Kind of wish I hadn't watched Angel (SPOILER)... by altaira

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Kind of wish I hadn't watched Angel (SPOILER)...

POSTED BY: ALTAIRA
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 00:52
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7243
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Friday, March 2, 2007 10:56 AM

I am very late to the JossVerse. I found Firefly, then Buffy and then, of course, HAD to watch Angel. I had only seen a few episodes of Buffy and Angel on TV, so it was mostly new to me.

I loved Firefly. (Well, except for River.) I loved Buffy. (Well, except for Dawn.) and I thought Angel was good, bordering on great. (Well, except for Fred. What is it with Joss and uber-annoying, shrill females???)

The last episode of Angel was so damn bleak, it made the whole journey seem pointless. It's like Angel and what was left of his crew had a death wish and didn't want to live anymore. One last fight. All die. All a waste.

Bleeeccchhhhh! I'm still depressed a week later!

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Friday, March 2, 2007 11:18 AM

CHRISISALL

They mostly lived. And we would have seen it if not for the evil cancellation!

Let them continue in your heart Chrisisall

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Friday, March 2, 2007 11:18 AM

ESTHER

You speak my thoughts! I had the same feeling.

I knew Angel a bit longer, but since the last two seasons never aired here (Germany) I finally decided to buy them via amazon.com and just watched the last episode a week ago.

I, too, was annoyed. I mean, Heroes die. OK. That's kind of what they do. Any great hero is partly defined by his way of dying. But this? To take out a bunch of figures, who had been introduced just a few episodes before? It felt, as if Joss had lost interest and wanted just do get over with the whole thing.

I mean, just compare it to the end of Buffy, where Spike died closing the hellmounth and killing houndreds of deamons. And now? He must have been really disappointed with his second "final death".

And Angel just signing away the thing, he had set his hope on for the last 3 seasons? Just in oder to take out, what, a POLITICIAN? He had deserved better then to end in Hell again (remember, when he returned from it in "Buffy"?). I mean, I could have accepted it, if he had turned human just shortly before dying, but this ...

Ahhh, I am just ... so ... grrrrr! (Argh!)

Esther

Love my captain!

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Friday, March 2, 2007 12:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I also was late to the Jossverse, and had to back track Buffy and Angel to get myself all edumicated. I hope some can correct me, but Buffy ended pretty much as it was intended. The great lesson being taught. Not so w/ Angel. News of its cancellation caught the writers off guard, and they had to wrap things up earlier than expected.

Don't know what you have against River or Fred, but I found them to be adorable. Similar in some regards, but we've been through all that on another thread.

Dawn bothered me less than mini Carl Sagan....errr, Connor. But I didn't let either take away from the over all love for those shows.

Quote:
The last episode of Angel was so damn bleak, it made the whole journey seem pointless. It's like Angel and what was left of his crew had a death wish and didn't want to live anymore. One last fight. All die. All a waste.

Some did die, true. But not all. I suspect the big 3 still lived. Wes, we know dies. I'd not put $$ on Gunn making it either. Lorne probably ends up in some far flung lounge in the S.Pacific.

I know Connor came back to help Angel fight the Liaison, ( Adam ), but he doesn't stick around after that, does he ? I can't remember.

What's that saying " If nothing we do matters, than all that matters is what we do. " ? I think that's kinda the idea they went out on. They stood for what was good, and went out that.... doing what mattered most to them.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 2, 2007 12:51 PM

DEWRASTLER

I didn't like the ending when I first saw it either, but I've come to love it now that I've seen it a few times and had time to think about it. The whole idea of Angel is that there will always be Good and Evil in the world, but even when times get tough you can't give up. For the longest time Angel thinks he's fighting for atonement, but atonement isn't a one time thing. It's a way of life, and he had to fully embrace it. He wasn't fighting for the hope of being human, he was fighting for others. And in that fight, there is no end. That's why the world needs an immortal protector.

