REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Stop dividing the world into "good" and "evil"

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, November 4, 2018 03:22
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1134
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Wednesday, October 24, 2018 1:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It is the biggest conceit of AIL-liberals that they represent "good" and those who don't follow their beliefs are "evil".

This belief is more far dangerous than nationalism. As a "nationalist", you accept that other nations exist. And if you're a consistent "nationalist", you'll accord the same rights other nations as the ones that you claim for your own.

The problem with dividing the world into "good" and "evil", however, is that there's only one response to "evil", and that is to destroy it. There really are no other options, and no room for co-existance.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:45 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


You want to see this in action?

Go into the comments section for the motherjones link that Second posted on the other thread https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/10/obama-is-doing-the-poli
tical-rally-thing-all-wrong
/



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, October 25, 2018 9:06 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


But because I know I am on the Good side, I know the Anti-Good side is Evil.


If you don't stand FOR something, then you'll fall for anything.

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Thursday, October 25, 2018 11:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But because I know I am on the Good side, I know the Anti-Good side is Evil.
That's a problem.

Quote:

If you don't stand FOR something, then you'll fall for anything.
It IS possible to be "for" something without believing that you're the end-all and be-all of goodness. Let's say, for example, that you believe in surviving. Or that you believe in defending the USA. Neither one of those beliefs requires that you think of yourself as "good" or- conversely- that the other side is "evil".

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:02 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Let's say, for example, that you believe in surviving. Or that you believe in defending the USA. Neither one of those beliefs requires that you think of yourself as "good" or- conversely- that the other side is "evil".


She works haaaard for de rubles, so hard for it honey, so you better think she's right.

Pretty sure ALL rulers who desire to overthrow other countrys are fairly "evil" Cough, cough...RUSSIA...cough.

What I don't get... is why you even give a shit what happens to this planet...

Not like you gonna have a line of DNA to worry about and it's pretty certain you'll die in the next 20-50 years anyway...

I mean, sitting around saying to yourself "I HAVE to convince these 10 relatively unimportant people on this one ancient website that they MUST submit to Mother Russia to save the planet from what would be an eventual inevitability of global war and annihilation ANYWAY because all countries are stupid and every country has a shit ton of stupid people who WILL eventually do the ultimate stupid...."

HOW do you go on convincing yourself every day that you aren't TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY wasting your time here?? There are videos on the internet where you can literally watch paint dry, or siblings argue, or old people walking funny....and THEY are LESS of a waste of time than what you try to accomplish here every day.

Seriously, you could have written letters to EVERY politician in the last 15 years and begged them to avoid nuclear war and that might have had SOME effect, where as HERE...NOTHING.

Oh, wait...you did manage to make me hate communists and socialists. That's something I guess.

I've told a dozen people about you and your agenda here and they literally think you are I.N.S.A.N.E. and I'm inclined to agree.


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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

She works haaaard for de rubles, so hard for it honey, so you better think she's right.
Oh, the bitch-troll speaks!

You're a great example of what I was posting about.

Tell me, sweetie, what would you tell your family if I took you to court and took whatever cash you had? That you were SO SURE that you were right and good and that I was evil... and then it turned out that you were totally 100% wrong? What would that make YOU? Evil? And what would you do then?

You might want to climb down from your pedestal and re-think your righteousness before it gets you in trouble.




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:17 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


I see you didn't answer ANYTHING I ASKED. As usual. *sigh.

Made you mad though...Can't make a convert to your insanity if yer ticked, hon.

I've definitely divided the people on this board into "good" and "plenty loony" though.

Even Jo... with his wacky language agenda is waaaay more entertaining and likely than you to make a convert here... (no offence Jo, I admire your creativity )

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, were there questions in that defamatory post full of erroneous insults? Yanno, you HAVE been told many times that I'm not Russian. You have no excuse for persisting in defaming me; you can't possibly claim that you didn't know or weren't told.

Next time, you might want to put a few QUESTION MARKS in there to indicate an interrogative.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:26 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Your agenda is to get people to defer to Russia in order to avoid some made up, pretty nonexistent nuclear war, yes?

I think you've been pretty clear about that.

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Your agenda is to get people to defer to Russia in order to avoid some made up nuclear war, yes?
WTF are you talking about???

My god, you seem to have a problem with delusions!

