Season 4 Questions (no spoilers, please) by Phoenixship

Just to add a little something extra, I think Wes rescued Angel at least partly because he knew that the side of good needed it's champion, Angel. According to prophecy, Angel was to play a prominent role in the apocalypse. He could not very well do that rotting at the bottom of the ocean.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 13, 2004 11:28 AM

It's best not to try to understand S4... ;)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 13, 2004 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
It's best not to try to understand S4... ;)

Grounded, you and I could probably have a friendly debate over season 4 ad infinitum. I get the impression you thought it was the worst of the series. And myself, I think season 3&4 were the best of the series. It being a close race between 3&4 as to which one is my single favorite season. I like it though. Every time I write something about Angel, I anxiously await reading your inevitable reply since they are usually polar opposite to my post. Debate is good though, keep it up please. I am curious if you are a Buffy fan too. I thought considering how much we differ on Angel if the same would be true on Buffy. Oh well, we may differ on season 4, but I think we both share a love for the series and of course our beloved Firefly so we have that much in common at least.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 13, 2004 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
How was he certain that she was connected to his disappearance? Why did Wesley even care after what had happened with Connor? And wasn't Angel a little too quick to forgive Wesley?

Wesley had been set up by Justine, so that he ended up betraying Angel and causing Connor to be lost...
so Wesley wanted to fix the problems he had caused (and continue to help TPTB)

Angel forgave his son for putting him in the ocean, so it probably wasn't that hard to forgive Wesley for the inadvertant betrayal (after all, at least Wes wasn't TRYING to hurt anyone)...
besides Angel had been revived with Wesley's own blood, that has to bring you closer together (LOL)

I have to say that I'm enjoying S4 more now that I'm rewatching it, but I still don't think it can compare to S5 (my personal favorite)
-------------------------
oh wait, you meant how did Wes know that Justine was connected w/Angel's disappearance into the sea...
but Wesley knew that Justine had been closely connected with Holtz, and since Connor was so committed to Holtz it wouldn't be too surprising to find Justine involved with Conner (helping w/the burial at sea and all).
Wes had become a pretty good detective and rogue demon hunter by this time, I'm pretty sure he found the trail pretty easy to follow.
(the surprise is that Fred & Gunn were so easily fooled by Connor for so long!)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 13, 2004 1:13 PM

JEWEL

I think Angel forgave Wesley before the rescue.

When Angel was hallucinating the Thanksgiving dinner, Wesley was there and Angel was happy that everyone was together and he made a toast to "family". I think by then he had already forgiven Wes. I guess being locked in a box at the bottom of the ocean for three months (even a relatively shallow part) kind of puts things into perspective. He certainly had plenty of time to self reflect.

As to how Wes knew that Justine had anything to do with Angel's dissapearance? My theory is that, aside from Justine and Connor wanting Angel out of the way more than just about anyone, perhaps he got information from that one vampire that used Point Dume as a feeding ground (that Connor killed). He seemed to really do his homework and had gathered quite a bit of information on how to find Cordy as well.

Although feeling alienated from everyone he cared about, Wesley never lost the mission. He may never have thought that he'd be friends with Angel again. But he did know that Angel was needed and did so much good. He had to find Angel.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 13, 2004 1:26 PM

SUCCATASH

All this talk about Angel forgiving Wesley - Angel has no choice, he needs Wesley's help to find Cordelia. When Angel says that he and Wesley are "okay," Wes looks annoyed and hands Angel a packet and says something like, "Here's what you really came for."

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 13, 2004 11:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:
Grounded, you and I could probably have a friendly debate over season 4 ad infinitum. I get the impression you thought it was the worst of the series. And myself, I think season 3&4 were the best of the series. It being a close race between 3&4 as to which one is my single favorite season. I like it though. Every time I write something about Angel, I anxiously await reading your inevitable reply since they are usually polar opposite to my post. Debate is good though, keep it up please. I am curious if you are a Buffy fan too. I thought considering how much we differ on Angel if the same would be true on Buffy. Oh well, we may differ on season 4, but I think we both share a love for the series and of course our beloved Firefly so we have that much in common at least.

Angel:
1. S1
2. S2
3. S3
4. S5
5. S4

Buffy:
1. S2
2. S1
3. S3
4. S4
5. S5
6. S7
7. S6

Firefly:
Well Firefly just plain rocks, but there aren't enough episodes to compare it with the other two.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 1:22 AM

MALICIOUS

As I recall, Wes threatened to take Justine's bucket away when she was about to smash his head in from behind on the boat whilst looking for Angel. This appeared to be a great motivator for her.

Also, I kind of lean toward the thought that Justine might have been reconsidering who was good and who was bad. She is still grieving for her sister and Holtz, and is filled with thoughts of revenge, but she may have felt like spending eternity staring into the ocean's depths was too cruel even for a vampire. Especially one who has done good works and has friends like Wesley.

I also agree that Angel had already forgiven Wes prior to being rescued, as evidenced by the Thanksgiving dinner scene.

Mal-licious

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 3:19 AM

BIKISDAD

Justine grieving for Holtz? She's the one who killed him and then told Connor that Angel did it - or at least let Connor believe that. If anything, she should be feeling at least some remorse for that. On the other hand, maybe not. She certainly showed no remorse for trying to kill Wesley.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 3:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malicious:
As I recall, Wes threatened to take Justine's bucket away when she was about to smash his head in from behind on the boat whilst looking for Angel. This appeared to be a great motivator for her.

That was a bit ridiculous - she could have smashed his head in before he even had a chance to finish the sentence...

