perceptions by boris

Let's see, I learned to accept my inner geekdom in college when it became clear that we rule the world ;-)

I don't fit the typical mold though because in the 7th grade, I got tired of being spat upon and so started going out for wrestling and then took up Jiu-Jitsu. I found I liked in and became an athlete. I had trouble in high school because the jocks (different from athletes) couldn't figure me out and the debate geeks couldn't understand why I consorted with the enemy. High school sucks any way you slice it so I have parked as much of that baggage as I can.

It took many more years to realize that we limit ourselves by pigeonholing and so I try very hard not to.

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 3:45 PM

BORIS

I know lots of lovely sports mad keen and some lovely kindhearted science fiction loving Jocks. Weeks ago I was told I'm a cool geek with fashion sense which is apparently different from a nerdy geek with poor social skills.??? Kids at work think I'm cool because I like Halo, Monster Trucks,Fashion and pizza,and I deal with their behaviour "creatively". A couple of the boys said they particularly like the fact that I always have something wicked funny to say even when I am in trouble...I'm not sure exactly what they meant by that, but they are young and observant so there must be something in it.

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 3:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:
I got tired of being spat upon and so started going out for wrestling and then took up Jiu-Jitsu.

I had fun telling the bullies to f**k off after taking karate. They have no power once you give 'em THAT look. Heh heh. Oh, and twice I had to back it up, wasn't so bad getting the last strike in.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 5:35 PM

FREELANCERTEX

I never did take too kindly to karate. Tried it, didn't like it :\ dunno why.

I might like kick boxing better, if I ever tried it...hm..

then again I never really needed to defend myself as a geek. Found out real quick that if I didn't react they eventually got bored and left me alone :P nice, quiet years...

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 7:35 AM

I won't deny that enlightening a certain arrogant fool as to the physics of force and leverage in the guise of a well timed hip toss felt good. However doing it in the cafeteria during lunch in front of the football coach did get me talked about.

I was very steamed that the coach was allowing "his" player the priviledge of physically intimidating those smaller than him but got all bent out of shape and was going to have me expelled for "fighting" when "his" player got smacked down hard on the tile floor and got a bloody nose.

The only thing that saved me was that it was the fact that it happened in front of twenty other geeks (it was a Chess Club gathering) and we geeks stick together (Thanks brothers and sisters!). When it became clear that the coach couldn't bully his way to his version of the "truth", it was swept under the rug.

I said earlier that I had parked my high school baggage but in typing this, I find I have not.

This sort of behavior perpetuates itself and the coach was not only enabling it but modelling it. The travesty was, the coach was allowed to retire at the end of 35 years in the school system. He should have been fired.

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 7:57 AM

Not every jock is a bully, but all bullies are cowards.

I see the fear behind their eyes. I do not quail, I do not show pain or satisfy them. They gravely underestimate me and how far I am willing to go in the name of their victims. Because when I finish them, the coup de grace, it isn't a physical blow. I show them what they are. I reflect their murderous temptations and I feel disgust.

It isn't mercy why I spare them. If it could be called that.

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

It isn't mercy why I spare them.

Good one!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 8:01 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse

What generally got me through life was knowing that one day,the pricks who puffed out their chests and acted like they were God's gift, would eventually be calling me "Boss".And I would take great pleasure in terminating their employment.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 8:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:

This sort of behavior perpetuates itself and the coach was not only enabling it but modelling it. The travesty was, the coach was allowed to retire at the end of 35 years in the school system. He should have been fired.

Welcome to the jungle.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 9:05 AM

I agree, it is a jungle. But we affected the outcome by standing up for what's right in the face of a bully. As was posted elsewhere, bullies are cowards, often because they are insecure. They tend to cave when the going gets difficult. I have a history of making things difficult ;-)

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 9:08 AM

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 11:35 AM

LWAVES

We have no need to fear for the one true book said it best:

"Blessed are the geeks for they shall inherit the Earth"

Nuff said.

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 11:57 AM

I'm a bona-fide geek.... who happens to be fairly tall. I'm so tired of people assuming I play basketball (I suck).

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:

I was very steamed that the coach was allowing "his" player the priviledge of physically intimidating those smaller than him but got all bent out of shape and was going to have me expelled for "fighting" when "his" player got smacked down hard on the tile floor and got a bloody nose.

Not to imply that intimidation should be permitted.... but actual physical violence can't just be overlooked either.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 12:07 PM

ZEEK

There seems to be a lot of hate coming out of this thread. Can't we all just get along?

