TALK STORY

holy Breaking Bad jeebus OMG!! (possible s5 spoilers, but not in the OP)

POSTED BY: MAL4PREZ
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 15:55
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/18qXVO3
VIEWED: 6947
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Monday, September 16, 2013 8:50 PM

MAL4PREZ


I can't find any recent threads about Breaking Bad. Is anyone else watching this show? I just caught last night's episode and I'm devastated. This thing is intense. Crazy. 100% nuts in the insanity. I don't know how I'm going to think about anything else and function as a rational human being until they resolve something, anything for these characters. And there are only two episodes left!

Gah! Ah!

*pulls hair out*

OK, I think I may be able to get up and go to work tomorrow as usual, but I'm just saying... daaaam! Double damn! Right now it's hard to move on!

Please, someone say they watch too and understand.

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Monday, September 16, 2013 11:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Please, someone say they watch too and understand.

Yes.

Given my own trials and tribulations with our so called medical care industry, hatred for the "War on (some) Drugs", and the general insanity of control which allows situations like that to develop and fester, of *course* I watch it, when I've the time.

Select to view spoiler:

And being a bit of a science geek who specialized in stuff that goes boom, when he says "This... is not meth" and goes to pitch that bit of crystal, I was like HOLYSHITTHATSMERCURYFULMINATE and ducked, while everyone else was going "huh?!" till the boom happened.


-F

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 1:46 AM

FREMDFIRMA


In fact...
Imma spoiler-tag this whole bit, just in case, although there's very few in there, mostly I felt a need to explain certain things from a perspective most normal and decent folk lack, and point out a moral lesson kinda buried in the background here.

Select to view spoiler:


About Walter:

Here's the rub, outside of a rare few, including the writers of the show, and it boggles where and how they might have learned it, normal folks are fundamentally INCAPABLE of understanding Walter because the cognitive gap is just too wide to breach without a plank...
So imma try to offer one, not sure why, but I feel I need to.

See, Walters primary and overriding motivation isn't what folks think, ain't even what WALTER thinks, cause he obviously has a tendancy to lie to himself, which along with the situation kind of precludes the necessary level of introspection for him to examine or admit it.

That motivation ? - downright hate, hatred for our world, our society, and everyone in it.
If the situation had been only just slightly different, Walter would have been just one more mass shooter, because that's the mindset we're dealing with here.

Look at Walters life, an endless conga line of being pissed on, while the folks pissing on him dance off well rewarded, from this so-called-partners (cause while it's not directly explained, smart folk can figure out how they played him) at Grey Matter, to being stuck in a job that SHOULD be respected but is not and poorly paid besides despite the mountain of debt required to obtain the education to do it, being pushed around by some pissant car wash owner, and finally taken to the cleaners by the medical care/insurance racket, and all of those factors get rewarded for it while Walter, in repayment for trying to be a decent, civilized guy, winds up drowning in piss.

Heisenberg was "born" the very MOMENT Walter decided he wasn't just going to take it, dying in a slow and futile fashion from ineffective treatment while his family was buried in debt, and while that bitter seed took some time to flower, that right there *WAS* the point-of-no-return, the course from there may wander, but it's conclusion was all-but-inevitable, and why ?
Because he *wants* to die.

He just wants to do so in a fashion that does as much harm to the world and society that did him over as possible, wants to be the one doing the pissing, and see how THEY like it.
That much he does know, as his little "I am the one who knocks!" bit could have just as easily been "Now it's MY turn to do the pissing!" (and get rewarded for it).
Don't mistake that for pride or ego, although even Walter believes it is - that's hatred.
You could cover the world in gasoline and hand him a detonator and he'd laugh as he flipped the switch, okay - and no matter his often all too fervent personal denials this hasn't changed one bit from the very beginning of the whole mess.

Once you understand that, well and truly grok it - everything Walter/Heisenberg DOES makes perfect sense, is thoroughly predictable and ultimately inevitable, because he is the end result of a society that rewards such malice and sociopathy while punishing anything resembling kindness or decency.