Right now, YOUR only defense would be "insanity".



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:33 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Oh THG, I could really use yer laughing coffee emoticon, dude...

Fine, I'll entertain this absurdity for a minute.

What IS your agenda here, pray tell?? I'd love to hear THIS one...

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


We ... citizens of the United States ... are being driven farther and farther apart for no reason. The only reason why we can't come together and talk like reasonable people is because both sides believe that the other side is "evil".

It's because of righteousness, WISHY. Unlike the movies, righteousness seldom seems to end well in real life.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:48 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Being driven further away from socialism, you mean.

Good. YOU CAN'T HAVE MY SHIT

Now, stay on your side of the country, thanks



Wait, lemme make this a tad clearer.

YOU COME FOR MY SHIT....I COME FOR YOUR LIFE.

'Zat clear enough for you??



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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Being driven further away from socialism, you mean.


Hon, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE WORD "SOCIALISM" MEANS. Just like you don't know what the word "Nazi" means.

I have NEVER argued for socialism. You're really piling on the defamation, aren't you?


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 1:59 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


BAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAHAAAAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Oh, that's the funniest damn thing I've seen all year!

Thanks. I needed that chuckle!


If your lips are movin' then deny-ny-ny baby.

Ironically, that tactic is also the first string defense of actual FSB agents.
What an amazing co-ink-i-dink!


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Friday, October 26, 2018 2:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And yet ... you still don't know what you're talking about.

Just for shits and giggles: Define the word "socialism".

And then show me where I argued for it.

I KNOW you can't.

****

Yanno I can't decide whether you're lying to the board or to yourself.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 2:09 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:


Just for shits and giggles: Define the word "socialism".


Yanno I can't decide whether you're lying to the board or to yourself.




Socialism: Pathologically naive people thinking that other people wuvvv sharing.

You probably need to know... that I don't EVER doubt myself, especially when it comes to pegging people.

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Friday, October 26, 2018 2:13 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

But because I know I am on the Good side, I know the Anti-Good side is Evil.
That's a problem.
Quote:

If you don't stand FOR something, then you'll fall for anything.
It IS possible to be "for" something without believing that you're the end-all and be-all of goodness. Let's say, for example, that you believe in surviving. Or that you believe in defending the USA. Neither one of those beliefs requires that you think of yourself as "good" or- conversely- that the other side is "evil".

OK, because you started this thread, I will ask about a definition.
Sidebar - I may have been playing Devil's Advocate.
Let's say we can identify some person (or group) that is a ruthless, cold-blooded, corrupt despot. Can we call that Evil?

Is MS-13 Evil?
Hitler?
Ted Bundy?
Henry Lee Lucas?
JFK's Assassin?
Emperor Hirohito?
Stalin?
Lenin?
Kaiser Wilhelm?
Edward I (Longshanks)
Pol Pot?
Kim Il Jung?
Hells Angels?
The Drug Cartel Lords murdering all those Mexican people along the border?

Do you believe Evil exists?
Are those who fight for Evil also Evil?
Or those who fight against Good?

Are the people who murdered Vince Foster, Ron Brown, Jerry Parks, Kathy Ferguson Evil?

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Friday, October 26, 2018 2:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Socialism: Pathologically naive people thinking that other people wuvvv sharing.
Hmm, that's your first problem.

Quote:

You probably need to know... that I don't EVER doubt myself
Well, that's your SECOND problem.

Quote:

especially when it comes to pegging people
WOW, AND YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG!!

WISHY, you have a SERIOUS problem. I mean, you're so far off in left field, you're not even in the game! You might want to check out "In the Garden and RAIN!!!" if you want to know something about me.

*****

All I want to do here is to talk and think, with people who also want to talk and think. The idea of attacking people and being attacked ... wearies me. It should weary you too.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 2:20 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:


WISHY, you have a SERIOUS problem.



I know, I know...coming here to argue with gaslighting eejits like yourself when I should be sleeping...

I'll work on that.


AND NO, JSF,

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "EVIL"

Just messed up people with bad brain DNA or bad parents.

No evil spirits, no demons, no gods...JUST PEOPLE.


And it's off ta bed, now.
Night, nutjobs!

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Friday, October 26, 2018 2:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So WISHY, you have no basis for for constantly insinuating that I'm Russian. You can't define the terms that you use, and now you want to run away.