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 4:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Angel:
1. S1
2. S2
3. S3
4. S5
5. S4

Buffy:
1. S2
2. S1
3. S3
4. S4
5. S5
6. S7
7. S6

Angel
1. S3
2. S4
3. S5
4. S1
5. S2

Buffy
1. S2
2. S3
3. S6
4. S4
5. S7
6. S5
7. S1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 5:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Angel:
1. S1
2. S2
3. S3
4. S5
5. S4

Buffy:
1. S2
2. S1
3. S3
4. S4
5. S5
6. S7
7. S6

Angel
1. S3
2. S4
3. S5
4. S1
5. S2

Buffy
1. S2
2. S3
3. S6
4. S4
5. S7
6. S5
7. S1

Angel
1. 5
2. 2
3. 3
4. 1
5. 4

Buffy
1. 4
2. 2
3. 3
4. 6
5. 5
6. 1
JMPO...LOL

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:38 AM

The number of people that put Buffy S1 at the bottom of their list always surprises me. It's basically a shorter, cheaper version of S2. Sure the visuals are sometimes poor, but the dialogue is razor-sharp throughout the entire year. Some of Buffy's best lines are in S1.

Embers: Angel S5 at the top...hmm...let me guess, might you be a fan of Spike?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

Angel
1. 5
2. 2
3. 3
4. 1
5. 4

Buffy
1. 4
2. 2
3. 3
4. 6
5. 5
6. 1
JMPO...LOL

What about Buffy season 7?

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
The number of people that put Buffy S1 at the bottom of their list always surprises me. It's basically a shorter, cheaper version of S2. Sure the visuals are sometimes poor, but the dialogue is razor-sharp throughout the entire year. Some of Buffy's best lines are in S1.

Embers: Angel S5 at the top...hmm...let me guess, might you be a fan of Spike?

I loved Buffy S1. For me, it has to rank behind the rest because of the shortness and I did not think it was as consistent as the rest of the seasons. I just don't think they had quite hit their stride until season 2 and then really got going in season 3.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
The number of people that put Buffy S1 at the bottom of their list always surprises me. Some of Buffy's best lines are in S1.

Embers: Angel S5 at the top...hmm...let me guess, might you be a fan of Spike?

My rating has more to do with the overall seasonal arc than writing of individual episodes, and I've always felt that the BtVS S1 had no over all arc (except Buffy not wanting to be the slayer...), it was mostly stand alone episodes with thin obvious metaphors that I didn't find very moving....

and I DID forget to include S7, I'm still not sure where I would put it...I loved the season, but probably after S3 and before S5 (I really didn't like Glory et al).

and yes, you're right...I AM a Spike fan, but mostly I liked the Ats 'belly of the beast' theme, the attempt to fool the WB into believing they had stand-alone episodes when really there was this over-all arc of Angel being afraid he was becoming the puppet of Wolfram&Hart, a hollow version of his former champion self....
I felt that Ats S5 had a very clear vision of what themes were important to create a season arc about the existential hero and why he fights.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

My rating has more to do with the overall seasonal arc than writing of individual episodes, and I've always felt that the BtVS S1 had no over all arc (except Buffy not wanting to be the slayer...), it was mostly stand alone episodes with thin obvious metaphors that I didn't find very moving....

S6 is the king of obvious metaphors...
Anyway, how can you say S1 has no arc? We have the arc of discovering who Angel is as well as the rising of the Master. It was a little thin given that they only had 12 episodes but still very well done.

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

I felt that Ats S5 had a very clear vision of what themes were important to create a season arc about the existential hero and why he fights.

This is the kind of arc I prefer: a thematic one. Something that S1, S2 Angel had in abundance. Long story arcs tend to get bogged down in padding and continuity - S4 is supposed to run concurrent with Buffy S7 but the timeframes aren't even close to one another...

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:22 AM

LITTLEMANLOVESFIRE

I have to join the best season list debate!

Angel

S4 - (Though I hate Cordy all the way through!)
S5
S3
S1
S2

VERY tough as they are all so close. Buffy is a little easier for me.

S3
S2
S4
S7
S5
S1
S6

2 and 3 are incredibly close. I used to think 2 was the best but Mayor Wilkins and increased input from Oz just pip 3 for me. I think Mayor Wilkins was responsible for the two most amazing moments ever in Buffy - walking straight into the library while they were discussing him (*shiver*), and then his outburst at Angel in the hospital - "Misery loves company young man and I'm looking to share some of that with you and your whore!". Quite possibly the best villain I've ever seen in anything.

Also my other most favourite moment ever - Oz breaking the Urn in "Choices". Fantastic.

I think Season 4 has improved with age. Most people hated it at first - I did! The arc plot was not the greatest and Adam looked a tad lame but there are a huge number of standout episodes. Season 5 on the other hand I adored at first but has seemed to get worse with subsequent viewings.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 12:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Littlemanlovesfire:
I think Season 4 has improved with age. Most people hated it at first - I did! The arc plot was not the greatest and Adam looked a tad lame but there are a huge number of standout episodes. Season 5 on the other hand I adored at first but has seemed to get worse with subsequent viewings.

I'm one of the few who like Riley. Shame they ruined him...

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Littlemanlovesfire:
I think Season 4 has improved with age. Most people hated it at first - I did! The arc plot was not the greatest and Adam looked a tad lame but there are a huge number of standout episodes.

I wanted to throw in my 2¢ in favor of BtVS S4
in Joss' commentary he talks about the arc of Sci-Fi vs Magic, and this was the very thing that enthrawled me...
And of course I loved magically enhanced Buffy over-powering Adam...
with that wonderful moment:
"you can not hope to grasp the source of our power...
but yours it right here"
(LOL)
and of course the greatness of
Restless
Pangs
Hush
Something Blue
Superstar
and so many other special episodes in S4

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:53 PM