REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Syria and Ukraine, Catalan and Kurdistan: what do they have in common?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 23, 2022 14:13
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Sunday, November 29, 2015 1:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I thought it would be instructive for us to do a point-to-point comparison of Syria and Ukraine, as they are in some ways very similar to each other.

In Ukraine, we have a pro-western government which overthrew a previously elected government, peaceful protests followed by a non-democratic (ie non-election) coup. Part of Ukraine has been absorbed into Russia after a local referendum. Part of Ukraine is attempting to break away/ defend itself (depending on how you look at it) with foreign help, and part of Ukraine is being supported by foreign (western) help.

In Syria, we have an elected anti-western government that was attempted to be overturned by peaceful protests (some say) followed by violent rebellion. The rebles now appear to consist of many foreigners who are receiving considerable foreign aid, The current government is also being supported with foreign (nonwestern) help.

I guess if we want to do a point-to-point comparison, the first thing to do would be to look at the election processes in which Yanukovich and Assad came to power, and determine if the results were legitimate.

However this goes, I think it would be a useful discussion, provided we can stick to facts and not just sling insults.

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 2:32 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:


I guess if we want to do a point-to-point comparison, the first thing to do would be to look at the election processes in which Yanukovich and Assad came to power, and determine if the results were legitimate.



Forget elections, the spread of Jihad and Sharia has nothing to do with elections. It is a very simple primitive and effective strategy, be at war with others who don't share your pagan god Allah....muslims have the mindset out breed them when the wars become stalemates and have a strategy to win by numbers in wars of attrition. Radical islamic muslims think when you can not kill them make more babies than them, immigrate to their lands and change them, the man they worship mohammed more or less commands hijrah to europe or jihad by immigration .... and finally Muslim jihadists use lies and deceipt Taqiyya and Kitman when they can not win on the battlefield they try to win with propaganda. They have been at war with the West, at war with Hindus, at war with Buddhists before the United States gave the world her constitution, they have been at war before America was even a breath

A primitive thug mindset with more sophisticated weapons and instant email messaging





An old ideology updated with heavy machine guns and twitter accounts

Jihadist Islamists have been at war with the West before the USA was even born, looking back on the history of the last 3 century we saw the decline of powers like France and the fall of the British Empire other players took over with WW1 with Russia and with the USA rising and became the major players in the 19th and 20th Century

Technologically these islamists are nothing, but they have a simple effective strategy like some anarchist thief breaking into peoples homes and burning them down to cause fear and chaos. One of the most interesting comments I have seen on the radicals came from the Batman and Daredevil comicbook writer Frank Miller -
Quote:
"Well, okay, then let’s finally talk about the enemy. For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we’re up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent. These people saw people’s heads off. They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I’m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I’m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built."


Radical muslims are not much of a technological threat, they have no real Airforce, no ecnomic diversity, no solid military strategic alliances, no threat via economics and science, no high tech weapons, no Navy....everything they have they have to be given by the West or given by British or Russian arms manufacturers.

Islam was at war with the West long before the British, Portugese and Spanish sailed for the Americas, at war with the West long before Ivan the Terrible united the Russian peoples, long before George Washington was born
President Ronald Reagan may have also made simple mistakes, meeting mujahideen in the White House giving them support against the USSR would later help create the Taliban and the blowback would later come crashing into the WTC. The Cold War allowed muslim Islamists grow stronger, the USA started Sleeping With the Devil helped Saudi Backing of Al Quaeda, oh yeah and let's not forget the dumbass Turks helping out ISIS and Turkish twists, tricks and turns which are betraying America's goals and values, the Russians backed Iran after the Iranains made a fool of Carter in the Embassy hijackings...the long Arabian proxy war has only made Russia and America weaker and given strength to the Islamists.






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Sunday, November 29, 2015 4:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Having delved into it at length, what I can tell you about the Yanukovich government (that was eventually deposed in a coup) is that the election was monitored by international observers. And while they noted some problems, they said it was a legitimate election.

I can't say much about the Assad election.

Well, ok, here's a first run through of the 2014 election:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_presidential_election,_2014
Presidential elections were held in Syria on 3 June 2014. It was the first multi-candidate election in decades since the Ba'ath party came to power in a coup.

As a result of the ongoing Syrian Civil War, Syria has the largest refugee population in the world, and voting for refugees in certain foreign countries began at Syrian embassies several days before voting took place in Syria itself.[1] Domestic and foreign-based Syrian opposition groups boycotted the election,[1][2] and the vote did not take place in large parts of Syria under rebel control.[3] The areas under Kurdish militia control also did not allow voting, though some people still traveled to Assad regime held areas to vote.[4]

The Gulf Cooperation Council, the European Union and the United States dismissed the election as illegitimate.[5][6][7][8] Attempts to hold an election under the circumstances of an ongoing civil war were criticized by UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon,[9] and it was widely reported that the elections lacked independent election monitoring.[10] An international delegation led by allies of Assad[11] from more than 30 countries including Bolivia, Brazil, Cuba, Ecuador, India, Iran, Iraq, Nicaragua, Russia, South Africa and Venezuela[12][13] issued a statement claiming the election was "free, fair and transparent".[14]

Some rebel groups vowed to disrupt the elections in any way possible, including bombing and shelling polling stations and government-controlled areas.[15][16][17][18] Another statement, issued by the Ajnad al-Sham Islamic Union, the Sham Corps, the Army of Mujahedeen, and the Islamic Front, said they would not "target voters but warned people to stay at home in case the Syrian government did". There were 50 reported deaths from the shelling by the rebels.[19]



There's also this from a link to SCGnewws.com:
Assad Wins Syrian Elections by a Landslide - International Observers Claim No Violations - Washington Balks
http://adam.curry.com/art/1402028893_CzNRNkKs.html

I have no idea who SCGnewws is, having gone up to their website and over to other articles they seem to be a news compiler. Who who is Adam Curry, who seems to have been reproduced there? "Adam Clark Curry (born September 3, 1964) is a podcaster, an announcer, internet entrepreneur and media personality, known for his stint as VJ on MTV and being one of the first celebrities personally to create and administer Web sites.[2] Now known mostly for co-hosting the No Agenda show, in the 2000s, he first became involved in podcasting, and has been called the 'Podfather' because of his efforts.[3]" For whatever that's worth.


SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 4:41 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Syria was total fakery, a theatre of smoke screens to help the barbaric islamo jihadists invade

You think it impossible the USA in some way is not in bed with Jihadists? Was Clinton not in bed with jihadists as they helped the Kosovo Albanians against the Serbs Yugoslav dictator? Was Reagan not in bed with Jihadists when he dedicated that Shuttle speech to the muslim bombers of Afghanistan?
You think the USA is not in some way paying al-Qaeda not to attack overseas US military bases, and instead of taking the money and going away quietly the radical muslims take the protection money to buy more guns and more bombs

now dumbass political elites like McCain and Kerry try to save face, Obama has almost has pulled away from international politics....he wants more refugees in....when he can't do that he goes play golf




Quote:
The Institute of War, whose Elizabeth O'Bagy made the news, called the Farouq Brigades "moderately Islamist". I guess that's what is meant by a moderate faction.

One militia leader affiliated with the FSA—his brigade has since been kicked out—was filmed eating a dead soldier's heart. "This stuff happens rarely, but it's unfortunate," Layman says. "With the guy who was eating a heart, he was part of a moderate faction…We work with Idriss and let him know that he needs to prevent these things."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/204261/syria-guy-who-was-eating-hear
t-he-was-part-daniel-greenfield

Quote:
A expert on Syria whose work was quoted by senior politicians as they debated military action has finally admitted she that she lied over her degree and said sorry.

A week after she was sacked from her job as an analyst with the Institute of War, Elizabeth O'Bagy has said that not only did she not earn a doctorate from Georgetown University, but she never even attended the PhD program there.

And the researcher, whose op-ed in the Wall Street Journal was cited by Secretary of State John Kerry and Senator John McCain in discussions over whether to launch a missile strike on Syria, has apologised for her 'many mistakes' and 'extremely poor judgement'.

O'Bagy, who was hired by the Institute of War a year ago as a research analyst, wrote an opinion piece in the WSJ on 30 August entitled On The Front Lines Of Syria's Civil War

Kerry and McCain agreed that Syria was a secular state and hailed her op-ed as evidence that the rebels were not the jihadists that some were suggesting. McCain even said her article was 'important'.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2423500/Syria-expert-Elizabeth
-OBagy-work-hailed-John-Kerry-John-McCain-lied-qualifications.html

i wonder if this is true?





...the middle east is now a messy meat grinder which is allowing the spread of radical islam, the region now produces mostly radical muslim imbeciles and wacko muslim idiot degenerates...why would you want to take these refujihadists and fake-ugees into America?


the Syrian opposition never existed, it was fakery


this girl called it 3 years back


and some more





is there reality to these vids or is it conspiracy? Turkey being involved in people trafficking into Europe, shipping arms, doing oil sales with the islamo jihadists? Are these vids alarmist or is there turth to the videos?

