday, August 3, 2004 6:59 AM

ZEEK

You guys think we would have seen the Tam parents again if the series had stayed on TV? I mean it sorta makes you wonder...if a little thing like walking into a jail or whatever is enough to "ruin" the Tam family reputation then surely having two fugitive children has had some negative effects. Maybe the parents are lower class citizens now. Maybe Blue Sun would use them as blackmail to draw Simon and River out of hiding. I think there was potential for many different stories involving them.

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Tuesday, August 3, 2004 12:00 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
You guys think we would have seen the Tam parents again if the series had stayed on TV? I mean it sorta makes you wonder...if a little thing like walking into a jail or whatever is enough to "ruin" the Tam family reputation then surely having two fugitive children has had some negative effects. Maybe the parents are lower class citizens now. Maybe Blue Sun would use them as blackmail to draw Simon and River out of hiding. I think there was potential for many different stories involving them.

Taking the parents and using them as bait for Simon & River sounds like the heavy handed Alliance we have come to know & love. However, I think it would be more interesting, and in keeping with what we saw of their father, if the Alliance dealt with Tam Sr (bribe/threat/good-of-River/good-of-the-Alliance) to obtain his active cooperation in catching his children.

Way cool suggestion.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Robbie Robertson, "Broken Arrow", from "Time: a Sense of Place"

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Tuesday, August 3, 2004 4:42 PM

JEBBYPAL

Radhil wrote:

Quote:
You can see this already in motion in the very first flashback, where River is quickly dismissed while

Hmmm...can't wait to rewatch Safe again to see if this is true or not, but I disagree on this one flashback (the others, yeah, i agree can be interpreted that way). See, I experienced this scene alot myself..I mean river is what, maybe 8 yrs old here? Granted, gifted beyond belief, but nevertheless still a child. If Simon has not been allowed to have something yet, his parents may recognize that he may become very annoyed/resentful if River is allowed to have the same things before he could---hence, no handheld for her. Additionally, depending on her classes etc she might very well not need it yet (though then again, yeah, she's helping simon w/ his work).
Anyway, I didn't see that flashback as a dismissal of River mostly because as a child of that age, i doubt her parents would be expecting her to pick her career of choice yet, hence i doubt they'd written her off yet. More, I think the flashback was to show the "scenarios" that river and simon would play with to give a basis for understanding the future flashback you talked about.

Just my two cents...but I am gonna watch that flashback more critically next time;)

The Strawberry Monkey
http://p221.ezboard.com/bfireflyfanficawards

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Tuesday, August 3, 2004 5:59 PM

STATIC

See. . .

I have a younger sister. She's only 2 years younger. . .but I still understand. This was not a 'dismissal' from an uncaring or unloving parent.

MY theory on the whole Tam thing. . .

The reason Mom and Dad behaved the way they did. . .I think Simon was threatened. I think they were trying to do as much as they could, in a slightly misguided way, to protect the one child they had left, once they realized TOO LATE that River was as good as gone.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 7:07 AM

MER

Everything about the whole crew family thing has been stated.

River could be a mistake. Maybe the Tams wanted another son or the mother didn't expect to get another child and had no choice of keeping her.

OR

Maybe they thought River had problems like Autism (sp?) so they felt there was no need to know what her future would hold. Simon said so himself in "Serenity" that the family thought she had it. Maybe the parents still believed that and weren't convinced that River was smart.

I just hope Joss elaborates why the parents ignore River. @___@

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Wednesday, August 4, 2004 7:14 AM

SIKKUKUT

Quote:
Originally posted by MER:
Maybe they thought River had problems like Autism (sp?) so they felt there was no need to know what her future would hold. Simon said so himself in "Serenity" that the family thought she had it.

Hrmmmm? I don't know what line you're referring to. And I've seen "Serenity" ten times (okay, so I missed the control stick thing til I watched the commentary, but who didn't? I pay pretty close attention to the lines).

