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LA City Council to Delete Columbus Day because Columbus, is the "Robert E Lee" of Native Americans

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 00:05
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Thursday, August 24, 2017 11:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

L.A. council panel backs plan for a new city holiday: Indigenous Peoples Day

The fight over what to do with Columbus Day in Los Angeles is heading for a showdown at the City Council — one that has already exposed lingering wounds over race, oppression and national identity.

The council’s Rules, Elections, Intergovernmental Relations and Neighborhoods Committee unanimously endorsed a proposal this week to take Columbus Day off the city calendar and put in its place a new Indigenous Peoples Day.

The proposal, backed by Native American community leaders, would allow the city to acknowledge the contributions of “indigenous, aboriginal and native people” on the second Monday of October, currently a paid holiday for city workers. But it has drawn opposition from Italian American civic groups, who argue that their ancestors have also faced oppression — and turned to Columbus Day as a way to recognize their heritage.

The disagreement between those two camps played out during a lengthy Wednesday night hearing. No one in the room spoke against the creation of Indigenous Peoples Day. Instead, the debate focused mostly on a symbolic question: Who loses out if Columbus Day is replaced with a celebration of something else?

Councilman Mitch O’Farrell, a member of the Wyandotte Nation originally from Oklahoma, said the change in holidays would provide a form of “restorative justice” to Native Americans. Replacing Columbus Day, he said, would provide a public acknowledgment that Christopher Columbus’ arrival in the 15th century set in motion the subjugation, enslavement and genocide of indigenous peoples across the Western Hemisphere.

“It’s a really devastating history,” he said. “It was almost immediate subjugation and slavery.”

Councilman Joe Buscaino, a first-generation Italian American from San Pedro, promised to fight O’Farrell’s proposal when it reaches the council — and said this week’s committee vote made him “embarrassed” to be a council member.

Buscaino has offered a counter-proposal to rename Columbus Day in the city’s administrative code as Immigrant Heritage Day. He argued that O’Farrell’s proposal would needlessly divide Angelenos at a time when inclusiveness is needed.

“I strongly support an Indigenous Peoples Day in the city of Los Angeles, but not at the expense of another culture or group of people,” said the councilman, whose port district has a significant number of Italian American residents.

“To me, I feel like it’s removing Martin Luther King Day out of our books … or removing Cesar Chavez Day,” he said.

Council President Herb Wesson, who heads the rules committee, spent much of this week’s meeting trying to find a solution where neither side would feel left out. He eventually acknowledged such a goal was not possible.

“There will be some people that will be unhappy,” he said.

Los Angeles provides its employees with 12 paid holidays a year, and the most recently added is Cesar Chavez Day, established in 2002. That year, city lawmakers considered replacing Columbus Day, which has been a federal holiday since the Great Depression, with Cesar Chavez Day. The council soon faced a backlash from Italian Americans, who called the proposal racist, and both holidays were allowed to coexist.

If O’Farrell’s proposal is approved by the council later this year, it would go into effect no later than 2019. Columbus Day would remain a national holiday.

Several U.S. cities, including Seattle, Portland, Albuquerque and Denver, have already replaced Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples Day. Los Angeles has been discussing the idea for nearly two years.

Buscaino suggested that Indigenous Peoples Day could be held in August or September. So far, three council members — David Ryu, Gil Cedillo and Mitch Englander — have signed on to his plan for Immigrant Heritage Day, arguing that Columbus Day is not so much about the Italian explorer as the fight for recognition by Italians and other immigrants.

Ann Potenza, president of Federated Italo-Americans of Southern California, told council members that Italians who came to the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries also confronted slurs and injustices. Columbus Day, she said, let them know that “it’s OK to come from another country, and the things that you contributed here are important.”

Potenza said she favors the idea of holding an Indigenous Peoples Day — but not on the day currently reserved for Columbus Day. She said she prefers Buscaino’s alternative proposal.

The council’s rules committee proposed having Oct. 12 declared as an Italian American heritage day in Los Angeles — but not as a city holiday. The panel also asked city officials to look into the possibility of creating a city holiday that would commemorate immigrants, diversity or possibly the concept of America.

Councilman Marqueece Harris-Dawson, who serves on the committee, pointed out that an Immigrant Heritage Day would exclude two groups: African Americans and Native Americans. He and Wesson worried aloud that backers of President Trump would use the replacement of Columbus Day in Los Angeles to publicly sow divisions between different groups.

“It just destroys me, like somebody shooting gasoline in my veins, to give this administration anything else they can use to make people think it’s OK to look at us as if we don’t belong here,” Wesson said.

O’Farrell, for his part, compared his proposal to the recent removal of statues in parts of the South that recognize the Confederacy. Backers of O’Farrell’s proposal said Columbus’ activities in the Caribbean, including his enslavement of Native Americans, should not be sanitized.

“We need this recognition,” said Whittier resident Patricia Lopez, who serves on the Los Angeles City/County Native American Indian Commission. “We need this day to heal.”