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Monday, November 30, 2015 11:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


JAYNEZTOWN, you're right: The USA has been tacitly or actively supporting jihadism for decades. It can be traced back as far as Jimmy Carter, who supplied various Afghani-based terror groups - including the Saudi Osama bin Laden- with shoulder-fired Stinger missiles to drive out the Russians.

I used to think that the USA support for terrorists was sporadic and opportunistic ... Afghanistan, Chechnya, Libya .... but over the last couple of years, as I've educated myself, I see now that our support has been there all along ... that we have "given up" large swaths of the Middle East (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and the planned addition of Syria) to Saudi-Wahhabi terrorism, that these were not repeated military/ foreign policy "failures" or "mistakes" on our part, but part of our payment to Saudi Arabia for maintaining our petrodollar-Treasury deal.

In fact, one possible USA motivation for destroying Iraq and Libya ... which had nothing to do with "WMD" or "massacres" .... was that BOTH nations were about to embark on non-dollar-denominated oil sales. Iraq was about to ink deals with France and Russia just before the invasion, sales denominated in the Euro and gold, and Libya was about to embark on a gold-backed African currency. If you're a ME nation whose wealth totally resides in oil, dollars, and US treasuries, and .... hmmm.... that's it ... to contemplate a serious decline in dollars/Treasuries must be butt-puckering moments. But I digress...

The real underlying drivers of our support for Wahhabi terrorists has to do with supporting our dollar, our banks, our oil supplies, and "capitalism", and the largest perceived enemy at the time was Russia, so our anti-Russian strategy was conflated with our pro-Saudi-Wahhabi strategy.

You still see this TODAY, when (some) posters here just can't get over their anti-Sovietism long enough to stop dancing around gleefully whenever the international brigade of Wahhabi-terrorists manage to damage Russia. These idiots still think that Russia is the biggest enemy, and that the terrorists are our friends.

To those others who are reading this besides JAYNEZTOWN, if anyone ... I know this just sounds like crazy-making blah-blah-blah. But there is one thing that the necroposting has demonstrated, is that while I do my best to RECOGNIZE what is happening, I tend to think only within the boundaries of what has already happened. I rarely make large sweeping projections, and most of my posts tend to be overtaken by reality. For example, while I was posting a year or so ago that Turkey served as a trans-shipping point for the hundreds of tons of weapons from Saudi Arabia/Qatar to jihadists in Libya, and again from Libya (Benghazi, specifically, under Clinton) to jihadists in Syria, I never projected that Turkey would be actively laundering ISIL oil or that Turkey would attack Russia. So in many ways my posts.... as unconventional as they sound ... are actually fairly conservative and behind-the-times. I tend not to reach conclusions until they're damn-near inescapable. So when I opine that the USA government has been tacitly or actively supporting the Saudi-Wahhabi project for decades, I think that's just a belated recognition of fact.

Anyway, I don't think that for TPTB (at least, not the USA deep state) that this is a "religious" war. I'm not sure that even the Saudi deep state sees this as a "religious" war; therefore, DON'T TURN IT INTO ONE. There are a billion Muslim faithful who are more than willing to live-and-let-live. Don't make THEM the enemy, because you won't win.

The Saudis HAVE however fanned the flames of jihadism hot enough that they now have hundreds of thousands of religiously-indoctrinated tools who are willing to enforce their masters' interests by proxy.

How do you fight a violent "ism"? Well, first you defang it by removing its weapons and its violent actors and removing its source of funding. Then you fight it the same way it (and ALL) "isms" are created- by propagandizing an "ism" of your own.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, November 30, 2015 1:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I guess that few people are ready to do a point-to-point comparison. I suppose some posters here are afraid I might pounce. But the reality is, I don't know how this discussion might turn out, because it's a comparison I haven't done myself yet, and people might turn up information or viewpoints that affect how I look at things.

Another problem is the difficulty of even "where to start"? I can think of several ways to think about this:

Procedurally. Start at the beginning: Who was in power before the (attempted or completed) coup? Were they democratically elected? Were the elections found to be "free and fair"? Were there institutional mechanisms in place for leadership/policy change? (i.e Was there an electoral process in place?) Or was violent coup the only way forward?

Ideologically. Do you support the rebels in Syria? Why or why not? Do you support the rebels in the Donbas? Why or why not? How are the rebellions the same or different? Do they share the same mechanisms (ie terrorism) and goals? Does this boil down to "he started it", or is there some other way to parse the use of violence?

International involvement. What are the international norms for statehood and national sovereignty? Are nations (under UN Charter) required to be democracies? When should international actors become involved, if ever? If a nation is deemed repugnant, what other mechanisms are available for promoting change? Does the involvement of some international actors automatically require the involvement of another?

Resolution. Even if the origins and processes of a rebellion are murky and ultimately not subject to resolution, what is the best way forward?

There are a lot of interlocking/overlapping questions. It would certainly help MY thought processes if people would work their way thru these questions with me.




--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, November 30, 2015 9:08 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
I guess that few people are ready to do a point-to-point comparison.

Try rewriting the OP without the Kremlin talking points. After all, you said you wanted a fact based discussion.

Quote:
I guess if we want to do a point-to-point comparison, the first thing to do would be to look at the election processes in which Yanukovich and Assad came to power.

Yes, there are quite a few similarities between Yanukovich and Assad:

- Neither has ever held a fair election, and both have held elections criticised by the outside world
- Both used violence to suppress peaceful popular protests, which led to the protests becoming violent
- Both are/were heavily supported by Russia

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, November 30, 2015 9:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


and both have held elections criticised by the outside world

In fact the US doesn't allow international observers to view its elections at all. But when studied, those elections have been deemed irregular by statisticians, particularly the first dumbya one. Are you going to apply the same objections to US elections that have evidently been rigged?
No, of course you won't. Because you don't look at a broad scope of facts to draw a conclusion. You draw your conclusion, then narrowly select your 'facts'.
You know you do. ;)


Both used violence to suppress peaceful popular protests, which led to the protests becoming violent

And that's different from the US - how?

Both are/were heavily supported by Russia.

And now we get to your irrational biases as your real motivation.
It's a problem (whatever 'it' is), because, yanno ... Russia.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, November 30, 2015 9:51 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

used violence to suppress peaceful popular protests



Syria was totally FAKE, actors who failed auditions for Turkish Hollywood style movies or failed in castings for Egyptian tv shows ended up in Syria making a false movie about supressed protestors...the foreign pally-wood actors were flown in to create controversy, create false oppression....then all of a sudden with fake news reports were suddenly seen as credible, they and by 'they' i mean the elites who backed these islamists get the green light to flood Syria with foreign jihadists, foreign terror groups would flood in days later, foreign al-qaeda, foreign muslim islamist mercs, foreign muslim brotherhood thugs soon fly in and start burning, foreigners killing, looting and start an internal war













I'm no fan of Assad, he's an A-hole and a dictator
however the way the media spun this one was ridiculous, and flying planes of islamists in and sending busses of jihadists into Syria .....the elites jumped the shark here, beyond stupid

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Tuesday, December 1, 2015 10:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I guess that few people are ready to do a point-to-point comparison.-SIGNY

Try rewriting the OP without the Kremlin talking points. After all, you said you wanted a fact based discussion.- KPO
Insults right away.

Quote:
I guess if we want to do a point-to-point comparison, the first thing to do would be to look at the election processes in which Yanukovich and Assad came to power.-SIGNY

Yes, there are quite a few similarities between Yanukovich and Assad:

- Neither has ever held a fair election, and both have held elections criticised by the outside world
Were ANY of those elections certified as "free and fair" by international monitors?

Quote:
Both used violence to suppress peaceful popular protests, which led to the protests becoming violent
Evidence, please.

Quote:
Both are/were heavily supported by Russia
So? There are a lot of nations supported by the USA- does that make them illegitimate?

Quote:
It's not personal. It's just war.
Any you will do ANYthing to "win", irrespective of facts. Apparently, you can't even hold a decent discussion.

When you can bring something other than insults, unsupported opinion, and 100% prejudice to the thread, please come back.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, December 1, 2015 12:14 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Quote:
I guess that few people are ready to do a point-to-point comparison.-SIGNY

Try rewriting the OP without the Kremlin talking points. After all, you said you wanted a fact based discussion.- KPO

Insults right away. - SIGNY

No. Just because it hurt your feelings doesn't make it an insult. Newsflash: if you're wrong and it gets pointed out, it's going to hurt your feelings. The trick is to stop parroting Kremlin media, and thus being wrong so often.

Quote:
Apparently, you can't even hold a decent discussion.

Not with you, it seems.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, December 1, 2015 5:59 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Are you going to apply the same objections to US elections that have evidently been rigged?

So rather than try to deny that Yanukovich and Assad held fraudulent elections, all you can do is try this lame false equivalence? At-a-girl.