Seriously, go out there into our messed up world and look into the hurt, angry, hating eyes of those stomped on by it, and in almost every pair, who do you see staring back at you ?

Heisenberg.

And the answer to THAT, is not breaking *people* badly enough to create them in the first place.


-F

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 4:35 AM

MAL4PREZ


About Walter...

Select to view spoiler:


I disagree for the most part. I think you're projecting your own hatred of society onto him. Sure, old Walt hates his life and a big part of becoming Heisenberg is escaping from the suffocation of his system, but hey - he brought it on himself. He put himself exactly where he was. He didn't just hate the system, he hated what he himself had become.

His true underlying motivation is his need to be almighty. He was supposed to be a genius chemist founder of the billion dollar company, worshiped and admired by all. Every room is supposed to go hush when he speaks. Instead... well, look at where he was at the beginning of the series. Pathetic and weak and mocked by his students and his own brother in law.

There is no reason to think that he was a poor innocent victim in the Grey Matter affair. I saw pretty broad hints that he was the ass in that situation and later convinced himself that it was all THEIR fault and they were unfair to him because he couldn't handle blaming himself for blowing it.

Sure, he wanted to help his family, he wanted to buck the system that had him pretty well cowed, but his greed for power was what really won out. He continually dug himself deeper because he wanted to be a big bad and he wanted everyone to know it. He loved being the kingpin of a whole empire.

He didn't want to destroy the system. He just wanted the system to serve him.



Anyhow, certainly Walt is a complicated character who could be debated for days, but that's not what's killing me.

Select to view spoiler:


What in the hell did Walt just do to Jesse?

Jesse is the only character on this show who really has a heart. Certainly he's done bad stuff and made shitty choices, but he is the only one who *feels* for other people. Even Hank had absolutely no respect for the humanity of criminals, even though he broke the law himself. Jesse was the heart and conscience of the show, and I think for the middle part of the series he was the tether that kept Walt from going all evil. Walt knew and managed his feelings for his family, and ignored the harm he did them when it was convenient, but the father thing with Jesse was beyond his control.

For me the backbone of the series was this weird Jesse/Walt father/son thing, and I've been hoping, though I knew it was unlikely, that Jesse would eventually get some kind a pat on the head. There isn't a character in the world who needs a good long hug and cup of hot cocoa more than Jesse.

But that's not possible now. Even if flash forward Walt miraculously finds his heart and means to save Jesse, it's just not possible. Jesse has been completely destroyed, and no kindness can bring him back. It was cruel of the writers, to take out the heart of the show like that. I don't know what they can do in two more hours to earn my forgiveness.

Hey, it's a brilliant show, I don't mean I hate the writers or anything because I don't expect happy-happy, but they really broke my heart with this one. Walt twisting the knife about Jane? Shit! Brutal. That was horrible.




*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Yah, that was awful...

Select to view spoiler:

Well yes, but I think that's a (very major, admittedly) secondary motivation, Walters insane pride and massive ego are certainly a factor, but if you watch closely you notice that there's a few points where they really SHOULD become an issue, and either flat out don't, or get steamrollered by the pure rage which is the fire stoking it.

And yeah verily, Walter's an ass, so is Hank, Skyler, Marie, Jesse - the characters are complex, human, instead of one-dimensional, which make this so well done, even that geezerly old bastard Tio wasn't wholly malicious.
The "cousins" were DECIDEDLY creepy though.

One thing I don't understand is why because he acts all nice and polite, how people like to give Gus Fring such a free pass, he was planning to murder Walter and jack his formula from DAY FREAKING ONE (thus saving him a huge bundle of money too, yes?), and what had him so pissed off wasn't Walter and Jesse being unreliable, it was that Walter knew it and kept working against it, cause Gus's main berserk button was being outsmarted by ANYONE, even in his final moments his reaction wasn't fear, but anger at being outplayed.

So when Mike throws that whole "If you'd kept your head down and played nice" speech at Walter, that *REALLY* pisses Walter off cause if he had done so Gus would have killed him in short order, and this enrages Walter and hits all of his trust-pride-ego issues on top of it, provoking him to kill Mike.

