REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Minimum Wage Increase Eliminates Minimum Wage Jobs By Forcing Businesses Out of The Market

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Sunday, February 3, 2019 13:52
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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:06 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Surprise, Surprise!!

Of course, this proof that raising the Minimum Wage by $1 increases the "marginal" restaurant (the place where you get good deals, you were not getting screwed for food) rate of Going Out of Business by 14% does not apply to 4- and 5-Star restaurants. So those places encourage higher Minimum Wage Laws to force their competition out of business.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2951110

New study from Harvard, released 7 days ago.

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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:20 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Even though I believe what you said is the absolute truth here (I've said it many times myself over the years here), something needs to be done about it.

Back when minimum wage was 5.25 back around 1996 or so gas was less than a buck a gallon most of the time and we hadn't even seen the large spike in prices of everything that $2.00/gal gas brought in the early 2000's. Since then, there have been quite a few times where the price of gas has gone over $4.00 per gallon.

Since then, the minimum wage has only increased twice and now sits at $7.25/gal.

I know nobody is supposed to be able to make a living wage off of the minimum, but at this point it's almost not even worth working for minimum unless you are a single mother with 3 or more kids (in which case the EIC will double your pay at the end of the year).


My last good job paid me in a single day what takes more than a week to make at a part time minimum wage job. What's worse is that after Obamacare was passed, no business will give you more than 29 hours a week if they don't want to pay for your healthcare, so MANY people are working 2 or even 3 crappy part time minimum wage jobs now. Have you ever had the added nightmare of trying to balance life with that, or tried to find employers who were thrilled about having to work around your work schedule?


Then consider that the employment numbers are, and have been, a lie for a very long time. When somebody is working 2 or 3 crap minimum wage jobs, that counts as 2 or 3 jobs that are being worked even though it's only one person working them. Close to 50% of jobs in America now are minimum wage jobs.


I don't know what the answer to this is. I'm just saying that it does need to be increased.

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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
Even though I believe what you said is the absolute truth here (I've said it many times myself over the years here), something needs to be done about it.

Back when minimum wage was 5.25 back around 1996 or so gas was less than a buck a gallon most of the time and we hadn't even seen the large spike in prices of everything that $2.00/gal gas brought in the early 2000's. Since then, there have been quite a few times where the price of gas has gone over $4.00 per gallon.

Since then, the minimum wage has only increased twice and now sits at $7.25/gal.

I know nobody is supposed to be able to make a living wage off of the minimum, but at this point it's almost not even worth working for minimum unless you are a single mother with 3 or more kids (in which case the EIC will double your pay at the end of the year).


My last good job paid me in a single day what takes more than a week to make at a part time minimum wage job. What's worse is that after Obamacare was passed, no business will give you more than 29 hours a week if they don't want to pay for your healthcare, so MANY people are working 2 or even 3 crappy part time minimum wage jobs now. Have you ever had the added nightmare of trying to balance life with that, or tried to find employers who were thrilled about having to work around your work schedule?


Then consider that the employment numbers are, and have been, a lie for a very long time. When somebody is working 2 or 3 crap minimum wage jobs, that counts as 2 or 3 jobs that are being worked even though it's only one person working them. Close to 50% of jobs in America now are minimum wage jobs.


I don't know what the answer to this is. I'm just saying that it does need to be increased.


Why do you think the prices go up? Why do you think the costs increase? You think it is led by China, jumping their Minimum Wage from 2 cents per day to 4 cents per day?

It is the American Minimum Wage. The Unions want it to be increased because the Law requires that ALL UNION WAGES be increased at the same rate of increase as the Minimum Wage - so that Union Workers will still make more than the Minimum Wagers, and the Minimum Wagers will still be at the bottom, but they might be happier with a bigger number, while their increase in numbers has increased all of the expenses in the world around them - so they have made LESS by getting a Minimum Wage increase.

Less Minimum Wage, Less EIC

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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:18 PM

DREAMTROVE


So true. Almost no starting worker will generate that in productivity. It's becoming a question of how long of a losing investment will new American workers be? and when do you just give up and outsource?

Remember the old days, volunteer intern ship, and then wages that start at what you produce, like profit sharing, and then you work up to making more? I was making $50/hr in college, that's $150ish today for a college student, not bad, it's all about productivity, but nowadays they never get there because there's no incentive to boost productivity.

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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 9:46 PM

6STRINGJOKER


One way or another you're paying for it anyway. I could get a job tomorrow and in 3 months I will be receiving $2,400/yr tax free food stamps. Being a single male, my EIC will only be around $200/yr, but many of the women I worked with at my last job were getting between $400-$600/month in food stamps and $6,000-$12,000/yr in EIC. That means while I'm paying a modest sum on taxes, they're working the same job as I do and paying no taxes and being paid twice as much as I make.

That's not even taking into consideration all the people getting healthcare for free now when middle class workers are paying 3 times as much and have double the deductible for their family.


Meanwhile, the car insurance and homeowners insurance this year saw another 10% increase by me, and local property taxes jumped 15% (a majority of that increase going to schools).


8 years of Obama and the average American worker is making 3% more than they were when he got into office. Even with the modest increases in inflation that J0 provided the compounded inflation rate over the same 8 years was over 18%... Meanwhile, corporations are now making more than 60% more than when Obama first took office.


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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 10:21 PM

DREAMTROVE


6,

the value of the dollar is so much worse than that, so the wages as well, but speaking as an employer, the average new hire is no way going to earn their keep. literally what we are doing is kicking back the negative investment period of any new hire which used to be about two weeks and now seems to be a couple of months. not surprisingly, there are fewer new hires as a result. the economy with none of this is the one that automatically beats us, and i suspect that is called bitcoin.

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Wednesday, April 19, 2017 12:28 AM

6STRINGJOKER


If you're hiring I'm interested. Nobody has ever claimed that I didn't earn my keep.

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Wednesday, April 19, 2017 3:05 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


...and yet sumhow, there are more millionairez and billionairez than ever and they own a greater % uv the country than ever. Odd.

Maybe we need to make maximum waje lawz for employeez insted! That'l fix it!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com

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Wednesday, April 19, 2017 7:48 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Average CEO pay is 475 times what the lowest paid employee at the same company is paid. That doesn't even take into account stock options, bonuses, insurance, other benefits and golden parachutes.