Quote:
In fact the US doesn't allow international observers to view its elections at all.

Err, wrong.

US Election monitoring by the OSCE going back to 2002 - http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/usa

Quote:
But when studied, those elections have been deemed irregular by statisticians, particularly the first dumbya one.

US elections have been consistently praised by election monitors, while some recommendations for tightening in some areas have been made. Disputed elections in the US are rare, and almost always come about when the votes are very close, as in Florida 2000.

Compare that with Yanukovich's track record of holding elections - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20120888

The OSCE said the elections "were marked by the abuse of state resources, lack of transparency of campaign and party financing and the lack of balanced media coverage", and were a backwards step for democracy after the 2010 election held by the previous pro-Western government that was recognised as free and fair.

What we're doing is comparing an imperfect democratic system (the USA) where in rare instances the result of an election can be called into question, with undemocratic leaders who use instruments of government to make the whole election unfair and fraudulent. One is imperfect democracy; the other is show democracy, carried out by undemocratic leaders. I wouldn't expect Putin fangirls and regular consumers of Russian propaganda to recognise the distinction, nonetheless it exists, and is obvious to the rest of us.

Quote:
Both used violence to suppress peaceful popular protests, which led to the protests becoming violent

And that's different from the US - how?

More feeble Whatabout-ism? Is this all you have kiki? How are the situations different? In scale and severity, of course. The Syrian regime used indiscriminate sniper fire, abductions, rape and torture against the peaceful uprising en masse, and from the beginning. And you're saying the US government is as bad because, what, Ferguson? Go on, amuse us all and insist that the two are morally equivalent. You know you're itching to.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2015 12:22 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


report from 2012

The 6 November general elections took place in a competitive environment and were administered in a professional manner. However, decisions on technical aspects of the electoral process were often unduly politicized.
The campaigns were vibrant and were covered extensively in the media, allowing
voters to make informed choices. While generally characterized by broad public confidence, further steps should be taken to improve the electoral process, in areas such as voting rights, the accuracy of voter lists, campaign finance transparency, recount procedures, and access of international election observers.

press release from 2012
Threat of criminal prosecution of observers at odds with established co-operation on United States elections, ODIHR Director says


from 2010

Attempts to introduce new voter identification and proof of citizenship requirements are heavily politicized, split on the issue of enfranch
isement versus integrity of the vote. A broad variety of procedures exist within and between states which has, at times, resulted in an unequal treatment of voters.
These elections were the first held after the US Supreme Court decision, Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, which ruled that corporations and unions can spend unlimited amounts to advocate for the election or defeat of candidates as a right to free speech. It is disputable to what extent this decision contributed to the record 4 billion USD spent on campaigning during these elections. However, the transparency of campaign financing was noticeably undermined by the increased contribution of certain types of organizations that are not required by law to disclose their donors.


I've got someone needing attention. The OSCE didn't give the first two elections I looked at a ringing endorsement.

Still want to claim the US meets international standards?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2015 8:53 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
The OSCE didn't give the first two elections I looked at a ringing endorsement.

I never said they did. Let's have a look at what I said:

"US elections have been consistently praised by election monitors, while some recommendations for tightening in some areas have been made."

Which is completely true. You have copied and pasted text out of the OSCE reports, all to back up what I've already said. So thanks for that. Let me also point out that the issues with US elections that you have highlighted such as voter registration and voter ID and campaign financing are not on the OSCE's list of 'priority' recommendations but on their list of 'other' recommendations (pp. 24-26). So flaws? Yes. Should be addressed? Yep. Make US democracy as bad as the regimes of tyrannical despots who run show elections, and actively rig them? No. Sorry kiki.

Any other false equivalences you would like to make kiki? Have you shied away from the 'Ferguson was as bad as Syria' line? Come on, you know you want to make it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2015 10:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I guess that few people are ready to do a point-to-point comparison.-SIGNY

Try rewriting the OP without the Kremlin talking points. After all, you said you wanted a fact based discussion.- KPO

Insults right away. - SIGNY

No. Just because it hurt your feelings doesn't make it an insult. Newsflash: if you're wrong and it gets pointed out, it's going to hurt your feelings. The trick is to stop parroting Kremlin media, and thus being wrong so often.-KPO
I guess, first of all... WHAT "Kremlin talking points"? Please point out - quote me- where I used "Kremlin talking points" in my posts. You should back up your dismissal of my facts with YOUR facts. Otherwise, it's just an insult.

Quote:
Apparently, you can't even hold a decent discussion.- SIGNY

Not with you, it seems.-KPO
Hey, I wasn't the one starting out with insults right away. I'm sorry if you feel pissed because I called you an ISIL apologist, but that's in another thread. Try to keep this one clean. If at all possible.

----

So BTW you failed to respond to any of my other requests for further information:

Quote:
Yes, there are quite a few similarities between Yanukovich and Assad:
- Neither has ever held a fair election, and both have held elections criticised by the outside world-

Were ANY of those elections certified as "free and fair" by international monitors?- SIGNY

Pretend that I don't know much about these elections, because I don't. Please give me a history, with links and specifics, of the various elections in Ukraine and Syria, whether they were observed by any international observers and who those observers were, whether they were certified as "free and fair" and who they were certified by. One thing I would be particularly interested in is if the USA was supportive of SOME elections in Ukraine (and Syria) but not supportive of OTHER elections in Ukraine (and Syria) held under much the same conditions. In other words, is the USA support of national elections more dependent on the process, or on the specific candidates? Details. I can't seem to understand anything unless I have the specifics.

Quote:
-Both used violence to suppress peaceful popular protests, which led to the protests becoming violent- KPO

Evidence, please.-SIGNY
Same request. There was plenty of Ukrainian video evidence of (civilian, Nazi) provocateurs embedded in a largely peaceful protest, burning policemen with Molotov cocktails. The sniper fire killings were widely blamed on the Berkut (police), but the bullet trajectories traced back to a Nazi-occupied hotel. It's a widely-used extremist tactic to incite violence and escalate within a peaceful crowd, and snipers being used to create a false flag isn't unheard of ("The Revolution Will not be Televised" details how that was done in Venezuela.) So if this comes down to "They started it" you better show how the government started the violence and kept it going, in detail.

Then, do the same for Syria. I know less about Syria than Ukraine. Please bring detailed information to the board.

Quote:
Both are/were heavily supported by Russia- KPO

So? There are a lot of nations supported by the USA- does that make them illegitimate?- SIGNY


This is a non-point, as far as I can tell, and one that you should probably back away from. But if you want to claim that this makes some kind of difference, have at it.

I would add another request: When the Yanukovich government offered a political solution: early elections, etc ... why wasn't that good enough?

Quote:
When you can bring something other than insults, unsupported opinion, and 100% prejudice to the thread, please come back.-SIGNY


I expect this to be a vigorous discussion. I know who you support and where your biases lie, and therefore if anyone is motivated and able to bring relevant information to the table, it is you (and G and THUGR). But I also expect this to be a RIGOROUS discussion, because we've seen enough fluff and chaff and insults and allegations and opinions and accusations on this website, haven't we?

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Wednesday, December 2, 2015 6:01 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
I guess, first of all... WHAT "Kremlin talking points"?

Ok. Inaccuracies/Kremlin propaganda in your first post:

Quote:
In Ukraine, we have a pro-western government which overthrew a previously elected government...


Incorrect. The current Ukrainian government was elected in two elections (presidential and parliamentary) that were recognised as free and fair.

Quote:
peaceful protests followed by a non-democratic (ie non-election) coup.


Bzz! A 'non-democratic' coup? As opposed to a democratic one...? In any case any use of the word 'coup' in reference to the Maidan revolution is a brainless parroting of Russian propaganda talking points.

Quote:
Part of Ukraine has been absorbed into Russia after a local referendum.


You forgot the bit about the illegal Russian military operation to take over the peninsula.

Quote:
In Syria, we have an elected anti-western government

Err, more accurately we have a dictatorial dynastic regime that has been in charge for over 40 years.

Quote:
So BTW you failed to respond to any of my other requests for further information:

You said it wasn't worthwhile having a discussion, and I agreed with you. That's kind of the point I've been making about this thread from the start: you framed the whole discussion according to the 'facts' you've imbibed from Russian propaganda, and then asked for a 'reasonable discussion'.

Here's the thing Sig. Even if you deny, as you surely do, that your facts are wrong, how can you expect to have a reasoned discussion based on facts with someone who holds to completely different facts from you? This is why my interactions with you are limited to swooping in on discussions, pointing out where you are clearly and demonstrably wrong, and then swooping off again.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2015 9:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I guess, first of all... WHAT "Kremlin talking points"?- KPO

Ok. Inaccuracies/Kremlin propaganda in your first post:

Quote:
In Ukraine, we have a pro-western government which overthrew a previously elected government...


Incorrect. The current Ukrainian government was elected in two elections (presidential and parliamentary) that were recognised as free and fair.


