wes and illyria by est120

ANGELUS ARCANUM

wes and illyria

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Friday, March 25, 2005 03:01
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Saturday, December 11, 2004 1:53 PM

does anyone want to expand a little on the relationship between wes and illyria? i do not mean romantic necessarily, but their interpersonal relationship. over the last half os season 5, wes is the only member of the crew that makes a real effort to connect with illyria. of course, spike gets beat up by her, but he is ordered to do that. anyway, wes, in his grief over losing fred, becomes the closest to illyria. in the finale, illyria says that she is concerned over wes' well being (after his confrontation with vail). also, when wes is tending to illyria's wounds, she questions why he does not go off and enjoy his last day. wes replies with the line "why don't i go off and have one last perfect day? smell the flowers or sky dive or have a go at it will mistress spanks-a-lot.." illyria seems slightly surprised by this statement and she further questions wes by asking "mistress who?".

my question is, does anyone feel that illyria has more of a grudging respect for wes as a human being that she does not have for any other type of being on the planet?

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 2:06 PM

CORNCOBB

I think that Illyria's interaction with Wesley helped her to understand and appreciate the human condition. And she seemed to develope more than just respect for him; she became fond of him. She repeatedly made advances towards him whilst disguised as Fred and after his death she even said she was feeling grief for him

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:44 AM

GROUNDED

"mistress spanks-a-lot.."

That line almost completely spoiled that scene. Why did they feel the need to crowbar some ridiculous 'humour' into every second scene? Argh...

Anyway, more to the point, I think they rushed Illyria's development. Whether or not that's anything to do with the cancellation, I have no idea, but she seemed to accept her fate pretty damn easily for an 'old one'. The 'understanding the human condition' thing is one of SF/F's ultimate cliches, and I think they could have been a little more original in the way it was handled.

Incidentally, I finally found my tape of the finale and rewatched it. I still maintain they botched Wes's death scene. Other than that though, I'm sticking to my original assessment that it blew the Buffy finale away :)

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Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:30 PM

MACBAKER

It's obvious that Illyria retains Fred's memories (otherwise, she wouldn't be able to mimic Fred so convincingly). I think Illyria's feeling for Wesley go beyond just respect. Fred cared for Wes, and because of those memories, I believe Illyria cares for him too. If she didn't care about him, why would she offer to let him spend his last moments with Fred. Her reaction to his death seems to support this.

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

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Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:52 PM

AMYEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I think they rushed Illyria's development. Whether or not that's anything to do with the cancellation

It had everything to do with the cancellation. At conventions, Amy Acker has spoken a lot about what the original ideas for Illyria were. Apparently, she and Joss talked for months before AHITW was written about how to portray Illyria. The cancellation was announced during the filming of Underneath, so everything after that was changed to gear towards the finale. Amy has mentioned that Illyria wasn't supposed to be Illyria-only for very long. I don't remember all the details from the different con reports, but Illyria was supposed to slip into Fred more often for various reasons. I think mostly it was how Illyria could deal with the world by accessing Fred's memories to get by, and how that makes Illyria change, sort of from the inside out. Instead, they fast-forwarded Illyria's gaining emotions and becoming attached to people.

If the show wasn't cancelled, Wesley wouldn't have died (Amy and Alexis are pretty sure about that one, but the writers haven't said a lot about it), so of course we'd see the Wes & Illyria relationship develop even more. Jeff Bell had hinted in some interview that Fred might still be around somewhere, even though Illyria claimed that her soul had been destroyed. I always wondered about that, especially since souls are so important to the `verse that I can't imagine that you can actually irradicate one. And Alexis had said that one idea the writers had was that Wes would be conflicted because he would become increasingly fond of Illyria, but he'd still be obsessed with trying find a way to get Fred back. So Wes would sort of put himself in a love triangle with the "shell" and the thing that took over the shell.