Rudy Ortega Jr., tribal president of the Fernandeño Tataviam Band of Mission Indians, said Native Americans have experienced numerous defeats, losing land, their water rights and much more. Passage of O’Farrell’s proposal, he said, would allow the city’s indigenous people to stand proud.

“We want one little victory,” he said.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-indigenous-peoples-holiday
-20170615-story.html


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Thursday, August 24, 2017 12:03 PM

BRENDA


Good for LA for pushing for getting rid of Columbus Day.

I've been wanting to see that "holiday" gone for a while and I have to admit that as a child I didn't understand why you celebrated someone who was the original destroyer of many Natives and helped to bring such troubles to our shores.

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Thursday, August 24, 2017 1:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.


-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Thursday, August 24, 2017 2:30 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

L.A. council panel backs plan for a new city holiday: Indigenous Peoples Day

The fight over what to do with Columbus Day in Los Angeles is heading for a showdown at the City Council — one that has already exposed lingering wounds over race, oppression and national identity.

The council’s Rules, Elections, Intergovernmental Relations and Neighborhoods Committee unanimously endorsed a proposal this week to take Columbus Day off the city calendar and put in its place a new Indigenous Peoples Day.

The proposal, backed by Native American community leaders, would allow the city to acknowledge the contributions of “indigenous, aboriginal and native people” on the second Monday of October, currently a paid holiday for city workers. But it has drawn opposition from Italian American civic groups, who argue that their ancestors have also faced oppression — and turned to Columbus Day as a way to recognize their heritage.

The disagreement between those two camps played out during a lengthy Wednesday night hearing. No one in the room spoke against the creation of Indigenous Peoples Day. Instead, the debate focused mostly on a symbolic question: Who loses out if Columbus Day is replaced with a celebration of something else?

Councilman Mitch O’Farrell, a member of the Wyandotte Nation originally from Oklahoma, said the change in holidays would provide a form of “restorative justice” to Native Americans. Replacing Columbus Day, he said, would provide a public acknowledgment that Christopher Columbus’ arrival in the 15th century set in motion the subjugation, enslavement and genocide of indigenous peoples across the Western Hemisphere.

“It’s a really devastating history,” he said. “It was almost immediate subjugation and slavery.”

Councilman Joe Buscaino, a first-generation Italian American from San Pedro, promised to fight O’Farrell’s proposal when it reaches the council — and said this week’s committee vote made him “embarrassed” to be a council member.

Buscaino has offered a counter-proposal to rename Columbus Day in the city’s administrative code as Immigrant Heritage Day. He argued that O’Farrell’s proposal would needlessly divide Angelenos at a time when inclusiveness is needed.

“I strongly support an Indigenous Peoples Day in the city of Los Angeles, but not at the expense of another culture or group of people,” said the councilman, whose port district has a significant number of Italian American residents.

“To me, I feel like it’s removing Martin Luther King Day out of our books … or removing Cesar Chavez Day,” he said.

Council President Herb Wesson, who heads the rules committee, spent much of this week’s meeting trying to find a solution where neither side would feel left out. He eventually acknowledged such a goal was not possible.

“There will be some people that will be unhappy,” he said.

Los Angeles provides its employees with 12 paid holidays a year, and the most recently added is Cesar Chavez Day, established in 2002. That year, city lawmakers considered replacing Columbus Day, which has been a federal holiday since the Great Depression, with Cesar Chavez Day. The council soon faced a backlash from Italian Americans, who called the proposal racist, and both holidays were allowed to coexist.

If O’Farrell’s proposal is approved by the council later this year, it would go into effect no later than 2019. Columbus Day would remain a national holiday.

Several U.S. cities, including Seattle, Portland, Albuquerque and Denver, have already replaced Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples Day. Los Angeles has been discussing the idea for nearly two years.

Buscaino suggested that Indigenous Peoples Day could be held in August or September. So far, three council members — David Ryu, Gil Cedillo and Mitch Englander — have signed on to his plan for Immigrant Heritage Day, arguing that Columbus Day is not so much about the Italian explorer as the fight for recognition by Italians and other immigrants.

Ann Potenza, president of Federated Italo-Americans of Southern California, told council members that Italians who came to the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries also confronted slurs and injustices. Columbus Day, she said, let them know that “it’s OK to come from another country, and the things that you contributed here are important.”

Potenza said she favors the idea of holding an Indigenous Peoples Day — but not on the day currently reserved for Columbus Day. She said she prefers Buscaino’s alternative proposal.

The council’s rules committee proposed having Oct. 12 declared as an Italian American heritage day in Los Angeles — but not as a city holiday. The panel also asked city officials to look into the possibility of creating a city holiday that would commemorate immigrants, diversity or possibly the concept of America.

Councilman Marqueece Harris-Dawson, who serves on the committee, pointed out that an Immigrant Heritage Day would exclude two groups: African Americans and Native Americans. He and Wesson worried aloud that backers of President Trump would use the replacement of Columbus Day in Los Angeles to publicly sow divisions between different groups.