Okay, yeah, I kind of ellipsed that. That was the SHORT version of ... the current (elected) government grew out of an interim government which overthrew the previously elected government. The current government was elected by only a portion of the Ukrainian population which was not under Kiev's control.

OK?

Quote:
peaceful protests followed by a non-democratic (ie non-election) coup.- SIGNY

Bzz! A 'non-democratic' coup? As opposed to a democratic one...? In any case any use of the word 'coup' in reference to the Maidan revolution is a brainless parroting of Russian propaganda talking points.
In what way was the replacement of the Yanukovich government during a period of violent strife NOT a coup. Calling me "brainless" does not make me so, unless you can demonstrate that what occurred was not a coup. After all, what is the difference between a "revolution" (your term) and a coup, except whether or not you approve of the results?

Quote:
Part of Ukraine has been absorbed into Russia after a local referendum.

You forgot the bit about the illegal Russian military operation to take over the peninsula.

Yeah, with a referendum which garnered a 90%+ positive vote. Whether or not the vote represented the will of the people should be open for discussion. Unless you think the will of the people isn't an important factor?

Quote:
In Syria, we have an elected anti-western government -SIGNY

Err, more accurately we have a dictatorial dynastic regime that has been in charge for over 40 years.- KPO
Well, I don't know much about Syrian elections, but I know they had them. So I guess you don't get to call it a "dictatorial regime" until you demonstrate that it doesn't/ didn't reflect the will of the people. Or maybe the will of the people shouldn't be an important consideration? Especially if the government is a secular option compared to theocratic terrorism? Anyway, you'll have to tell me what YOU think a "dictatorial regime" consists of, and how you know that a government is one.

Quote:
So BTW you failed to respond to any of my other requests for further information: - SIGNY

You said it wasn't worthwhile having a discussion, and I agreed with you. That's kind of the point I've been making about this thread from the start: you framed the whole discussion according to the 'facts' you've imbibed from Russian propaganda, and then asked for a 'reasonable discussion'.
And I'm still asking for a reasonable discussion, which I hope will be rigorous.

Quote:
Here's the thing Sig. Even if you deny, as you surely do, that your facts are wrong, how can you expect to have a reasoned discussion based on facts with someone who holds to completely different facts from you? This is why my interactions with you are limited to swooping in on discussions, pointing out where you are clearly and demonstrably wrong, and then swooping off again.


The universe isn't confused, only people are.

Truth exists, only lies have to be invented.

There is only one set of facts.


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Thursday, December 3, 2015 7:48 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Whether or not the vote represented the will of the people should be open for discussion. Unless you think the will of the people isn't an important factor?

You're fine for countries to take land off other countries by force and then hold referenda? Or only Russia?

Quote:
In what way was the replacement of the Yanukovich government during a period of violent strife NOT a coup.

In what way IS it a coup? As far as I can tell your equation is: CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT + SOME VIOLENCE = COUP. You don't think revolutions can be violent? Was the French Revolution of 1789 a 'coup'? You're so eager to join the dots and parrot the emotionally charged rhetoric you get from Russian propaganda you throw logic out of the window.

Quote:
Well, I don't know much about Syrian elections, but I know they had them. So I guess you don't get to call it a "dictatorial regime"

You don't think dictatorial regimes hold elections? Ah Sig. So cynical when it suits you, and likewise so naive when it suits you. Syria, effectively a one party state that has had power for over 40 years, has widespread documented human rights abuses, tightly state-controlled media, comes bottom of all democracy rankings, etc. etc. You may not know much about the Syrian 'elections', but you should know enough about the country to approach them from a position of scepticism.

Quote:
And I'm still asking for a reasonable discussion,

And I'm still doubting I can have one with you, sorry.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, December 4, 2015 12:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
And I'm still asking for a reasonable discussion- SIGNY
And I'm still doubting I can have one with you, sorry.-KPO


Let me give you a few examples of what I was hoping for, which would have been educational for me, and probably for you and for everyone else as well.

Quote:
Whether or not the [Crimean] vote [to join Russia] represented the will of the people should be open for discussion. Unless you think the will of the people isn't an important factor?- SIGNY

You're fine for countries to take land off other countries by force and then hold referenda? Or only Russia?- KPO


Well, I said it should be OPEN FOR DISCUSSION, I didn't say I was "fine" with it. Thank you for putting words in my mouth.

But, to demonstrate the various points that SHOULD be discussed:

There are a lot of other examples of secessions or attempted secessions within Europe and around the world... East Timorese, Venetians, Tamils, Scots, Catalans, Kurds, etc. The list of secessionist movements is truly astounding. Crimea and the attempted secession of the Donbass isn't unique at all.

Isn't the secession of Crimea (which you don't recognize) similar to the secession of Kosovo? (which you DO recognize)? Wasn't the secession of Kosovo initiated by foreign violence (NATO bombing and destruction of Yugoslavia), protested by the relevant authority (Serbs), protected by foreign troops (NATO and UN) and based on a foreign sponsor's lie (ethnic cleansing by Serbians, as thumped by the USA)?

Quote:
The 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence was adopted on 17 February 2008 by representatives of the Kosovo people. The participants unanimously declared Kosovo to be independent from Serbia, while all 11 representatives of the Serb minority boycotted the proceedings. It was the second declaration of independence by Kosovo's Albanian-majority political institutions; the first was proclaimed on 7 September 1990.

The legality of the declaration has been disputed. Serbia sought international validation and support for its stance that the declaration was illegal, and in October 2008 requested an advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice. The Court determined that the declaration did not violate international law., except that main sponsor is different?


The USA, in supporting Kosovo's bid for secssion, cited the "special circumstances" of "ethnic cleansing" by Serbs .... allegations which proved to be as FALSE as the WMD allegations. Therefore the sui generis category of Kosovo's independence is based on vapor.

So what differences are there between Crimean and Kosovar secession, except that the sponsor of one secession was accepted by the west and the sponsor of another is NOT accepted by the west?

In terms of internal (Crimean) support for secession, and are you saying, KPO that Russia could REALLY have taken Crimea "by force" with very little evidence of violence (except around one Ukrainian military base, as I recall) if it was truly against the will of the people? That Russian forces COULD have forcefully maneuvered a vote that was 90%+ in favor of joining Russia, if it didn't have the support of MOST of the people? Here are some examples of Crimeans interacting with these "polite green men" or "little green men"

http://anthropoliteia.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/posing-with-children
.jpeg?w=696







By contrast, this is what happened in Odessa, thanks to the far-right provocateurs






Also, as I recall, Crimea invited OSCE observers, but the OSCE refused. Pointing to the lack of OSCE observers as evidence of illegality is a circular argument, because OSCE had already decided the referendum was illegal and therefore refused to participate. According to western press, there were non-OSCE observers in Crimea ... I recall reading at the time that either Marine LePen or a party representative was there, so I can say for sure there was at least one!



Kosovo seceded from Serbia. Crimea seceded from Ukraine. Catalans want to secede from Spain, Venetians from Italy, Scots from the UK. In some cases the secession is disputed by the mother country, in other cases, it is not.

IN GENERAL, on the idea that you really can't force people to be together by violence - except under very stringent circumstances, as in N Korea- I'm for secession. I don't think that secession should AUTOMATICALLY be regarded as "illegal". Maybe there should be a regular process. For example, there should be monetary adjustments ... the seceding state should (over time) pay the mother nation for the cost of the secession. The rights of the minorities within the seceding state need to be protected. But if there are orderly informed votes taken over a long period of time... say, once a year for 10 years... and they consistently achieve super-majority status, the secession should become legal. With the prospect of orderly secession always in mind, mother nations might not treat their sub-regions so disparately. With sufficiently high barriers in place, maybe secession wouldn't be trivially invoked. With a process in place, maybe violence can be averted.

On the other hand, I can think of examples of secession that would really test that concept: Let's say, for example, that after 10 years of successful occupation, ISIL decides it wants to create its own strict fundamentalist Wahhabi-state out of parts of Syria, Iraq, and Kurdistan, and can demonstrate that the population is "for" secession. What then?

Also, just as kind of another kinker to my concept of orderly secession, I heard from many people who were- and still think of themselves- as Yugoslavians. They really appreciated being in ethnically-mixed neighborhoods, schools, sports-teams, and workplaces, all under the banner of "Yugoslavia". It gave them a warm feeling of being special and diverse, and they mourn to this day the destruction of the nation that was. So maybe even my idea of "orderly secession" isn't all it's cracked up to be? Maybe there will be serious unintended consequences?

So there is more to talk about than just being "pro/anti-Russian". There is more to the world than Russia v The West, there are interesting and important questions to think about.

I have more to say of similar nature on the topics of revolution versus coup, the will of the people, freedom fighter versus terrorist, ends versus means, but I think you get the point.

Why narrow such a fascinating topic into one "side" versus another "side"? Can't we explore some of these ideas... and others ... together?



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Saturday, December 5, 2015 12:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Apparently not.