I think that's a good idea!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 2:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Let's say we can identify some person (or group) that is a ruthless, cold-blooded, corrupt despot. Can we call that Evil?
That's a good question. Let me think about it in the context of my post.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 3:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Okay, I thought about it.

"Evil" isn't a useful term. There are people who're dangerous, and some who're dangerous who have a great deal of power. Worse, some of these dangerous, powerful people are crazy. They do horrible, unavoidable things for inscrutable reasons. Killing them might save others; that's a legitimate use of violence.

But "good" and "evil" don't compute.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 7:24 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

The problem with dividing the world into "good" and "evil", however, is that there's only one response to "evil", and that is to destroy it. There really are no other options, and no room for co-existance.

In March 2013, a member of the State Department’s Policy Planning staff invited me to speak at the department and requested that I “be provocative.” Happy to comply, I titled my talk “Why U.S. Foreign Policy Keeps Failing.” A lively but friendly discussion followed, and it occurred to me afterward that my remarks might form the basis for a short book. I estimated it would take about a year to write.

Like the men and women responsible for U.S. foreign policy in recent years, I badly misjudged the difficulty of the task I had undertaken. Nonetheless, a full draft of the manuscript was complete in October 2016 and I anticipated the book would appear near the end of Hillary Clinton’s first year as president. The timing would be ideal, I thought, as I expected Clinton to repeat many of her predecessors’ mistakes, making a hard-hitting critique of U.S. grand strategy both timely and valuable.

Donald Trump’s unexpected victory in November 2016 was an awkward surprise in more ways than one, but it was also an ideal opportunity to test my core argument about America’s foreign policy elite. Candidate Trump had challenged many enduring orthodoxies about U.S. foreign policy, and he was openly dismissive of (and dismissed by) Democratic and Republican foreign policy experts alike. Once in power, however, Trump discovered that overcoming the foreign policy establishment was much harder than he had expected. Trump’s presidential style is obviously different from his predecessors’ and he has altered U.S. policy in some significant ways, but the foreign policy revolution that he promised back in 2016 remains unrealized. This book will help you understand why.

In particular, this book seeks to explain why the United States spent the past quarter century pursuing an ambitious, unrealistic, and mostly unsuccessful foreign policy.

Why did both Democrats and Republicans embark on an ill-considered campaign to spread democracy, markets, and other liberal values around the world?

How did the foreign policy establishment convince the American people to support policies that were neither necessary nor successful?

Why does U.S. Foreign Policy keep failing?

What is the answers to the questions? Read them at
The Hell of Good Intentions by Stephen M. Walt
www.amazon.com/Hell-Good-Intentions-Americas-Foreign/dp/0374280037/
Bit torrent hash df4aab819243e1daab1752bf4e77769574ad80bf
https://extratorrent.top/torrent/3303698/the-hell-of-good-intentions-b
y-stephen-m-walt-epub.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 26, 2018 8:29 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Pegging? I thought you were the pegged.

Wishy's love life just keeps getting more interesting.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, October 26, 2018 10:46 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Socialism: Pathologically naive people thinking that other people wuvvv sharing.
Hmm, that's your first problem.

Quote:

You probably need to know... that I don't EVER doubt myself
Well, that's your SECOND problem.

Quote:

especially when it comes to pegging people
WOW, AND YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG!!

WISHY, you have a SERIOUS problem. I mean, you're so far off in left field, you're not even in the game! You might want to check out "In the Garden and RAIN!!!" if you want to know something about me.

*****

All I want to do here is to talk and think, with people who also want to talk and think. The idea of attacking people and being attacked ... wearies me. It should weary you too.

With her penchant for raving on about her Anal Sex Adventures, maybe that is the pegging that BungBetty was mentioning.

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Friday, October 26, 2018 10:55 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The problem with dividing the world into "good" and "evil", however, is that there's only one response to "evil", and that is to destroy it. There really are no other options, and no room for co-existance.

In March 2013, a member of the State Department’s Policy Planning staff invited me to speak at the department and requested that I “be provocative.” Happy to comply, I titled my talk “Why U.S. Foreign Policy Keeps Failing.” A lively but friendly discussion followed, and it occurred to me afterward that my remarks might form the basis for a short book. I estimated it would take about a year to write.