“It just destroys me, like somebody shooting gasoline in my veins, to give this administration anything else they can use to make people think it’s OK to look at us as if we don’t belong here,” Wesson said.

O’Farrell, for his part, compared his proposal to the recent removal of statues in parts of the South that recognize the Confederacy. Backers of O’Farrell’s proposal said Columbus’ activities in the Caribbean, including his enslavement of Native Americans, should not be sanitized.

“We need this recognition,” said Whittier resident Patricia Lopez, who serves on the Los Angeles City/County Native American Indian Commission. “We need this day to heal.”

Rudy Ortega Jr., tribal president of the Fernandeño Tataviam Band of Mission Indians, said Native Americans have experienced numerous defeats, losing land, their water rights and much more. Passage of O’Farrell’s proposal, he said, would allow the city’s indigenous people to stand proud.

“We want one little victory,” he said.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-indigenous-peoples-holiday
-20170615-story.html


and this is the Committee in charge of Elections.

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Thursday, August 24, 2017 2:35 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.

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Saturday, August 26, 2017 10:23 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.




I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.

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Saturday, August 26, 2017 10:27 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.


-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581



The French were just as guilty of using the Natives in their wars with the British.

As I've said in another thread the major difference is that the French were better at keeping their agreements with the Natives.

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Saturday, August 26, 2017 11:19 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.


I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.

maybe I should have included "without human sacrifices"

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:31 AM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.




I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.

maybe I should have included "without human sacrifices"




Then by your logic Rome is not worthy of the title of "great" as regard to civilization as it practised human sacrifice.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:43 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.
preserved because it's a great example of ridiculousness




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 9:43 AM

REAVERFAN


"The miserable truth is that those first encounters on the Indian side quickly led to last encounters. The Indians of the Caribbean were destroyed within two generations by the Spanish discoverers. Not one of them was converted to the Catholic faith, which was supposedly a prime motive of those voyages. They died when they were hanged, in rows of 13, ''in honor of the Redeemer and His twelve Apostles,'' according to the original Spanish documents.

They had their hands cut off when they did not bring in their quarterly quota of gold dust. Their chiefs were roasted on fires of green wood. When their cries kept the Spaniards awake, they were silenced with wooden slats put over their tongues. Ten years after the first landing, the miserable native survivors started killing themselves by eating poisoned roots.

Yes, Christopher Columbus was the first European to sail to America in recorded history. But Columbus set into motion a sequence of greed, cruelty, slavery and genocide that, even in the bloody history of mankind, has few parallels. He organized an extermination of native Americans. He was also as mean, cruel and greedy in small matters as he was in vast ones."

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/14/opinion/don-t-celebrate-1492-mourn-i
t.html?mcubz=0


No surprise you Nazi types would support another genocidal tyrant. Columbus day is a joke.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 12:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Native Americans also died of epidemic diseases, imported from the Old World.

There are some cases where the British deliberately used germ warfare, giving away blankest infected with smallpox, to reduce their ability to defend themselves.
http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/spring04/warfare.cfm



-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, August 27, 2017 12:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


So BRENDA, given all of the crimes that were committed by the Old World settlers against the New World natives, what should the appropriate establishment cultural response be?

-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.


I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.

maybe I should have included "without human sacrifices"


Then by your logic Rome is not worthy of the title of "great" as regard to civilization as it practised human sacrifice.

are you referring to Gladiators? Or another Pagan ritual?
Gladiator Sports declined around 400 AD after Rome government converted to Christianity.

Are you arguing that Pagan Rome was great civilization? Or another Pagan society was great civilization?

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:02 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.


I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.


I was under the impression the Incan Civil War decimated the Pacific Andeans, but I forget how much interaction they had with the invaders by that point.

Did you have a particular part of the Mayan assimilation that you considered a great civilization?

My current perspective of civilization is from the American Liberty, Freedom, Life triumvirate because the above referenced Washington and FFs, not the background of Columbus, Spanish, Inquisition.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:09 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Native Americans also died of epidemic diseases, imported from the Old World.

There are some cases where the British deliberately used germ warfare, giving away blankest infected with smallpox, to reduce their ability to defend themselves.
http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/spring04/warfare.cfm



-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581



And the US government encouraged the decimation of the buffalo to help drive us onto reservations.

Royalty paid the US government to come over and be allowed to trophy hunt the buffalo from trains. They would take the hides and sometimes the heads and leave the meat to rot in the plains sun.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:15 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So BRENDA, given all of the crimes that were committed by the Old World settlers against the New World natives, what should the appropriate establishment cultural response be?

-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581



Doing away with Columbus day would be a good start in the US. We don't have that in Canada.

How about instituting a National day for all tribes that has been suggested. We could do it in Canada as well.

Or like your Presidents Day, a Chiefs Day for all or pick one. Geronimo, Cochise, Tecumseh. My distant aunt as she was with Lewis and Clark. Sacajawea.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Native Americans also died of epidemic diseases, imported from the Old World.

