Drugs in the verse. by jewelstaitefan

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Something in the back of my mind finally came to the forefront.

The overall story arc of Firefly/Serenity is of the horrors of the government using drugs (Pax) to control the population (Miranda) and the thrilling heroics of Mal & co to expose those shenanigans. Yet, all through the show, it's touted as admirable that Simon keeps cramming drugs into River in his attempts to better control her, or subdue her, or make her more controlable.

Because this just came to me recently, I may have missed some of the subplots or undercurrents of this conflicting message.

Anybody else already have this covered?

I think it's overtly simplistic to view the drugs Simon gives River as a purely negative attempt to "controll her".

River's brain has been purposely damaged, and without those drugs, SHE is suffering, too. Do you think she's happy in those months before Ariel, when she has no means to control herself and is getting progressively more volatile? She's prone to panicky episodes, has sincere difficulty communicating with others and gets so caught up in symbolic details that she defaces food packaging and attacks people with knives.

Simon convinces her to agree with his Ariel plan by pointing out the benefits of diagnosing and correctly medicating her. After Ariel, she has the mental stability to actually have fun with Kaylee and connect with her, instead of the rare disconnected moment of fun that mainly takes place in her own isolated universe, like dancing in Safe. Simon is the only one she can really connect to before, afterwards, she starts really bonding with Kaylee.

Sure she dislikes having to be drugged, but I doubt that Simon is forcing anything on River that she doesn't recognize she needs. That moment in Safe where she throws his medkit, viewed in the context of the scene, is more about River flashing back to what the scientists did to her than it is about Simon's attempts to treat her. Do you think she could have done what she did in Object In Space without the stabilizing effects of her medication? Compare that River to the one in The Train Job.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:54 AM

KATESFRIEND

There's no such thing as a drug without a side effect. It's just if you can live with them or not. It also gives us a love/hate relationship with them, or how easily something that should be so good for us can take us to the dark side. What a tool for dramatic conflict. River was healing psychologically, but who knows where Joss would have taken her.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:11 AM

NCBROWNCOAT

Drugs do have benefits and risks. My daughter has Asparger's syndrome (high end autism). One drug she took helped her through a tough time but caused tremendous weight gain. So she stopped it and had a very hard time learning to cope without it.

Take Pax, it likely would be useful in small individual doses for certain people but when applied planet wide, to multiple personality types, had horrible consequences.

Talk about dramatic consequences.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, July 31, 2009 5:24 AM

Well, this was a short-lived thread, eh? :-/

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 2, 2009 8:38 AM

I don't think the intent was to focus on the drugs. I think Joss et al were more about the Alliances need to control.
If it were another 'verse they might have used mind powers or alien parasites or somesuch, but this being the one with only humans of the common-or-garden variety in it they used drugs.

Joss doesn't seem to focus particularly on drugs - they featured in all his shows, but as far as i can remember (and i have the memory of a hamster, sorry) he seemed to condem alcohol more.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 3, 2009 11:13 PM

Sorry for not maintaining a hot exchange for this thread, I've gotten more restrictions at work now. I still enjoy the intercourse, tho.

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
I don't think the intent was to focus on the drugs. I think Joss et al were more about the Alliances need to control.
If it were another 'verse they might have used mind powers or alien parasites or somesuch, but this being the one with only humans of the common-or-garden variety in it they used drugs.

Joss doesn't seem to focus particularly on drugs - they featured in all his shows, but as far as i can remember (and i have the memory of a hamster, sorry) he seemed to condem alcohol more.

Alcohol isn't a drug? Which definition of drug excludes alcohol?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 3, 2009 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
Drugs do have benefits and risks. My daughter has Asparger's syndrome (high end autism). One drug she took helped her through a tough time but caused tremendous weight gain. So she stopped it and had a very hard time learning to cope without it.

Take Pax, it likely would be useful in small individual doses for certain people but when applied planet wide, to multiple personality types, had horrible consequences.

Talk about dramatic consequences.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

Not trying to be insensitive, but many have speculated that autism has causative factors in drugs, whether drugs in the water supply, drugs in vaccines, drugs from the hospital or doctors, etc. Using drugs to treat a drug-sourced malady may not be the best example.

Rather than specific applications of specific drugs, I was considering if the larger view, the overarcing juxtaposition of stories, was intended.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 3, 2009 11:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Katesfriend:
There's no such thing as a drug without a side effect. It's just if you can live with them or not. It also gives us a love/hate relationship with them, or how easily something that should be so good for us can take us to the dark side. What a tool for dramatic conflict. River was healing psychologically, but who knows where Joss would have taken her.