Like the men and women responsible for U.S. foreign policy in recent years, I badly misjudged the difficulty of the task I had undertaken. Nonetheless, a full draft of the manuscript was complete in October 2016 and I anticipated the book would appear near the end of Hillary Clinton’s first year as president. The timing would be ideal, I thought, as I expected Clinton to repeat many of her predecessors’ mistakes, making a hard-hitting critique of U.S. grand strategy both timely and valuable.

Donald Trump’s unexpected victory in November 2016 was an awkward surprise in more ways than one, but it was also an ideal opportunity to test my core argument about America’s foreign policy elite. Candidate Trump had challenged many enduring orthodoxies about U.S. foreign policy, and he was openly dismissive of (and dismissed by) Democratic and Republican foreign policy experts alike. Once in power, however, Trump discovered that overcoming the foreign policy establishment was much harder than he had expected. Trump’s presidential style is obviously different from his predecessors’ and he has altered U.S. policy in some significant ways, but the foreign policy revolution that he promised back in 2016 remains unrealized. This book will help you understand why.

In particular, this book seeks to explain why the United States spent the past quarter century pursuing an ambitious, unrealistic, and mostly unsuccessful foreign policy.

Why did both Democrats and Republicans embark on an ill-considered campaign to spread democracy, markets, and other liberal values around the world?

How did the foreign policy establishment convince the American people to support policies that were neither necessary nor successful?

Why does U.S. Foreign Policy keep failing?

What is the answers to the questions? Read them at
The Hell of Good Intentions by Stephen M. Walt
www.amazon.com/Hell-Good-Intentions-Americas-Foreign/dp/0374280037/
Bit torrent hash df4aab819243e1daab1752bf4e77769574ad80bf
https://extratorrent.top/torrent/3303698/the-hell-of-good-intentions-b
y-stephen-m-walt-epub.html


Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing? Democracy and Freedom is a God-given Birthright of human beings only to Americans, not to the unwashed masses outside the USA borders?

Golly, that is somebody we should all listen to.

Not.


Which words are yours? Are you Stephen Walt?

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Friday, October 26, 2018 11:02 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Okay, I thought about it.

"Evil" isn't a useful term. There are people who're dangerous, and some who're dangerous who have a great deal of power. Worse, some of these dangerous, powerful people are crazy. They do horrible, unavoidable things for inscrutable reasons. Killing them might save others; that's a legitimate use of violence.

But "good" and "evil" don't compute.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

So then what did your OP mean? You seem to have left it without meaning.

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Friday, October 26, 2018 11:16 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing? Democracy and Freedom is a God-given Birthright of human beings only to Americans, not to the unwashed masses outside the USA borders?

Golly, that is somebody we should all listen to.

Not.


Which words are yours? Are you Stephen Walt?

These words are definitely mine: Do you remember Vietnam? Every time I stand on my leg reminds me. Do you remember Iraq? Do you remember North Korea? Last I checked, America gave up on the Korean War long before it was actually over. There really were not enough willing, and I don't mean drafted, Americans to go around and do the job to completion.

Those are three places that America was bringing Freedom and Democracy, but America wasn't willing to also bring the necessary millions of Americans who spoke the local language and the trillions of dollars. Last time I checked, none of those wars would I consider successful, mainly because the Pentagon and the State Department were insanely optimistic about what it would take to actually win. And they never went to a psychiatrist to regain the sanity they once had. They are still as crazy as ever.

On second thought, maybe the dishonest Pentagon and State Dept cheat on the arithmetic about how much manpower, how much money, and how many years these things cost.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 26, 2018 11:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF


a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 11:32 AM

THG


Arrest made in connection to explosive devices mailed to Democrats

Federal law enforcement officials made an arrest in connection to the mass mail bombings plot targeting high-profile Democrats and critics of President Donald Trump, according to CNN.

http://www.mysuncoast.com/news/report-arrest-made-in-connection-to-exp
losive-devices-mailed-to/article_a988ffe8-d930-11e8-a466-7f3dbd177010.html


T

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Friday, October 26, 2018 11:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Umm... you DID know that there's a thread devoted to the topic. Right? It's over here.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=62749