There are some cases where the British deliberately used germ warfare, giving away blankest infected with smallpox, to reduce their ability to defend themselves.


And the US government allowed the decimation of the buffalo to help drive us onto reservations.

Royalty paid the US government to come over and be allowed to trophy hunt the buffalo from trains. They would take the hides and sometimes the heads and leave the meat to rot in the plains sun.

perhaps I've been unclear. I don't disagree that the Jacksonian Democrats - which you generalize as US Government - treated Native Americans unfairly.

ED: deleted Brenda's history link for vbb syntax.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:19 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So BRENDA, given all of the crimes that were committed by the Old World settlers against the New World natives, what should the appropriate establishment cultural response be?


Doing away with Columbus day would be a good start in the US. We don't have that in Canada.

How about instituting a National day for all tribes that has been suggested. We could do it in Canada as well.

Or like your Presidents Day, a Chiefs Day for all or pick one. Geronimo, Cochise, Tecumseh. My distant aunt as she was with Lewis and Clark. Sacajawea.

does Canada have Leif Eriksson Day?

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:19 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.


I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.

maybe I should have included "without human sacrifices"


Then by your logic Rome is not worthy of the title of "great" as regard to civilization as it practised human sacrifice.

are you referring to Gladiators? Or another Pagan ritual?
Gladiator Sports declined around 400 AD after Rome government converted to Christianity.

Are you arguing that Pagan Rome was great civilization? Or another Pagan society was great civilization?



Are you saying that Pagan Rome didn't contribute something to Western civilization as we know it today?

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:21 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So BRENDA, given all of the crimes that were committed by the Old World settlers against the New World natives, what should the appropriate establishment cultural response be?


Doing away with Columbus day would be a good start in the US. We don't have that in Canada.

How about instituting a National day for all tribes that has been suggested. We could do it in Canada as well.

Or like your Presidents Day, a Chiefs Day for all or pick one. Geronimo, Cochise, Tecumseh. My distant aunt as she was with Lewis and Clark. Sacajawea.

does Canada have Leif Eriksson Day?



Only in Saskatchewan.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:25 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.


I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.


I was under the impression the Incan Civil War decimated the Pacific Andeans, but I forget how much interaction they had with the invaders by that point.

Did you have a particular part of the Mayan assimilation that you considered a great civilization?

My current perspective of civilization is from the American Liberty, Freedom, Life triumvirate because the above referenced Washington and FFs, not the background of Columbus, Spanish, Inquisition.



As a student of Archaeology, I definition of civilization is a little broader. I start with Ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians and China then move to South American and up into North American.

And since I am part American Indian, I will try to the best of my ability to defend all Natives in my part of the world. North and South.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:26 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Native Americans also died of epidemic diseases, imported from the Old World.

There are some cases where the British deliberately used germ warfare, giving away blankest infected with smallpox, to reduce their ability to defend themselves.
http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/spring04/warfare.cfm


And the US government allowed the decimation of the buffalo to help drive us onto reservations.

Royalty paid the US government to come over and be allowed to trophy hunt the buffalo from trains. They would take the hides and sometimes the heads and leave the meat to rot in the plains sun.

perhaps I've been unclear. I don't disagree that the Jacksonian Democrats - which you generalize as US Government - treated Native Americans unfairly.



Last time I looked at US history Jackson had been one of your Presidents and the decimation of the American Indian happened over several different administrations. Custer happened under Grant's watch.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.


JSF: Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.


I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.

maybe I should have included "without human sacrifices"


Then by your logic Rome is not worthy of the title of "great" as regard to civilization as it practised human sacrifice.

are you referring to Gladiators? Or another Pagan ritual?
Gladiator Sports declined around 400 AD after Rome government converted to Christianity.

Are you arguing that Pagan Rome was great civilization? Or another Pagan society was great civilization?


Are you saying that Pagan Rome didn't contribute something to Western civilization as we know it today?

I was thinking Pagans were less contributory than non-Pagans, outside of Religion. IIRC Pagan Rome was less contributory than Greeks.

But if you're conjuring that all Pagan Civilizations were contributory, then it follows that all societies were equal, unless you are defining by population size.

I might not be offended by Druid Day. Rapa Nui Day.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:57 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Native Americans also died of epidemic diseases, imported from the Old World.

There are some cases where the British deliberately used germ warfare, giving away blankest infected with smallpox, to reduce their ability to defend themselves.


And the US government allowed the decimation of the buffalo to help drive us onto reservations.

Royalty paid the US government to come over and be allowed to trophy hunt the buffalo from trains. They would take the hides and sometimes the heads and leave the meat to rot in the plains sun.

perhaps I've been unclear. I don't disagree that the Jacksonian Democrats - which you generalize as US Government - treated Native Americans unfairly.