In 2015, 7 years after the Big Banks were bailed out by taxpayer dollars, Wall Street bonuses (not regular compensation) totaled 28.4 billion dollars. The same year, total compensation to every single person in this country who earns minimum wage? 14 billion dollars.

That's double plus ungood, considering more than 45% of American workers today are being paid minimum wage.

Start watching at around 7:00 to see economist Mark Blyth talk about this in a forum he was at explaining why Brexit and Trump happened.


This is also what I mean when I have defended Capitalism in here. Capitalism works, but we don't have Capitalism in America because of the Government. What we have is Predatory Capitalism.

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Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:03 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


I agree with alot uv wut they are saying!

About the numberz, tho, I'm wundering if he iz uzing the old British 'billion' wich I believ iz actually trillion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion



----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com

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Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Remember, increasing the minimum wage means the employer pays almost double the increase, which then must be collected by charging more for the product or service, which is then paid for by the Minimum Wage Earner.
So, getting an increase in the Minimum Wage means the costs double and the Minimum Wage Earner is TWICE as far behind in the Earning/Cost ratio!!

This is exactly how the dollar gets devalued. It's not from the Chinese worker getting 2 rice balls per day instead of one - it is from the American Minimum Wage increases.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
One way or another you're paying for it anyway. I could get a job tomorrow and in 3 months I will be receiving $2,400/yr tax free food stamps. Being a single male, my EIC will only be around $200/yr, but many of the women I worked with at my last job were getting between $400-$600/month in food stamps and $6,000-$12,000/yr in EIC. That means while I'm paying a modest sum on taxes, they're working the same job as I do and paying no taxes and being paid twice as much as I make.

EIC overpayment is all hocus pocus from Obama, the foundation of his plan to destroy America and the economy. If this ws based upon economic principles and value or productivity, this EIC overpayment garbage would not exist.
Quote:


That's not even taking into consideration all the people getting healthcare for free now when middle class workers are paying 3 times as much and have double the deductible for their family.

All due to Obamacare destroying the economy.
Quote:

Meanwhile, the car insurance and homeowners insurance this year saw another 10% increase by me,
increased costs germinated by the increased Minimum Wage cause companies to increase their rates to pay for it it
Quote:

and local property taxes jumped 15% (a majority of that increase going to schools).
HELLOOOOOO!!!!! Increase in Minimum Wage requires by Law that UNION TEACHERS get paid more for doing less. This is exactly why they want to raise the Minimum Wage!! - so they have an excuse to raise your taxes to pay for their McMansions. In my neighboring Florence County, the High School Math teacher bought his first Island some years ago - and his wife does not work.
Quote:

8 years of Obama and the average American worker is making 3% more than they were when he got into office. Even with the modest increases in inflation that J0 provided the compounded inflation rate over the same 8 years was over 18%... Meanwhile, corporations are now making more than 60% more than when Obama first took office.

Sure, but you are supposed to believe all of the lies that he told you, so you'll be happy. Aren't you a BELIEVER?

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Wednesday, April 19, 2017 6:13 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

This is exactly how the dollar gets devalued. It's not from the Chinese worker getting 2 rice balls per day instead of one - it is from the American Minimum Wage increases.


Wrong. The US dollar loses value through quantitative easing. Think of it as the dollar in your wallet being stock in the US dollar. It's not just the Central Bank, but every single loan that every single bank makes is a split on your stock, but you don't get the split.



They don't even need a printing press anymore. Money creation is all done in 1's and 0's now.

This ends up hurting everybody, but is especially hard on those who make next to nothing. The only reason that we're not seeing riots on the street and people eating the rich right now is because of the Government subsidies propping up the ever increasing lower class.

Quote:

EIC overpayment is all hocus pocus from Obama, the foundation of his plan to destroy America and the economy. If this ws based upon economic principles and value or productivity, this EIC overpayment garbage would not exist.


There is no "overpayment" in EIC. These women aren't breaking any tax laws. It wasn't all Obama either. The Feminists want to bitch about the gender wage gap, but with nearly 50% of Americans making below poverty almost half of American Women get paid more than men for the same job because of the EIC.

Quote:

HELLOOOOOO!!!!! Increase in Minimum Wage requires by Law that UNION TEACHERS get paid more for doing less. This is exactly why they want to raise the Minimum Wage!! - so they have an excuse to raise your taxes to pay for their McMansions. In my neighboring Florence County, the High School Math teacher bought his first Island some years ago - and his wife does not work.


I agree with you here. There should be no teachers unions. No professionals should have unions. It's also a way to make them virtually unfireable no matter if they are a bad teacher or not.


Quote:

Sure, but you are supposed to believe all of the lies that he told you, so you'll be happy. Aren't you a BELIEVER?


I don't know who the hell do you think you're talking to. I'm on record saying many times that Obama was the worst president we've ever had.



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Wednesday, April 19, 2017 6:18 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by JO753:
I agree with alot uv wut they are saying!

About the numberz, tho, I'm wundering if he iz uzing the old British 'billion' wich I believ iz actually trillion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion



I love Jimmy Dore. He's a liberal I agree with about 90% of the time.

They didn't mean Trillion J0. There's no way that all minimum wage workers made 14 Trillion in 2015. If that were the case our massive deficit wouldn't be that big a deal.


Now take a look at that $20 Trillion dollar debt and compare it to the $14 Billion that minimum wage workers made in 2015.

Then consider that in only 8 years, Obama increased the national deficit 714 times what every single minimum wage worker made in 2015.

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Thursday, April 20, 2017 4:34 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


AND its an incontrivirtable fact - under the oppressive authoritarian iron fist uv Obama the national det grew to 120 TRILLION timez the prise uv an egg!!! Its true! All the henz in the world woud haf to lay eggz for over 120 yirz to pay it off!

Here - http://www.factcheck.org/2016/07/obamas-numbers-july-2016-update/ - take a breather frum your propaganda huffing.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com

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Thursday, April 20, 2017 5:15 PM

6STRINGJOKER


The numbers I offered are sound. I actually rounded Obama's addition to the deficit down to only 10 Trillion when I compared it to the amount that every American making minimum wage made in 2015.