Do you think she would have healed completely? Were the drugs absolutely needed? Could she have weaned off them? Does she still need drugs after Miranda? Were the drugs just a tool to accelerate her learning to cope, learning to work around her disabilities? Were they just a catalyst for healing? Or are they a crutch she will need always, or for a long time? Are these 9 months just a form of "therapy" for her to adjust to the real world?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 2:03 AM

KATESFRIEND

I really don't know. Simon called it paranoid schizophrenia - surgically induced. If the illness was the result of the psychological stress of the subconscious knowledge of Miranda, then that stress was relieved by the BDM. She was functioning at an increasingly high level of reality throughout the later episodes of the show and absolutely the movie, as if she was healing and adjusting to her mind altered state. Certainly at the end of the movie, she was as normal for a mind reading genius to be, so I like to think that she would be healed by Miranda, as was Mal. What Joss would do is another story, but in my little world, River's healing is the happy ending that the movie needed.

In our world, this is what Wikipedia had to say about recovery:

Coordinated by the World Health Organization and published in 2001, The International Study of Schizophrenia (ISoS) was a long-term follow-up study of 1633 individuals diagnosed with schizophrenia around the world. The striking difference in course and outcomes was noted; a half of those available for follow-up had a favourable outcome and 16% had a delayed recovery after an early unremitting course. More usually, the course in the first two years predicted the long-term course. Early social intervention was also related to a better outcome. The findings were held as important in moving patients, carers and clinicians away from the prevalent belief of the chronic nature of the condition.[171] A review of major longitudinal studies in North America noted this variation in outcomes, although outcome was on average worse than for other psychotic and psychiatric disorders. A moderate number of patients with schizophrenia were seen to remit and remain well; the review raised the question that some may not require maintenance medication.[172]

A clinical study using strict recovery criteria (concurrent remission of positive and negative symptoms and adequate social and vocational functioning continuously for two years) found a recovery rate of 14% within the first five years.[173] A 5-year community study found that 62% showed overall improvement on a composite measure of clinical and functional outcomes.[174]

World Health Organization studies have noted that individuals diagnosed with schizophrenia have much better long-term outcomes in developing countries (India, Colombia and Nigeria) than in developed countries (United States, United Kingdom, Ireland, Denmark, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Japan, and Russia),[175] despite antipsychotic drugs not being widely available.

I hope this helps answer you rquestion.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Alcohol isn't a drug? Which definition of drug excludes alcohol?

None of them. I made the distinction only because its socially acceptable in most societies, and largely uncontrolled - i.e. you don't need a dealer or a doctor to get hold of it.

I don't think anyone I know has ever thought that a life long dependency on drug is good for all but the most untenable of conditions. Personally, i'm on anti-depressants at the moment - I resisted for years but i'm now taking them as something to help me function while other things like counselling and positive life changes kick in for a permenant (fingers crossed) cure.

If you don't mind me asking you seem entirely anti drug to the point that most people would find unusual - do you have a religious objection or a bad experience with them?

(and this post was bought to you by being up way past my bed time.)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 11:44 AM

Some people do have to take drugs their entire lives in order to remain functional. It's not a great solution, but even a caretaker can't be there ALL the time.

Then again, I do think we're all over-medicated and medication can be an easy way out. Look at all the addiction to painkillers. And I think some of the prevalence of cancer may be related to over-medicating. I think we've done maybe five to fifty years of research on some medicines, and we still don't know all that they might do and what damage they might cause. For that reason, I try to abstain from using any medication.

And when I was depressed, and I had to take anti-depressants, it wasn't the drugs that cured me, that's for sure.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 12:06 PM

no, to be hoenst i never expeceted them to, and they come with a whole problem set of their own - i'm really shaky all the time and my attentions span has shrunk to nothing plus loads of other crap. But it is letting me function and i'm even leaving the house.

mini-yey.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 12:16 PM

Hmm. That sounds a bit like anxiety. You don't think you're being treated for the wrong thing? I know for a fact I have had both. It's not easy to figure out where one ends and the other begins sometimes.

My anxiety is NOT cured. When I first started looking for work, I was almost crippled by the worry about how to get to interviews, how to perform in interviews, bus routes, so many myriad things to worry about. It was very hard for me to leave the house, and now and in the past to cope with stress, I escape onto the internet and into fantasy (like I'm doing right now). Sudden change and new uncertain activity can make me panic. And I'm also pretty much paranoid.

I guess the question I'm driving at, is your anxiety driving your depression, or is it, for certain, a side effect of your medication? Or is the medication exasperating symptoms of anxiety you had but did not express as much before?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 5, 2009 2:12 AM

Again, to be honest at one time or another i've been diagnosed with all of them (anxiety, depression, stress etc) It is hards to see where one ends and the other begins so I just tend to group it all together.

I'm looking forward to not having any of them, just as soon as i find out how to alter my brain.

Good luck, the paranoia is the worst - mine was mild, it just meant that half the time i didn't know i was reacting according to it. boh.

(and this post was bought to you by being up way past my bed time.)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 5, 2009 4:14 AM

What I meant was, seems like anxiety can lead to depression sometimes.