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Friday, December 24, 2004 3:54 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
It had everything to do with the cancellation. At conventions, Amy Acker has spoken a lot about what the original ideas for Illyria were. Apparently, she and Joss talked for months before AHITW was written about how to portray Illyria. The cancellation was announced during the filming of Underneath, so everything after that was changed to gear towards the finale. Amy has mentioned that Illyria wasn't supposed to be Illyria-only for very long. I don't remember all the details from the different con reports, but Illyria was supposed to slip into Fred more often for various reasons. I think mostly it was how Illyria could deal with the world by accessing Fred's memories to get by, and how that makes Illyria change, sort of from the inside out. Instead, they fast-forwarded Illyria's gaining emotions and becoming attached to people.

If the show wasn't cancelled, Wesley wouldn't have died (Amy and Alexis are pretty sure about that one, but the writers haven't said a lot about it), so of course we'd see the Wes & Illyria relationship develop even more. Jeff Bell had hinted in some interview that Fred might still be around somewhere, even though Illyria claimed that her soul had been destroyed. I always wondered about that, especially since souls are so important to the `verse that I can't imagine that you can actually irradicate one. And Alexis had said that one idea the writers had was that Wes would be conflicted because he would become increasingly fond of Illyria, but he'd still be obsessed with trying find a way to get Fred back. So Wes would sort of put himself in a love triangle with the "shell" and the thing that took over the shell.

Thanks for the info! I'm glad to hear that - although it just makes me more frustrated by the cancellation...

Rabit

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Friday, December 31, 2004 1:57 PM

PSYCHICRIVER

A plan I heard of for Season 6, is that Willow would show up and separate Fred from Illyria.

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."

"We can take care of each other. I'll knit!"

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Friday, January 7, 2005 11:55 AM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

I heard about that too - with Amy playing dual roles as Illyria and Fred. I don't know how I would've felt about that. I mean, it works for crazy evil twin episodes (see, Dopplegangland) but I don't know if it would work on a regular basis.

Anyway...I too was kind of pissed that Illyria just gave up. When A Hole in the World aired, I was like, "okay, THIS is our big bad for this season..." and then she sees her army is gone so she's just like "KAY! I GIVE!" I find that unrealistic. I figured she would've gone on a killing spree or something.

But like you guys said, the cancellation came about just around that time so they couldn't really do anything with it.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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Monday, January 10, 2005 7:32 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat:
"okay, THIS is our big bad for this season..."

I loathe the term 'big bad'. A single strong foe for a season's climax can be effective, but not when it's done every year. Fair enough Illyria did seem to cave a little quickly (and we all know the reason why...) but it was a far more original direction for her to take compared with a six ep rampage followed by final showdown.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 12:18 PM

HJERMSTED

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I loathe the term 'big bad'. A single strong foe for a season's climax can be effective, but not when it's done every year. Fair enough Illyria did seem to cave a little quickly (and we all know the reason why...) but it was a far more original direction for her to take compared with a six ep rampage followed by final showdown.

Illyria would have been a great character to try and work into the mix at length giving her a season or two to grow. There were so many different directions they could have taken her. The worst thing about the cancellation, of course, was the loss of Wes. That still could have happened somewhere in a theoretical season 6, of course, but the cancellation sure did put plot devices into overdrive and often things felt like they were moving a bit too fast.

Hopefully the writers would have shunned the "Illyria as the Big Bad" impulse and used her character instead as a vehicle for learning more about ALL of the Angel characters. It might have been fun for Illyria to try to take over the planet/dimension a few more times (raising armies or henchmen, various plots) and fail each time until she eventually succumbs and becomes a trusted member of Angel, Inc.

If there are Angel/Buffyverse films on the horizon, I hope Joss and the writers (if he brings others in) will find room for Amy and Illyria.

Also... Electro-Gwen! We didn't see her once in season 5, did we? What a shame. I enjoy her character for more than the obvious reasons.

Now here's a question for the panel: With Wesley gone, who should be Illyria's new closest relation/foil in future projects?

mattro

PS: I'm glad new Angel comic books are on the horizon. Perhaps Joss will write them himself.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 12:46 PM

GROUNDED

I thought Gwen was a bit pointless...but I suppose she could have been fleshed out a bit if given more screen time.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:00 AM

CYBERSNARK

Illyria wouldn't have been the Big Bad. Way too obvious. It would've been, like, human society as the Big Bad, or something.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
Now here's a question for the panel: With Wesley gone, who should be Illyria's new closest relation/foil in future projects?

