ANGELUS ARCANUM

From Fred to River

POSTED BY: CLJOHNSTON108
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 14:56
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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:17 AM

CLJOHNSTON108


I'm getting caught up on Angel through the transcripts, and I'm about a third of the way through Season 3.

I'm seein' a whole lotta River in Fred!

Was she Joss' prototype?

________________________

"Spry for a dead fella!"

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:31 AM

AGENTROUKA


I don't think she is so much a prototype but rather a child of the same source.

I think Joss just has a certain set of character "molds" in his head. Certain constructions of character traits and scenarios and patterns that show up again and again.

Firefly has lots of mirrors in the Buffy 'verse.

River certainly has both traits from Fred and Buffy. (Crazy-head teen fighting machine who was separated from her home and life and has to overcome the abilities she never wanted.)

Jayne has some Cordelia in him (the one who speaks the truth quite ruthlessly.)

Inara and Tara share some traits. Also, Inara and Cordelia, in a similar, less crude capacity.

Willow and Kaylee. (For that matter, also Fred and Kaylee.)

Simon, I could see being very Wesley.

Saffron and... Darla?



I think it's all about certain constellations that seem to appeal to him. Exploring a particular issue more than once and with slight variations, perhaps.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:32 AM

AGENTROUKA


Double post.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 7:50 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I definitely agree. Though in my personal opinion, Darla was much more sauve than Saffron.

Also, I think River has a little Drusilla in her.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Friday, February 23, 2007 12:28 PM

CLJOHNSTON108


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I think Joss just has a certain set of character "molds" in his head. Certain constructions of character traits and scenarios and patterns that show up again and again.


From "Quickening"...

Angel: "Cordy?"
Cordy steps closer: "You want me to protect the vampire bitch who bit me and her evil love child?"
Cordy hauls back and clocks Darla full on the nose, sending her stumbling back against the chair.
Cordy smiles at Angel: "Okay, I'm in."

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Friday, February 23, 2007 10:12 PM

LEXAN


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Also, I think River has a little Drusilla in her.



Really? I don't think so...

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Friday, February 23, 2007 10:40 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by cljohnston108:


From "Quickening"...

Angel: "Cordy?"
Cordy steps closer: "You want me to protect the vampire bitch who bit me and her evil love child?"
Cordy hauls back and clocks Darla full on the nose, sending her stumbling back against the chair.
Cordy smiles at Angel: "Okay, I'm in."




Downright unsettling, isn't it? *G*

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Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:23 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Lexan:
Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Also, I think River has a little Drusilla in her.



Really? I don't think so...



Well, I think it varies. Normally, River's brand of craziness is more Fred-like. But occasionally, she'll say some slightly creepifying like this:

Quote:

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds given adequate vacuuming systems."


or this:

Quote:

"He didn't lie down. They never lie down."


which reminds me more of Drusilla. I know it's not an exact match, but close enough to give the the slightest case of wiggins.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Saturday, February 24, 2007 4:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Crazy trapped girl w/ secrets in her head .....geee, where have we heard that one before ?

Buffy was crazy, and in an asylum. ( or was she ? )
River was locked up and made crazy.
Dana was a whacked out Slayer who escaped
Dru was completely off her nut, and still....sometimes made more sense than anyone.
Fred wrote stuff all over walls.... koo koo!
Faith was a bit whacked out of her head for a while too, no ?

I see a clear pattern there w/ some of Joss's characters. I've always wondered what his genesis for this was, what started the fascination.

What ever it was, I'm glad Joss was able to introduce us to them all.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:22 PM

DANIELFYRE


...yeah Joss does have a few reoccuring themes/character types, doesn't he?

The crazy girls, the brooding masculine types with a possibly dark past, the young girls who posess super strength, the impossible/forbidden love, loss on a personal and big scale, and of course the idea that a small band of friends can change or save the world.

-DanielFyre

"real men juggle geese"

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Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:39 PM

JWHEDONADDICT


Another point about "small band of friends" is that it's also Joss's way of saying that family isn't about blood. In each case, there's a deep loyalty that's always there despite the fact that some members can't stand each other (Mal/Simon, Buffy/Anya, Angel/Spike).

"In Joss We Trust."