Very interesting theory, though. What's the line?

As for other speculations in this thread, I honestly think that the "sinister" explanation of the Tam family and the "normal" one are equally possible, with "normal" edging out the other only because of... well, its normality. And I consider it quite likely that we would have seen the Tams again, at least in flashbacks.

____________________________
"You're mean. Firefly's making me reconsider my lifelong devotion to Star Trek." --My mother

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 6:41 AM

MER

*After rechecking ep. "Serenity"*

Line referring to:

Simon:"River was more than gifted. She...
she was a gift. Everything she did,
music, math, theoretical physics --
even-even dance -- there was nothing
that didn't come as naturally to her
as breathing does to us. She could be a real... brat about it,
too. I mean, she used to --"

Gorram it! It never mentioned her being Autisic (sp?). Where in the hell did I get that theory from? O_o

=_= I was wrong. It could be part of some other theory that I got mixed up in mine or the way "gift" was said (hoping it's not a bad thing in the Tam Family). I'm not sure.

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 6:57 AM

KNIBBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by odalisque:

HEY!!!!! That's my identity on several lists. I love paintings of odalisques and as a belly dancer, fit the description :)

Here's a nice list of the genre (beware of the list compiler's own interpretation and ... kinks)
http://www.orientalist-art.org.uk/

Here's my absolute favorite:
http://www.orientalist-art.org.uk/weiz.html

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 7:42 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

The shooting script is pretty clear on why the Tam's act the way they do.
People do come out of the school, they're weird as hell, but they come out alive.
They're terrified of what the government will do to them if they try and interfere.

check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 12:47 PM

MER

So how do the Tams treat River? I keep thinking they neglect her, but I'm not sure.

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Friday, August 6, 2004 1:21 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Impossible to say from the SS, it's a completely different scene in which River isn't even in.

check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

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Friday, August 6, 2004 2:14 AM

KALIMEERI

Quote:
Originally posted by MER:
So how do the Tams treat River? I keep thinking they neglect her, but I'm not sure.

The parents do seem to 'dismiss' River a bit, but she is, after all, the 'baby' of the family. In family dynamics, a lot of the time parents tend to discount the youngest in favor of the oldest.

It does seem to go beyond this, though. The parents do seem to be totally involved with their own lives, rather than with the kids. The two children, IMO, had only each other.

One of the scripts (which was revised) explores Simon's resentment against his father. It left me with the impression that the children were given everything ... except love and support. It goes a long way into explaining why Simon can't relate to Kaylee. He doesn't know how.

Jen dao mei.

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 6:44 PM

SHEPHERDQ

Quote:
Originally posted by kalimeeri:
Quote:
Originally posted by MER:
So how do the Tams treat River? I keep thinking they neglect her, but I'm not sure.

One of the scripts (which was revised) explores Simon's resentment against his father. It left me with the impression that the children were given everything ... except love and support. It goes a long way into explaining why Simon can't relate to Kaylee. He doesn't know how.

Just my HO, but I would think that he also has a problem trying to find a common ground to talk to her on. He concentrated on schooling so missed out on many of the social graces needed for peer.. has the graces for fancy dinner and polite company, just not with the opposite gender.

Bless you

The Journey is the worthier part.
www.southdownabby.com

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Monday, August 9, 2004 7:21 AM

BRUISERSMOM

I wonder if we'll see Mr. and Mrs. Tam again in the movie too. I wonder what happened to them. I think that they denied knowing anything but wonder if they had any exposure to information about Simon's actions during the legal process that would compromise their safety. They were probably brought in for questioning at the very least which means they have to know the charges and something about what Simon did in order to say that they don't know anything about it. Blue Sun doesn't like people knowing anything about their operation. They killed the cops in Ariel just for taking basic information while booking Simon and River.

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Monday, August 9, 2004 10:01 AM

BLEYDDYN

Quote:
Originally posted by BruisersMom:
They killed the cops in Ariel just for taking basic information while booking Simon and River.