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 12:31 PM

Well, I suppose I could have been more specific. He had his arm around my head, cranking my neck at a very painful angle in an attempt to give me what is commonly called a "Nuggy". I protested loudly for which I was rewarded with an "Atomic Wedgie". It was during this attempt to make the waist band of my underwear touch my shoulder blades that I got my feet planted and was able to take him to the ground. It was an assault, pure and simple and the coach looked on it with the "boys will be boys" attitude until his player got hurt, never mind the fact that certain tender parts of my anatomy ached for days after that.

You are right though, there is a lot of strong emotion about an event from 35 years ago. I hadn't thought about this in years as my life has gone in other, mostly good directions. We should try to get along.

I'll go this far. I forgive the football player as he had been raised as a priviledged individual (as sports stars often are) and didn't believe that normal behavioral standards applied to him. I don't think it occurred to him that it was more than just goofing around until he hit the tile.

The coach, on the other hand was an adult charged with the supervision of students in a public place. I have a ways to go to forgive him yet.

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 12:59 PM

Zeek: Some things aren't forgivable. I've seen bullies damn near kill their victims. I have never regretted stepping in, standing up to bullies, and making sure it doesn't happen again by right hook or by crook.

There are atomic wedgie bullies, and there are strangle-weaker-students-behind-the-school-after-hours and gang rape bullies. Both are merely a reflection of the same systemically perpetuated sadistic social flaw. One of them just hasn't been able to get away with as much. Both are entirely, completely unacceptable, and I think their victims are entitled to self defense without fear of reprisal. And if they aren't, that's where *I* come in.

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 2:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:
Well, I suppose I could have been more specific. He had his arm around my head, cranking my neck at a very painful angle in an attempt to give me what is commonly called a "Nuggy". I protested loudly for which I was rewarded with an "Atomic Wedgie". It was during this attempt to make the waist band of my underwear touch my shoulder blades that I got my feet planted and was able to take him to the ground. It was an assault, pure and simple and the coach looked on it with the "boys will be boys" attitude until his player got hurt, never mind the fact that certain tender parts of my anatomy ached for days after that.

Yeah, the context adds a lot. And to clarify - I'm a high school teacher, so I deal with this kinda thing. I personally would have shut down that player looooong before it got to that point - but hey, I hate bullies AND sports, so he'd get no sympathy from me.

Technically, a situation like that, I would be expected to turn both kids in for discipline, but honestly, I would probably turn a blind eye to your retaliation in this case.

And that coach was a dick.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 2:29 PM

geek and bully are not discrete categories: they overlap. i'll give you that geeks may use different tools than football players when it comes to belittling people--but thats all i'll give you, besides a wedgie and some purple-nurples.

you all know, deep down inside, that bullying is a delightful, and inescapable facet of human nature. people love and need heirarchy, and bullying is a wonderful way to establish it. and also, mother nature is intoxicated with cruelty.

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Wednesday, February 3, 2010 11:39 PM

BORIS

Bullies really can't cope when the geek they think they are going to intimidate takes em out both physically and intellectually. Bullies at my all girl catholic high school learned fast that I fought dirty. even if they did manage to beat me up I always did permanent physical or mental damage...so they pretty much gave me a wide berth. e.g. just before lunch one day a bully was bleating on about all the pain she was going to cause me after school, I basically smiled at her and said something like "what's stopping you from doing it now you devolved troglodyte" and smacked her in the face with my locker door. her bleeding nose and my week of lunch time detentions were worth it.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 5:53 AM

Hey ubermensch. Your nihilism is showing.

Unfortunately, it's a common misinterpretation of the idea that Nietzsche is promoting complete amorality. Actually, his idea of the ubermensch is not that they're amoral, but that they have developed and live by their own MORAL code. Everyone else just assumes that means a selfish code. The Ubermensch however is supposed to gather people to him through the strength of his own personal convictions on right and wrong, and not bow to the majority (religion, law, authority).

Calling nature "cruel" implies that she cares one way or the other about any of us. We're not that important.

Now PEOPLE, are people cruel? Do we delight in cruelty? Is this something to be embraced? You'll find differing opinions, but generally I stand for a big no. A person can be independent and get what they want and need without duplicity (the geek) or cruelty (the jock). Those who choose darker paths to get what they want and need have been taught or learned to do so because they were deprived. And as for hierarchy, what teenager does NOT rebel? The entire purpose of our system is to train independence and defiance out of people, until everyone is Nietzsche's Last Man. No one thinks critically, belief is a half-hearted nod at the same old control systems with a happy life after death message no person is able to obtain. No passion, no will to stand for anything. Life is meaningless so we might as well kill each other in meaningless wars. That is true amorality and THAT is how Nietzsche has been RE-interpreted because that is in the best interests of those who would control you.