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Another point about "small band of friends" is that it's also Joss's way of saying that family isn't about blood. In each case, there's a deep loyalty that's always there despite the fact that some members can't stand each other (Mal/Simon, Buffy/Anya, Angel/Spike).

"In Joss We Trust."




Kaylee - " But he could have made them family."

First thing that popped into my head when reading your post. Which leads to Kaylee and Mal's similar upbringings, I'm guessing.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, June 1, 2007 12:25 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


River and Ripley from Alien Resurrection.

Ripley had the ability to see the future and also 'sense' what was occuring around the space station.

[url= http://www.cirqus.com/loreman/loreman.html]LOREMAN]
www.cirqus.com

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Friday, June 1, 2007 1:31 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Well, there are several recurring themes when it comes to madness in the Jossverse.

Madness in the Jossverse is usually caused by cruetly and intense suffering. River was driven insane by the experiments on her. Fred was trapped in a hell dimension. Drusilla was driven insane by Angelus. Dana endured horrible suffering as a child. Even most of the crazy people in Buffy season 5 had been brain sucked by Glory. This isn't the case for all crazy characters, but generally when insanity is an important character trait, it's been imposed on that character by the actions of others.

Madness also allows you to see the truth. We all know River sees right through people, and Drusilla's madness allowed her deeper access to the sight so that she could tell the future. Even Fred's crazy writing on the wall periods gave her incredible insight into theoretical physics. Again, in season 5 Buffy only the mad were able to see Dawn's true form, which of course meant Tara accidentally revealed it to Glory. Dana's insanity inensified the visions of past slayers' lives to the point that she couldn't distinguish their lives from her own. Spike's craziness also allowed him to converse with The First before pretty much anyone else in season 7.

Finally, insanity doesn't make you an idiot. The crazy people in the Jossverse tend to be among the most intelligent and insightful - part of which comes from being able to see the truth clearer than most other people. For all her craziness, Drusilla was often a better schemer than Spike. River was a genius, and Fred seemed to be one too. Occasionally they were even able to use other peoples perception of them as a weapon - as with River pretending that she would be Early's bounty when she had in fact planned his death, and Fred pretending that she was going to kill Angel to save her own life before turning the weapon on her captors.




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Saturday, June 2, 2007 1:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Desktophippie wrote:

Drusilla was driven insane by Angelus.



I was under the impression that Dru was a bit daft already, as a human, thanks to her 'sight' powers. While Angelus might have pushed her some, I figured that the whole being an evil demon is what sent Dru over.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, June 5, 2007 2:11 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Desktophippie wrote:

Drusilla was driven insane by Angelus.



I was under the impression that Dru was a bit daft already, as a human, thanks to her 'sight' powers. While Angelus might have pushed her some, I figured that the whole being an evil demon is what sent Dru over.



Nah, they made it very clear that it was Angel tormenting her that drove her insane. He said as much to Buffy when she asked how he knew her, and the flashbacks in season two Angel made it very clear as well.




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Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:53 PM

WYTCHCROFT


i'm with the desk top hippie on the whole here - but just in terms of the words rivers uses when 'crazy' it is definitely Tara S5 that i hear as the prototype.

they eat mice



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Friday, August 10, 2007 1:38 AM

LEXAN


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:

Finally, insanity doesn't make you an idiot.


Of course; 'There is a fine line between genius and insanity'.

I disagree about River's insanity being similar to s5 Tara. Yes, it is less disimilar than to Drusilla's but there is still a clear distinction; what Tara said ultimately didn't make any sense in the context, yet River was able to define with her obscure words the real meaning of what was going on around her, far more than any of the other characters.

Therefore, I couldn't imagine River saying anything like 'They eat mice', unless in a symbolic fashion or perhaps in reference to somebody who eats mice.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:01 PM

WYTCHCROFT


just caught up with this!

my point was mainly the phrasing - and stuff...

but what you say about River is correct when it comes to how what she says has insight - it's hard not using it in a cliche way when i'm trying to write her character...


"Put your pen over there ya hack!"

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:56 PM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


can't remember the context of "they eat mice" but surely you're meant to assume it does mean something and have context to them...

one of my absolute favourite crazy bits which no one's mentioned yet (spose it's mostly been about the girls) is spike's 3-way conversation in same time, same place (buffy 7), it seems like gibberish if you're not getting the whole picture, but to him it makes perfect sense, it's genius,

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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