Was River really ' cured' after finding out the truth of Miranda ? by AURaptor

TALK STORY

Was River really ' cured' after finding out the truth of Miranda ?

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, February 13, 2009 00:30
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Saturday, January 3, 2009 7:47 PM

America loves a winner!

Watching SERENITY again, when the crew was on Miranda, and found out the secret, River said she was " ok " now.

Anyone know to what extent she was 'ok' ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:03 PM

COLE23

They didn't go into that enough in the movie.But,I think she was a good deal better.That secret seemed to be the thing that most ate away at her.In the novelization it says:

Now,though,she was back.Her wet eyes were clear for the first time since he liberated her eight months ago.
"I'm all right," she said again.
And Simon believed it.

I think she was on the road to healing rather than on the road to ruin.Also I believe she was able to "turn on" her abilities rather than have them triggered.That one may be a tough call though,because it was life or death.

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 8:38 PM

CHARLIEBZ

I always thought she was better because once triggered in the bar she was wackier than usual and knowing the secret helped with that. But no, I don't think she was cured. her brain was cut into! her amyg-whatever was stripped. How can knowing the secret fix physical problems?

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 9:04 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Watching SERENITY again, when the crew was on Miranda, and found out the secret, River said she was " ok " now.

Anyone know to what extent she was 'ok' ?

Well, at least some of her not being okay was a product of brain surgery to remove a part of her brain, which I’m assuming can’t grow back, then certainly, she can’t be all okay. The reason why she acts so impulsive and out of control is because most of her Amygdala was romoved. The Amygdala is located in the center of the brain, so just getting to it to remove it, would result in a fair amount of trauma to the brain.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 9:32 PM

COLE23

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBZ:
I always thought she was better because once triggered in the bar she was wackier than usual and knowing the secret helped with that. But no, I don't think she was cured. her brain was cut into! her amyg-whatever was stripped. How can knowing the secret fix physical problems?

That is a good point...

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 11:53 PM

AGENTROUKA

I agree with those who point out the physical trauma to River's brain. She will never be 100% okay and will likely always be dependent on medication in some way.

The best I see is that the Miranda secret was responsible solely for the crazy we see after she is triggered in the bar, none of what came before in the move or series. The secret got knocked loose and made River extremely anxious and out of control, which got "better" once they learned what it was.

I'm no fan of easy fixes.

Not to mention, the novelisation is so awful, I pretend it doesn't exist. It's.. ugh!

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:02 AM

GWEK

I think that just how much River is cured depends on the future adventures of our crew. If the movie is the end (and hopefully it's not), then, yes, the "cure" at the end of the BDM will stand as a suitable conclusion to her story arc.

On the other hand, if we see the continuing (canon) adventures of the crew, River will likely be nowhere neaer close to "okay." In fact, I tend to think that Mal is an idiot to put his ship in the hands of a crazy girl (again, works in the shorthand of the movie, but not so much in the "reality" of a continued series, or other tales).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:52 AM

ZEEK

Well she's obviously not totally perfect. When the reavers are surrounding them she loses it for a while. So, at the very least she's not in total control of her psychicness.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 3:31 PM

CHARLIEBZ

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
In fact, I tend to think that Mal is an idiot to put his ship in the hands of a crazy girl (again, works in the shorthand of the movie, but not so much in the "reality" of a continued series, or other tales).

I completely agree. A pilot given to psychotic episodes or who could be triggered by who knows what is not smart.

Off the subject, but when do ya'll over there at still-flyin' anticipate posting your post bdm installments? I'm really looking forward to reading your take on what happens next.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:11 PM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBZ:
Off the subject, but when do ya'll over there at still-flyin' anticipate posting your post bdm installments? I'm really looking forward to reading your take on what happens next.

Don't want to thread-jack, so I'll be brief: The short answer is "I don't know."