So the final episode of Angel ends in a fight because the fight never is over. Thats what the statement of the final episode is. Even when the world looks bleak and evil forces seem to control everything, there are still people out there who are willing to sacrifice all they have (like the hopes of being human) for others. If thats not a moving ending, I don't know what is.

The outcome of the fight wasn't important. Neither was who lived or died. What was important was that the good still fought, no matter what.

________________________________
"There's no I in team."
"Well there's no you in team eitther, and if I'm not on the team, and you're not on the team, who's on the damn team! This team sucks."

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Friday, March 2, 2007 1:12 PM

DEEPGIRL187

I loved the ending for Angel, personally, though it did have to grow on me. I think that it was the most fitting way for it to end given the team's circumstances. It may not be the happy ending that Buffy got, but Angel isn't meant to have a happy ending. And at least everyone went out doing something they believed in.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

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Friday, March 2, 2007 1:13 PM

SOLAN

Yes, yes, I too would have prefered a better ending for Angel. And yet I cannot help to think of a poem by some fellow named Cooke by the name of "How did you die". Good one, that. I keep it my wallet ever since I found it years ago.

Every fear has a history.

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Friday, March 2, 2007 2:28 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by altaira:
One last fight. All die. All a waste.

Considering how much Joss likes to tear our hearts out by killing people we like I'd say there is every reason to believe that everybody we saw alive at the end of the episode survived the fight. Plus Spike's 'last day on earth' was great. It really gave him a lovely character arc as well as being classic mutant enemy misdirection.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Friday, March 2, 2007 2:31 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by altaira:
I am very late to the JossVerse. I found Firefly, then Buffy and then, of course, HAD to watch Angel. I had only seen a few episodes of Buffy and Angel on TV, so it was mostly new to me.

I loved Firefly. (Well, except for River.) I loved Buffy. (Well, except for Dawn.) and I thought Angel was good, bordering on great. (Well, except for Fred. What is it with Joss and uber-annoying, shrill females???)

The last episode of Angel was so damn bleak, it made the whole journey seem pointless. It's like Angel and what was left of his crew had a death wish and didn't want to live anymore. One last fight. All die. All a waste.

Bleeeccchhhhh! I'm still depressed a week later!

I prefer to believe that everything from Darla having a baby on is just a bad dream.

Denialworksforme FMF

----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Friday, March 2, 2007 7:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
I prefer to believe that everything from Darla having a baby on is just a bad dream.

Denialworksforme FMF

So, you're ok w/ Darla coming back and even getting knocked up, just not the post pregnancy part?

Even ok w/ Cordy's fugly hair ?

I'm just askin'.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, March 3, 2007 8:32 AM

LEXAN

Quote:
Originally posted by altaira:

I loved Firefly. (Well, except for River.) ... What is it with Joss and uber-annoying, shrill females???)

River was the most brilliant and not annoying character Joss ever created...

If you were talking about Kaylee however...

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Saturday, March 3, 2007 8:41 AM

GLADIATOR32

Quote:
Originally posted by Lexan:
River was the most brilliant and not annoying character Joss ever created...

Agreed. My favourite Firefly character, hell my favourite Joss character, by a country mile

-------------------------------

www.myspace.com/32dan32

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Saturday, March 3, 2007 9:48 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
They mostly lived.

As the comics have confirmed AFAIK (my local comic shop sucks out loud, so I have to order things online, and have yet to be able to read a complete arc [I get some volumes, then everyone seems to skip an issue. Still looking for volume five of Spike: Asylum]).

BTW, everybody should read Spike: Asylum. It has Lorne in it, and he sings "The Ballad of Serenity" and comments that it's got a good message. Don't let anyone take the sky from you.

Yes. Lorne is a Browncoat.

Also: demons seeking counselling. Can't possibly be unfunny.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, March 3, 2007 9:50 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

You're where I was when it first aired. The idea of the characters "going out fighting" was at first really hard to take because I wanted desperately to know what happened to everyone. Still do desperately want that, but after a while it got easier, though, when I realized how fitting it was for the series and the characters. You'll get there, too, believe me. It just takes time.