I'm going to do us all a favor and repost your post into the appropriate thread.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 11:41 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF


a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

More of your weakling talk, Signym. American can do whatever it damn well please, but America can not do it at whatever price its President pleases to claim it will cost. The true cost is determined by reality, not the President, and our Presidents are terribly dishonest at budgeting for the true cost. They erroneously, and more likely deliberately, price things at 10% or even 1% of the actual cost for success. When they run ludicrously over budget, the Presidents start lying then begging and pleading for more time and money to finish the job that was not worth the true price to be paid in the first place.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 26, 2018 11:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

More of your weakling talk, Signym. American can do whatever it damn well please, but America can not do it at whatever price its President pleases to claim it will cost. The true cost is determined by reality, not the President, and our Presidents are terribly dishonest at budgeting for the true cost. They erroneously, and more likely deliberately, price things at 10% or even 1% of the actual cost for success. When they run ludicrously over budget, the Presidents start lying then begging and pleading for more time and money to finish the job that was not worth the true price to be paid in the first place. - SECOND
I thought JSF was looking for a moral statement, not a realpolitik one. The difference between what we CAN do and what we CHOOSE TO do.

"Democracy" is a moral concept, as is "open markets". They represent moral choices; what he defines as "good".


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 12:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Umm... you DID know that there's a thread devoted to the topic. Right? It's over here.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=62749

I'm going to do us all a favor and repost your post into the appropriate thread.

Now that's just Crazy Talk. Posting on topic within a thread? You are just trying to confuse Trolls like him. Nobody visits or responds to the threads they traffic.

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Friday, October 26, 2018 12:55 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

More of your weakling talk, Signym. American can do whatever it damn well please, but America can not do it at whatever price its President pleases to claim it will cost. The true cost is determined by reality, not the President, and our Presidents are terribly dishonest at budgeting for the true cost. They erroneously, and more likely deliberately, price things at 10% or even 1% of the actual cost for success. When they run ludicrously over budget, the Presidents start lying then begging and pleading for more time and money to finish the job that was not worth the true price to be paid in the first place. - SECOND
I thought JSF was looking for a moral statement, not a realpolitik one. The difference between what we CAN do and what we CHOOSE TO do.

"Democracy" is a moral concept, as is "open markets". They represent moral choices; what he defines as "good".


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

All this moral talk has the buried assumptions that a life has infinite value and the consequences of moral decisions go on forever. Too bad the assumptions are false. If these were true, then going to faraway lands to change somebody’s religion, economy and government can always be justified as worth doing. It may take some serious sophistry and many lies and deceptions by a President and your Congressman, but it can be justified.

Another way of making decisions, where the President and Congress make a public calculate of the number of dead on both sides, and also count the dollars and years, the Federal Government will arrive at completely different answers about when and where to spread Democracy and Freedom. This calculation is also subject to lies and deceptions, but it is harder to commit the typical political fraud that goes on at the White House, which keeps its real thinking and motives in secret, only telling the bullshit justifications the press office created, not the real reasons.

I was going to work the following into the argument, to show you how to calculate, but I don’t have the inclination. Thinking this way is serious work, too much of the kind that politicians are not comfortable doing, which is why they fall back on their easy lies, confusion, and plain old nonsense. That way is less work. (I’m thinking of Nixon’s tapes. You will hear all the lazy, half-ass, simplistic nonsense from him and Kissinger) On with the calculation:

According to a Social Discount Rate, the present moral importance of future events, especially benefits and losses, declines at a rate of “N” per cent per year. Two commonly employed rates are 5 per cent and 10 per cent. With one kind of SDR I have no quarrel. This is an SDR applied to benefits and losses measured in monetary terms, on the assumption that there will be inflation. But many economists apply an SDR to benefits and losses, measured at the size that they will have when they occur. My example in the text is not imagined. It has been seriously suggested that, in assessing the risks of the disposal of nuclear wastes, we should apply an SDR to future deaths. More generally, Social Discount Rates have been applied, not to monetary gains and losses, but to what economists call the actual utility that will be enjoyed by future people. This is the kind of SDR that I discuss. Why has this kind of SDR been thought to be justified? I am aware of six arguments:

The Argument from Democracy: Many people care less about the further future. Some writers claim that, if this is true of most of the adult citizens of some democratic country, this country’s government ought to employ a Social Discount Rate. If its electorate does care less about the further future, a democratic government ought to do so. Failure to do so would be paternalistic, or authoritarian. In one writer’s words, the government’s decisions should ‘reflect only the preferences of present individuals’.— We can ignore this argument. There are two questions:

(1) As a community, may we use a Social Discount Rate? Are we morally justified in being less concerned about the more remote effects of our social policies, at some rate of n percent per year?