But you are right in that most of all he hates himself, he's gone lost, because somewhere in there what he was doing became more important to him than the reasons he was supposedly doing it for, and buried under the lot and finally rising was that, in short, HE wanted to be the one doing the pissing on, and reaping the rewards, yeah - even as he despises himself for what he has become.

As for the whole Gray Matter incident, I don't think *any* of them were innocent, but he blames himself for (in HIS mind, true or not) being the "better man" and bowing out, and what it cost him, and that festering resentment is why he'd not accept any help from them.

As for the part about Jesse... how to put it, Walter KNOWS he's on the short path to total selfdestruct, and I know this may sound a bit strange but emotionally Jesse needs Walter far, far more than Walter needs Jesse - I think in a VERY twisted and demented sort of way Walt did that to shove Jesse away, to cut him out and away from the nuclear shitbomb which is gonna be the end of walts life, to hurt him ENOUGH to keep him from coming back and getting caught in the blast.

Which really, shows just how far off the deep end Walter has gone - in fact I found it almost jarringly out of (current) character for him to try to save/protect Hank, that made utterly no sense at all in context with everything else he's done recently.

About the only question left is what kind of blaze of glory Walter plans to go out in, and whatever it is, no way its gonna be pretty.
I too am kind of hoping Jesse doesn't get caught up in it, but admittedly the odds ain't good.


Ruminating on it for a while, I think Walter was maybe a little bit "broken" even long before any of the story events played out, it was just that the collective weight of stress broke down his coping mechanisms, and once a person believes they got nothin left to lose, when no real hope remains for them - violence follows as inevitably as day follows dawn, it was just in *this* case, most of the 'violence' occurs a step or several removed from the viewers frame, but it most certainly does occur, with tragic results... especially when you think of the consumption end of Heisenbergs distribution chain, and how ugly THAT business would be, though it's not often shown directly.


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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:22 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


How Shakespeare Would End Breaking Bad
Quote:
The show has accurately been compared to a Shakespearean tragedy, and it's clear that the Bard's works have influenced Vince Gilligan, the show's creator. Perhaps, then, one might turn to the works of Shakespeare to try and divine how Breaking Bad might end—or at least, how Shakespeare would end it.
www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/09/how-shakespeare-woul
d-end-em-breaking-bad-em/279553/

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 11:58 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Please, someone say they watch too and understand.

Yes.

Given my own trials and tribulations with our so called medical care industry, hatred for the "War on (some) Drugs", and the general insanity of control which allows situations like that to develop and fester, of *course* I watch it, when I've the time.

Select to view spoiler:

And being a bit of a science geek who specialized in stuff that goes boom, when he says "This... is not meth" and goes to pitch that bit of crystal, I was like HOLYSHITTHATSMERCURYFULMINATE and ducked, while everyone else was going "huh?!" till the boom happened.


-F


Did you see the Mythbusters special? They tested out that exact scenario. Alas, it did not work.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 12:01 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
About Walter...

Select to view spoiler:


I disagree for the most part. I think you're projecting your own hatred of society onto him. Sure, old Walt hates his life and a big part of becoming Heisenberg is escaping from the suffocation of his system, but hey - he brought it on himself. He put himself exactly where he was. He didn't just hate the system, he hated what he himself had become.

His true underlying motivation is his need to be almighty. He was supposed to be a genius chemist founder of the billion dollar company, worshiped and admired by all. Every room is supposed to go hush when he speaks. Instead... well, look at where he was at the beginning of the series. Pathetic and weak and mocked by his students and his own brother in law.

There is no reason to think that he was a poor innocent victim in the Grey Matter affair. I saw pretty broad hints that he was the ass in that situation and later convinced himself that it was all THEIR fault and they were unfair to him because he couldn't handle blaming himself for blowing it.

Sure, he wanted to help his family, he wanted to buck the system that had him pretty well cowed, but his greed for power was what really won out. He continually dug himself deeper because he wanted to be a big bad and he wanted everyone to know it. He loved being the kingpin of a whole empire.