Last time I looked at US history Jackson had been one of your Presidents and the decimation of the American Indian happened over several different administrations. Custer happened under Grant's watch.

the Anti-Indian efforts were driven by Jackson's philosophy and it's followers, known as Jacksonians. The initial formative policies and practices were much more important in determining efforts and attitudes than those decades later who had been born under these policies.

Grant was after Fillmore, who did restore and reverse some injustices.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:11 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, there IS a problem with the whole "Columbus discovered America" concept, when clearly America was "discovered" by the people who were already here.

But we can put George Washington and many of the early Funding (I meant FOUNDING) Fathers in the same basket, because their interest in independence was fueled by land speculation and expansionism, which the British tried to limit for the sake of peace with "the natives" who were helping them fight the French.

Perhaps "civilization discovered America" would be more palatable. Non-nomadic, less genocidal, with written language and reliable translation.


I can't agree with that JSF because your phrase disrespects the Aztec, Inca and Maya who were great civilizations when Columbus arrived.


I was under the impression the Incan Civil War decimated the Pacific Andeans, but I forget how much interaction they had with the invaders by that point.

Did you have a particular part of the Mayan assimilation that you considered a great civilization?

My current perspective of civilization is from the American Liberty, Freedom, Life triumvirate because the above referenced Washington and FFs, not the background of Columbus, Spanish, Inquisition.


As a student of Archaeology, I definition of civilization is a little broader. I start with Ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians and China then move to South American and up into North American.

And since I am part American Indian, I will try to the best of my ability to defend all Natives in my part of the world. North and South.

I had a cerebral separation between Pagans or societies prior to 500AD and civilizations post-1000AD. They seemed to be too intellectually or philosophically different in advancement.

Now I can blend my view to understand you.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:30 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Brenda, I'm curious about your perspective here.
If the term Savages is used, how do you define that? What do you use to differentiate from that description?

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 4:32 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Brenda, I'm curious about your perspective here.
If the term Savages is used, how do you define that? What do you use to differentiate from that description?



A "savage" to me is someone who has no clear thinking. No linear thinking, can't see all the sides.
And I'd like to add that I have never liked the word "savage" especially when in reference to all of this side of the world's natives.

I'll put the word in quotations. I use tribal names or Native American, American Indian or First Nations. Metis.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 4:39 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Then by your logic Rome is not worthy of the title of "great" as regard to civilization as it practised human sacrifice.

are you referring to Gladiators? Or another Pagan ritual?
Gladiator Sports declined around 400 AD after Rome government converted to Christianity.

Are you arguing that Pagan Rome was great civilization? Or another Pagan society was great civilization?


Are you saying that Pagan Rome didn't contribute something to Western civilization as we know it today?

I was thinking Pagans were less contributory than non-Pagans, outside of Religion. IIRC Pagan Rome was less contributory than Greeks.

But if you're conjuring that all Pagan Civilizations were contributory, then it follows that all societies were equal, unless you are defining by population size.

I might not be offended by Druid Day. Rapa Nui Day.



I am not defining by population size. I am defining by what they contributed to civilization as a whole.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 6:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

I am not defining by population size. I am defining by what they contributed to civilization as a whole.
You must mean to WESTERN civilization. Because the Chinese civilization is the longest-lived continuous one on the planet today. But I don't think you can call them 'savages' as opposed to 'civilized' just because they didn't contribute much to OUR civilization.

And then, who's to say WE weren't the savages - wiping out many civilizations along with whatever contributions they COULD have made.

Also, your definition of linear thinking is not grounded in neurology. Even the most 'savage' of 'savages' probably has a better grasp of cause and effect, and less magical thinking than we do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to survive the environment with all its very demanding cause-and-effect particular requirements. We, otoh, understand that if we flip a light switch, the light comes on. But do we know enough to build a generator, wiring, bulb, and switch? If not, it's magic to us, and not linear at all.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 7:07 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

I am not defining by population size. I am defining by what they contributed to civilization as a whole.
You must mean to WESTERN civilization. Because the Chinese civilization is the longest-lived continuous one on the planet today. But I don't think you can call them 'savages' just because they didn't contribute much to OUR civilization.

And then, who's to say WE weren't the savages - wiping out many civilizations along with whatever contributions they COULD have made.

And, btw, your definition of linear thinking is peculiar to say the least, and not grounded in neurology. Even the most 'savage' of 'savages' probably has a better grasp of cause and effect, and less magical thinking than you do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to survive the environment with all its very demanding cause-and-effect particular requirements. You, otoh, understand that if you flip a light switch, the light comes on. But do you know enough to build a generator, wiring, bulb, and switch? If not, it's magic to you, and not linear at all.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.



Yes, I did mean WESTERN civilization. No, I wouldn't call the Chinese savages and it was JSF who used the word savage not me, Kiki.

I've often felt that Westerners were savages for what has been done.

Never claimed to know a lot about neurology.