Spike. He makes funny noises when she hits him.

"Don't touch the clipboard."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:32 AM

AMYEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
Now here's a question for the panel: With Wesley gone, who should be Illyria's new closest relation/foil in future projects?

Spike. He makes funny noises when she hits him.

"Don't touch the clipboard."

"I'd like to keep Spike as my pet." -- Illyria has already decided for us!

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Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:40 PM

SHANYU

Illyria and Wes are as close to friends as they can possibly become. Wesley feels attached to Illyria because she is inhabiting the boby of a women he has loved ever since they met(and as he said maybe even before). Illyria on the other hand was all powerful, and she thought she had an army at her disposle able to help her take back reign. When she sees that her army was destroyed she then needs to find another way to take control so she goes to wesly. She feels (this is only my opinion) that if she knows more about the peoepl she will be fighting than it will be easier to take control. AFter losing her powers (somewhat) she spends more time with wesley and she has never really been around someone she did not have complete power over making wesley a quite unique person, and she grows respect and she even becomes fond of him, like you for your "pet" and if your pet dies yoy will most likely also feel grief for it like she felt for Wesley.

One other theory i have is because illyria has all of fred memorys maybe she has the feelings that she had for wes somewhere inside her.

--
"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:43 AM

NOOCYTE

Salient points:

Illyria continues to cry, even after Wes slips away...

The well-earned fate of Vale's mellon, immediately thereafter.

Illyria admitting in front of the group that she is experiencing grief (and, incidentally, bothering to notice Gunn's wound; emerging empathy?), and her determination to bust some heads (and wings, and tentacles...).

Illyria had (reluctantly) developed feelings for Wes, no question. I would even venture so far as to say that she loved him. Personally, I think the confluence (in the most conflu-ey sense) of the increasing availability of Fred's memories, and Illyria's own respect for Wes as a guide/companion/fellow-warrior sparked these feelings.

Crikey! I wish this show had not been cancelled!!!

Department of Redundancy Department

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 11:14 AM

LISSA

Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:

The well-earned fate of Vale's mellon, immediately thereafter.

BEST. SHOT. EVER. at least until i think of something else. so cool!

~lissa, spwhore

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 11:46 AM

STILLSHINY

I thought much of it centered on the way Wes treated her. Here she was ready to open her doorway and wipe us all out. Then only to find out it was all gone. Everything she was "living for" and yet, here is the one she had stolen the most from. She had stolen the body & soul of Fred from Wes for her own conquest. Suddenly she was face to face with how he felt. And in that moment he had the perfect oppourtunity, to mock her, to strike her down in her despair & moment of weakness. To treat her just as she would have treated all of them. For Illyria to come up against that kind of "power" if you'll allow me to use that term. Joss has always tried to establish that whole "Love conquerors all" idea. Spike overcoming his "darker side", Angel forgiving Wes, Angels love & sacrifice for Connor. And don't even get me started on Darla. I think even with her Army gone, Illyria still had "power" , but I think she realized she couldn't beat Wes. For the first time she was not the all powerful queen lording over the human scum, she suddenly was in our shoes, and Wes showed compassion, when he had every right to rip the life out of her. He didn't. Was it all in hopes to get Fred back? to some degree, but I think even more so, it was to help preserve that simple faith & love that Fred had left as a part of him. Wow, do I ramble. Anyway my $1.42.

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"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Friday, March 25, 2005 3:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I finally saw the episode where Fred dies. Wow. ( Thanks TNT for the reruns! ) I hadn't got terribly interested in Angel 'till Firefly came around, and then started watching more and more.

While before I was only a casual fan at best, there aren't many character deaths that I can think of which are so powerful.

I think it's a combo of Illyeria being knocked down a peg and seeing Wes' pain that allows her to empathize w/ the sub creatures (aka - humans ) who use to worship her.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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