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Tuesday, December 8, 2015 10:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


For me, it mostly seems to come down to "ends versus means".

Like most people here, I share the ideal society" democratic, with a free exchange of views and information, where everyone gets their fair share and has a say in their collective and individual futures.

I know that bombing nations will NOT get you there (neither will supporting vast differences in wealth). OTOH, I cringe at the thought of nations where some people are beaten down and taken advantage of.

Also, while I believe in in-place problem-solving, for SOME nations where some people are deprived of their health, speech, and lives, fleeing is the only option. So there are conundrums that I've yet to figure out.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, December 8, 2015 2:30 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
are you saying, KPO that Russia could REALLY have taken Crimea "by force"... if it was truly against the will of the people?

First of all there is no question that it was by force, if I stick a gun to your head and take your wallet, then that is theft by force. Same with Crimea.

Secondly, if a majority of the people living there were happy with it does that make it OK? A big country using military aggression against a smaller peaceful, sovereign country to take new territory for itself?

Look, the answer is obvious. It is NOT ok. In the 21st century countries should not solve territorial disputes with other peaceful countries by force . You talk like you are here for a reasonable discussion, but as ever, you can't and won't criticise Russia for even the most flagrant of international crimes.

Quote:
Here are some examples of Crimeans interacting with these "polite green men" or "little green men"

Pointless. *shakes head* Should I post photos of patriotic Ukrainians in Slovyansk and Kramatorsk (cities liberated from the separatists) to prove that Donbas is pro-Ukrainian?

Quote:
So there is more to talk about than just being "pro/anti-Russian". There is more to the world than Russia v The West

The whole point of this thread is to be pro-Russia and/or anti- the West. That's your agenda, and the point of every thread you post (with rare exceptions about music, cookery, or rain in your area). Which is fine, but let's call it what it is.

As for having reasonable, nuanced, philosophical discussions about revolutions, rights of secession/self-determination, 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' - I have never found you receptive to them before. You argue in line with Russian state-controlled media every time, and you are not interested in being anything other than black and white. The Maidan revolution was a "coup" and the government in Kiev are "Nazis", the separatists are "freedom fighters", the anti-Assad rebels are all "terrorists", Turkey, the Gulf States, the USA, KPO, G and anyone who criticises Russia are all "pro-ISIS"... etc. etc.

By all means have your agenda, and push it, but you're not going to fool anyone with this "let's come together and explore ideas in a reasonable way" act.


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, December 10, 2015 5:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
are you saying, KPO that Russia could REALLY have taken Crimea "by force"... if it was truly against the will of the people?- SIGNY

First of all there is no question that it was by force, if I stick a gun to your head and take your wallet, then that is theft by force. Same with Crimea.- KPO
I'm trying to figure out the role of "the will of the people" versus (or in addition to) the role of "patron" nations in the event of a breakaway state, and you keep trying to shoehorn the discussion back into the "Russia is a wallet-robber".

Just to expand the discussion outward: What level of violence do you think is NECESSARY to impose an unwelcome political result on a vast majority of people?

Quote:
Secondly, if a majority of the people living there were happy with it does that make it OK? A big country using military aggression against a smaller peaceful, sovereign country to take new territory for itself?


I dunno - does it? In one sense, you could say that the will of the people is actually being respected. They ARE happy with the outcome, are they not? What if you have a big nation... say, Britain or the USA ... intervening in Turkey, and creating a Kurdistan where the Kurds are very happy with the outcome? Or something like NATO intervening in Serbia to create Kososvo, where the Kosovars are very happy?

Good thing?
Bad precedent?
I dunno - You tell me!

Quote:
Look, the answer is obvious. It is NOT ok. In the 21st century countries should not solve territorial disputes with other peaceful countries by force.
Do you apply that same precept to the USA, or to NATO?

Also, what about separatist movements? Is a nation allowed to solve separatism by force?

Quote:
You talk like you are here for a reasonable discussion, but as ever, you can't and won't criticise Russia for even the most flagrant of international crimes.


That's not the point of this thread, altho YOU seem to want to wrench it in that direction. I'll get to some of the conundrums in a bit.

Quote:
Here are some examples of Crimeans interacting with these "polite green men" or "little green men"- SIGNY

Pointless. *shakes head* Should I post photos of patriotic Ukrainians in Slovyansk and Kramatorsk (cities liberated from the separatists) to prove that Donbas is pro-Ukrainian?- KPO
You've already posed pictures and vids of Maidan and of pro-Kiev parades, which we already discussed, to make that very point. No need to post again.

My reasons to post the pictures is not to claim that it's representative of EVERYONE in Crimea, simply to provide another part of the picture: at least SOME people welcomed the little green men.

Quote:
So there is more to talk about than just being "pro/anti-Russian". There is more to the world than Russia v The West- SIGNY
The whole point of this thread is to be pro-Russia and/or anti- the West. That's your agenda, and the point of every thread you post (with rare exceptions about music, cookery, or rain in your area). - KPO


No, that's not true. YOU seem to be the one who wants to keep talking about that topic, ad infinitum, ad naseum! You can't seem to get off it!

Quote:
Which is fine, but let's call it what it is.
Yes, let's call it "KPO's obsession with Russia".

Quote:
As for having reasonable, nuanced, philosophical discussions about revolutions, rights of secession/self-determination, 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' - I have never found you receptive to them before. You argue in line with Russian state-controlled media every time, and you are not interested in being anything other than black and white. The Maidan revolution was a "coup" and the government in Kiev are "Nazis", the separatists are "freedom fighters", the anti-Assad rebels are all "terrorists", Turkey, the Gulf States, the USA, KPO, G and anyone who criticises Russia are all "pro-ISIS"... etc. etc.
Actually, NOT TRUE. Early on, I said there was a significant minority (somewhere in the realm of 30-35%) of pro-Yanukovich voters, concentrated in the south and east, which were not aligned with the "Maidan" movement. I said the Nazis were EMBEDDED in the Maidan movement as provocateurs, not that they made up a large portion of it. HOWEVER, even tho early elections were offered as a resolution, violence seemed to be the only way forward for those provocateurs (and their backers: McCain, Nuland etc.) The interim government was a result of a coup and any wriggling and equivocation about it is refusal to acknowledge fact. "Yats", the USA pick, remains in unelected position TO THIS DAY. The early government assigned a number of security positions to the rightwing, and the formation of (primarily rightwing) militias under the control of the Interior Ministry - not the military- became policy. TO THIS DAY there is a split within western Ukraine between the early Maidan movement and the rightwing which propelled the violence forward.

I have NEVER represented Assad or the Syrian army as "freedom fighters".

However, the USA has been pro-terrorist for decades.

If there is one thing you SHOULD have noticed, by now if you had been paying any attention at all: VIOLENCE BREED EXTREMISM. In a situation of violence, the most violent and organized will be victorious and come to the fore. So, for example, in the case of Syria, once guns were picked up, the "moderate opposition" fell to the wayside and ISIL took the stage. In Ukraine, the Maidanites fell to the wayside, and the Nazis (and then the western-backed politicians) came to the fore. I doubt that the result is anything like what people has in mind when they started.

But, you know what I've said already, and yet you continue to misrepresent me.

So, here are the conundrums I was thinking about:

In general, I think there should be a procedure for secession. There are many forces (banks, economies of scale, international business) acting to consolidate people into larger and larger groups. People collected into very large groups may be more "efficient", but the structure isn't robust. I think there needs to be a mechanism which works in the opposite direction.

I suggested a mechanism for disassociation. But in the extreme, I can see where it becomes ridiculous.

One possibility, as I mentioned, is that a group proposes a society where most people are held in absolute thrall, and because their information and education is strictly limited, they're OK with it. They'd vote for it. Is that OK? Or is there some threshold of "rights" below which an entity won't be recognized?

Or, another problem is one of scale: Let's say that a state wants to secede. Ok, what about a county (riding)? A city? What if there is a commune - like Jonestown- that has its own members and doesn't want to pay taxes or follow city/county/state/national law? Is there some size limit below which an entity won't be recognized? I realize these are pretty abstract questions, but I guess I always wonder what happens on the margins.

Quote:
you're not going to fool anyone with this "let's come together and explore ideas in a reasonable way" act.[
Hey, I'm the one who keeps trying to direct the conversation elsewhere. You're the one who seems to be obsessed.


Quote:
It's not personal. It's just war.

ONLY TO YOU.
(And you keep reminding people how this is "war"!)

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Thursday, December 10, 2015 7:41 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
I'm trying to figure out the role of "the will of the people"

You're trying to rewrite history, and call Putin's annexation of Crimea 'a secession'. When Hitler annexed the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia was that a secession? Why not?