He didn't want to destroy the system. He just wanted the system to serve him.



Anyhow, certainly Walt is a complicated character who could be debated for days, but that's not what's killing me.

Select to view spoiler:


What in the hell did Walt just do to Jesse?

Jesse is the only character on this show who really has a heart. Certainly he's done bad stuff and made shitty choices, but he is the only one who *feels* for other people. Even Hank had absolutely no respect for the humanity of criminals, even though he broke the law himself. Jesse was the heart and conscience of the show, and I think for the middle part of the series he was the tether that kept Walt from going all evil. Walt knew and managed his feelings for his family, and ignored the harm he did them when it was convenient, but the father thing with Jesse was beyond his control.

For me the backbone of the series was this weird Jesse/Walt father/son thing, and I've been hoping, though I knew it was unlikely, that Jesse would eventually get some kind a pat on the head. There isn't a character in the world who needs a good long hug and cup of hot cocoa more than Jesse.

But that's not possible now. Even if flash forward Walt miraculously finds his heart and means to save Jesse, it's just not possible. Jesse has been completely destroyed, and no kindness can bring him back. It was cruel of the writers, to take out the heart of the show like that. I don't know what they can do in two more hours to earn my forgiveness.

Hey, it's a brilliant show, I don't mean I hate the writers or anything because I don't expect happy-happy, but they really broke my heart with this one. Walt twisting the knife about Jane? Shit! Brutal. That was horrible.




*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.


Great summation of both characters. Its been a real emotional journey, following these guys. I started out really feeling for Walt, who reminds me a great deal of my Father, and disliking Jesse, who struck me as a typical burn-out.

But here we are at the end, and I feel so much empathy for Jesse, and really want to see Walt receive his comeuppance.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:06 PM

MAL4PREZ


Select to view spoiler:


Quotes by Frem in italics to keep the spoiler...

Well yes, but I think that's a (very major, admittedly) secondary motivation, Walters insane pride and massive ego are certainly a factor, but if you watch closely you notice that there's a few points where they really SHOULD become an issue, and either flat out don't, or get steamrollered by the pure rage which is the fire stoking it.
Which parts? I see the rage, but see it coming largely from him not getting his way. He sees the way things ought to go, and when people don't just shut up and do as he says, the rage comes out. Big time ego!

Of course there is still the Walter White buried inside the Heisenberg, so sometimes that voice wins. It never wins when his pride is injured. Look how he mouths off at Hank at very bad times, in ways that keep Hank on the trail.

I haven't seen anyone giving Gus a free pass, but then I just got into the show this summer and I haven't done much online chatting about it.
Certainly, I find Gus totally creepy! No free pass from me.

As for the whole Gray Matter incident, I don't think *any* of them were innocent, but he blames himself for (in HIS mind, true or not) being the "better man" and bowing out, and what it cost him, and that festering resentment is why he'd not accept any help from them.That's an interesting take. Yeah, I can see that he'd call it like that. I wonder if we'll ever find out what really happened.

I think in a VERY twisted and demented sort of way Walt did that to shove Jesse away, to cut him out and away from the nuclear shitbomb which is gonna be the end of walts life, to hurt him ENOUGH to keep him from coming back and getting caught in the blast.I don't buy that. Walt was perfectly content to see Jesse shot in the head. He is 100% pissed as hell that his perfect minion, the kid who always did exactly what Walt wanted (as Walt said on more than occasion) actually went against him. And it got Hank killed. Walt sure as hell wasn't going to blame himself for that. It was convenient for him to turn the hate and blame on Jesse. He wanted to hurt Jesse as deeply as possible.

in fact I found it almost jarringly out of (current) character for him to try to save/protect Hank, that made utterly no sense at all in context with everything else he's done recently.I was a little surprised too, that he suddenly was so protective of Hank and hateful of Jesse.

I agree that Walt likely turned bad long ago. In fact, the actor said so himself in an Actor's Studio interview. The show's creator said that the "break" happened when Walt turned down help from his wealthy friends and choose to cook. Brian Cranston said it'd happened long before. I forget exactly when he said...