What propaganda?

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Thursday, April 20, 2017 5:36 PM

DREAMTROVE


Something I think this is a battle between people who paid attention in economics, and those who dropped it for identity group humanities classes.

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Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:05 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:

This is exactly how the dollar gets devalued. It's not from the Chinese worker getting 2 rice balls per day instead of one - it is from the American Minimum Wage increases.
Wrong. The US dollar loses value through quantitative easing.

Are you trying to claim that the dollar has never been devalued prior to the creation of Quantitative Easing?
Quote:

This ends up hurting everybody, but is especially hard on those who make next to nothing. The only reason that we're not seeing riots on the street and people eating the rich right now is because of the Government subsidies propping up the ever increasing lower class.
Quote:

EIC overpayment is all hocus pocus from Obama, the foundation of his plan to destroy America and the economy. If this ws based upon economic principles and value or productivity, this EIC overpayment garbage would not exist.
There is no "overpayment" in EIC. These women aren't breaking any tax laws. It wasn't all Obama either. The Feminists want to bitch about the gender wage gap, but with nearly 50% of Americans making below poverty almost half of American Women get paid more than men for the same job because of the EIC.

I did not intend to imply that this overpayment of EIC was not legal, or codified into the tax code, and I am sorry if you inferred I did.
This is an intentional overpayment of EIC, which means it is not based upon productivity or value, but based upon Obama's social dementia and goals - the same Obama who freely admits that "math does not work out the way we think it should" - because math is not delusional and partisan.

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Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:14 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Are you trying to claim that the dollar has never been devalued prior to the creation of Quantitative Easing?


Absolutely not. What I am saying though is nothing else matters anymore. Not one single thing that is or has ever happened to the US economy even puts a dent into how destructive quantitative easing is. Quantitative easing was the death knell to the US economy. Raising the minimum wage now would do almost no damage, relatively speaking.

Quote:

I did not intend to imply that this overpayment of EIC was not legal, or codified into the tax code, and I am sorry if your inferred I did.
This is an intentional overpayment of EIC, which means it is not based upon productivity or value, but based upon Obama's social dementia and goals - the same Obama who freely admits that "math does not work out the way we think it should" - because math is not delusional and partisan.



I read you wrong. I agree, but it wasn't Obama's idea although he happily went along with it and touted it as good. The government as a whole for quite some time has been heading this way, but that whole thing is another discussion that involves quite a bit of MGTOW ideas that I agree with but would derail this thread.

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Friday, April 21, 2017 5:47 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Are you trying to claim that the dollar has never been devalued prior to the creation of Quantitative Easing?


Absolutely not. What I am saying though is nothing else matters anymore. Not one single thing that is or has ever happened to the US economy even puts a dent into how destructive quantitative easing is. Quantitative easing was the death knell to the US economy. Raising the minimum wage now would do almost no damage, relatively speaking.


Relatively, yes. But any damage is still damage, and unneeded. Reducing or eliminating illegal or undocumented workers, requiring (able-bodied) people to perform work (and/or pass drug tests) for their government subsistence are the types of policies which will produce major corrections in the fair market value of workers, and render the Minumum Wage meaningless.
Your insistence of raising the Minimum Wage, thereby doubling the expense increase to employers, which must then raise prices (or go out of business, or fire the minimum wage worker), will still put the Minimum Wage Worker TWICE as far behind - which is not your stated goal.
Also your insistence of raising the Minimum Wage in order to require Teachers Unions to get even more overpaid and therefor increase your property taxes will also have the opposite effect by increasing your expenses far more than your increase in income, which was not your stated goal.
Quote:


MGTOW ideas


MGTOW? Elaborate or expand that acronym?

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Friday, April 21, 2017 5:57 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Relatively, yes. But any damage is still damage, and unneeded. Reducing or eliminating illegal or undocumented workers, requiring (able-bodied) people to perform work (and/or pass drug tests) for their government subsistence are the types of policies which will produce major corrections in the fair market value of workers, and render the Minumum Wage meaningless.
Your insistence of raising the Minimum Wage, thereby doubling the expense increase to employers, which must then raise prices (or go out of business, or fire the minimum wage worker), will still put the Minimum Wage Worker TWICE as far behind - which is not your stated goal.
Also your insistence of raising the Minimum Wage in order to require Teachers Unions to get even more overpaid and therefor increase your property taxes will also have the opposite effect by increasing your expenses far more than your increase in income, which was not your stated goal.



I'm not sure that I'm insisting on a minimum wage increase. I'm only stating that I'm not adamantly against it like I used to be and that something needs to be done. What we have now is nearly half of the country making minimum wage and it's almost not even worth working for that amount of money anymore. I don't claim to have the answer, and I agree that if a minimum wage increase were to happen and nothing else happened along with it that it would probably cause more problems.

I guess the problem is that nothing is being done. The only two options I ever see being discussed is either doing nothing, or just raising the minimum wage and nothing else. Both of those options are not good.

Quote:

MGTOW? Elaborate or expand that acronym?


Men Go Their Own Way. Forgive me. I thought I saw you post some videos on the subject before. Stefan Moleneux and some others have some videos on the subject, particularly the idea of Government supplying women with many alternative means for sustenance for themselves and their children without the need for a male to be in the picture to provide for them. Again, it's a very detailed subject and would not fit with this thread topic.

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Saturday, April 22, 2017 9:05 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

I'm not sure that I'm insisting on a minimum wage increase. I'm only stating that I'm not adamantly against it like I used to be and that something needs to be done. What we have now is nearly half of the country making minimum wage and it's almost not even worth working for that amount of money anymore. I don't claim to have the answer, and I agree that if a minimum wage increase were to happen and nothing else happened along with it that it would probably cause more problems.

I guess the problem is that nothing is being done. The only two options I ever see being discussed is either doing nothing, or just raising the minimum wage and nothing else. Both of those options are not good.

If you wanted a better job at higher wages for yourself, and can wait for many years, the two straightforward ways for the Federal government to make it happen are deport millions of illegals working in the USA or raise the minimum wage at a slow and dignified rate of one dollar per year. I don’t see Congress cooperating with either one. If you want the extreme third way, like go to WWII and have full employment, I don’t see Congress agreeing to that, either.