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Sunday, March 4, 2007 7:30 AM

ALTAIRA

I appreciate everyones' input.

I haven't read any of the comics, or the fiction or any comments from Joss. So, I'm just going by the last scene of the last episode. All the characters had lost so much. Angel had signed away his chance for a soul. He'd lost his dream of Buffy, Cordy was dead and Connor wanted to live with his normal family. Angel seemd like he just wanted to be dusted.

Gunn was seriously wounded already and didn't look like he would last too long. Ilyria hated humanity and had lost the ony person who mattered to her (Wes). Spike seemd fed up, too. Lorne lived, but ended up a broken man.

Like they all given up and wanted to die. It seemed utterly sad and hopeless. Why go out when they could have continued to do good?

I agree that with minimal expenditure and a little tweaking in the editing, it might not have seemed so bleak. Perhaps pulling away from above and showing the sun coming up on an Earth that had been saved again (at least temporarily.)

Is there a commentary on the last episode? Would it make me feel better or WORSE to listen to it?

(Sorry to be so down, the ending just left me empty.)

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Sunday, March 4, 2007 9:58 AM

DEWRASTLER

They all didn't want to die, but they were willing to. A hero's life isn't all its cracked up to be in some fantasy worlds. Thats one thing that makes Angel special and unique (even though I'll argue that Spiderman is a good example of this also).

To be a hero you have to sacrifice everything that you want. You put what you have on the line so that others can have what they want in life. It should be expected that a hero has losses in their life. In "Not Fade Away" the Angel team only had one thing left to give, and that was themselves. They were not going to simply continue going through the motions of being a hero. They were going to step up to the plate and swing for the fence. That takes sacrifice.

A hero must brave the dark so that others can live peacefully in the light.

Is that bleak, some may think so. I prefer to believe that there are people willing to make these type of sacrifices, not for atonment or glory but because it is the right thing to do.

Angel and crew's lfe revolved around helping the helpless. Fighting for those who can't protect themselves. Thats why it was fitting for the last scened to be the crew fighting. And we don't see the end because this is a never ending fight. A sunrise over the city only lasts a moment, and then the struggle must continue. Thats the message of "Not Fade Away".

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do.

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Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:00 PM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by altaira:
I am very late to the JossVerse. I found Firefly, then Buffy and then, of course, HAD to watch Angel. I had only seen a few episodes of Buffy and Angel on TV, so it was mostly new to me.

I loved Firefly. (Well, except for River.) I loved Buffy. (Well, except for Dawn.) and I thought Angel was good, bordering on great. (Well, except for Fred. What is it with Joss and uber-annoying, shrill females???)

The last episode of Angel was so damn bleak, it made the whole journey seem pointless. It's like Angel and what was left of his crew had a death wish and didn't want to live anymore. One last fight. All die. All a waste.

Bleeeccchhhhh! I'm still depressed a week later!

I agree with you totally about the last episode of Angel, but I also believe that things went totally down hill once Angel and company took over Wolfram & Hart. Things just kept getting worse and worse, and poor Fred got the worst of it all. I liked the Fred character a lot. She was funny, delicate and smart. She was a very courageous and lovable person. The way in which she died was awful, but to find out that her soul was destroyed completely made me seriously question why does Joss like to take things that people love away from them? It's a theme I see throughout all of the works he's done. Someone must have taken away something that he cared about in his life and it hurt him to the point where it became a theme in all of his shows.

The good part was that the Illyria character in its own way made up for the loss of Fred. Illyria was a good character worthy of development. Too bad that didn't happen.

The ending of Angel was a complete waste of lives for me; a complete waste of lives for no real reason. Great! so they get to show the senior partners that they can slow them down for a few seconds...so fucking what!!!? The ending was the way it was because the show got canceled and they wanted to show our heroes making a final stand. It was a stupid ending, and I don't care what anyone says. It is an ending that can be interpreted in many ways and no one interpretation is the right way, so spare me the argument regarding this.