And yes, I know that buy flipping a switch a light bulb will come on and I do understand how electricity and wiring works. But no I do not have the KNOWLEDGE to build a generator.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 7:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

I am not defining by population size. I am defining by what they contributed to civilization as a whole.
You must mean to WESTERN civilization. Because the Chinese civilization is the longest-lived continuous one on the planet today. But I don't think you can call them 'savages' just because they didn't contribute much to OUR civilization.

And then, who's to say WE weren't the savages - wiping out many civilizations along with whatever contributions they COULD have made.


Yes, I did mean WESTERN civilization. No, I wouldn't call the Chinese savages and it was JSF who used the word savage not me, Kiki.

I've often felt that Westerners were savages for what has been done.

that is what I was wondering about.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 7:20 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Sorry, I amended my post to not call out YOU specifically, since it's a common characteristic of modern man. I came to the realization that the same lack of understanding that causes a Muslim to believe a dictum from the 6th century even when they are called to prayer by a cellphone alarm; is the exact same lack of understanding that causes people in the US to claim a boy was cursed by the devil for crying tears of blood even when they heard about the story on TV and drove their cars to the local pub to talk about it. Our technologies seem to be magical and don't make a dent in some extremely non-linear thinking.

But I did want to point out that the greatest contributions to human civilization: language, fire, bowls, tools (wood, bone, and stone, through bronze tools), the baby sling, rafts, clothing, herding, housing, farming, food storage (including cheese making, brewing and crude granaries), and so on, were contributed by so-called savages - in fact, some contributions were by creatures we only partially recognize as human.

Some include the ability to invent and believe myths as a way of binding large numbers of people together.

And when it comes to written language, we date it as far back as 3,300 bce - and yet, the Sumerians while advancing 'civilization' a great deal. contributed very little directly to western civilization.

I guess I find the division of 'civilized' v 'uncivilized' by how much they directly contributed to our current society very confusing.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:53 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Sorry, I amended my post to not call out YOU specifically, since it's a common characteristic of modern man. I came to the realization that the same lack of understanding that causes a Muslim to believe a dictum from the 6th century even when they are called to prayer by a cellphone alarm; is the exact same lack of understanding that causes people in the US to claim a boy was cursed by the devil for crying tears of blood even when they heard about the story on TV and drove their cars to the local pub to talk about it. Our technologies seem to be magical and don't make a dent in some extremely non-linear thinking.

But I did want to point out that the greatest contributions to human civilization: language, fire, bowls, tools (wood, bone, and stone, through bronze tools), the baby sling, rafts, clothing, herding, housing, farming, food storage (including cheese making, brewing and crude granaries), and so on, were contributed by so-called savages - in fact, some contributions were by creatures we only partially recognize as human.

Some include the ability to invent and believe myths as a way of binding large numbers of people together.

And when it comes to written language, we date it as far back as 3,300 bce - and yet, the Sumerians while advancing 'civilization' a great deal. contributed very little directly to western civilization.

I guess I find the division of 'civilized' v 'uncivilized' by how much they directly contributed to our current society very confusing.

do you consider Bushido civilized?

Human sacrifice?

Slavery?

Mass genocide?


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Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You would not have found Rome to be very civilized. Their values were vastly different from ours - they were more in tune with the Greeks, who held 'to the death' competitions which they considered 'games', against men and animals, as part of the ethic of 'a worthy man is one who struggles courageously against fate'. And yet you put the Greeks - and even the Romans - in the pantheon of 'civilizations'. (IIRC Pagan Rome was less contributory than Greeks.)


So I find these posts to be uninterpretable. There seems to be some confusion between being 'civilized' in the polite British phraseology (do you consider Bushido civilized - I imagine a British dowager putting her nose up in the air and sniffing 'how uncivilized!), and 'a civilization' in the archaeological sense, as in the Japanese civilization. There seems to be some circular logic - we are civilized because we came from a civilized culture, and any culture that contributed directly to ours is therefore civilized. There seems to be some misunderstanding about the kinds of thinking that 'civilized' v 'uncivilized' people can engage in.

Do I think bushido is 'civilized', in the meaning of being acceptable in polite western society today? No. But do I think the Japanese had and have an enduring high-functioning civilization? Yes.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 8:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


I guess, when trying to understand the meaning of a word, one could go back to a dictionary and look at its origin: Civilization, from civil from civic, from Latin civicus, from civis citizen — more at city

Civilizations built cities. Of course, we can have a problem defining a "city" but clearly its a collection of people greater than the "monkeysphere" of most people (100 - 120).

That more or less eliminates the discussion of whether or not a "civilization" was in direct lineage to/ contributed to today's western societies.

-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Monday, August 28, 2017 8:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Hi BRENDA, I think this got lost in the shuffle:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So BRENDA, given all of the crimes that were committed by the Old World settlers against the New World natives, what should the appropriate establishment cultural response be?



-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Monday, August 28, 2017 2:30 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I think this was Brenda's reply. Posted 14:15 EDT yesterday.

Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So BRENDA, given all of the crimes that were committed by the Old World settlers against the New World natives, what should the appropriate establishment cultural response be?