Did they? Another interpretation just sprang to mind. What if they keep killing people not because of what they might have learned from River, but because of what River might have done to them? Subverted them in some way, maybe.

Ok, seems less likely to me than the more usual explanation that they are just removing any possible witnesses, but it is another possibility.

--Bleyddyn

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Monday, August 9, 2004 10:34 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bleyddyn:
Quote:
Originally posted by BruisersMom:
They killed the cops in Ariel just for taking basic information while booking Simon and River.

Did they? Another interpretation just sprang to mind. What if they keep killing people not because of what they might have learned from River, but because of what River might have done to them? Subverted them in some way, maybe.

Ok, seems less likely to me than the more usual explanation that they are just removing any possible witnesses, but it is another possibility.

--Bleyddyn

ooohhhh I like it. Nice theory.

I would have to go with the standard theory of cleaning up evidence but I like the second and still plausible possibility.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:26 AM

BRUISERSMOM

I came up with my interpretation from the name of that chapter in the on the DVDs. The name was No Witnesses or No Evidence or something like that. I also came up with that interpretation from the conversation between the Blue Hands Men and the police officer. The police officer just seemed to be asking routine questions and that was a problem for the Blue Hands Men and so they pulled their weapon out and killed everyone in the station. They even killed people who hadn't talked to River and Simon. Very ruthless men. Their actions make me wonder what happened to Simon's parents and if nothing happened to them, why not? They know more than those cops did. Daddy Tam even went into that blackout zone to get Simon out of trouble in Safe. He had to know something by then.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:35 AM

BRUISERSMOM

It's an interesting theory but my question is how would River have subverted them? By subverting someone, you undermine their authority in a way that limits their ability to operate at full power. So far, Simon and River have done nothing to bring down Blue Sun's operations at the Academy. They're just trying to keep one step ahead of the Alliance and bounty hunters, so that River doesn't have to go back to the Academy. If they turned around and became proactive in trying to destroy the Academy, they would be engaging in acts of subversion. For example, if Simon or the people who helped him smuggle out River, alerted the press to the situation at the Academy and the press started to publish stories on the Academy with smuggled out documents or interviews with students or if Simon, instead of running with River, had brought a case on River's behalf in court. But just running isn't subversion.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2004 4:23 PM

BROWNCOATFAN1

i think that since mal is the captin the the ship, so that does make him a sort of "father" to the crew.

browncoatfan1

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Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:50 PM

SHINYSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Bleyddyn:
Quote:
Originally posted by BruisersMom:
They killed the cops in Ariel just for taking basic information while booking Simon and River.

Naaah, they just like whackin' em.

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Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:10 PM

GAVIDA

Just finished watching "Safe" again and thought I throw something in about River that I realized for the first time.

When she stands at the dance, it looks to me that she watches the people, how they dance and "learns" the steps by watching them and jumps into it once she figured it out.
I mean, it looks like she is a fast learner, aye?

And on a sidenote I had to grin, when I realized that River dances to some celtic style music..... River dances..... celtic music.... Riverdance?

Keep flying,
Gavida

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Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:52 AM

SABACEANBABE

I just rewatched this last night and noticed that Book says at the end, "It's good to be home" in reference to being on Serenity again.

And I like the theory about River referring to Mal when she says something about Dad coming back.

This episode definitely illustrates how they've become a family on Serenity and have started to care for and take care of each other, even when they don't really want to (think Jayne

).

Nebari mental cleansing doesn't get the tough stains out.

In the immortal words of Socrates, "I drank what?"

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Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:57 AM

ZEEK

Yes but you forget River is crazy.

For all we know Blue Sun gave her the power to not only read other peoples' minds but also control them. That's what I was thinking at least. So when the blue hand group was killing off all the people who talked to River maybe they were just making sure these guys weren't about to stab them in the back.

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