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Originally posted by TheRealMe:
But the price of this happiness and love was one's free will. Nobody had a choice; they HAD to be happy.

If someone else so totally controls your life, are you alive at all, or just a toy, a puppet?

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Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
I thought there was an interesting contrast between Angel's battle with Jasmine to allow the world to retain its free will and his choice to erase Conner's memories. He effectively removed Conner's chance for redemption, which is strange considering what Angel has gone through in atonement for his actions. He allowed Conner to enter a state of blissful ignorance (similar to what Jasmine would have offered the world) in order to remove his suffering (like Jasmine would have offered the world).
I understand why Angel did what he did, but it was hypocritical. If it hadn't been for Vale, Conner would never have had the chance to make up for killing that girl in 'Inside Out'. And thanks to the network, we won't find out if he could!

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I guess the devil's bargain part comes in the form of a few giving up their lives for the many, and they give their lives happily, which in the long run works for humanity. Humanity would be happy with Jasmine until they aren't anymore, which would take a while until humanity learns to be more humane.

Go figure.

-River

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Originally posted by TheRealMe:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I guess the devil's bargain part comes in the form of a few giving up their lives for the many, and they give their lives happily, which in the long run works for humanity. Humanity would be happy with Jasmine until they aren't anymore, which would take a while until humanity learns to be more humane.

Go figure.

-River

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No, in my view EVERYONE under Jasmine's peace would be giving up their souls, their ability to decide, their free will.

Jasmine's peace was the joy in drugs. You weren't REALLY happy; you were just made to feel that way.

I never considered Angel' actions regarding Connor as a parallel to Jasmine, but they are! Yes, Angel wrongly took away Connor's ability to repent by erasing his memory of what horrid things he did. While done for understandable reasons, he was as wrong as Jasmine.

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Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Thank you for reminding me of that quote. I'm gonna borrow it and add it to my signature.

"In Joss We Trust."

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Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Very true!

One that has stuck with me is "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." The quote I use the most to pull me out of my 'funks'.

I used to have it taped to a mirror and I would always be asked what it meant. I took it down because I got tired of explaining it so much...I mean, isn't it obvious?! I know it by heart now anyway!

"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."

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Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".

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Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's an argument that's older than you think, River. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

For many, The Garden of Eden is the story of the evolution of human consciousness. When Adam and Eve were in the garden they existed in a state of blissful ignorance. They had everything they needed and wanted for nothing, but they were not aware of themselves.

When they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, they "saw that they were naked." They achieved conscious awareness for the first time. Hence they were expelled from the garden. Once they had become consciously aware, they could never be ignorant again. Instead of being blissfully happy, they became aware of hurt, suffering, need and everything else that comes with the human package.

That's the price we pay for human awareness - the loss of paradise, of ignorant joy. Is it a bad thing? I have to say no. If we were all still in the "garden" then sure, we'd be happy, but we wouldn't be what we are. We wouldn't really be human at all.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".

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When I referred to Jasmine as "parental", I meant that she was offering to take care of us and make all of the decisions while we went out and played in the yard (so to speak). If it means something different to you, fine.

Meanwhile, your assertion that you want a Jasmine to take over is kind of ironic, since you're saying that you would choose to have no choices whatsoever.





*Sigh*

Okay, here we go...

I don't think that Jasmine for myself in any way represents any sort of "parental" figure that I can think of. This may be what it means for you and that's okay, but I don't see it that way if that's alright with you?

And as far as I'm concerned our so-called free will has been nothing but a complete pain in the ass and has been the source of human history being written in blood. Sure when we aren't killing or making each other miserable we come up with nifty inventions, and occasionally develop certain new vaccines that prevents certain terrible diseases, but on the whole it seems that our default mode is making each other miserable. If we aren't taking something away from someone we are hoarding things that others need. If it isn't that its slavery, or war, or crime, or mean kids at the playground, or a husband that cheats on his wife or a child lying to his parents, or a President is lying to the people. This has gone on, and on, and will continue to go on because that is the nature of human kind; we grow by creating our own misery and then over come it just to create more misery and over come that...It goes on, and on, and on forever.

I would have no problem with a creature like Jasmine showing up and making humanity dizzy with happiness even if it eliminated the development of humanity. If humanity is eventually turned into sheep over a period of time due to Jasmine's spell, well, Song long humanity and thanks for all the fish is what I have to say about it, but the fact is I won't because I would be under the spell of Jasmine also, so no such thought would enter my mind.

Personally, I can't think of a better end for humanity. I guess it beats going out in a nuclear war.

-River

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Originally posted by oddness2her:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".