The whole Journey of Angel the show was a pointless affair.

-River

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Sunday, March 11, 2007 2:24 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

No argue, you're entitled to your opinion, as I'm entitled to mine.

I have battled severe depression for most of my life, and there were, at the very least, a couple of scenes/lines (specifically in Season 2 & 5) that saved me.

I will NEVER view the show as pointless, no matter the ending.

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Sunday, March 11, 2007 7:51 AM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
No argue, you're entitled to your opinion, as I'm entitled to mine.

I have battled severe depression for most of my life, and there were, at the very least, a couple of scenes/lines (specifically in Season 2 & 5) that saved me.

I will NEVER view the show as pointless, no matter the ending.

Don't get me wrong. After I finished the last episode of Angel I went back and started watching season 1 through 5 all over again. I did find most of it enjoyable which is why I purchased the DVDs in the 1st place, but it was the last two DVDs that really brought me down and made me think that the whole journey was for nothing. Also, I to suffer from depression, and a type II bipolar which I just found out about, so I am taking a boat load of medication to counter this, so trust me...you are not alone in this. Go figure.

Firefly, Angel, and BtVS are shows that kept me; keeps me somewhat sane with its entertaining stories of heroes, heroines and champions and their fight against evil. These shows fire my imagination and keeps me interested in things if that makes any sense. What's strange about it all is that except for Firefly the rest of the shows are technically kiddy shows. What I'm wondering is why do these shows have such a profound effect on my psyche? Why do I keep watching them over and over again? Who knows?

The last two DVDs of Angel was entertaining but made the whole journey rather pointless and I don't like that. The last episode of BtVS we got to watch our heroes standing on the lip of a crater that once was Sunnydale and the hellmouth. We got to listen to dramatic music as the camera slowly zoomed into the collection of surviving heroes with the final zooming in on Buffy's face. We got to see the smile of satisfaction and completion form on her face; a look that said a job well done. We didn't get this with Angel. We got to see our heroes totally outnumbered, and I'm certain they all died. I heard that some of them survived but since there is no show showing this, I will just have to take the last episode for what it was...a final stand.

I wish Joss would come up with another television series. That guy's writing can seriously drag the most cynical person into his stories which is a skill if you ask me, but one thing I totally hate about him is that he seems to get off completely with the destruction of very much loved characters; this is a problem, and seems to be a theme throughout everything I have watched that he created. My saying is that if Joss creates a show with good characters...don't get attached to them because they will just end up dead.

Go figure...

-River

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Sunday, March 11, 2007 10:19 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND

River, I'm pretty sure that NFA was written before they knew the show was going to be cancelled. I think that's how Joss always planned to end season 5.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 3:52 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

Serenityin Scotland is right. That's how the season would have ended no matter what. The only thing (according to Jeff Bell and Joss, I think) that happened because of the cancellation was Wes's death.

As much as I hated that Wesley (and Cordy, Fred and Lindsey) had to die, I still wouldn't give up having known them...for anything. And I still would've gotten attached...that I pretty much feel I had no choice in!

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Monday, March 12, 2007 7:30 PM

LEXAN

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

What's strange about it all is that except for Firefly the rest of the shows are technically kiddy shows. What I'm wondering is why do these shows have such a profound effect on my psyche? Why do I keep watching them over and over again? Who knows?

-River

Buffy and (especially) Angel are not kiddy shows. Why do you think this? Buffy may have a silly name but this is more a reflection of its ability to not take itself too seriously and treat the stories and issues it addresses with cheek than its childishness. Some people don't take Buffy seriously because it has a name that is seemingly more suitable for a soft toy and revolves around vampires and mysticism but this, as everyone here should know, is a misconception. I don't see how you can knowledgably say that Buffy is more of kiddy show than Firefly, which does address more mature themes but this is because it portraying a different stage of life. Buffy portrays the 'growing up' stage of life but it did more than enough during its seven year run to demonstrate that it is suitable viewing for all ages, though it is dependant on how perceptive the person is, regardless of age.