Here's a photo of some of the residents of the Sudetenland welcoming the Nazi's polite grey stormtroopers:



And a few weeks after the annexation the Nazis held elections in the Sudetenland, in which 97.32% voted for the Nazis. According to Wiki: "About a half million Sudeten Germans joined the Nazi Party which was 17.34% of the total German population in Sudetenland (the average NSDAP membership participation in Nazi Germany was merely 7.85% in 1944). This means the Sudetenland was one of the most pro-Nazi regions of the Third Reich."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#Sudetenland_as_part_of_Nazi_
Germany

All sounds a lot like Russia and Crimea, doesn't it? So why was Crimea a 'secession' and a shining example of democracy in action, and the Sudetenland wasn't?

Quote:
Quote:
kpo - Secondly, if a majority of the people living there were happy with it does that make it OK? A big country using military aggression against a smaller peaceful, sovereign country to take new territory for itself?

Signy - I dunno - does it?

No! What's wrong with you.

Quote:
Good thing?
Bad precedent?
I dunno - You tell me!

I already have.

Quote:
The interim government was a result of a coup

See, I knew you'd go back to brainlessly calling the Maidan revolution a coup. Do you remember when I asked you to say what about it constituted a coup, and you couldn't answer? Here it is again:

"In what way IS it a coup? As far as I can tell your equation is: CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT + SOME VIOLENCE = COUP. You don't think revolutions can be violent? Was the French Revolution of 1789 a 'coup'?"

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I'm trying to figure out the role of "the will of the people"- SIGNY

You're trying to rewrite history, and call Putin's annexation of Crimea 'a secession'. When Hitler annexed the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia was that a secession? Why not?

Here's a photo of some of the residents of the Sudetenland welcoming the Nazi's polite grey stormtroopers:



And a few weeks after the annexation the Nazis held elections in the Sudetenland, in which 97.32% voted for the Nazis. According to Wiki: "About a half million Sudeten Germans joined the Nazi Party which was 17.34% of the total German population in Sudetenland (the average NSDAP membership participation in Nazi Germany was merely 7.85% in 1944). This means the Sudetenland was one of the most pro-Nazi regions of the Third Reich."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#Sudetenland_as_part_of_Nazi_
Germany

All sounds a lot like Russia and Crimea, doesn't it? So why was Crimea a 'secession' and a shining example of democracy in action, and the Sudetenland wasn't?
Who says Sudetenland wasn't democratic? How does the old joke go?
Q: What the difference between Bush and Hitler?
A: Hitler was voted in.

And, he was!

People CAN vote for governments and institutions that ultimately prove to be their undoing. Just because a process is "democratic" doesn't mean it's intelligent or ethical.

Quote:
kpo - Secondly, if a majority of the people living there were happy with it does that make it OK? A big country using military aggression against a smaller peaceful, sovereign country to take new territory for itself?
Signy - I dunno - does it?
No! What's wrong with you.- KPO

So then, you're not in favor of the secession of Kosovo?

Quote:
Good thing?
Bad precedent?
I dunno - You tell me!- SIGNY
I already have.- KPO
Indeed you have. So, you're not in favor of the secession of Kosovo. Got it.

Quote:
The interim government was a result of a coup- SIGNY
See, I knew you'd go back to brainlessly calling the Maidan revolution a coup. Do you remember when I asked you to say what about it constituted a coup, and you couldn't answer? Here it is again:
"In what way IS it a coup? As far as I can tell your equation is: CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT + SOME VIOLENCE = COUP. You don't think revolutions can be violent? Was the French Revolution of 1789 a 'coup'?"

What is the difference between a revolution and a coup?

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 22, 2016 10:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As you can see, KPO was stymied by the topic of Kosovo, because he was "for" Kosovo but "against" Crimea, for no reason other than prejudice.

But the topic went pretty far afield of Syria : Ukraine to the prospect of secessionist movements in general. This might be a good time to restart the discussion.


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Saturday, October 22, 2016 10:19 AM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
are you saying, KPO that Russia could REALLY have taken Crimea "by force"... if it was truly against the will of the people?

First of all there is no question that it was by force, if I stick a gun to your head and take your wallet, then that is theft by force. Same with Crimea.


Not to worry kpo. We all see through the stupidity of her argument.

____________________________________________

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http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Saturday, October 22, 2016 10:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


THUGR: Haters gonna hate. But, thanks for the bump!


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Saturday, October 22, 2016 1:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
As you can see, KPO was stymied by the topic of Kosovo, because he was "for" Kosovo but "against" Crimea, for no reason other than prejudice.= SIGNY

SIGNYM: Liars gonna lie.
I *admire* how you are able to lie for yourself AND other people. You really should run for office. Seriously, there's enough stupid people who would listen to your noise that you could get elected to just about anything. 'Course, then you'd find out how you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about before hand. No worries! You'll just lie to yourself about that as well. = GSTRING


Hey dood, YOU were the one who brought up the comparison in the other thread. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=31#
1018393
This is how it went

Quote:
Dood, I believe the term you're looking for is not "invasion" but "proxy war". There are reasons why there is more than one term, and that's because there is more than one kind of war. = SIGNY

You mean like Syria. =GSTRING

Yes, like Syria = SIGNY


Calling me a "liar" is a really weak argument. You have to show me ... and as importantly you have to show other people ... where what I said is "false" and "misleading". On what points do the comparisons differ? Be specific.


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Saturday, October 22, 2016 6:08 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


What's this Sig, you've given up on your campaigning for Trump and started bumping old threads of arguments that you've lost?


"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Saturday, October 22, 2016 6:09 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh dear. It appears that G has no points to make.




Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Saturday, October 22, 2016 6:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Oh dear. It appears that G has no points to make.= SIGNY


Quote:
What's this Sig, you've given up on your campaigning for Trump and started bumping old threads of arguments that you've lost?= KRAPO
And KRAPO doesn't have any point to make either. Haters gonna hate, but thanks for the bump!



Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Sunday, October 23, 2016 11:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Calling me a "liar" is a really weak argument. = SIGNY
No it isn't. I've listed your lies before, so you saying I haven't is also a lie.


First of all
1) Reading is not your strong suit, is it? That's not what I said.
2) But now that you mention it: No, I don't recall you providing anyone with a "list of lies". Not even a list where we disagree.
3) And what does that have to do with this thread, anyway? This is a thread about making point-to-point comparisons between Ukraine and Syria, which I'm quite willing to do.
4) And YOU made the comparison yourself. Which ... now that you see where it logically went ... you want to reverse.

Quote:
You have to show me ... and as importantly you have to show other people ... where what I said is "false" and "misleading". On what points do the comparisons differ? Be specific. = SIGNY
I really don't have to show anyone anything. There are maybe 20 people here and I'm guessing that like this election, they've already made their mind up about you and me and anyone else posting.= G
Well then, you've just demonstrated that you're a weenie.

Quote:
Curious - Why are you so happy for a bump for a thread where you look so bad? Kremlin still counting your posts? Is that what matters to you the most, Bump over Truth?
I don't think I "look bad" in this thread... I was actually trying to explore the differences and similarities between Syria and Ukraine ... and, as it turns out, between Kosovo and Crimea ... in an open-minded way.

All I've come to discover is that, while I'm open to a regular non-violent process for secession, there are limits on that particular logic .... as there is to ANY logic, taken to extremes. Size is one impracticality, because a very small secessionist area wouldn't be self-sustaining- eg. Can a city secede? Can a person?

Also, ideology. There are some secessionist movements I would not support, specifically those creating vast inequalities among people, such as those which would depend on a singular leader having sway over many (Jonestown), those promoting a wealthy corrupt oligarchy (too many examples to mention, including the USA), those dependent on slavery, or those promoting differences based on sex, race, age, or caste.


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Sunday, October 23, 2016 3:42 PM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Calling me a "liar" is a really weak argument.


No it isn't. I've listed your lies before, so you saying I haven't is also a lie. Funny.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You have to show me ... and as importantly you have to show other people ... where what I said is "false" and "misleading". On what points do the comparisons differ? Be specific.


I really don't have to show anyone anything. There are maybe 20 people here and I'm guessing that like this election, they've already made their mind up about you and me and anyone else posting.

Curious - Why are you so happy for a bump for a thread where you look so bad? Kremlin still counting your posts? Is that what matters to you the most, Bump over Truth?


Our troll is trolling G. And you're right. Everyone here knows it.

____________________________________________

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http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Monday, October 24, 2016 9:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
But of course, in every post in every thread. She is a duty bound foot soldier.
Her being "okay with secession" is the spin from Commie HQ re: Crimea. "They wanted to be invaded, er, I mean freed. "
If anything T. I take some comfort in the fact that our Commies are such obvious Dummies.= GSTRING


Actually, being "OK with secession" would mean that I would also be OK with the secession of Kosovo - which was part of the breakup of Communist Yugoslavia, and certainly NOT a pro-Communist or pro-Russian event, as well as the formation of an independent Kurdistan from parts of Turkey, Syria, and Iraq - again, not good for Syria!

So speaking of being an obvious dummy- I guess I have to give you your obvious arguments!

LOGIC, G, can be your friend if you learn how to use it. Which you, apparently, have not.