But yeah, sometimes all you can do is treat what you can and find something that works for you long term, a combination of lifestyle and medicine you can live with.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 5, 2009 3:44 PM

KATESFRIEND

If you can find a licensed acupuncturist in your area, treatment may help reduce the level and intensity of your symptoms. Imbalances in certain meridians can lead to obsessive thoughts that long term can create anxiety.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Alcohol isn't a drug? Which definition of drug excludes alcohol?

None of them. I made the distinction only because its socially acceptable in most societies, and largely uncontrolled - i.e. you don't need a dealer or a doctor to get hold of it.

If you don't mind me asking you seem entirely anti drug to the point that most people would find unusual - do you have a religious objection or a bad experience with them?

I am mostly anti-drug. Just say no, to some extent. I think far too many civilized nations have their citizenry moderated by drugs. Doctors keep far too many customers - err, Imean "patients" on drugs to keepn up their drug company bribes - err, kickbacks.
I am not opposed to individuals choosing to take drugs, but I do think many should have greater discretion with them.

I've known docs who have wanted me to take mind-altering drugs, and some who have wanted to study me on them.

I do use caffiene, mostly when getting ony 2-6 hours of sleep. I think many women rely far too heavily upon alcohol to get lucky - they should learn to select their mates in a more reasonable fashion. I do consume alcohol. I have used aspirin, other basic painkillers, and Drixoral and Ornade, back when both were prescription meds. I used codeine for a week after some surgery.
I firmly believe that the vast majority of "bi-polar" and similar cases are caused by drug use.
Most drugs are immuno-suppressants, or immuno-depressants, and abuse of them will lead to so-called "Immune Deficiency Syndrome" just as they state on their warning labels.

I lived for some time in the area around Madison, WI. Each year they have several Hemp Fests, Pot Parties, and Harvest Fests. The parade on the pedestrian Mall leading to the State Capital is educational, albeit amid the toosing out of free baggies of pot. Most of the women don't find a caretaqker for their child, so dragging behind all the pot addicted moms are what seems like the state's supply of Down's Syndrome kids. Pretty sad, but when a woman takes immuno-depressants to subvert the fetal-protecting physiological reactions and allow (or insist upon) birth defective conditions to exist, nobody should be surprised at the resulting birth defects.

Add the fact that many drugs cause far worse effects than the "symptom" they are supposed to treat, and it looks a fairly horrid picture.
Want to drink or chow down some insecticide? have some Diet Mountain Dew, or zero fat Ice Cream Bars, or NSA Chocolate Milk, or lowfat Hersheys Chocolate - they all have the tri-chloral chemical called sucralose in them - and when you get a headache from it, most of the aspirins now have it in as well, to give you more headaches to perpetuate your dependancy. This stuff can only be acceptable to those who think nothing of stuffing drugs into themselves. Same goes for aspartame, saccharin, high fructose corn syrup, and other chemical garbage.

I should stop before this sounds like a rant.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 5, 2009 11:44 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I personally found it kind of profound the way River asked "Is it time to go to sleep again?" in Ariel, and just looked at Simon rather sadly when he said it was time to wake up.
Not that I don't think Simon wasn't trying to help River, he clearly was. He cared for her and wanted her to be well. And maybe, with her brain sliced apart, nothing would make her truly sane or stable, and the best option would be the illusions created by drugs. But I also think the mind is an extraordinary thing, that can solve a lot of problems. Brains have been seen to re-wire themselves to compensate for things that might be damaged in some way. The nervous system is designed to regulate us, in all our chemical needs, and it's when the nervous system is out of whack that we have problems. I think it can actually be fixed, not just glossed over so many times it forgets its function.
Illusion is all drugs offer. They don't offer wellness, they don't offer a true cure for anything, they just make it easier to ignore problems. I don't condemn anyone who takes medications when they have a real debilitating problem, but too often I see medications taking the place of pursuing actual wellness, because they're easier. When it isn't a medication, it's alcohol or other non-pharma 'solutions.' They form dependency, all of them, because people who take them too much don't want to face what things might be like without them, and convince themselves that they can't. Ultimately, I think drugs deaden experience of life, both good and bad. They gloss over parts of reality that we might not like, and at the same time I think they can gloss over some of the best feelings in the world. Some of them can spark poor judgment, and all of them have unwanted effects.
I don't use anything beyond caffeine and the occasional painkiller. I limit painkillers as much as possible, especially since I read a tiny little study that said Tylenol was likely the leading cause of liver damage in the country. I find alcohol distasteful, literally I can't stand the taste or the smell, and I like to have all my faculties intact anyway. I find all forms of smoking stinky and offensive, so it never crossed my mind to do it myself. And when I've felt depressed or anxious, which has happened more than once, I find out why and I do my best to face it. Not a super-pleasant process, but it's worked so far. My support system usually involves chocolate and plenty of vitamins, which actually do seem quite helpful. Chocolate pretty much is an unrefined antidepressant. Being unrefined, it's harder to be totally dependent on it, something I want to avoid.
I'm kinda rambling. Sorry, it's late. The crux of this ramble, I guess, is that I think too much of the world is asleep, and doing their best to stay that way because being awake is less consistently pleasant. But I also think it's poison, in all senses of the word, and should be used in tight moderation, if at all. A lot of people disagree with me, plenty of people even think I'm quite mad to view things as I do, but I truly do think that life should be experienced, in its purest possibility, pain and joy, as intense as they can get, because you really can't have the good without the bad. Without either, you just float in existence, without really existing.
Without passion, we would be truly dead.