World War sound too extreme for Congress to create jobs? Then how about spending trillions on infrastructure? That is not happening, either. By the way, a trillion divided by the USA's population is only $3,000 per person. $3,000 won't go far.

Deportation seems reasonable but there aren’t enough illegals to remove. Removing them all, all at once, and wages will bump upward, but won’t stay high. And besides, the deportations won’t happen fast because Trump doesn’t have the manpower authorized by Congress to make it happen in a year. It may take a decade. Can you really wait? Do you have the patience? It is about numbers and how long you can tolerate being poorly paid or unpaid.

This, by Ryan Avent, might get you to thinking:
https://medium.com/@ryanavent_93844/the-productivity-paradox-aaf05e5e4aad

Given the structure of our social safety net, automation tends to increase poverty and inequality rather than unemployment.

What effect does all this have? There are several.

First, as the economy attempts to absorb lots of relatively undifferentiated labour, wages stagnate or fall. As wages fall it becomes economical to hire people for low productivity work. So employment in low productivity jobs expands, affecting aggregate productivity figures.

Second, the abundance of labour, and downward pressure on wages, reduces the incentive to invest in new labour-saving technologies. Until pressed, firms don’t overhaul and automate their warehouse or swap out some wait staff for touchscreens. So productivity within sectors grows more slowly than it otherwise might. There are dynamic effects as well: when you don’t deploy new technologies because labour is cheap, you don’t get all the tweaks and knock-on innovations and accumulation of intangible capital that contributes to still more productivity growth down the road.

Third, the abundance of labour destroys worker bargaining power. That hurts in lots of different ways. Workers find themselves receiving a declining share of income. Workers are unable to bargain for the kinds of changes that might reduce the pain of economic shifts: like training to help some workers fill new niches complementary to technology, or profit-sharing.

Fourth, low wages and a falling labour share lead to a misfiring macroeconomy, because more resources are concentrated in the wealthy hands of those with high propensity to save while the impetus to invest is also diminished. And chronically weak demand is worse for workers and for productivity growth.

So there you are: continued high levels of employment with weak growth in wages and productivity is not evidence of disappointing technological progress; it is what you’d expect to see if technological progress were occurring rapidly in a world where thin safety nets mean that dropping out of the labour force leads to a life of poverty.

The book Ryan Avent is pimping, I mean promoting, is easy to find: “The Wealth of Humans”.
https://thepiratebay.org/search/Ryan%20Avent/0/99/0

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 22, 2017 5:33 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Relatively, yes. But any damage is still damage, and unneeded. Reducing or eliminating illegal or undocumented workers, requiring (able-bodied) people to perform work (and/or pass drug tests) for their government subsistence are the types of policies which will produce major corrections in the fair market value of workers, and render the Minumum Wage meaningless.
Your insistence of raising the Minimum Wage, thereby doubling the expense increase to employers, which must then raise prices (or go out of business, or fire the minimum wage worker), will still put the Minimum Wage Worker TWICE as far behind - which is not your stated goal.
Also your insistence of raising the Minimum Wage in order to require Teachers Unions to get even more overpaid and therefor increase your property taxes will also have the opposite effect by increasing your expenses far more than your increase in income, which was not your stated goal.


I'm not sure that I'm insisting on a minimum wage increase.

OK, sorry. I made assumption based upon what you had posted. My bad.
Quote:

I'm only stating that I'm not adamantly against it like I used to be and that something needs to be done. What we have now is nearly half of the country making minimum wage and it's almost not even worth working for that amount of money anymore.
8 years of Obama is the exact recipe for that. It would have also been the result of 8 years of Jiminy Carter.
Quote:

I don't claim to have the answer, and I agree that if a minimum wage increase were to happen and nothing else happened along with it that it would probably cause more problems.

I guess the problem is that nothing is being done. The only two options I ever see being discussed is either doing nothing, or just raising the minimum wage and nothing else. Both of those options are not good.


The rising economy will help, and maybe fix all that. When businesses are allow to prosper, they will need to hire, and the most talented or skilled will be the first to be plucked off the Minimum Wage level, and eventually even the lowest skill level will be paid more than Minimum Wage - which will upset the Unions greatly, with their members earnng comparatively less than everybody else (who got increased pay). So the Unions will demand an increase to the Minimum Wage (funny how their ony answer is raise the Minimum Wage, no matter if the economy is a juggernaut or in depression or recession) so their wages will be frced higher, without increase in productivity.

Last couple years I was doing some day-labor work just manual stuff which needed people to show up on time and do some simple, non-strenuous work. For a few years they were paying $10/hour, while other temp jobs were still doing 9 or 8 or less, I think. Trump was elected in November. Trump took office January 20. At the end of Jan, i got a text letting me know that the same temp work was now paying $11/hr, and could I come work for them? One week later, another text letting me know the rate was up to $12/hr.
When the demand for the workforce (businesses, employers needing more workers) grows more than the supply of the workforce (unemployed, illegal, underpaid, and just lazy), then the pay rates will continue to rise, rendering the Minimum Wage meaningless, except for the Unions who demand increases to their pay.

IIRC at the end of the Reagan years, I did not know anybody who wasn't making more than the Minimum Wage - nobody even knew what the Min Wage was. And these were simple jobs after I moved States - restaurant and such.

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Saturday, April 22, 2017 6:02 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

The rising economy will help, and maybe fix all that. When businesses are allow to prosper, they will need to hire, and the most talented or skilled will be the first to be plucked off the Minimum Wage level, and eventually even the lowest skill level will be paid more than Minimum Wage - which will upset the Unions greatly, with their members earning comparatively less than everybody else (who got increased pay). So the Unions will demand an increase to the Minimum Wage (funny how their ony answer is raise the Minimum Wage, no matter if the economy is a juggernaut or in depression or recession) so their wages will be forced higher, without increase in productivity.

Last couple years I was doing some day-labor work just manual stuff which needed people to show up on time and do some simple, non-strenuous work. For a few years they were paying $10/hour, while other temp jobs were still doing 9 or 8 or less, I think. Trump was elected in November. Trump took office January 20. At the end of Jan, i got a text letting me know that the same temp work was now paying $11/hr, and could I come work for them? One week later, another text letting me know the rate was up to $12/hr.