=====

Now, I have to say that's it's obvious from this thread that NONE of you know how to have an objective discussion, or any kind of discussion at all! Since nobody has been able to forward an even remotely intelligent discussion on the topic, I've had to carry both sides of the discussion myself. And even when I hand you your talking points, this territory seems so unfamiliar to you you can't seem to navigate it properly.




Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Monday, October 24, 2016 10:47 AM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Our troll is trolling G. And you're right. Everyone here knows it.


But of course, in every post in every thread. She is a duty bound foot soldier.

Her being "okay with secession" is the spin from Commie HQ re: Crimea. "They wanted to be invaded, er, I mean freed."

If anything T. I take some comfort in the fact that our Commies are such obvious Dummies.


OK, but for me it's humor. I take humor in the fact that our commies are such obvious dummies.

____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Monday, October 24, 2016 10:53 AM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Now, I have to say that's it's obvious from this thread that NONE of you know how to have an objective discussion, or any kind of discussion at all! Since nobody has been able to forward an even remotely intelligent discussion on the topic, I've had to carry both sides of the discussion myself. And even when I hand you your talking points, this territory seems so unfamiliar to you you can't seem to navigate it properly.



Yeah, that was soundly debunked by you many times. You are the queen of not knowing what a discussion is or being able to have one. Seriously - 2 years, you should have learned something about yourself.


SIG thinks we should receive her lies and subjective posts as factual, instead of as bullshit from notorious sources.

____________________________________________

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http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Monday, October 24, 2016 11:16 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In this entire thread, GSTRING, you have not once addressed the topic. This us your entire, hate-filled, TROLLING "contribution" to this thread:

Quote:

Those early Soviet Kikis always were a bit twitchy.

I *admire* how you are able to lie for yourself AND other people. You really should run for office. Seriously, there's enough stupid people who would listen to your noise that you could get elected to just about anything. 'Course, then you'd find out how you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about before hand. No worries! You'll just lie to yourself about that as well.

No it isn't. I've listed your lies before, so you saying I haven't is also a lie. Funny.

I really don't have to show anyone anything. There are maybe 20 people here and I'm guessing that like this election, they've already made their mind up about you and me and anyone else posting.

Curious - Why are you so happy for a bump for a thread where you look so bad? Kremlin still counting your posts? Is that what matters to you the most, Bump over Truth?
But of course, in every post in every thread. She is a duty bound foot soldier.

Her being "okay with secession" is the spin from Commie HQ re: Crimea. "They wanted to be invaded, er, I mean freed."

If anything T. I take some comfort in the fact that our Commies are such obvious Dummies.
Yeah, that was soundly debunked by you many times. You are the queen of not knowing what a discussion is or being able to have one. Seriously - 2 years, you should have learned something about yourself.

SIG thinks we should receive her lies and subjective posts as factual, instead of as bullshit from notorious sources.


And, just for completeness, here is THUGR'S complete "contribution" to the thread

Quote:
Not to worry kpo. We all see through the stupidity of her argument.
Our troll is trolling G. And you're right. Everyone here knows it.
OK, but for me it's humor. I take humor in the fact that our commies are such obvious dummies.


I's clear to me from the totality of your posts that you are both 100% trolls, and that you have had literally nothing to contribute over the totality of your posts, since you engage 100% in personal attacks.

So thanks for exposing yourselves as complete jackasses and haters. And, of course, haters are gonna hate, but - as always - thanks for the bump!


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 4:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So aside from the fact that GSTRING's and THUGR's "contributions" were - as always- purely personal attacks, and KRAPO's "contributions" were a mish-mash of personal attacks and pure stupid bias ...

... one of the items that I brought up in this thread was the process of secession.

As I posted, there are powerful forces at work which promote organizations growing larger and larger, but no equivalent forces which promote the reverse. That's because secessions/ defections are almost always violently, or at least forcefully, fought by the umbrella nation (cartel, trade group etc.) Hence, we have a one-way, non-equilibrium system.

Two secessionist movements currently being opposed by western nations are Kurdistan and Catalan.

Iraq Kurds JUST held a vote for secession, and Spain is doing everything it can .... including impounding ballots, and closing and occupying polling places ... to derail the Catalan independence vote.

Just thought to bring this up, since it's a current event.

Also, that point-to-point comparison: It never happened. Maybe one day some of the posters here will see fit to actually THINK about what's going on, instead of being trolls.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:55 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Ah, so this is the thread that I supposedly "avoided like the plague".

Looking back through it I see that I whooped you for a while, but then let you limp away. I didn't quite finish you off, and now you're crowing

Let's see. We got to the point where I had you calling Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland 'democratic', and unable to explain what the difference between a revolution and a coup was. But what is the point you're saying I ran from? Is it this?
Quote:
As you can see, KPO was stymied by the topic of Kosovo, because he was "for" Kosovo but "against" Crimea, for no reason other than prejudice.

That would be a pretty outrageous lie, given that I kicked your ass on Kosovo in at least two other threads before this one. See this thread (where I'm actually quoting an earlier thread) - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=59642

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
For the record this was my attempt to have a rational discussion with you on this subject back in 2014:

KPO (2014):
Quote:
Independence/secessionist movements need to be considered on a case by case basis, balancing such priniciples as the right of self-determination, national sovereignty, and the region's unique history. No two situations are the same, and no two people will balance all these factors in the same way. It should be noted that different Western countries have different stances on accepting Kosovo's independence or not.

In the case of Kosovo ethnic Serbs see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman control. But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans to live again under Serbian rule, given the way the Serbian government treated them in the 1990s.


And what was your response?

Signy (2014):
Quote:
And, on what grounds are these movements to be "considered"? Because as far as I can tell, the metric that you apply is: pro-western= good, not pro-western=bad. All of your blah blah blah about history and such is so much rationalization. You don't have a rigorous, well-thought-out view that you could apply equally to all situations; so you'll just grab whatever excuse you need to justify whatever you want to see happen.

In other words, you have a purely self-centered, exceptionalist* view of the world...

And you went on like that, completely ignoring everything I said and eventually quoting some bullshit RT story about mass graves of raped and murdered victims in a poor attempt at false equivalence.


And in this thread I pressed you repeatedly about Kosovo (and your own hypocrisy): http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=10

Quote:
Quote:
You still haven't confirmed that you supported the Kosovo independence referendum of 1991.-KPO
That's because I don't know much about it. -Signym


So you see, for months I confronted you with your hypocrisy on Kosovo, and all you could do was plead ignorance. Then months later you post something on Kosovo that I didn't respond to, and you turn around and say that the subject has me "stymied"!

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, September 28, 2017 9:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I think, KRAPO, that if you re-read your posts and my replies, the person whose ass got whooped was yours. Don't make me quote you, because you know I will.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 2:49 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Don't make me quote you, because you know I will.

Haha, go for it. While you're at it, why don't you explain why you in 3 years you still haven't voiced your support for Kosovo's independence from (Russia-allied) Serbia?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, September 28, 2017 5:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
While you're at it, why don't you explain why you in 3 years you still haven't voiced your support for Kosovo's independence from (Russia-allied) Serbia?
For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas, an independent Kurdistan, an independent Catalan, an independent Florence, and independent Moldova, or any number of "secession" movements.

The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union. That says good things about the Soviet Union, not so much about the Roman or British Empires, which brutally fought its colonies for control even as those empires were breaking down. The USA Empire? Its end is yet to be written, but so far seems intent on following the same bloody path as the British Empire.

All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control. If you can't take over (invade, occupy, or subvert) another nation entirely, the next best thing is to break it into pieces, taking control of some of those pieces for yourself. The USA is EXCELLENT at that, fostering anti-government, partisan, religious, tribal, or racial divisions to break up existing nations; such as spending $5 billion to promote a "color revolution" in Ukraine (and other "color revolutions" elsewhere); sponsoring the creation of "South Sudan" (which has not improved the lives of the South Sudanese one whit) in the guise of "promoting democracy"; bombing the former Yugoslavia into pieces; and funding proxy armies of jihadists to break up Libya and Syria under the guise of being "pro-democracy".

So while there are secessionist movements that are completely organic, there are others where the USA has blown on those embers for years in the hopes that they'll catch fire.

Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically, and has devolved into a more-or-less strongman/gangster-nation which exists on smuggling, people-trafficking, and other criminal enterprises.

SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KRAPO, not amenable to your baited question.

Are there other ways to ensure that the rights of those who wish to secede can be guaranteed, aside from secession? When a portion secedes, who owes whom what monies? What about the minorities within a seceding area, who DON'T want to secede, or whose rights might be trampled within a new political, religious, or economic framework?

If you can figure out those answers, then maybe you'll figure out which secessions deserve support, and which ones don't.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 7:21 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas

Yes you have. From the Russia invades Ukraine thread:

Quote:

Let's assume that there is a portion of Ukraine where a clear majority wants separation. Let's assume it was a vote that even YOU would agree was free and fair. Would you allow it? -SIGNY
Only if Ukraine permitted it. -KPO
That's the difference between us, I guess. You really DO want to build societies on guns and bombs. Personally, I have no problems with separatists. I think the results of free and fair votes should be rewarded. - SIGNY

It seems your position on separatist movements has 'evolved' quite a bit.