[/sig]

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 5, 2009 11:48 PM

MANGOLO

Quote:
Originally posted by Katesfriend:
There's no such thing as a drug without a side effect.

My doctor has me on finasteride. Possible side effects?

Lower libido, nipple sensitivity, male lactation, increased hair growth.

Luckily I haven't started lactating yet.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 4:20 AM

Look on the bright side; you could always start a beverage business!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 5:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I personally found it kind of profound the way River asked "Is it time to go to sleep again?" in Ariel, and just looked at Simon rather sadly when he said it was time to wake up.
Not that I don't think Simon wasn't trying to help River, he clearly was. He cared for her and wanted her to be well. And maybe, with her brain sliced apart, nothing would make her truly sane or stable, and the best option would be the illusions created by drugs. But I also think the mind is an extraordinary thing, that can solve a lot of problems. Brains have been seen to re-wire themselves to compensate for things that might be damaged in some way. The nervous system is designed to regulate us, in all our chemical needs, and it's when the nervous system is out of whack that we have problems. I think it can actually be fixed, not just glossed over so many times it forgets its function.
Illusion is all drugs offer. They don't offer wellness, they don't offer a true cure for anything, they just make it easier to ignore problems. I don't condemn anyone who takes medications when they have a real debilitating problem, but too often I see medications taking the place of pursuing actual wellness, because they're easier. When it isn't a medication, it's alcohol or other non-pharma 'solutions.' They form dependency, all of them, because people who take them too much don't want to face what things might be like without them, and convince themselves that they can't. Ultimately, I think drugs deaden experience of life, both good and bad. They gloss over parts of reality that we might not like, and at the same time I think they can gloss over some of the best feelings in the world. Some of them can spark poor judgment, and all of them have unwanted effects.
I don't use anything beyond caffeine and the occasional painkiller. I limit painkillers as much as possible, especially since I read a tiny little study that said Tylenol was likely the leading cause of liver damage in the country. I find alcohol distasteful, literally I can't stand the taste or the smell, and I like to have all my faculties intact anyway. I find all forms of smoking stinky and offensive, so it never crossed my mind to do it myself. And when I've felt depressed or anxious, which has happened more than once, I find out why and I do my best to face it. Not a super-pleasant process, but it's worked so far. My support system usually involves chocolate and plenty of vitamins, which actually do seem quite helpful. Chocolate pretty much is an unrefined antidepressant. Being unrefined, it's harder to be totally dependent on it, something I want to avoid.
I'm kinda rambling. Sorry, it's late. The crux of this ramble, I guess, is that I think too much of the world is asleep, and doing their best to stay that way because being awake is less consistently pleasant. But I also think it's poison, in all senses of the word, and should be used in tight moderation, if at all. A lot of people disagree with me, plenty of people even think I'm quite mad to view things as I do, but I truly do think that life should be experienced, in its purest possibility, pain and joy, as intense as they can get, because you really can't have the good without the bad. Without either, you just float in existence, without really existing.
Without passion, we would be truly dead.

Hmm. I don't disagree, but dead's maybe a little strong a term... None of those people want to die, and it would definitely still matter if they did.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 5:21 AM

Quote:
I personally found it kind of profound the way River asked "Is it time to go to sleep again?" in Ariel, and just looked at Simon rather sadly when he said it was time to wake up.

I'd say this is just your subjective reading of the sene, though.

I never got anything out of this scene that was anti-drug. And as we see later in the series, the drugs actually do help River.

While I don't particularly agree with people who are deeply sceptical of drug use, I don't profoundly disagree with the idea that in some ways we are overmedicated.

I just disagree that Firefly and River in particular are a good example of this, at all.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 8:07 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
dead's maybe a little strong a term.

Sorry, I was quoting Angel from the Buffy episode 'Passion.' The first part of the quote is in my current tagline; just seemed fitting.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I'd say this is just your subjective reading of the scene, though.

Well, we do all have those. Everyone sees something different.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
the drugs actually do help River.

Do they? Do they actually help her, or do they just give her brief moments of stability? ("I hate it because I know it'll go away.") Is what actually helps her the drugs, or is it getting the demons out?

[/sig]

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 8:24 AM

The way I see drugs is that they're a fallback while you work things out.