When the demand for the workforce (businesses, employers needing more workers) grows more than the supply of the workforce (unemployed, illegal, underpaid, and just lazy), then the pay rates will continue to rise, rendering the Minimum Wage meaningless, except for the Unions who demand increases to their pay.

Your rosy projections are not going to happen because the USA does not work the way you think it does. America is not one country anymore. It is becoming two, each with vastly different resources, expectations, and fates.
www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-is-regressing-into-a-d
eveloping-nation-for-most-people


In a new book, The Vanishing Middle Class: Prejudice and Power in a Dual Economy, Peter Temin, Professor Emeritus of Economics at MIT, draws a portrait of the new reality in a way that is frighteningly, indelibly clear: America is regressing into a developing nation for most people.

In one of these countries live members of what Temin calls the “FTE sector” (named for finance, technology, and electronics, the industries which largely support its growth). These are the 20 percent of Americans who enjoy college educations, have good jobs, and sleep soundly knowing that they have not only enough money to meet life’s challenges, but also social networks to bolster their success. They grow up with parents who read books to them, tutors to help with homework, and plenty of stimulating things to do and places to go. They travel in planes and drive new cars. The citizens of this country see economic growth all around them and exciting possibilities for the future. They make plans, influence policies, and count themselves as lucky to be Americans.

The FTE citizens rarely visit the country where the other 80 percent of Americans live: the low-wage sector.

The richest large economy in the world, says Temin, is coming to have an economic and political structure more like a developing nation. We have entered a phase of regression, and one of the easiest ways to see it is in our infrastructure: our roads and bridges look more like those in Thailand or Venezuela than the Netherlands or Japan. But it goes far deeper than that, which is why Temin uses a famous economic model created to understand developing nations to describe how far inequality has progressed in the United States. The model is the work of West Indian economist W. Arthur Lewis, the only person of African descent to win a Nobel Prize in economics. For the first time, this model is applied with systematic precision to the U.S.

The result is profoundly disturbing.

In the Lewis model of a dual economy, much of the low-wage sector has little influence over public policy. Check. The high-income sector will keep wages down in the other sector to provide cheap labor for its businesses. Check. Social control is used to keep the low-wage sector from challenging the policies favored by the high-income sector. Mass incarceration - Check. The primary goal of the richest members of the high-income sector is to lower taxes. Check. Social and economic mobility is low. Check.

Temin’s book has provided a giant red flag, illustrating a trajectory that will continue to accelerate as long as the 20 percent in the FTE sector are permitted to operate a country within America’s borders solely for themselves at the expense of the majority.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, April 23, 2017 4:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

The rising economy will help, and maybe fix all that. When businesses are allow to prosper, they will need to hire, and the most talented or skilled will be the first to be plucked off the Minimum Wage level, and eventually even the lowest skill level will be paid more than Minimum Wage - which will upset the Unions greatly, with their members earning comparatively less than everybody else (who got increased pay). So the Unions will demand an increase to the Minimum Wage (funny how their ony answer is raise the Minimum Wage, no matter if the economy is a juggernaut or in depression or recession) so their wages will be forced higher, without increase in productivity.

Last couple years I was doing some day-labor work just manual stuff which needed people to show up on time and do some simple, non-strenuous work. For a few years they were paying $10/hour, while other temp jobs were still doing 9 or 8 or less, I think. Trump was elected in November. Trump took office January 20. At the end of Jan, i got a text letting me know that the same temp work was now paying $11/hr, and could I come work for them? One week later, another text letting me know the rate was up to $12/hr.

When the demand for the workforce (businesses, employers needing more workers) grows more than the supply of the workforce (unemployed, illegal, underpaid, and just lazy), then the pay rates will continue to rise, rendering the Minimum Wage meaningless, except for the Unions who demand increases to their pay.

Your rosy projections are not going to happen because the USA does not work the way you think it does. America is not one country anymore. It is becoming two, each with vastly different resources, expectations, and fates.
www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-is-regressing-into-a-d
eveloping-nation-for-most-people


In a new book, The Vanishing Middle Class: Prejudice and Power in a Dual Economy, Peter Temin, Professor Emeritus of Economics at MIT, draws a portrait of the new reality in a way that is frighteningly, indelibly clear: America is regressing into a developing nation for most people.

In one of these countries live members of what Temin calls the “FTE sector” (named for finance, technology, and electronics, the industries which largely support its growth). These are the 20 percent of Americans who enjoy college educations, have good jobs, and sleep soundly knowing that they have not only enough money to meet life’s challenges, but also social networks to bolster their success. They grow up with parents who read books to them, tutors to help with homework, and plenty of stimulating things to do and places to go. They travel in planes and drive new cars. The citizens of this country see economic growth all around them and exciting possibilities for the future. They make plans, influence policies, and count themselves as lucky to be Americans.

The FTE citizens rarely visit the country where the other 80 percent of Americans live: the low-wage sector.

The richest large economy in the world, says Temin, is coming to have an economic and political structure more like a developing nation. We have entered a phase of regression, and one of the easiest ways to see it is in our infrastructure: our roads and bridges look more like those in Thailand or Venezuela than the Netherlands or Japan. But it goes far deeper than that, which is why Temin uses a famous economic model created to understand developing nations to describe how far inequality has progressed in the United States. The model is the work of West Indian economist W. Arthur Lewis, the only person of African descent to win a Nobel Prize in economics. For the first time, this model is applied with systematic precision to the U.S.

The result is profoundly disturbing.

In the Lewis model of a dual economy, much of the low-wage sector has little influence over public policy. Check. The high-income sector will keep wages down in the other sector to provide cheap labor for its businesses. Check. Social control is used to keep the low-wage sector from challenging the policies favored by the high-income sector. Mass incarceration - Check. The primary goal of the richest members of the high-income sector is to lower taxes. Check. Social and economic mobility is low. Check.

Temin’s book has provided a giant red flag, illustrating a trajectory that will continue to accelerate as long as the 20 percent in the FTE sector are permitted to operate a country within America’s borders solely for themselves at the expense of the majority.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


If human history is any indication, those in your proclaimed class are going to need to build a wall around their country, and hire their own Army to protect them and their possessions.