100% agree with your take on the violence.



*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:08 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by two:
How Shakespeare Would End Breaking Bad
Quote:
The show has accurately been compared to a Shakespearean tragedy, and it's clear that the Bard's works have influenced Vince Gilligan, the show's creator. Perhaps, then, one might turn to the works of Shakespeare to try and divine how Breaking Bad might end—or at least, how Shakespeare would end it.
www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/09/how-shakespeare-woul
d-end-em-breaking-bad-em/279553/

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two


Thanks for the link Two. Interesting article. The Shakespeare similarities are good to know. If it's really going end as dark as all that, I need to know in advance! Gotta be prepared for things to get even worse, because it seems like that's the inevitable course of it.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:13 PM

MAL4PREZ


Hey Frem, let me add thanks for not taking that thing I said about you "projecting" personally. Looking at my post now I see that sounded pretty snide. I don't mean it that way - everyone projects, and I certainly am. I identify with Jesse, which is ironic because at first he reminded of junkies in my own life and I had no patience for his shit. But somehow I've totally clicked with him. I hadn't realized much until I watched that last episode. I hardly slept last night because it so freaked me out! Something about this pushed my buttons for sure!


*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Wednesday, September 18, 2013 2:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Select to view spoiler:


Which parts? I see the rage, but see it coming largely from him not getting his way. He sees the way things ought to go, and when people don't just shut up and do as he says, the rage comes out. Big time ego!

Of course there is still the Walter White buried inside the Heisenberg, so sometimes that voice wins. It never wins when his pride is injured. Look how he mouths off at Hank at very bad times, in ways that keep Hank on the trail.

Well, it's true he's prideful, arrogant even, but the smouldering core of that hatred is resentment - he's deeply, seriously *PISSED* about never "getting his due" and watching folk that mistreat or dismiss him succeed while crapping on him - mind you that's his perception of it which might not always be accurate cause when emotion clouds judgement, welll...
So I think we're seeing the same thing, just naming it in different words and tones from our own experiences with the world, is all.

And aye verily, his drunken mouthing off to Hank was a serious facepalm moment, one good reason why folks with serious *issues* should avoid the bottle, which is a terribly hypocritical thing for me to say I know, but tis true nonetheless.


I haven't seen anyone giving Gus a free pass, but then I just got into the show this summer and I haven't done much online chatting about it.
Certainly, I find Gus totally creepy! No free pass from me.

Well I've seen many viewers believing that same line of shit Mike was going on about, that if he'd just played nice - which is stupid, the "offer" Gus makes Walter is too-good-to-be-true, the profit margins on his operation simply don't ALLOW for it because of the massive overheard of both maintaining the infrastructure and distribution network, and laundering the money through his legitimate business, so he's going to what, run his business at a loss ?
Nope.
He was planning to kill off Walter and steal his formula from day one, and counting on Walters major flaw being greed, when it's actually pride - but his interactions with Gus are where I was pointing out it was more anger/resentment than ego, because of the way they go at each other and how Walter winds up playing it a lot smarter then one would expect, it's not something I can easily put into words, but that rage tends to trump his pride when the two come into conflict.
Controlling one vice with another is something I am a wee bit familiar with, one can say.

In regards to Jesse, it's *ALL* of that, despite it being contradictory and making no sense, cause Walter isn't exactly in a sane place at the moment, part of him is hateful of Jesses "betrayal", part of him might still care a little in a twisted way, and hell yes he's going to shift the blame to Jesse in his own mind - the reaction I was expecting over Hank was Walter to just close his eyes and turn away...
I have far more experience than I ever wanted in dealing with seriously messed up people, and while the writers do overall a good job, there's a rare few places where they fumble it a little, maybe by accident, or cause the story needs to go in a certain direction.
Another case of that was Mike abandoning his daughter at the playground, it was so out of character the actor even balked a little over it.