It seems obvious to me that Miranda can't be River's only demon. She didn't even seem to be aware of Miranda underneath all the other chaos and trauma until the memory was accidentally brought out when she was triggered. I see most of River's behaviour, through the series, as stemming from her trauma endured at the Academy. After all, it's what she has recurring nightmares and psychotic hallucinations about.

I think Simon was trying as best as he could to help River, and it's not that he was intentionally reliant on drugs or that he was just using them on her to control her for his own ease of mind, but that he doesn't really know how else to help her.

I also do think River was more stable, happy, and lucid after Ariel, right up through her triggering in the movie. I think the drugs may have helped her handle her scary monsters, just long enough that the light could shine through now and then. And a few moments of relief/comfort/fun/happiness can be very, very important when you're dealing with post-traumatic stress, because PTSD goes hand-in-hand with depression, and that can lead to suicidal thoughts.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 8:39 AM

MANGOLO

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Look on the bright side; you could always start a beverage business!

LOL! Manmilk?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 8:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
the drugs actually do help River.

Do they? Do they actually help her, or do they just give her brief moments of stability? ("I hate it because I know it'll go away.") Is what actually helps her the drugs, or is it getting the demons out?

Well, there would be the question whether you believe it's "demons" messing with her head or the fact that they cut into her brain.

I certainly don't buy for a second that the Miranda secret is the sole reason River's brain is scrambled and that she is anything close to healed then, even if the end of the movie might lead some to that assumption.

I do think that those periods of clarity - even if interrupted ny side-effects and periods of confusion - help River. I certainly consider her MUCH more stable at the end of the series than at the beginning.

ETA: Really, what Bytemite said. She's frustratingly good at saying much, much better what I actually mean. Except for how I don't think that controlling River for his own ease of mind is a big concern for Simon. If anything, he might be trying to control her for both their sake on the ship, considering Mal is less than amused when River makes noise with the cattle on board and suggests gagging her.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 8:49 AM

Controlling River is not a big concern for Simon, no. That's what I was trying to say. He is, honestly, trying to help, and he's doing his best. He just doesn't really know how, and that's nothing against him, because this would be a very, very hard case to treat, let alone cure. If that's even possible.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 9:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Controlling River is not a big concern for Simon, no. That's what I was trying to say. He is, honestly, trying to help, and he's doing his best. He just doesn't really know how, and that's nothing against him, because this would be a very, very hard case to treat, let alone cure. If that's even possible.

Yes, true. At this point, he is administering first aid to River. It's like a paramedic trying to deal with a chronically sick and unstable person, limited resources in every way. At this point, he's doing all he can to avoid further damage and provide relief.

If he had all resources at his disposal that research in the 26th century has made available, I'm sure there would be many different avenues of therapy or managing her condition for River, relying in different measures on drugs. These avenues are closed to them both. So he iss doing the best he can.

It kind of irks me to see that effort painted as a damaging, lazy or controlling thing, as if it would be as easy as letting River run free on the pastures and she'll be fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 9:18 AM

I seem to recall in the episode Safe that Simon had to pull River away from the dirty and sharp post-holers. The way he is with River, how careful he has to be to make sure she doesn't hurt herself in a lapse of cognizance, it speaks a lot about how much attention is necessary to take care of her.

It would be very irresponsible to just let her run wild... Even on Serenity. Plenty of sharp corners, sharp thinks, smuggling holes to get trapped in, maintenance panels with live electricity... etc.

Her treatment has to be a mix of therapy and drugs. I suspect River would outright reject further brain surgery (that Simon, being a trauma surgeon, would not have the training to give her), and for good reason.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 9:24 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Not that I don't think Simon wasn't trying to help River, he clearly was. He cared for her and wanted her to be well. And maybe, with her brain sliced apart, nothing would make her truly sane or stable, and the best option would be the illusions created by drugs.

Just wanted to make sure everyone saw that part of my post. It's said in the pilot, Simon's lost in the woods, and he's doing anything he can think to do, and I don't have a bad thing to say about his character. Had he not been a doctor, it might have been handled differently, or the same way with poor results, or not at all, it's hard to know.

[/sig]

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 6:17 PM

MANGOLO

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 7:54 PM

Excellent post, one of the types I was hoping to find in a thread like this. Thank you:

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I personally found it kind of profound the way River asked "Is it time to go to sleep again?" in Ariel, and just looked at Simon rather sadly when he said it was time to wake up.

For this scene, the most common correllary I thought of was in Twelve Monkeys, where Catherine (Madeline Stowe) was stuck in her little world of small comprehension, thinking drugs were the answer to everything, and Cole (Bruce Willis) knew better, and he would get in trouble from the future scientists who knew that any competent doctor would know not to inject drugs, and Cole must be lying about having drugs forced into him. Simon is stuck in his small world of miniscule comprehension, River knows better than to think drugs are the answer, but is humoring Simon by being his guniea pig.