Do you think Angel is a kiddy show because it is also fantasy? I can sort of see why you think Buffy is childish but I thought Angel would never be distinguished as such.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:11 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

Somehow I missed the "kiddy show" reference the first time around. It dissappoints me to have any fellow Joss fan feel this way.

Sure, BUFFY the series was technically a metaphor for growing up, I'll grant you that, but to reduce it, and especially ANGEL, to the level of, say, FULL HOUSE or CHARMED, is pretty insulting.

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Monday, March 19, 2007 7:26 PM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Somehow I missed the "kiddy show" reference the first time around. It dissappoints me to have any fellow Joss fan feel this way.

Sure, BUFFY the series was technically a metaphor for growing up, I'll grant you that, but to reduce it, and especially ANGEL, to the level of, say, FULL HOUSE or CHARMED, is pretty insulting.

LoL!
"Full house or Charmed" is no where near the quality of BtVS or Angel. Don't get me wrong on this. BtVS and Angel are good shows in their own right, but they are shows that a person has to experience in order to see them as good shows; it takes time.

The 1st and maybe even the second season of BtVS comes off as rather "Kiddy" in nature, but from the 3rd season on the show takes on a more serious adult theme, and by the 5th and 6th season one finds themselves totally immersed in the BtVS universe to the point of complete soap opera frenzy. Put simply, BtVS got better which each season, but you have to admit that season 1 and 2 where pretty much tiny-bopper shows. I admit that 1 & 2 are good shows, but they are in no way compare to the drama of the rest of the seasons; I'm sure you understand that.

The show Angel took some time in finding its way, but in the end it did establish itself as a good show. It was too bad that it ended the way it did. It was a show of complete lost potential. All those undeveloped characters having to meet an end that was unbecoming of them; a pointless last stand…give me a break! What a waste if you ask me.

So what has Joss done lately???

-River

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Monday, March 19, 2007 8:46 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

The only way I could see your point is if someone were to watch eps. like "The Witch" and "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" and make judgements based on them alone. In that sense, I could agree that it could appear like SABRINA THE TEENAGE WITCH as a drama.

However, the opening scene in the pilot episode featured an ex-student being murdered by a vampire. Later on, one of the first characters we are supposed to care about (Jesse) is murdered, turned into a vampire, and gets dusted. Buffy's first love even turns out to be a vampire (formerly the most evil vamp ever), and in the next season, goes on a killing spree after having sex with her. I honestly do not see how a show that regularly features things of this nature could be considered "kiddy" or "teeny-bopper"...EVER.

By the way, it's been confirmed that there will a canon-Season 6 story for ANGEL in comic form, so we will find out what happened to the characters. The series finale was not originally intended as such (the ratings had been higher than ever when it was abruptly cancelled). Joss decided not to change his original intended ending for the season when he found out it had been cancelled. Some things were to have been explained in tv movies, but they never happened...it wasn't his fault.

Joss parted from the Wonder Woman project and is also working on GONERS, his next movie.

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Monday, March 19, 2007 9:02 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

And a (typical)'kiddy' show might occasionally tug at your heartstrings, but it will NOT make you think, invade your dreams, or inspire worship of it's Creator!

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:49 PM

LEXAN

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
BtVS and Angel are good shows in their own right, but they are shows that a person has to experience in order to see them as good shows; it takes time.

The 1st and maybe even the second season of BtVS comes off as rather "Kiddy" in nature, but from the 3rd season on the show takes on a more serious adult theme, and by the 5th and 6th season one finds themselves totally immersed in the BtVS universe to the point of complete soap opera frenzy. Put simply, BtVS got better which each season, but you have to admit that season 1 and 2 where pretty much tiny-bopper shows. I admit that 1 & 2 are good shows, but they are in no way compare to the drama of the rest of the seasons; I'm sure you understand that.