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Sunday, April 23, 2017 6:27 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

If human history is any indication, those in your proclaimed class are going to need to build a wall around their country, and hire their own Army to protect them and their possessions.



Agreed.

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Sunday, April 23, 2017 8:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


jsf

I'm not seeing DATA that links higher minimum wage to reduced economic growth.
The other thing I dispute is that everyone was thriving under Reagan. I personally knew a lot of people working minimum wage back then. And figures bear me out:



You seem to be talking about some imaginary world that runs by how you fantasize things should run, rather than the real world everyone else inhabits.




Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Tuesday, April 25, 2017 7:48 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
jsf

I'm not seeing DATA that links higher minimum wage to reduced economic growth.
The other thing I dispute is that everyone was thriving under Reagan. I personally knew a lot of people working minimum wage back then. And figures bear me out:



Quote:


You seem to be talking about some imaginary world that runs by how you fantasize things should run, rather than the real world everyone else inhabits.


I don't see anything in your graphic about Minimum Wage.
Did you read the linky in the OP?
I'm not seeing what you're saying.

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Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
When the demand for the workforce (businesses, employers needing more workers) grows more than the supply of the workforce (unemployed, illegal, underpaid, and just lazy), then the pay rates will continue to rise, rendering the Minimum Wage meaningless, except for the Unions who demand increases to their pay.

During the Reagan years (1/81 - 1/89) wages FELL - they didn't rise. And the graphic clearly shows the split between INCOME - which is not necessarily related to work, and WAGES which are earned through work. INCOME stayed flat, while - let me point this out again - WAGES fell.
Quote:

IIRC at the end of the Reagan years, I did not know anybody who wasn't making more than the Minimum Wage - nobody even knew what the Min Wage was. And these were simple jobs after I moved States - restaurant and such.
You may not have thought you knew anybody making minimum wage, though there may have been people you assumed were making more than that. After all, I'm pretty sure you didn't go around asking everyone you knew how much they made. OTOH I KNEW many of my friends and acquaintances were making minimum wage, because we were all working the same classification of job at a public university, where the payscales are made public.

But looking at the graphic, you should be able to figure minimum wage prevalence out for yourself. I'm sure you agree that there were people making minimum wage before the golden Reagan period. But if wages FELL during that golden time, how could there be fewer people making minimum wage - or none, as you seem to think?

The problem is that you assume the Reagan period was better than it was.

The facts show otherwise.




Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Tuesday, April 25, 2017 11:06 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

The facts show otherwise.

Don’t get your hopes up that ideologues will change their tune. The pervasive myth that paying workers a living wage will make jobs disappear has been a go-to right-wing argument since the first 25 cents/hour minimum wage was set in 1938.

The National Employment Law Project analyzed 70 years of historical data and found no correlation between raised minimum wages and employment levels.

In 2014, more than 600 experts, including seven Nobel laureates, signed a letter stating that “the weight of evidence is now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market.”

For example: the unemployment rate in Seattle is at a near-record low of 2.9 percent. Weird, since we were told over and over again by corporate lobbyists and right-wing politicians that raising the minimum wage to $15 would lead to job losses across the board.

There is scant evidence to be had that Seattle’s higher minimum wage experiment has thus far been anything but a resounding success. Sadly, the ideological naysayers are hard-wired to deny fact-based data-driven evidence, but that's not surprising.

https://andrewtobias.com/the-minimum-wage-works/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 12:38 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Raising the minimum wage to $15 would almost immediately put my parents out of business.

One of the only reasons that I'm beginning to entertain the idea is that they are considering closing up shop and moving down south and I'm sure that it wouldn't happen until after they wouldn't be hurt by it.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 9:41 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Raising the minimum wage to $15 would almost immediately put my parents out of business.

One of the only reasons that I'm beginning to entertain the idea is that . . .

Entertain this:

I’m familiar with Senior’s In-Home Care. That company made all its employees into “contractors”. The company had, once upon a time, paid social security and medicare taxes and mileage between clients but that all ended once they converted over to using “contractors”.

To repeat, the “contractors” were the same-old employees. Once the company dumped the employee designation, it had also dumped all its other obligations. No tax withholding, no vacation days, no sick pay, no health insurance. The company even stopped paying anything to employees. Under the old scheme, the clients wrote one check to the company, then the company paid the employees. Under the new scheme, the clients wrote many different checks: one to the company and checks to each of the contractors who came to the house of the elderly client.

The contractors worked 11 hours, counting travel time between clients, but got paid for 8 hours, the actual time with the different clients they see everyday. Totalling up all the checks from all the different clients, the contractors were making $76 per day. Depending on whether you divide by 11 hours per day (the real number) or 8 hours (the nominal number used by the company) you get the hourly rate of either $6.91 or $9.50. Whichever number you pick, the contractors lived in poverty while doing an important job. But the company prospered!

As an extra way for the company to prosper, it charged $100 per week for employees, I mean “contractors”, to live in trailers. The crappy trailer that one employee lived in was appraised at $2,800 by www.hcad.org Utilities were paid by the “contractors”, not the company.

For the company, it is not as good as having slaves; it’s better! Nineteen century law required that slaves had to be looked after by the plantation once they were old, but in the Twenty-First century arrangement it is as good as if the company can shoot its slaves dead if they can’t work. And the company doesn’t have to waste a bullet, they just stop assigning clients to that particular contractor and what happens next to the contractor is not the company’s problem.

That is how the poorest paid employees are treated in Texas. If they can't work, they might as well be dead as far as their ex-employer cares. Throw the unemployed on the mercy of the government and relatives.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 1:33 PM

6STRINGJOKER


I get it Second. The last job I worked at for minimum wage for 3 years and they hadn't given anybody raises in the previous 8. I worked my ass off for them and the only "bonus" I ever got was a $25 gift card to the store for employee of the month, which they had the nerve to actually claim as a bonus and took taxes out for it.

My parents aren't a huge company though. They are a ma-and-pa furniture restoration shop. They aren't rich, and actually I think they should have been out of the business since the crash of 2007. Back in the day they had a nice boat and some other things, now they've pretty much lost everything and they're both past the retirement age and are lucky they're going to be getting social security because they're going to need every penny. If the minimum wage were raised more than double to $15/hr that would be an immediate closing of the store.