Quote:

Not that I don't think Simon wasn't trying to help River, he clearly was. He cared for her and wanted her to be well. And maybe, with her brain sliced apart, nothing would make her truly sane or stable, and the best option would be the illusions created by drugs. But I also think the mind is an extraordinary thing, that can solve a lot of problems. Brains have been seen to re-wire themselves to compensate for things that might be damaged in some way. The nervous system is designed to regulate us, in all our chemical needs, and it's when the nervous system is out of whack that we have problems. I think it can actually be fixed, not just glossed over so many times it forgets its function.
Illusion is all drugs offer. They don't offer wellness, they don't offer a true cure for anything, they just make it easier to ignore problems. I don't condemn anyone who takes medications when they have a real debilitating problem, but too often I see medications taking the place of pursuing actual wellness, because they're easier. When it isn't a medication, it's alcohol or other non-pharma 'solutions.' They form dependency, all of them, because people who take them too much don't want to face what things might be like without them, and convince themselves that they can't. Ultimately, I think drugs deaden experience of life, both good and bad. They gloss over parts of reality that we might not like, and at the same time I think they can gloss over some of the best feelings in the world. Some of them can spark poor judgment, and all of them have unwanted effects.
I don't use anything beyond caffeine and the occasional painkiller. I limit painkillers as much as possible, especially since I read a tiny little study that said Tylenol was likely the leading cause of liver damage in the country. I find alcohol distasteful, literally I can't stand the taste or the smell, and I like to have all my faculties intact anyway. I find all forms of smoking stinky and offensive, so it never crossed my mind to do it myself. And when I've felt depressed or anxious, which has happened more than once, I find out why and I do my best to face it. Not a super-pleasant process, but it's worked so far. My support system usually involves chocolate and plenty of vitamins, which actually do seem quite helpful. Chocolate pretty much is an unrefined antidepressant. Being unrefined, it's harder to be totally dependent on it, something I want to avoid.
I'm kinda rambling. Sorry, it's late. The crux of this ramble, I guess, is that I think too much of the world is asleep, and doing their best to stay that way because being awake is less consistently pleasant. But I also think it's poison, in all senses of the word, and should be used in tight moderation, if at all. A lot of people disagree with me, plenty of people even think I'm quite mad to view things as I do, but I truly do think that life should be experienced, in its purest possibility, pain and joy, as intense as they can get, because you really can't have the good without the bad. Without either, you just float in existence, without really existing.
Without passion, we would be truly dead.

I had thought that the human brain's receptors for natural dopamine held a similar-formed bonding with a component of chocolate, thus making chocolate the substitute and simulation for health and pleasure - also an opiate had another similar bonding formation.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 8:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

It seems obvious to me that Miranda can't be River's only demon. She didn't even seem to be aware of Miranda underneath all the other chaos and trauma until the memory was accidentally brought out when she was triggered. I see most of River's behaviour, through the series, as stemming from her trauma endured at the Academy. After all, it's what she has recurring nightmares and psychotic hallucinations about.

The Miranda secret is the reason Hands of Blue and Operative are after her, right? so when she is being chased, and trying to evade, it is becuase of her subconscious knowledge of Miranda, right? Her coming into contact (merely telepathically) with Reavers on a regular basis also triggers in her subconscious the knowledge of their origin, their cause, that they are the original innocent victims of the Alliance, right? Most of her "traumatic scenes" in the series result from her knowledge of Miranda, and she keeps being reminded of this, albeit not consciously. I'm not sure your assertion that Miranda does not explain practically all of her episodes holds water.
Once the Miranda secret is out, she can handle the Reavers on a conscious level, and she has fuller understanding of the Alliance's pursuit of her, correct?
You discount her Institute flashbacks as just being trauma, but did you catch the mini-inserts of the groups of "doctors" or others present in her Institute recalls? I did not really take note of them until reading the scripts. She is recalling the times when "key members of Parliament" were present, which is when she absorbed the Miranda knowledge. Once Miranda is open, she no longer must struggle to suppress this part of her psyche.
The Miranda knowledge and the weapons/combat knowledge are a package deal - subverting the whole package allows her to pretend to be normal, but intentionally triggering the combat weapon also allows the Miranda data to fall out, as well as any other institute-derived knowledge. Supposedly males are able to better compartmentalize different types or applications of data or training, but supposedly females cannot compartmentalize as well, all the data from a certain period is glued together, interwoven too much to allow only one partition to be extracted.

Quote:

I also do think River was more stable, happy, and lucid after Ariel, right up through her triggering in the movie. I think the drugs may have helped her handle her scary monsters, just long enough that the light could shine through now and then. And a few moments of relief/comfort/fun/happiness can be very, very important when you're dealing with post-traumatic stress, because PTSD goes hand-in-hand with depression, and that can lead to suicidal thoughts.

Stable, happy, lucid like the cargo bay in OiS?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 10:14 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Some pretty good points in that speech, Mangolo. Background noise was a little distracting, but the talking was interesting.

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I had thought that the human brain's receptors for natural dopamine held a similar-formed bonding with a component of chocolate, thus making chocolate the substitute and simulation for health and pleasure - also an opiate had another similar bonding formation.