And no, I didn't take the projection comment personal, everyone sees the world through their own lens, and Breaking Bad is us seeing this all through Walters lens, which is maybe a little closer to mine than most - but because of that each of us can perceive an event or chain of them differently than each other, constrasting it with our own experiences.
Worth a mention is that BECAUSE this is all viewed from Walters perspective, what WE, the viewer, are seeing, might not exactly be an accurate representation of events, also.

Ironically I most identify with Mike, cause my current actual employment is more the legit version of what he does - being the private security force of a realtor can have some rather interesting moments, but nothing of that kind of scale thankfully, although I bet Mike had less friggin papework to fill out... I hate incidents, and hate paperwork even worse.

I found a very interesting thought piece about Breaking Bad and Healthcare, but I am not sure the spoiler tag covers links, so imma put it here with notation.
(CONTAINS SPOILERS)



Also, yeah I know they took a bit of artistic license with Mercury Fulminate, which is what is in the primers of ammunition, it's the bit that goes bang when the hammer or firing pin strikes it and sets off the gunpowder - I think it's also the main component of those impact-detonated fireworks sometimes known as snap-n-pops, pretty sure anyways, but it was still funny.
Now if you'd wrapped a bit of Cyclonite (aka RDX) around that crystal, one might have blown the ENTIRE top of that building off - which is one thing not addressed (or in a terrifying thought, not YET addressed) in the series, that if he can cook Meth, there's *other* things Walter could make which are even or much WORSE....

Select to view spoiler:

They did address the chem weapon aspect slightly early on in the show when he takes out Emilio and Krazy-8 with phosphine gas


Cause I know a lil bit about the kind of chemistry that goes boom, see, and a guy of Walters skill could crank out some pretty serious kaboom if he wanted to.

-Frem

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Wednesday, September 18, 2013 3:42 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Also, yeah I know they took a bit of artistic license with Mercury Fulminate, which is what is in the primers of ammunition, it's the bit that goes bang when the hammer or firing pin strikes it and sets off the gunpowder - I think it's also the main component of those impact-detonated fireworks sometimes known as snap-n-pops, pretty sure anyways, but it was still funny.
Now if you'd wrapped a bit of Cyclonite (aka RDX) around that crystal, one might have blown the ENTIRE top of that building off - which is one thing not addressed (or in a terrifying thought, not YET addressed) in the series, that if he can cook Meth, there's *other* things Walter could make which are even or much WORSE....

Select to view spoiler:

They did address the chem weapon aspect slightly early on in the show when he takes out Emilio and Krazy-8 with phosphine gas


Cause I know a lil bit about the kind of chemistry that goes boom, see, and a guy of Walters skill could crank out some pretty serious kaboom if he wanted to.

-Frem


It's silver fulminate used in those poppers. When confronted on the show about the mercury fulminate not working, Gilligan justified it by saying Walt mixed in some silver fulminate, and just didnt mention it.

MYTHBUSTERS SPOILERS:

Select to view spoiler:

The failure in the experiment wasn't really the explosive nature of the mercury, just the details. For one, 5 grams (what he used on the show) wasn't enough to blow out the windows, but would have actually killed Walt at that range. It also can't be crystallized like it was on the show, and couldn't be detonated by impact.






"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, September 18, 2013 5:53 PM

MAL4PREZ


OK, yeah Frem. I think we are seeing Walt the same way but put different words on it at first.

Select to view spoiler:


And aye verily, his drunken mouthing off to Hank was a serious facepalm moment, one good reason why folks with serious *issues* should avoid the bottle, which is a terribly hypocritical thing for me to say I know, but tis true nonetheless.
I've come far enough to limit my "bottom of the bottle" mistakes to anonymous online posting LOL!

Yeah, it's a line of shit about Gus for sure. Another one that pisses me off, seeing as I am solidly on Team Jesse, is the claim that Jesse deserves what Walt did because after all he shot Gail. Whatever! Walt very carefully manipulated him into that. There seems to be a large group out there who just have to love Walt, and find excuses for him. They seem to be missing the point of the show.



Controlling one vice with another is something I am a wee bit familiar with, one can say.