Quote:
The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union.

Czechoslovakia? Serbia and Montenegro? Just off the top of my head.

Quote:
All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control... The USA is EXCELLENT at that

Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?

Quote:
Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically

Who decides that a nation is viable or not? You? Not the people themselves? This is just a way for you to dodge the question.

Quote:
SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KPO

Uh-huh, which is what I said. And your point with this thread is what then?



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Friday, September 29, 2017 8:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas - SIGNY

Yes you have. From the Russia invades Ukraine thread:- KRAPO
Wow, HOW MANY HOURS did it take you to find a couple of sentences out of all of the things I posted about secession?

I've thought about various aspects of secession - the effect of language groups, thinking about VARIOUS secessionist movements (Tamils etc) and even proposed a standard secession procedure (three votes over ten years), none of which you included.

But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it, but not for the secession of Crimea even though the overwhelming majority was for it.

It seems your position on separatist movements has 'wobbled' quite a bit.


Quote:
The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union. - SIGNY
Czechoslovakia? Serbia and Montenegro? Just off the top of my head.- KRAPO
Neither Czechoslovakia nor Serbia/Montenegro were multiple states, but in any case Czechoslovakia and Serbia/Montenegro were both part of the former Soviet Union, and so represent a continued peaceful breakup under the Soviet aegis. So you're making my point for me. Try coming up with a peaceful dissolution under British or American rule.

Quote:
All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control... The USA is EXCELLENT at that- SIGNY

Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?-
No, I don't. The problem is that currently pro-western governments have set themselves against their Russian-speaking, ethnically-Russian minority. AND YET, Russia doesn't support the creation of "breakaway" nations from these secessionist movements. Not even in the Donbas.

Quote:
Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically - SIGNY
Who decides that a nation is viable or not? You? Not the people themselves? This is just a way for you to dodge the question. - KRAPO
What question is that?

In any case, I'm not suggesting that a breakaway state be denied independence on the basis of size. After all, look at Malta. I'm just pointing out that "independence" wasn't all it was cracked up to be for the Kosovars. Or the South Sudanese, either, for that matter.

Quote:
SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KPO- SIGNY
Uh-huh, which is what I said.- KRAPO

At least we agree in principle that it's complicated. Except for Kosovo, in which case it's really simple for you!


Quote:
And your point with this thread is what then? - KRAPO
I guess you don't know what it means to DISCUSS anything? You have to turn everything into a fight? What the hell is wrong with you?

Quote:
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."= KRAPO


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, September 29, 2017 1:35 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Hey look! After a long hiatus, T and G are both back at almost the exact same time!

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Friday, September 29, 2017 2:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas - SIGNY

Yes you have. From the Russia invades Ukraine thread:- KRAPO
Wow, HOW MANY HOURS did it take you to find a couple of sentences out of all of the things I posted about secession?

I've thought about various aspects of secession - the effect of language groups, thinking about VARIOUS secessionist movements (Tamils etc) and even proposed a standard secession procedure (three votes over ten years), none of which you included.

But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it, but not for the secession of Crimea even though the overwhelming majority was for it.

It seems your position on separatist movements has 'wobbled' quite a bit.


Quote:
The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union. - SIGNY
Czechoslovakia? Serbia and Montenegro? Just off the top of my head.- KRAPO
Neither Czechoslovakia nor Serbia/Montenegro were multiple states, but in any case Czechoslovakia and Serbia/Montenegro were both part of the former Soviet Union, and so represent a continued peaceful breakup under the Soviet aegis. So you're making my point for me. Try coming up with a peaceful dissolution under British or American rule.

Quote:
All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control... The USA is EXCELLENT at that- SIGNY

Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?-
No, I don't. The problem is that currently pro-western governments have set themselves against their Russian-speaking, ethnically-Russian minority. AND YET, Russia doesn't support the creation of "breakaway" nations from these secessionist movements. Not even in the Donbas.

Quote:
Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically - SIGNY
Who decides that a nation is viable or not? You? Not the people themselves? This is just a way for you to dodge the question. - KRAPO
What question is that?

In any case, I'm not suggesting that a breakaway state be denied independence on the basis of size. After all, look at Malta. I'm just pointing out that "independence" wasn't all it was cracked up to be for the Kosovars. Or the South Sudanese, either, for that matter.

Quote:
SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KPO- SIGNY
Uh-huh, which is what I said.- KRAPO

At least we agree in principle that it's complicated. Except for Kosovo, in which case it's really simple for you!


Quote:
And your point with this thread is what then? - KRAPO
I guess you don't know what it means to DISCUSS anything? You have to turn everything into a fight? What the hell is wrong with you?

Quote:
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."= KRAPO



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, September 29, 2017 2:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Baghdad Designates Iraqi Kurdistan No-Fly Zone, Threatens To Down Any Aircraft Flying Over Region Without Permission

Starting today the Iraqi government has closed airspace in its northern Kurdistan region to international flights.
According to statement released by the Iraqi government, the no-fly zone is in effect over an area officially controlled by the Kurdistan Regional Government including Sulaymaniyah, Erbil, and Dohuk.
The Iraqi Air Force has a right to shoot down any aircraft that is flying over this region without permission.
Iraq threatened to implement a no-fly zone in the Iraqi Kurdistan airspace after the Independence referendum, which took place on September 25.
Baghdad considers the referendum unconstitutional, and had previously issued an order surrender the control over the airports in Erbil and Sulaymaniyah to Baghdad.

https://southfront.org/baghdad-designates-iraqi-kurdistan-no-fly-zone-
threatens-to-down-any-aircraft-flying-over-region-without-permission/


Spanish Government Orders Google To Delete App Used For Catalan Independence Vote
Catalonia’s High Court on Friday ordered Google to delete an application that it said Catalan separatists were using to spread information about a disputed independence vote this Sunday, Reuters reported. The court also ordered Google to block any future applications developed by the gmail address “Onvotar1oct@gmail.com”, according to a written ruling.

The app, which was available on Google Play until just before 7 p.m. on Friday, helps people to find their polling station via their address and shows the closest polling stations on Google Maps via GPS, the name of the town or keywords. It also allows users to share links to polling station locations, according to The Spain Report.

Google told The Spain Report that: "we remove content from our platforms when we receive a court order or when it violates our terms and conditions". The app no longer appears to be available from Spain.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-29/spanish-government-orders-goo
gle-delete-app-used-catalan-independence-vote

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, September 29, 2017 2:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I note that Catalans don't speak Spanish, just as Basques don't speak Spanish, Kurds don't speak Arabic, people in Donbas and Crimea don't speak Ukrainian.

So ONE of the drivers of secessionist movements is language, which allows people to form a cohesive identity aside from national boundaries. Something to think about, when a nation (such as the USA) tolerates millions of people who don't speak the common language.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, September 29, 2017 7:17 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Wow, HOW MANY HOURS did it take you to find a couple of sentences

About 1-2 minutes.

I think that's about 5 times in the last couple of weeks that you've denied ever saying something and then I've found the thread and quoted you, proving you a liar.

Quote:
But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it,

I explained clearly why I support Kosovo's secession (and re-posted that explanation multiple times) so there's no need to put words in my mouth. Here it is for a 4th time:

KPO (2014):

"Independence/secessionist movements need to be considered on a case by case basis, balancing such principles as the right of self-determination, national sovereignty, and the region's unique history. No two situations are the same, and no two people will balance all these factors in the same way. It should be noted that different Western countries have different stances on accepting Kosovo's independence or not.

In the case of Kosovo ethnic Serbs see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman control. But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans to live again under Serbian rule, given the way the Serbian government treated them in the 1990s."


Quote:

I've thought about various aspects of secession

You make a show of reasoned, democratic discussion, and then you side with the Russian government every time.

Quote:

It seems your position on separatist movements has 'wobbled' quite a bit.

No, it hasn't.

Quote:
but in any case Czechoslovakia and Serbia/Montenegro were both part of the former Soviet Union

Oh dear. I don't even know what your point is with this whole "peaceful breakup" of the Soviet Union tangent, but why don't you start by learning what states were in the Soviet Union?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union

Quote:
so represent a continued peaceful breakup under the Soviet aegis. So you're making my point for me.

lolz

Quote:
Quote:

Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?
No, I don't.



Quote:
AND YET, Russia doesn't support the creation of "breakaway" nations from these secessionist movements. Not even in the Donbas.

God bless Russia and its complete commitment to non-interference in the affairs of other states.

Quote:

At least we agree in principle that it's complicated. Except for Kosovo, in which case it's really simple for you!

Only when you put words in my mouth.

Quote:
I guess you don't know what it means to DISCUSS anything?

lolz


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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