Now that it looks like they might be finally getting out of the game, I dont' have any personal reasons against raising the minimum wage. It is going to put a lot of people out of business though.

So go ahead and raise it. I'll hope for the best, but I won't be surprised if milk goes up to $6/gal shortly afterward.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 5:54 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I get it Second.

So go ahead and raise it. I'll hope for the best, but I won't be surprised if milk goes up to $6/gal shortly afterward.

Milk is not the best example, since it is a commodity with a price that doesn't depend much on what the minimum wage is. "Farmers in the U.S. are pouring out tens of millions of gallons of excess milk, amid a massive glut that has slashed prices and has filled warehouses with cheese. More than 43 million gallons’ worth of milk were dumped in fields, manure lagoons or animal feed, or have been lost on truck routes or discarded at plants in the first eight months of 2016, according to data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture."
www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-million-gallons-of
-excess-milk-1476284353


Instead of milk as an example, which depends mostly on the prices of feed and land and even beef (make hamburger meat from poorly producing milk cows), the cost of home care health worker is all about the minimum wage. And maybe the price of disposable rubber gloves.

A lot of rich people have Grandma looked after by somebody whose life is miserable away from their work at the minimum wage. The rich can afford the luxury provided by the poor person. That follows Say’s Other Law: “Misery is the inseparable companion of luxury”. The rich always prefer a bargain and if they can rearrange the US economy so that they buy luxury at a discount rate, too bad for the poor.
http://angrybearblog.com/2017/03/says-other-law-misery-is-the-insepara
ble-companion-of-luxury.html

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 6:19 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Jesus Christ...

Whatever second.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 7:28 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Jesus Christ...

Whatever second.

Just in case you are unaware: there are Republicans who want to lower the minimum wage. Zero sounds like a good number to them. Is zero good for you? Because it would be for me.
www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/minimum-wage-republican-lawmakers-quotes/
2015/04/07/id/636947
/
www.thoughtco.com/members-of-congress-abolish-minimum-wage-3367838

Does it strike you as odd that no Democratic politicians want to abolish the minimum wages? The Democrats can't believe the following argument:

"The apologists of luxury have sometimes gone so far as to promote the advantages of misery and indigence on the ground that without the stimulus of want, the lower classes of mankind could never be impelled to labour, so that neither the upper classes, nor society at large, could have the benefit of their exertions."

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
When the demand for the workforce (businesses, employers needing more workers) grows more than the supply of the workforce (unemployed, illegal, underpaid, and just lazy), then the pay rates will continue to rise, rendering the Minimum Wage meaningless, except for the Unions who demand increases to their pay.

During the Reagan years (1/81 - 1/89) wages FELL - they didn't rise. And the graphic clearly shows the split between INCOME - which is not necessarily related to work, and WAGES which are earned through work. INCOME stayed flat, while - let me point this out again - WAGES fell.


This is a fairly blatant lie. I'll get to this another time.
Income Revenue to the IRS practically doubled, IIRC during Reagan's terms. How can the collected Income Taxes double if the Incomes felL? That sounds quite preposterous, and it is such a claim.

After looking at the other posts, it seems this thread has derailed from the tracks of facts.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 9:44 PM

RIVERLOVE


I started at minimum wage of $1.65/hr. at a supermarket. Up to that point the only money I ever had was the $1 a week allowance my dad gave me every Friday. With this minimum wage job I was "rich". For the first time in my life I could buy anything I wanted. Of course the wheel had just been invented.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 9:44 PM

RIVERLOVE



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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 9:44 PM

RIVERLOVE



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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 11:00 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
During the Reagan years (1/81 - 1/89) wages FELL - they didn't rise. And the graphic clearly shows the split between INCOME - which is not necessarily related to work, and WAGES which are earned through work. INCOME stayed flat, while - let me point this out again - WAGES fell.

Quote:

Originally posted by jsf:
This is a fairly blatant lie. I'll get to this another time.
Income Revenue to the IRS practically doubled, IIRC during Reagan's terms. How can the collected Income Taxes double if the Incomes felL? That sounds quite preposterous, and it is such a claim.

After looking at the other posts, it seems this thread has derailed from the tracks of facts.

JSF

You didn't account for the fact that women entered the workforce to augment household finances.

INDIVIDUAL WAGES - dollars paid per hour per person - fell. AS PER THE CHART I already posted.

INDIVIDUAL WAGES FIGURES ARE AN INCONTROVERTIBLE FACT - despite your attempt to deny reality.

And you calling someone a liar for posting well-documented facts - speaks to your mindset.




Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Thursday, May 4, 2017 7:35 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


bump to remind me.

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Friday, May 5, 2017 7:34 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
You didn't account for the fact that women entered the workforce to augment household finances.



Maybe originally that is what happened, but in the grand scheme what actually happened was that the American labor pool doubled nearly overnight and reduced demand for labor greatly.

I'm not saying that women should stay in the kitchen and make babies. I'm just stating the harsh reality that I never hear anybody talking about. The amount of illegal Mexicans or H1B visas out there is a drop in the bucket compared to females entering the work force when it came to job competition.

What started as a way to augment finances has now become a necessity in most cases. I know some of you guys and gals run with more affluent circles than I ever did, but how many couples do you know that have a stay-at-home mom or dad situation where the kids aren't raised by strangers or constantly carted off to the different grandparents house or whoever has time to watch them? I only know one... and unforeseen medical expenses will mean that the other one will have to find at least part time work for a while to offset the huge increases they've seen in their family plan deductible because of the ACA.


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Friday, May 5, 2017 9:31 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
You didn't account for the fact that women entered the workforce to augment household finances.



Maybe originally that is what happened, but in the grand scheme what actually happened was that the American labor pool doubled nearly overnight and reduced demand for labor greatly.

I'm not saying that women should stay in the kitchen and make babies. I'm just stating the harsh reality that I never hear anybody talking about. The amount of illegal Mexicans or H1B visas out there is a drop in the bucket compared to females entering the work force when it came to job competition.

What started as a way to augment finances has now become a necessity in most cases. I know some of you guys and gals run with more affluent circles than I ever did . . .