For example: this episode was close to sending me into a depression relapse (really, why do I take these things so seriously? Ack!) like I couldn't sleep and just wanted to cry all day Tuesday after I watched it Monday night. But last night my favorite game lit up in warfare that's going crazy now. Weeeee! My mood has improved. :)

Quote:
And no, I didn't take the projection comment personal, everyone sees the world through their own lens, and Breaking Bad is us seeing this all through Walters lens, which is maybe a little closer to mine than most - but because of that each of us can perceive an event or chain of them differently than each other, constrasting it with our own experiences.

You know, that is one thing that makes this show more than just TV. We look through Walt's eyes and understand him and empathize with him. Are we still able to be unbiased in judging him? Given the Cult of Walt, a lot of people clearly are not able. They'll do anything to keep the main character the hero, because dammit the main character should be a hero!

Select to view spoiler:

I wonder what horrible things Walt will have to do in the last two episodes to make even his most ardent fans turn against him. I have a feeling that this is the challenge the writers have set for themselves.

Which makes me sad for Jesse.

Yes, I am aware of the irony. I have somehow managed to watch this whole show through Jesse's eyes, and I am at the place that if Jesse escaped and killed Skylar and then in the most heartless way killed Walt, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. (I would be bothered if he went after Flynn and Holly.)




Quote:
Ironically I most identify with Mike,
Makes perfect sense to me. :)

The video didn't work. Will try again...

Re the chemical weapons, I don't think that's Walt's style. With the drugs he can hide from the harm he does. He can say that those meth-heads are just losers so it's not really his fault. They'd do it anyway, right? With weapons it would be different.

One theme I wonder will come back:

Select to view spoiler:

when Jesse got sober he talked about acceptance, and kicked back with that line: "I'm the bad guy." I wonder if Walt's moment will be the realization that HE is the bad guy, that Hank's death and the airplane crash and the death of children and the destruction of the White family and the betrayal by Jesse and all the rest of it are completely on Walt, no one else...





*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:01 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Welll....
That's the thing about fandoms, sometimes they're fan-DUMB - seriously, there's *NO* deed too heinous to keep at least some small portion of the fandom from adulating Walt because to them he's a dark wish-fulfillment fantasy, a big-badfic that in the darkest part of their hearts they almost wish for, because the rot of hate, intolerance and resentment has seeped that deeply into our society.

Lemme give you an example - when you see the big fatcats who crashed our economy and broke every law, sacred trust, and moral line in the process, skipping away laughing while the folks they screwed starve and struggle, and get BLAMED for it, some part of you deep inside that you don't like very much bares its fangs and starts to growl, you know ?

Prettymuch everybody has those feelings, ain't nothin wrong with it, hell, ain't all that much wrong with even acting on it, it's the HOW which matters, sure...
But deep within their heart everybody who's ever been mistreated (which is prettymuch everybody) has just that wee little kernel of something really, really ANGRY about it within them.

And because this is fiction, because this is fantasy, they can let it out to play a little bit and appease it in a harmless fashion, which is what such is, kind of like a boilers release valve, only in the most rare of situations would doing so actually encourage that kind of behavior, and those people were seriously messed up in the first place to the point where anything else coulda set em off just as easy - so folks liking Walter no matter how vile he is doesn't bother me so.

Hell, one of the things I do when I get totally stressed by how stupid and malicious people can be is to fire up Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas go downtown and just RAMPAGE - doesn't mean nothing, see ?

Besides, why's it matter so much if someone else likes/hates a fictional character so much ?
Or even completely mistrues the moral message of a story, which happens more often.

Reason I go into that is that there's a manga called Death Note where the AUTHOR started getting really pissed off at folks "liking" the guy supposed to be the villain, and then started not only "pushing" that character harder in a direction he was admittedly going anyway, but doing it in such a fashion that suspension of disbelief started to crumble, and then topping that by breaking the internal rules of the story and throwing in a Mary-Sue'ish character with near magical powers (such as deductions with NO logic chain behind them, again violating the storys integrity and internal rules) which in the end came off pretty badly and caused a lot of readers to "like" the villain even MORE out of spite, so there's a lesson in that for writers.