I disagree. I think if one saw a really high-quality, or even high average, episode of BtVS or Angel one would immediately understand why it so good, unless they are one of those people who just doesn’t get it. These people, however, are rare.

When you say the show got better with each season, do you actually mean literally? As in the best starts from 7 and then goes 654321? Interesting… I actually think season two touched on more mature themes than most of the other seasons and also conveyed a deeper and more applicable meaning.

Season one, I will agree, seems to appeal to a more teenage and below age group but wouldn’t say it is for ‘tiny-boppers’ as you said. The show was aiming for that age group when it first aired but when Joss knew it was successful it quickly progressed to something more.

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Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:00 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

Still, I can't see how Joss was aiming completely for that age group.

I'm not trying to look down on that age group exactly, but there are some key things that made it also mature enough to not alienate older viewers, the ones not put off by the movie, the title or the ages of the characters. Remember the murders? Plus, why hire 30 year olds (some who pretty much look it--not that that's a bad thing) to play teens when there are talented actors out there who are actually teens? Because Joss didn't want to hire just any pretty actor/ress. He wanted the cast to be right for the parts. He didn't just want teens and tweens to watch, he wanted these characters to matter...to anyone and everyone who could relate to them--even if it had been quite a few years since they were in high school.

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Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:11 AM

MAVOURNEEN

I cry every time I see the last episode...the scene with Illyria/Fred and Wesley

"Would you like me to lie to you now?"

Give me the shivers.
Love Angel, Love Firefly, Like (a lot) Buffy.

------------------------------------------------

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Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:03 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

Me too. Especially knowing that the decision to kill Wes was made only after the show was cancelled. Meaning neither were 'supposed' to happen.

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Thursday, March 22, 2007 5:25 PM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:
I cry every time I see the last episode...the scene with Illyria/Fred and Wesley

"Would you like me to lie to you now?"

Give me the shivers.
Love Angel, Love Firefly, Like (a lot) Buffy.

------------------------------------------------

Wesly's death seriously got to me, and yes I DID cry. I did not WANT him to die. I was really starting to enjoy the dark broodiness of this character, and Illyria turning herself into Fred was one of televisions best moment of offering "A piece of Mercy" that I have ever seen, or maybe I just don't get out much...who knows?

-River

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Monday, March 26, 2007 6:25 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

The 1st and maybe even the second season of BtVS comes off as rather "Kiddy" in nature, but from the 3rd season on the show takes on a more serious adult theme, and by the 5th and 6th season one finds themselves totally immersed in the BtVS universe to the point of complete soap opera frenzy. Put simply, BtVS got better which each season, but you have to admit that season 1 and 2 where pretty much tiny-bopper shows. I admit that 1 & 2 are good shows, but they are in no way compare to the drama of the rest of the seasons; I'm sure you understand that.

I must totally agree. And that's another reason it's all so interesting; it grows up!

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 3:06 PM

WTE

See, I think season 2 was the best of Buffy. From Surprise onwards it's the most emotionally invested I've ever been in a show, and rewatching the episodes still makes me tear up (and I'm really not usually the type). I think a truly mature show is one that pulls you in emotionally, even the themes aren't ones so often faced in adulthood. And for me, at least, season 2 fits the bill.

I also loved the end of Not Fade Away. How much more inspirational can you get? Angel signs away his humanity, and leaving him nothing to fight for (if one's still under the impression he was fighting to become human), and then keeps fighting for good anyway. Color me fanboy, but damn. I love it.

HONKS

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:52 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY

I loved the end of angel, I hated that it ended but I thought it was sublime in it's handling of the issues it covered. in fact the whole section from hole in the world to not fade away was my favourite part of angel overall, so I really don't understand how anyone can see it as pointless

"it's better to have loved and lost," and all that...

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"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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