Rather than playing games with your rivals, you would do better to turn as one on the people who are pulling your strings.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 6:57 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Zeek: Some things aren't forgivable. I've seen bullies damn near kill their victims. I have never regretted stepping in, standing up to bullies, and making sure it doesn't happen again by right hook or by crook.

There are atomic wedgie bullies, and there are strangle-weaker-students-behind-the-school-after-hours and gang rape bullies. Both are merely a reflection of the same systemically perpetuated sadistic social flaw. One of them just hasn't been able to get away with as much. Both are entirely, completely unacceptable, and I think their victims are entitled to self defense without fear of reprisal. And if they aren't, that's where *I* come in.

Oh I have no problem with standing up for yourself. The problem is when someone takes pleasure in causing someone else pain. I don't care who started it at that point. Anyone having fun hurting someone else has some issues they need to work though.

Quote:
Originally posted by boris:
Bullies really can't cope when the geek they think they are going to intimidate takes em out both physically and intellectually. Bullies at my all girl catholic high school learned fast that I fought dirty. even if they did manage to beat me up I always did permanent physical or mental damage...so they pretty much gave me a wide berth. e.g. just before lunch one day a bully was bleating on about all the pain she was going to cause me after school, I basically smiled at her and said something like "what's stopping you from doing it now you devolved troglodyte" and smacked her in the face with my locker door. her bleeding nose and my week of lunch time detentions were worth it.

This is what I'm talking about. I call this crossing the line. Even if you want to say this girl "had it coming" you shouldn't be taking pleasure in giving someone a bloody nose.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 7:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
geek and bully are not discrete categories: they overlap. i'll give you that geeks may use different tools than football players when it comes to belittling people--but thats all i'll give you, besides a wedgie and some purple-nurples.

Could you back that up with something - anything?

I'd love to hear how the geeks picked on you....

Quote:
you all know, deep down inside, that bullying is a delightful, and inescapable facet of human nature. people love and need heirarchy, and bullying is a wonderful way to establish it. and also, mother nature is intoxicated with cruelty.

And you should know, that as humans, we have the ability to rise above our base instincts, though many choose not to.

I'd like to know where you are coming from here - because from what you wrote, you kinda sounds like a (presumably) ex-bully who felt justified picking on geeky kids because they made him feel dumb or something.

Not saying that's true necessarily - but it's how your post reads to me.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 7:23 AM

Actually, Storymark, mincingbeast is an okay guy.

But he really is a nihilist, which is both why he said that, and why I posted that seemingly non-sequitor response.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 7:26 AM

Further clarification, I am a college professor and have similar duties and responsibilities. And yeah, the coach had more than a passing resemblance to a certain portion of the male anatomy ;-) That wasn't the problem. The problem was a double standard of behavior.

At the college level, I am not a favorite of the the coaches because I require homework and I don't allow coaches to proctor exams on the road, I do it myself. I have also asked students, (not just jocks btw) to leave class and not return until they can fake behaving like an adult. My dean, bles him, backs me up all the way.

The double standard still exists but fades some when you hold it up to a bright light. After a day of thought, I still don't forgive the coach, but I am calmer. Hope all of you never cross pathes with a bully again ;-)

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 8:26 AM

I didn't think it was a non-sequitor, I rather liked it.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 8:26 AM

i respectfully submit that glasses, and other signifiers of geekdom, do not make someone incapable of cruelty towards the weak.

when i was a lad, i was a geek, and the least among geeks. in my little world the geeks would get picked on, and in turn pick on me. i dreamt of the day when i would have someone to protect me, or at least someone to pick on of my own.

i can not blame my bullies. everyone needs someone to pick on, whether or not they know it, and i was an easy target: stuttering, dim-witted, poorly dressed, tiny, and socially obnoxious. At least the tiny part has changed.

i admit with no pride that when i was strong enough to bully, i dabbled in it. i was surprised to discover that it did not make me feel good, but rather guilty. i still have a bit of bully in me, and you do too, and thats human nature.

perhaps i can channel my aggressive and boarish tendencies and bully other bullies, and become an apex-bully? unlikely. i think the best we can hope for is feeling guilty.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 8:35 AM

Ah. So, misunderstanding then. We DO all have bullies in us. And normally, the guilt is the discouragement. Sort of a whole "Who you are in the dark" thing.