We need to reassemble the staff (a few of the writers left after Season Two), and I also need to figure out where and when I'll have time with a bay on the way. We WILL give you something sometime, though... But I want to make sure we have a few episodes we can push out in relatively quick succession (rather than 6 months between episodes!), so when we start work on the first few episodes, I'll get the word out.

If it's any consolation, I can tell you this: we already have a rough episode-by-episode outline for the season, so we KNOW what stories we want to tell; it's just a matter of finding the resources to tell 'em!

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:17 PM

UNDAFIYA

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Well she's obviously not totally perfect. When the reavers are surrounding them she loses it for a while. So, at the very least she's not in total control of her psychicness.

Yeah when i last rewatched Serenity, i remember noting that some time after she says she's okay she still ends up having one more crazy-moment, i think this is the moment i was thinking of.

Could just be a small continuity goof while writing though, that they forgot she was supposed to be better by then.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:35 PM

BRIGLAD

River wasn't really crazy in that scene... She yells out, "I can't shut them out, they're all Reavers!"

I think that with that many Reavers in such close proximity, River was temporarily overwhelmed. This combined with the stress of the situation, and you can't really blame her for curling up in a corner.

Then when Simon is shot, River pushes her fears aside and defends her family.

I have always liked Screw the Alliance's explanation for River's being sane in his Post BDM fanfics. It makes sense to me that with River's amazing intellect she is able to "out think" the removal of her Amigdula.

My $0.02 anyway

Brian

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

River was cured at that point, the second "OK" on Miranda. Joss said so, IIRC. Check the commentary from Joss on that scene.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Briglad:
River wasn't really crazy in that scene... She yells out, "I can't shut them out, they're all Reavers!"

I think that with that many Reavers in such close proximity, River was temporarily overwhelmed. This combined with the stress of the situation, and you can't really blame her for curling up in a corner.

Then when Simon is shot, River pushes her fears aside and defends her family.

Brian

I think that's the way of it, to be honest. It follows exactly how the events played out, up until Simon gets injured, she's snowed under with everything that's around her. After that, River's able to focus and bring herself back, and " turn on " her abilities. To save the crew, to save Simon.

As for piloting the ship, I took that as a moment, a point of reconcilliation between Capt'n and River. The previous time those 2 shared some alone time in the cockpit, River pointed and cocked her gun at Mal. This time, however, a level of trust was renewed between them, and a closer bond developed. I didn't get the impression that River would become a full time pilot for the ship, as any sort of replacement for Wash. I can see how some might get that idea, with Mal telling River about how to run the ship, but I see that as more he's entrusting to her a part of him, and that the ship is more than JUST a ship, it's home, it's a living thing, and it's a member of the crew.

I dobut River will ever be completely back to what would be considered 'normal' for her, but the days of slicing Jayne w/ a knife ( unprovoked ) or wandering around the cargo bay w/ a loaded gun are likely very much behind her. I see River still being prone to offering neat facts about how a body can be drained of blood in 8 seconds , given the proper vacuum conditions, or tell when others have spent time in jail, though less time than they'd claim...

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Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:41 AM

DREAMTROVE

Not cured. Okay. It's a different thing. She's still crazy, but now she has some ideas as to why.

I went through this with my own mental illness. When I understood what doctors couldn't, what was actually physically wrong with me, what made me crazy, I was okay. I knew that I had the knowledge to fix it, and now sometimes I wish I hadn't done so. Crazy is just a different state of being.

Consider it like you would a physical handicap. If you lose a leg in the war, then you adjust to that,, it doesn't mean you grow your leg back, it just means that you've come to terms with it.

I disagree that she's not perfect :) She's still wallpaperworthy. And thoroughly datable. I think that the dinnertable fights could be a bit much :)

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Sunday, January 11, 2009 10:10 AM

AGENTROUKA

I'd like to point out here the role that Simon's medication plays for River. People always, I think, underestimate the vast impact that "Ariel" and Simon's medication have in terms of stabilising River for the rest of season one.