Look at this graph. The article is about comparing the poorest 50% in China to the poorest in the USA, but pay attention to France on the graph.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/05/01/chinas-economic-miracle
-has-an-ugly-underbelly/?utm_term=.91a905122d4c


You will notice that the poorest 50% in France are not steadily losing to the richest 50%. I’d say that is because the poorest 50% in France are very willing to attack and destroy the richest 50% if the rich get too greedy. In the USA, the poorest 50% have taken the opposite strategy and are steadily getting ever more obsequious toward the wealthy. There is a nice little article explaining: “How Much Does a Politician Cost?” Can the poorest 50% of Americans stop themselves from voting most of the time for the candidate with the most money? I don’t think so.
https://theintercept.com/2017/05/04/how-much-does-a-politician-cost-a-
groundbreaking-study-reveals-the-influence-of-money-in-politics
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, May 5, 2017 10:26 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Interesting. Once again I'm baffled as to why you keep quoting things I've said before posting graphs that have nothing to do with anything I'm talking about though.

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Saturday, May 6, 2017 12:46 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, jack, there's one way I can think of to figure out if women in the workforce are the reason why in US that the workers get poorer and the rich get richer; while in France it's the other way around. Look at the labor force participation rates of the US and France.


A Cross-Country Comparison of Labor Force Participation

As of 2015 the US and France were within a couple of percent, in the range between 70 - 75% - they're pretty similar. So it's not total workers vying for jobs in the workforce that determines how people are paid. (Even more interesting, of all the countries, the US is the only one where the labor force participation rate has been going down since 1998. All the others are rising or staying flat - but that's a different topic).

And France had an even greater percentage of women in the workforce than the US, and rising. While the US's rate is far lower, and dropping.


If America Is Hell for Working Women, France Might Just Be Heaven

The employment problems in the US don't look to be about women in the workforce.




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:17 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The employment problems in the US don't look to be about women in the workforce.



I didn't say they were. It's a lot of factors. Do you really think that showing a graph about anything in France is a good indicator of what is happening in America? The most obvious reason why any comparison isnt' going to work is that they have a 35 hour work week in France and anything over that is considered overtime. In other European nations it's even lower.

This isn't even an argument about sex. It's strictly a numbers game.

For argument's sake, let's say that 50% of all working people in the country, regardless of sex, decided that they weren't going to work anymore starting tomorrow.

What do you think would happen?

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Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There are a lot of reasons for job loss in the USA, particularly competing in the world market against low-wage nations and automation and TPTB giving up entirely on manufacturing in order to focus in financialism.

There aren't enough good-paying jobs for people to progress into. My uncle (85 y/o) was telling me how "back in the day" you could get a job sweeping the shop floor at the autobody stamping plant (or the axle plant, or the assembly plant, or the Trico wiper-blade plant, or the steel mills) and work your way up to shift supervisor some day. Those days are long gone. If we're arguing about busboy and asswipe jobs, we already have a big problem: People are depending on these shit jobs because there's nothing else out there.

IMHO the United States needs to re-industrialize in all of the important categories* (from cement and metals to chips and fabrics and software) and be as independent as possible. Repair our infrastructure, restore our environment and prepare for climate change, and improve health care, education etc. When you have so many VITAL jobs that need doing, why is there unemployment???

This will require tariffs and sacrifice, and also that the very wealthy elite (who are primarily bankers and financiers) give up much of their ill-gotten wealth - which is of course why it's not going to happen. Focusing on minimum-wage jobs is IMHO just fighting over crumbs. The real problem is elsewhere.

* This isn't just a case of yoking our economic decision-making to our democratic processes, it's also a matter of robustness. Highly-efficient systems which depend on single points of production coupled with massive transportation and "just in time delivery" ( >>>lack of distributed stockpiles) can be - and have been -brought down by a single interruption.

Entities ... whether nations, states, or cities ... need to be able to subsist independently (at least in survival mode) for weeks; that means redundant distributed production closer to the point of use and stockpiled goods.


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Sunday, May 7, 2017 2:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The employment problems in the US don't look to be about women in the workforce.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I didn't say they were.

Then maybe you shouldn't have made such a point of it?
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm not saying that women should stay in the kitchen and make babies. I'm just stating the harsh reality that I never hear anybody talking about. The amount of illegal Mexicans or H1B visas out there is a drop in the bucket compared to females entering the work force when it came to job competition.

And that's where I cited two factors mentioned BY YOU when it came to job competition - total numbers in the workforce and women in the workforce. My point is that those two factors don't explain the dire job situation in the US, because those factors are the same or worse in France than in the US, while the French job situation is far better.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
It's a lot of factors.

Thanks for agreeing with me.
Quote:

Do you really think that showing a graph about anything in France is a good indicator of what is happening in America?
It's a good contrast, in order to figure out where the differences are if labor force participation and women in the workforce should make France worse than the US, not better.
Quote:

The most obvious reason why any comparison isn't' going to work is that they have a 35 hour work week in France and anything over that is considered overtime.
And that's one of the reasons WHY France and European nations are better than the US. Rather than allow businesses to create a Roman arena where individuals are pitted against each other for the necessities of life, France passed the 35 hour work week law specifically to improve workers lives.
Quote:

From wiki:
The main stated objectives of the law were twofold:
1. To reduce unemployment and yield a better division of labor, in a context where some people work long hours while some others are unemployed. A 10.2% decrease in the hours extracted from each worker would, theoretically, require firms to hire correspondingly more workers, a remedy for unemployment.
2. To take advantage of improvements in productivity of modern society to give workers some more personal time to enhance quality of life.

The government actually stepped in to represent the people it claims to represent. What a concept!
Quote:


This isn't even an argument about sex. It's strictly a numbers game.
For argument's sake, let's say that 50% of all working people in the country, regardless of sex, decided that they weren't going to work anymore starting tomorrow.
What do you think would happen?

Well then - aren't you agreeing with SECOND - that the problem is Americans, and our inability to stand up for ourselves?




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Sunday, May 7, 2017 5:35 PM

6STRINGJOKER


lol... You would basically be Second if you agreed on politics.

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Sunday, May 7, 2017 5:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
lol... You would basically be Second if you agreed on politics.

6ix

OK, go ahead. Duck the facts. Go straight to the personal attack.

It just makes you look like THUGGER.

ENJOY the new fashion!




Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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