(2) If most of our community answer ‘Yes’ to question (1), ought our government to override this majority view?

The Argument from Democracy applies only to question (2). To question (1), which is our concern, the argument is irrelevant.

And it continues on and on at Derek Parfit - Reasons and Persons [1986] in Appendix F, the Social Discount Rate.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 26, 2018 12:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me.

OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons?

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Friday, October 26, 2018 2:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Very interesting discussion, but I'll be really busy so I won't be able to respond until tomorrow, probably.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, October 26, 2018 6:06 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me.

OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons?

I'm sure Signym has a better answer, but for one example, Tibet has been completely engulfed by China. Tibetans are outnumbered by Chinese in Tibet. If the 14th Dalai Lama was the kind of guy who could get the ear of Trump, would Trump invade China to free Tibet? If Trump listened then tried war, it would not go well for him because Americans, other than the occasional Buddhist, aren't willing to learn the language or die for that far away land. Trump could offer to Tibetans sanctuary in America, but Americans, other than the occasional Buddhist, aren't willing to take on a million Tibetans. Too stressful for the Americans to have all these colorful people around. There is only 3.18 million in Tibet, most of who are actually Chinese.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 12:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing? Democracy and Freedom is a God-given Birthright of human beings only to Americans, not to the unwashed masses outside the USA borders? - JSF


JSF, what is so great about democracy? What is so great about open markets? If societies were to follow your prescript, what result are you looking for in society? Prosperity? Happiness? Vigor? Peace?

When you advocate freedom, democracy, and open markets you have some ideal result/society in mind. What does it look like?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 12:50 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?"

I would say that spreading democracy at the point of a gun, and spreading open markets by fiat, seem inherently self-contradictory, and so, self-defeating.

I would need to know how you reconcile those to continue considering your ideas.

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 1:00 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"There is only 3.18 million in Tibet, most of who are actually Chinese."

In a few tens of thousands of years, the interloper Chinese may have evolution select for adaptations to the high altitude that are similar to, or maybe even different from, the native Tibetans. Until then, the Chinese can never be more than part-time inhabitants, who will pay a price in comfort, health, and lifespan, for their territorial ambitions.


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Saturday, October 27, 2018 1:08 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me.

OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons?

Continuing from my last post, I understand 32,000 have been slaughtered on the Mexican side of the US border. Compared to about 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq. Are these Drug Lords in Mexico Evil? Or is there a non-Evil motive?

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 1:08 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.

I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me.

OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons?

Continuing from my last post, I understand 32,000 have been slaughtered on the Mexican side of the US border. Compared to about 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq. Are these Drug Lords in Mexico Evil? Or is there a non-Evil motive?

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 1:19 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"There is only 3.18 million in Tibet, most of who are actually Chinese."

In a few tens of thousands of years, the interloper Chinese may develop adaptations to the high altitude that are similar to, or maybe even different from, the native Tibetans. Until then, the Chinese can never be more than part-time inhabitants, who will pay a price in comfort, health, and lifespan, for their territorial ambitions.




tic tac

I don't get invading China to Free Tibet. That sounds like invading Mexico to Free California. Why not invade Tibet to expel invaders, freeing Tibet?

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 1:28 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


That wasn't my argument, but you have a point. Why attack China? Why not just go into Tibet to boot out the Chinese?

OTOH ... let's assume the Tibetans actually invited the US to help them with their 'China' problem.

That would be not at all equivalent to the US attacking Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Libya, or Syria, without any general consultation of the will of 'the people' who live in those countries.

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 2:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND, you posted this

Quote:

Candidate Trump had challenged many enduring orthodoxies about U.S. foreign policy, and he was openly dismissive of (and dismissed by) Democratic and Republican foreign policy experts alike. Once in power, however, Trump discovered that overcoming the foreign policy establishment was much harder than he had expected. Trump’s presidential style is obviously different from his predecessors’ and he has altered U.S. policy in some significant ways, but the foreign policy revolution that he promised back in 2016 remains unrealized. This book will help you understand why.

In particular, this book seeks to explain why the United States spent the past quarter century pursuing an ambitious, unrealistic, and mostly unsuccessful foreign policy.