Her own personal understanding of what is wrong with her likely plays a minor role in granting her any control over herself. How could it? It's not a psychological problem, and when her medicated stability goes whack, we'll see a River at the level of self-control of the early series. Track her mental state through the series:

"The train Job" (babbling), "Bushwhacked" (wandering off and unable to communicate to Simon why he shouldn't walk into the galley), "Shindig" (ripping off labels), "Safe" (angry fits and inability to comprehend real danger), "Our Mrs. Reynolds" (deleted: Incest, yay!) or "Ariel" (stabby stab stab, incapable of warning Simon).

After the adjustment episode of "War Stories" there is a noticable improvement in River, until that moment in "Objects in Space", but even there she is MUCH better afterwards, capable of communicating her thoughts to Kaylee and everyone during her deception.

What River's "better" in the movie likely refers to is the state of stability and relative self-control that she exhibits since those late episodes, not one of actual normality.

Mind, she will likely always be prey to halucinatory episodes like in "Objects in Space", especially when her medication needs to be adjusted, and that is perhaps the only part where greater awareness of her illness may help her, but I'm not expert.

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Sunday, February 8, 2009 11:53 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

River was cured at that point, the second "OK" on Miranda. Joss said so, IIRC. Check the commentary from Joss on that scene.

Joss said no such thing, really. Instead, he said: "She really is saner."

On the second "I'm alright", River (almost speaking to herself, really) realizes she's been released of a great burden: the memories that were not her own, and the continual instability they caused. It's a catharsis moment, is what it is. River, at that point, is a long way from being cured. However, remember when she said: "Things are going to get much much worse."? Well, at least that part is over: after Miranda things will only get better. But getting better is not the same as being better.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:47 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I'd like to point out here the role that Simon's medication plays for River. People always, I think, underestimate the vast impact that "Ariel" and Simon's medication have in terms of stabilising River for the rest of season one.

What River's "better" in the movie likely refers to is the state of stability and relative self-control that she exhibits since those late episodes, not one of actual normality.

What is really "normal" and who are we to judge - or for that matter, who are they to judge? The genius mind control experts putting Pax on Miranda? I suspect definitive normal is something Mal would rebel against. Recall that, apart from Simon, Mal seems to have the most understanding of River - and wonders if that is a bad thing, so might be most opposed to making her as controlled as the rest of Alliance scum.

I had found it a stark contrast from pre-Ariel, then Ariel, then next Episode is War Stories, River shoots without looking. River shows no signs of this aspect of her training before WS. She is helpless before Ariel. I had not seen that people underestimate the effect of her diagnosis from Ariel.
What has bothered me some is knowing that Joss intended for River-on-Miranda to be the end of Season 2, and all the episodes of River gradually getting better for the upcoming 30 episodes, but we see not much of that in the 4 eps after WS (other than, arguably OiS). What was in store for River in those eps?

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:30 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I'd like to point out here the role that Simon's medication plays for River. People always, I think, underestimate the vast impact that "Ariel" and Simon's medication have in terms of stabilising River for the rest of season one.

What River's "better" in the movie likely refers to is the state of stability and relative self-control that she exhibits since those late episodes, not one of actual normality.

What is really "normal" and who are we to judge - or for that matter, who are they to judge? The genius mind control experts putting Pax on Miranda? I suspect definitive normal is something Mal would rebel against. Recall that, apart from Simon, Mal seems to have the most understanding of River - and wonders if that is a bad thing, so might be most opposed to making her as controlled as the rest of Alliance scum.

First: Not all of the Alliance people are scum. If they were, why would they even care about the thirty million on Miranda? Clearly, they would have only been Alliance scum?

Second: The "normal" level of self-control (self, not outside) is what helps us live independent lives. River is not normally independent, but actually very dependent of medication to be actually able to communicate with the world around her. Not because she was born that way, but because they messed up her brain chemistry. She has violent mood swings, can communicate only in metaphors and is irrationally afraid of labels on cans.