Doing away with Columbus day would be a good start in the US. We don't have that in Canada.

How about instituting a National day for all tribes that has been suggested. We could do it in Canada as well.

Or like your Presidents Day, a Chiefs Day for all or pick one. Geronimo, Cochise, Tecumseh. My distant aunt as she was with Lewis and Clark. Sacajawea.


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Monday, August 28, 2017 2:42 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess, when trying to understand the meaning of a word, one could go back to a dictionary and look at its origin: Civilization, from civil from civic, from Latin civicus, from civis citizen — more at city

Civilizations built cities. Of course, we can have a problem defining a "city" but clearly its a collection of people greater than the "monkeysphere" of most people (100 - 120).

That more or less eliminates the discussion of whether or not a "civilization" was in direct lineage to/ contributed to today's western societies.

I was delving into what the perception was, to jump onto the same page more readily instead of looking for disagreement.

So then, outside of Incas, Aztecs, and the Mayan conglomeration, where there any other Native Americans which created cities? In North America?
My assumption is that cities were not nomadic, which point was earlier called "ridiculous"

It would seem whole Tribes and Nations would be excluded from this definition of civilization. If a Dictionary existed from the Native American perspective, I wonder how "civilization" would be defined. They probably had no concept of the size of the worldwide population of White Man.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 3:00 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And then, who's to say WE weren't the savages - wiping out many civilizations along with whatever contributions they COULD have made.

this was the point of the question I asked Brenda
Quote:


Also, your definition of linear thinking is not grounded in neurology. Even the most 'savage' of 'savages' probably has a better grasp of cause and effect, and less magical thinking than we do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to survive the environment with all its very demanding cause-and-effect particular requirements. We, otoh, understand that if we flip a light switch, the light comes on. But do we know enough to build a generator, wiring, bulb, and switch? If not, it's magic to us, and not linear at all.

Perhaps this is the magical thinking which cannot predict a few days in advance a deluge of 18 inches of rain, but knows for a fact that the oceans will rise a centimeter a hundred years in the future.
And that the most reasonable, unbiased, scientifically valid place to locate official temperature sensors is amidst jet exhaust at each city's airport, so that increases in air travel can affect records in an obviously false direction. And use as "proof" of Global Warming.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 3:00 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

where there any other Native Americans which created cities?


If a 'city' is a permanent residential area with more than a 'monkey-sphere' of individuals, then yes, there were Indian cities. The problem was most were built out of wood and weren't preserved long enough to be recognized by western science or history. Cahokia and Etzanoa are rare examples of wood-structured cities that were discovered. But there are many remnants of ancient adobe and stone cities still preserved in the desert southwest, the most famous being the Anasazi cliff dwellings.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 3:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Perhaps this is the magical thinking which cannot predict a few days in advance a deluge of 18 inches of rain, but knows for a fact that the oceans will rise a centimeter a hundred years in the future.
And that the most reasonable, unbiased, scientifically valid place to locate official temperature readings is amidst jet exhaust at each city's airport, so that increases in air travel can affect records in an obviously false direction.

Well ... jet exhaust isn't a direct contributor to local temperatures, and for obvious reasons most airports are located far away from the most populated city areas. And - I want to also point out that if the local environment stays the same, which it does for airports - then the local conditions set a constant baseline that washes out when seeing year-on-year and decade-on-decade rising temperatures.

I was thinking specifically of how people treat the technology all around them AS IF it's part of the natural environment - not understood and irrelevant to their development of scientific understanding and critical thinking skills.

It's how people can maintain millennial-old beliefs (and believe in the devil, for example) in the face of a modern life literally surrounded on all sides by vast quantities of well-explained technology. The everyday environment based on the fruits of rational thought has no bearing on their voodoo beliefs.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 3:33 PM

RIVERLOVE


The Sopranos already had this debate 15 years ago.



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Monday, August 28, 2017 3:38 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Perhaps this is the magical thinking which cannot predict a few days in advance a deluge of 18 inches of rain, but knows for a fact that the oceans will rise a centimeter a hundred years in the future.
And that the most reasonable, unbiased, scientifically valid place to locate official temperature sensors is amidst jet exhaust at each city's airport, so that increases in air travel can affect records in an obviously false direction.

Well ... jet exhaust isn't a direct contributor to local temperatures

as defined by sensors placed amidst that exact jet exhaust?? Really? Placement of the sensor for the OFFICIAL LOCAL TEMPERATURE at the city's AIRPORT will not allow for warped readings resulting from the jet exhaust? Seriously?
Do you feel that jet exhaust is more prevalent in City Parks, or downtown, or golf courses (all places where the OFFICIAL LOCAL TEMPERATURE is NOT recorded) than at the Airport (where the OFFICIAL LOCAL TEMPERATURE is required to be recorded)??
You really, really, really believe that that is the most reasonable, sensible, rational belief to have? Think about it, seriously. The suspension of disbelief for your religion of Global Warming is in need of Herculean Suspension Cables.
Quote:

, and for obvious reasons most airports are located far away from the most populated city areas. And - I want to also point out that if the local environment stays the same, which it does for airports
do you mean there has been NO CHANGE in air travel volume in the past 8 decades?? That mankind has flown the same number of flights per day at every single airport since Judge Patterson ruled in the Wright trial?
Quote:

- then the local conditions set a constant baseline that washes out when seeing year-on-year and decade-on-decade rising temperatures.

come on. Get real. Return to Earth. Or to the non-magical thinking civilization.