Why did both Democrats and Republicans embark on an ill-considered campaign to spread democracy, markets, and other liberal values around the world?



There are several parts to this quote

*****

It places blame on BOTH the Democratic and Republican "foreign policy establishment" ... which some would call the deep state. Your constant harping about the GOP is misleading you - the problem is much deeper than one political party.

*****

While its easy to calculate our costs in terms of lives and money, it's impossible to calculate the benefits of democracy, markets, and other liberal values . And yet, you spend a great deal of words calculating the Social Discount Rate of benefits which can't even be measured. You seem to be agonizing over the lost opportunity to reform other societies, or at least to save tyrannized people. SECOND, can you please tell me what it is that you hope we would accomplish, in the ideal circumstance that we decide to spend money and blood on your worthwhile goals?






-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 2:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?- JSF

a) It's not up to us to enforce our way of life on other people, and
b) EVEN IF we assume that "spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world" is a good thing, can you seriously argue that that's what we've been doing? Heck, we can't even seem to ensure democracy and open markets HERE.- SIGNY

I should have been more clear. I was confusing Democracy, Free Market, Free Enterprise with Liberty, Freedom and stuff. Silly me. OTOH, are ideals like spreading Liberty, Freedom, to those outside America bad? Or should those not in America remain in their prisons? ... Continuing from my last post, I understand 32,000 have been slaughtered on the Mexican side of the US border. Compared to about 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq. Are these Drug Lords in Mexico Evil? Or is there a non-Evil motive?- JSF



First of all, I have no idea where you got that egregiously wrong figure of "10,000" people killed in Iraq.
Quote:

Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131015-iraq-war-death
s-survey-2013
/

And does it matter that we killed people because we "meant well", as opposed to drug lords who kill people over money? If they're evil because they killed 32,000 people, what does that make us if we killed 500,000?



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 2:33 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


A very weird topic....no "good" - no "evil" in the world. Don't say that to a
born-again Christian. But, religion aside, that is a rather "interesting" thing to say in this day and age.

So, that means that Kim Jong-Un is a boy scout. And the bold statement you make that belief in good and evil in this world is more dangerous than nationalism. I know, you said that the "conceit of liberals" thinking they
are good (and therefor "right") is dangerous, so much so that it pales in comparison to nationalism.

So, as Jewels has stated in a reply: What about mass murderers? Bundy, etc.
I found it curious that you did not respond to his post.

Well, good and evil...they exist and you have people of all stripes that
follow either path. Some don't know that they are evil, or actually believe
that what they are is "good" and that they are entitled for many different
reasons.

If you want to say that you despise "liberals" because they feel entitled and
declare themselves good, then go ahead and say that. No one could take that
thought away from you, because that is what you believe. But to say that there's no good or evil in this world...well, that's another story now, isn't it?


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is the biggest conceit of AIL-liberals that they represent "good" and those who don't follow their beliefs are "evil".

This belief is more far dangerous than nationalism. As a "nationalist", you accept that other nations exist. And if you're a consistent "nationalist", you'll accord the same rights other nations as the ones that you claim for your own.

The problem with dividing the world into "good" and "evil", however, is that there's only one response to "evil", and that is to destroy it. There really are no other options, and no room for co-existance.


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Saturday, October 27, 2018 2:43 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Spreading Democracy and open Markets around the world is a bad thing?"

I would say that spreading democracy at the point of a gun, and spreading open markets by fiat, seem inherently self-contradictory, and so, self-defeating.

I would need to know how you reconcile those to continue considering your ideas.

??
I had not considered forcing a horse to drink water.
If imprisoned persons do not wish to achieve Freedom, we should not force Freedom upon them.
I don't recall hearing about many French objecting to liberation from Nazi occupation. Some of the French seemed to desire a return to Self Governing, I didn't think we forced Freedom upon them, or democracy.

I don't recall Republic of Korea Citizens ranting in opposition to being allowed self governance.

The Vietnamese that I've talked to seemed to cherish Freedom and Democracy, and wish their former country had both. About the same with Hmong, and Cambodians. They were forced into Communism, not forced into Freedom.

Rumor has it that no persons were ever recorded as breaching the Berlin Wall to escape Freedom and Democracy in favor of Communism, unlike the Official Communist Policy.

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