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When I referred to Jasmine as "parental", I meant that she was offering to take care of us and make all of the decisions while we went out and played in the yard (so to speak). If it means something different to you, fine.

Meanwhile, your assertion that you want a Jasmine to take over is kind of ironic, since you're saying that you would choose to have no choices whatsoever.

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Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
That's why I loved that season, cuz at the end you're not sure who won, the good guys or the bad guys. I mean Jasmine offered world peace, the only price was a little free will. Is that price too high? or is it reasonable for what she was offering?

What I always like to think about is that if Jasmine had been allowed to spread and hadn't been stopped, what would have happened between her and the first evil. Because remember thats the same time season 7 of buffy was happening.

It would have been an interesting showdown between Jasmine and the First, because world peace doesn't really fall into the first's plan.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
In asking what human free will does other than cause suffering, I would turn to another passion of mine - mountaineering history.
Some people would say dying whilst mountaineering is a singularly pointless death. One is basically putting oneself in a life or death situation with no tangible reward. George Mallory and Andrew Irvine, in 1924, set off from 26,000 feet to attempt to be the first men to summit Everest. They were lost in the clouds and nobody knows if they were successful or not. To me, this says everything about free will. They chose to set off that day of their own free will, to test themselves against unthinkable challenges (they were wearing tweed!) and to achieve nothing that would directly benefit anyone. Can you imagine Jasmine 'sanctioning' such a thing?
Mallory, upon questioned by a reporter why he was trying to climb Everest, famously replyed "Because it's there." However, one of his less well known, but far more eloquent, replies went "For the stone from the top for the geologists, for the knowledge of the human endurance for the doctors, but above all, for the spirit of adventure to keep alive the very soul of man".

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Putting it even more simply, I rather not do my own thinking for me anymore; I'm bored with the whole affair of free will.

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Originally posted by Shiny:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Putting it even more simply, I rather not do my own thinking for me anymore; I'm bored with the whole affair of free will.

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I know of a few cults that have openings...

It may be that some people would prefer blissful mind-controlled ignorance, but most would not...and Jasmine didn't exactly give people a choice, did she?

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I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's an argument that's older than you think, River. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

For many, The Garden of Eden is the story of the evolution of human consciousness. When Adam and Eve were in the garden they existed in a state of blissful ignorance. They had everything they needed and wanted for nothing, but they were not aware of themselves.

When they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, they "saw that they were naked." They achieved conscious awareness for the first time. Hence they were expelled from the garden. Once they had become consciously aware, they could never be ignorant again. Instead of being blissfully happy, they became aware of hurt, suffering, need and everything else that comes with the human package.

That's the price we pay for human awareness - the loss of paradise, of ignorant joy. Is it a bad thing? I have to say no. If we were all still in the "garden" then sure, we'd be happy, but we wouldn't be what we are. We wouldn't really be human at all.

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I wouldn't really call the current humanity "Human beings" because that is not what we are. I really don't know what we are but human beings is the wrong word for us.

I'll take the ignorant joy for $2,000 Bob Barker!

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Originally posted by DesktopHippie:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

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Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's an argument that's older than you think, River. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

For many, The Garden of Eden is the story of the evolution of human consciousness. When Adam and Eve were in the garden they existed in a state of blissful ignorance. They had everything they needed and wanted for nothing, but they were not aware of themselves.

When they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, they "saw that they were naked." They achieved conscious awareness for the first time. Hence they were expelled from the garden. Once they had become consciously aware, they could never be ignorant again. Instead of being blissfully happy, they became aware of hurt, suffering, need and everything else that comes with the human package.

That's the price we pay for human awareness - the loss of paradise, of ignorant joy. Is it a bad thing? I have to say no. If we were all still in the "garden" then sure, we'd be happy, but we wouldn't be what we are. We wouldn't really be human at all.

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I wouldn't really call the current humanity "Human beings" because that is not what we are. I really don't know what we are but human beings is the wrong word for us.

I'll take the ignorant joy for $2,000 Bob Barker!

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Nope, Humanity is still the right terms for us. We're the one species on earth that has the ability to redefine who and what we are. Okay, we suck at it, but we still have the ability to get better at it.

And that's pretty much what it comes down to - you can stumble around in a euphoric haze, numb to the world around you, or you can take a chance and live life - pain, fear, suffering, grief and all, on the chance that you can become something more too, that it might just be worth it.

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Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Okay, let me put it another way.

As much as you long for the eternal bliss of unconscious being, would you impose that choice on others? On every human? Every person existing in the world and every child that will be born? Would you deny them the chance to grow and become more than they are, possibly even changing the human race itself, for a life of bliss?

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