Many people likely do not know that 90% of the expended fuel on a flight is used at the airport, during takeoff and landing. Which also means that the vast majority of jet exhaust is also left at the airport, and not in the sky. So placing the OFFICIAL LOCAL TEMPERATURE sensor at the city airport is an excellent way to obtain fraudulent data to prove falsehoods like Global Warming.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 3:41 PM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
The Sopranos already had this debate 15 years ago.



Great fuggin' show. Everyone's aggrieved and everyone's got a beef!

==============================

By the way, SIGHEIL, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... Let's test your honesty and powers of observation. My guess is you will conveniently leave some people out and also mistakenly *cough* lie *cough* about others. Do make sure you include how you hate Liberals and Democrats..*

And voila! Here it is: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61855&p=6

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Monday, August 28, 2017 3:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

as defined by sensors placed amidst that exact jet exhaust??
Yanno, I'm tired of trying to be reasonable with you. When you get some kind of linked valid data to back up your crazy-talk - which you won't, I guarantee it - we can have a discussion. Till then, I won't be replying to your unsupported and completely idiotic rants.

Meanwhile, chew on this and at least educate yourself the smallest bit. http://www.ofcm.gov/publications/fmh/siting/FCM-s4-1994update.pdf




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 4:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

as defined by sensors placed amidst that exact jet exhaust??
Yanno, I'm tired of trying to be reasonable with you. When you get some kind of linked valid data to back up your crazy-talk - which you won't, I guarantee it - we can have a discussion. Till then, I won't be replying to your unsupported and completely idiotic rants.

Meanwhile, chew on this and at least educate yourself the smallest bit. http://www.ofcm.gov/publications/fmh/siting/FCM-s4-1994update.pdf

was there some portion of this document that you felt pertinent? It looks much the same as standards of the airport equipment I worked on. Although I have not compared this 1994 revision directly.

Are you using documents for locating sensors at airports as proof that sensors are not located at airports?

That's just crazy talk.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 5:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


No, and thanks for the troll, troll. BTW, what WERE you doing at the airport - janitor? Did your 'work on' equipment consist of dusting?

And try READING the document. Assuming you can read, of course.

And I need to ask - do you ever - and I mean EVER - try to look anything up on a topic before you post your usual idiocy? Yanno, maybe a google search on weather station siting requirements at airports ... and then at least scan 4 or 5 links - or even one? Or do you just spew bullshit because you like to?

Goodbye, asshole.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 5:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


FEDERAL STANDARD FOR SITING METEOROLOGICAL SENSORS AT AIRPORTS

CHAPTER 2

SENSOR EXPOSURE


2.6 TEMPERATURE AND DEW POINT SENSORS.
The temperature and dew point sensors will be mounted so that the aspirator intake is 5 ± 1 feet (1.5 ± 0.3 meters) above ground level or 2 feet (0.6 meters) above the average maximum snow depth, whichever is higher. Five feet (1.5 meters) above ground is the preferred height.

The sensors will be protected from radiation from the sun, sky, earth, and any other surrounding objects but at the same time be adequately ventilated.

The sensors will be installed in such a position as to ensure that measurements are representative of the free air circulating in the locality and not influenced by artificial conditions, such as large buildings, cooling towers, and expanses of concrete and tarmac. (Which means, in case you're too dense to figure it out, away from runways and jet exhaust.)

Any grass and vegetation within 100 feet (30 meters) of the sensor should be clipped to height of about 10 inches (25 centimeters) or less.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, August 28, 2017 6:04 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
No, and thanks for the troll, troll. BTW, what WERE you doing at the airport - janitor? Did your 'work on' equipment consist of dusting?

And try READING the document. Assuming you can read, of course.

And I need to ask - do you ever - and I mean EVER - try to look anything up on a topic before you post your usual idiocy? Yanno, maybe a google search on weather station siting requirements at airports ... and then at least scan 4 or 5 links - or even one? Or do you just spew bullshit because you like to?

Goodbye, asshole.

I looked up the lunar trajectory via search engines, which were not very helpful, around the time of the Eclipse. Sure enough, I was still right. Turns out knowing that Terra and Luna are not retrograde, and that they orbit Sol (in non- Libtard locations), served me better than interweb nonsense.
Social media results from search engines were also inconclusive regarding whether the Sun rises in the East.
Ditto for whether the Earth is flat.

Turns out prior knowledge is more reliable than fake resources like the interwebs have become, at least for me.

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