If you don't like the word normal, replace it with sufficiently independent to live without brain-adjusting medication.

And I sincerely doubt Mal's empathy over River's cow comment (which was one of the least weird things she said pre-Ariel, seriously) negates that Mal helped Simon take River to the diagnostics ward of Ariel hospital. Or that he was telling Simon to gag River if he has to in "Safe". Mal isn't against giving River a sufficient amount of self-control to not feel continually helpless.

Quote:

I had found it a stark contrast from pre-Ariel, then Ariel, then next Episode is War Stories, River shoots without looking. River shows no signs of this aspect of her training before WS. She is helpless before Ariel. I had not seen that people underestimate the effect of her diagnosis from Ariel.

When people neglect the fact that River is going to need medication always - always - to stay stable, then they are underestimating the impact of her medication post-Ariel. And her diagnosis. Amygdala stripped. Pretty permanent.

Quote:

What has bothered me some is knowing that Joss intended for River-on-Miranda to be the end of Season 2, and all the episodes of River gradually getting better for the upcoming 30 episodes, but we see not much of that in the 4 eps after WS (other than, arguably OiS). What was in store for River in those eps?

Oh, I think we see improvement in her during those four eps. Playing with Kaylee, no panicky episodes... She's calm and in control of herself, even if communication with the others isn't perfect yet. It's better. But you are right in pointing out that the stabilising effect also puts her in touch with her gun conditioning, directly like in War Stories and indirectly like in Objects in Space.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Simon says they stripped her Amygdala.
Repeatedly.
Over and over again.
Stripped, not removed.

I had inferred that what had been stripped had kept growing back, hence the repetitive duplicate surgical stripping. I have only heard of it being a permanent condition fro people posting on forums, not from canon sources. You may choose to believe it permanent, I do not - until canon states so.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:05 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Simon says they stripped her Amygdala.
Repeatedly.
Over and over again.
Stripped, not removed.

I had inferred that what had been stripped had kept growing back, hence the repetitive duplicate surgical stripping. I have only heard of it being a permanent condition fro people posting on forums, not from canon sources. You may choose to believe it permanent, I do not - until canon states so.

They cut into her brain over and over. They only stripped her amygdala once, which he notices AFTER he mentions the over-and-over part. I'm sure they actually did more than that to her brain.

And brain tissue is not really in the habit of growing back. Once you cut in there, that cut remains. Why else would brain damage be such a serious injury? I think the onus is on you proving that a stripped amygdala could actually grow back.

ETA: I googled around a bit and found nothing on spontanenous regeneration of the amygdala.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:47 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

At yahoo search, "brain regrowth" spawns almost a million hits, one of the top ones covering such complicated and technically unfathomable topics as "brain exercises" to regrow brain tissue.
"stemcell brain regrowth" alone gave over 76,000 hits.
The Verse is 500 years in the future - have they made no progress? Does the Amygdala itself need to be regrown, or just portions of it which were stripped?

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Friday, February 13, 2009 12:30 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
At yahoo search, "brain regrowth" spawns almost a million hits, one of the top ones covering such complicated and technically unfathomable topics as "brain exercises" to regrow brain tissue.
"stemcell brain regrowth" alone gave over 76,000 hits.
The Verse is 500 years in the future - have they made no progress? Does the Amygdala itself need to be regrown, or just portions of it which were stripped?

But those would be deliberate treatments to try and regenerate it. Not spontaneous regrowth that the Academy scientists were battling with continuous cutting.

With neurosurgical treatment, maybe River might be healed, I won't argue against that possibility. Getting that treatment would be the gargantuan challenge. So long as she doesn't, her brain stays scrambled - remember, the amygdala was not the only thing they did to her. Needle in her brain, chemicals, behavioral conditioning, etc. Layers of psychosis.

Anyway, I see no evidence of her brain spontaneously healing itself, the way you implied.

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