I think there's a difference between people who are not bullies and people who are regularly bullies, however, and who enjoy it.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 8:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hey ubermensch. Your nihilism is showing.
B]

Give me a moment while I tuck it away again...okay, all better. Thanks for bringing me back to earth.

I'd like to think that Nietzche is something that I outgrew, but your words resonate with me. granted, i prefer him on literature to philosophy. anyway, my particular brand of adolescent nihilism is probably closer to bokonon from vonnegut's cat's cradle (or the jackass from artsits for immediate nuclear war that steers the narrator away from nihilism).

in hindsight, i may have left the impression that i am a reaver, or at least and advocate for bullies. its a subject i have very strong opinions about, none of which are to my credit. human cruelty is a source of endless fascination for me, especially the point where bullying turns into a legally cognizable harm.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:04 AM

The issue is, I suspect, that we are not inherently rational, but in fact are emotional and rationializing in nature. We tend to do things driven by emotion and then use our relatively new skills at rationalizing to make it seem like we either had no choice or that it was, in fact, the best choice.

I see the logic Nilihism and the comfort in the belief that our decisions aren't important, the world will devolve (if it hasn't already) to a completely nasty and evil place.

I also see the seduction. Nilihism suggests or has been interpeted to suggest that all we do is pointless and it's better to lead a completely hedonistic life because it doesn't matter and in the end, once we are gone, no one will care.

I am seduced by a different world view. In the movie "Secondhand Lions" the old warrior Hub, played brilliantly by Robert Duvall, has "the speech that all young men should hear". You never hear the whole thing but the exerpt is very moving. Here it is.

" Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good. That honour, courage and virtue mean everything ; that power and money ... money and power mean nothing. That good always triumphs over evil. And I want you to remember this.... that love....true love never dies ! Remember that boy ... remember that. Doesn't matter if it is true or not, a man should believe in those things , because those are the things worth believing in...... got that ? "

I submit that it is a completely emotional premise and that I am using my powers of rationalization to convince myself that it is in fact enough of the truth to build a life on. But I have from time to time, been the "good guy" tha Hub speaks about, and it is glorious!

To paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinus's argument about religion, if Nilihism is in fact the way of the world, what harm have I done in believing differently as I have been happier this way than many other ways to live and it really won't matter. But what if Nilihism is wrong?

Again, I freely admit that this is an emotional view of the world, colored by my rationalizations and love of the printed word ..... And if that isn't good enough for you, sue me

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:09 AM

Mostly the reason I posted what I did is I wanted to be clear to everyone that you're coming from a different direction here. In general there's nothing WRONG exactly with being a nihilist, it's like any personal philosophy, though there are types/applications of nihilism that concern me. But you don't have to call it adolescent. It's how you feel about things.

I figured (assumed?) that your philosophy had something to do with your statements, so I was preemptively heading off any misunderstandings by providing background. Nihilism is poorly understood, thanks to hollywood stereotypes about nihilism and Nietzsche.

And I also wasn't accusing you of anything really, but rather trying to see what kind of nihilist you are. Sometimes people aren't aware of the ubermensch idea, or if they are, they think the ubermensch means rejecting all morality, not acting in the face of the majority morality when it's immoral.

And in regards to Nietzsche, I know what you mean. I disagree with a lot of the philosophy, but the man certainly had literary oomph and writing style. Some really excellent imagery. Mostly I'm just frustrated about how he inspired so much of the "life is pointless, let's all die, black is my soul, bloody tears from my eyes" emo stuff when he was arguing AGAINST it. Consequences and misunderstandings abound.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 9:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:
And if that isn't good enough for you, sue me :winkno:

at last, a new, more adult venue for bullying, far more deadly than the wet willy: the law suit. as soon as i can think of an appropriate cause of action, i am going to sue you. for serious.

i completely agree that humans are inherently irrational creatures, reason poor, but rich in mechanisms for rationalizing the ridiculous things they do. sometimes i catch myself in the act, and its almost funny.

however, nihilism is an emotional worldview, not a rational one, and i would never offer an intellectual defense of nihilism. its not defensible.

nihilism is seductive because it is easy. its negation, simply rejection of meaning. that said, i cant resist it, and its actually kind of comforting, in a way. not really a foundation for building a life on, however. anyway, its a good point of purchase for bullying, because it implicates the same problems about responsibility and the greater significance of our actions.

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:07 AM

I feel kinda bad for you.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 4, 2010 10:49 AM