I think it also ups production of serotonin, I could be remembering wrong. Theobromine and flavanols are also theorized to lower blood pressure.

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
The Miranda secret is the reason Hands of Blue and Operative are after her, right?

And the Operative states that "judging from her deteriorating mental state" he and the doctor are better off not knowing what secrets River may have gleaned. The script has a line that was cut from the movie, too: "It has come to our attention that River became much more unstable, much more... disturbed, after you showed her off to Parliament." Miranda may not have been the only, but it was a biggie.

Quote:
Once the Miranda secret is out, she can handle the Reavers on a conscious level, and she has fuller understanding of the Alliance's pursuit of her, correct?

Exactly. She can face those nightmares in the daylight, so to speak.

Quote:
The Miranda knowledge and the weapons/combat knowledge are a package deal - subverting the whole package allows her to pretend to be normal, but intentionally triggering the combat weapon also allows the Miranda data to fall out, as well as any other institute-derived knowledge. Supposedly males are able to better compartmentalize different types or applications of data or training, but supposedly females cannot compartmentalize as well, all the data from a certain period is glued together, interwoven too much to allow only one partition to be extracted.

That... explains a lot. I never knew that. Cool, learning new things.
Can men really extract one 'partition' of an experience?

[/sig]

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 6, 2009 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

And the Operative states that "judging from her deteriorating mental state" he and the doctor are better off not knowing what secrets River may have gleaned. The script has a line that was cut from the movie, too: "It has come to our attention that River became much more unstable, much more... disturbed, after you showed her off to Parliament." Miranda may not have been the only, but it was a biggie.

Without the Miranda portion, the rest of the psych problems may have been resolved once removed from the stressful, constant Institute setting and indoctrination. Once escaped, these may have been easily dealt with - only the constant pressure of the Institute's "training" regiment maintained the problem, which they NEEDED to maintain to build on the established regiment of training. Perhaps only the Miranda segment of horrors was the block from which she could not escape, could not work around. She, and even Simon, had not apparently ever met Reavers, so learning of it in mere academic setting was not the same "filing away" process conducive to using it when abruptly encountering them in real life.

Quote:

Quote:
The Miranda knowledge and the weapons/combat knowledge are a package deal - subverting the whole package allows her to pretend to be normal, but intentionally triggering the combat weapon also allows the Miranda data to fall out, as well as any other institute-derived knowledge. Supposedly males are able to better compartmentalize different types or applications of data or training, but supposedly females cannot compartmentalize as well, all the data from a certain period is glued together, interwoven too much to allow only one partition to be extracted.

That... explains a lot. I never knew that. Cool, learning new things.
Can men really extract one 'partition' of an experience?

I was largely referring to the compartmentalization capabilites of men and women - there have been many studies of the subject.
I am told I have vast capabilities of compartmentalization, allowing great concentration and focus for deep thought (or used to anyway). As a guy, i can understand this part of the study well.
From much reading of the subject, I try to comprehend how the women view and recall the same information differently, but obviously I may never fully understand it.

Supposedly women have more interconnectivity among their experiences, thoughts, etc. When women "multi-task", they merely share their concentration among all the things they are doing, and think they are doing all tasks very well. Men are more able to "multi-task" by selecting specific functions they will chose to do, focusing on those tasks, delaying which are not as important at the instant, and successfully ignoring all else which do not pertain at the greatest level of need.

Consider driving a car. Many things can degrade from the optimal performance of operating a motor vehicle. Radio, conversation, road noise, vehicle noise, phone or bluetooth conversation, horns, traffic noises are audio input, and road view, dashboard instruments, environmental landscape, lights, flashers, signs, symbols are visual input, plus physical input of g-forces, brake feel, steering wheel feel/feedback, arm/leg stress & force & feedback, all contribute to the peformance of operating the motor vehicle. A woman might choose to flit from one facet of the experience to another, multi-tasking while thinking she is maintaining more than one converstaion and still driving safely - even if she causes an accident. A man may try to supress, ignore, or eliminate specific facets of the experience to allow adequate focusing on the required tasks at hand - and if involved in an accident must understand how many more facets needed to be addressed by suppression to have avoided the accident.
The term used is "task attention saturation" - paying attention to too many things until a critical task is compromised.
If you had any understanding of the Clinton coverup of the Kara Hultgreen investigation, it provides an excellent description of the fatal flaws of attention saturation.

I had somewhat extrapolated the effects of this on the memory process. I hear that women recall things as very interconnected - some song is directly connected to some technical thought is connected to some emotion is connected to some work task is connected to some fragrance or color. Men can recall something more as a consequence of the logical progression of thought which arrived at or derived from that thing in the past. What I did on one day at my work would not be connected in my mind to some activity I did at home or play unless somehow intrinsically connected - even tho they happened on the same day.
These are generalities, of course, but you may read about the studies for better grasp, I'm sure. I may have given a poor explanation.
I used this to suggest that is how River had it all connected inside her head - all the Institute-related problems - Miranda, surgical stripping, Key memebers fo Parliament, Hands of Blue and Operative, subliminal triggers, combat training.
Make sense?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 7, 2009 6:17 AM

It's not ALL the time, remember when just after the scene in War Stories when she is happy, how she quickly regresses to being incoherent and upset again?

But she's able to play with Kaylee, in the Message the crew feels she's stable enough to wander the space station without Simon looking over her shoulder constantly, in Heart of Gold she helps with the labour (though we don't know how much), and in Objects in Space, after her brain took a little walk and she hallucinated about autumn, she pulled together and formulated a plan to get Early off their ship. I can pinpoint a lot more moments where she looks and behaves stable and happy after Ariel than I can before.

As for Miranda being in her traumatic flashbacks during the series, actually, no, I don't see that. The one flashback I recall is her in a darkened room in the experiment chair, hooked up to wires and a probe heading for her head, and we don't see anyone around her. That tells me her trauma is the whole government scientists hurting her thing as opposed to Miranda. Trauma occurs as a fear of or harm actually being done to oneself or to others, or as intense feelings of fear and helplessness, not as a side effect of being exposed to secrets. Miranda is not what traumatized her.

Do Reavers remember what they are? Somehow I doubt it. And River seems less like she's able to read their memories and more like she's overwhelmed by the rage and aggression, not because she's remembering Miranda, which should have no personal psychological impact on her.

I hate broadly generalizing psychological studies that try to claim they are the irrefutable truth for EVERY individual in a population. Those studies speak ONLY in percentages (that is, if they're any good, and not merely the products of the biases of the experimenters). And they shouldn't ever be USED as case-by-case commentary because they're NOT case-by-case examples!

However, I don't disagree that triggering her weapon training also triggered her memories of Miranda, likely BECAUSE it was during weapons training that the members of Parliament observed her.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 7, 2009 10:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I should stop before this sounds like a rant.

Oh no worries, if you can't rant here, you can't rant anywhere.

I pretty much agree with you on most of that - it is absolutly shocking and disgusting what the government passes for use, not only in food for humans, but also food for the animals and plants that we'll eventually eat - i mean who thinks 'yeah, lets feed animals their minced up relatives, throw in a cocktail of drugs to alter their natural growth patterns in ways we have no idea about - won't it be great!'

Meanwhile the E.U is demanding the (expensive, time consuming and largely illogical) testing of thousands of herb and plant based remedies, despite the fact that we already know about them because we've been using them for centuries and the properties and contraindications can be found on ANY wafty website.

And whereas i'm dubious of need to cut out some of the foods they say to, i really can't tolerate smoking or drug use while pregnant (a while ago there was a group story thread and drinking while up the duff was the worst self destructive behaviour i could think of for a character).
It gets to the point where i do think that women who refuse to give up smoking or go into rehab when they are pregnant or have a child in the house should be fined or even maybe prosecuted for abuse. Beat a child and you (should) get put away, give them a life long health issue that comprimises their quality of life and costs everyone else millions in medical care? Apparently that a human right.

I'm also astonished at the reliance on painkillers. I do take them - way more than i'd like to, but way less than i'm told too.
I've done everything i can to get the doctors to investigate headaches and their best answer is take pills, pills and more pills. I pushed to the point where i managed to get scans to look at my sinuses to see if there was a problem there, when the scans came back clear the doctor shrugged, told me to take pills and all but told me to f*** off so he could get some paying patients in. Mean while i'm still getting headaches that come on sometimes simply by bending forward.

Ranting is good.

But, i think i have seriously over shot my 'personal sob story' quota so i'm going to butt out now.

x

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 7, 2009 4:31 PM

And that sounds like a blood pressure issue to me. You ever get dizzy, bending over? Is your headache more of a poundy thing? Do you see spots?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 7, 2009 4:41 PM

Huh. Well, and for the movie, there is a bit of disconnect between it and the series. Personally, I never saw any hints of Miranda in Firefly. I believe Joss did have something about Miranda planned, maybe for the second or third season, and in the movie he had to make some jumps to get there.

I guess this situation with Miranda being the sole cause of River's disturbance is the same problem I have with how Joss has claimed since the movie that River is fully cured now after having gotten the Miranda secret out of her. I just don't see how it's possible. Her brain was cut into and I just see general evidence of abuse. And the way her brain was cut into would make it even harder for her to deal with the abuse.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 8, 2009 11:16 AM

No visual disturbances and the only thing that is perfect about me is actually my blood pressure.

And my earlobes.

I can't see how the Miranda secret coming out would have 'cured' her either. It was a major obstacle to recovery overcome, and one other the things that was aggravating her problems resolved, but her problems would still be there.
(and this post was bought to you by being up way past my bed time.)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 9, 2009 10:21 PM