I think some of the out-of-character moments might be an attempt on behalf of the writers to render Walt any kind of likeable at all, to hold the idea of redemption juuuust out of reach and troll the audience a little, at least that seemed the intention, but it doesn't come through as credible to me cause Walter White as he was prettymuch became toast the moment he decided not to play the game anymore - major events like that in ones life, for good or ill, always result in transformation of character and personality, he's NOT that person any more and never will be.

Which is funny cause I am re-reading Matt Stovers Caine's Law right now and Caine points out yeah, he's not "that person any more", but no one ever thought to ask...
"What if the person he is now... is WORSE?!"

Oh, and this...

Select to view spoiler:


I don't think that's Walt's style. With the drugs he can hide from the harm he does. He can say that those meth-heads are just losers so it's not really his fault. They'd do it anyway, right? With weapons it would be different.

We ARE talkin about a guy who at some point in here near the end, bought himself an M60 Machinegun, I don't think denial is on his list of priorities anymore, alas.


-Frem

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Thursday, September 19, 2013 6:39 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
. . . Besides, why's it matter so much if someone else likes/hates a fictional character so much ?
Or even completely misconstrues the moral message of a story, which happens more often. . . . -Frem
Part of the audience attaches wrong explanations to TV shows, explanations that the show's writers know are ludicrous. As in TV, the same happens in reality, but there is no designated head writer to authoritatively clue the audience, and actors, about what reality means.

Select to view spoiler:

In Front of Their Noses (September 16, 2013, 8:33 am)

Antonio Fatas, like me, is boggled by the OECD’s apparent inability even to contemplate the possibility that Europe’s poor economic performance is the result of fiscal austerity.

At one level, of course, it’s perfectly understandable. The OECD in general, and Pier Carlo Padoan, in particular, as chief economist, were among the biggest and earliest cheerleaders for austerity; you can see why they don’t want to admit that they were in fact cheerleading Europe into disaster.

Still, it’s kind of depressing. What we’ve just had in the eurozone is as close to a natural experiment on fiscal policy as you’re ever likely to see, and the results overwhelmingly support a Keynesian view. You might expect some acknowledgment, some revision of views.

But that’s not the way the world works. George Orwell knew all about it:

"The point is that we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield … To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle."

And not many influential people are into that kind of struggle … http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/in-front-of-their-noses/



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, September 20, 2013 8:29 PM

MAL4PREZ


Fair enough, Frem. I don't think "in the series" Walt would take that option you're talking about, but who he's gotten to be in the most recent episodes certainly might. I could see it. But I don't think it'll go that way.

I understand your argument about people enjoying the fantasy of being bad and rebelling against the system. I think this show goes beyond that though. I enjoy the post-apocalyptic fantasy as much as any schmoe, maybe even more, but it crosses the line when I find my fantasy self hurting people I care about. The whole point is: when does your rebel fantasy make you part of the evil you fight? Walt has gone there but he's too f'ed up to know it.

Frem, when does your hatred of The Man make you a servant of The Man? I don't mean to suggest that you are, I mean to suggest that that is what has happened on this show, and that's what Walt fans have become.

Select to view spoiler:

People on other forums I've visited argue that Jesse deserves it all because he committed the cardinal sin of ratting out to the cops. Also, they say, he deserves to suffer an awful fate because he killed sweet old Gale. I have a problem with this because the only option he had besides killing Gale was turning rat, and Walt put him in that situation. There was no solution for Jesse that the Walt cult would accept, and that's because they are indeed the Cult of Walt.

To me, the Walt effect is not about people wanting to buck the system. People who allow themselves to support Walt no matter what are *exactly* the people talk themselves into supporting the shitty evil banking system while thinking they don't. They aren't bucking a damn thing, they're just giving into their egos. They are easily manipulated because they have no true moral compass.

So, this is maybe giving too much moral weight to a TV show, but the hell is the internet for if not that? ;)



Tonight I let myself watch last week's episode again. Have new thoughts but they are still percolating.

Trying to decide if I should watch Sunday night of wait until I have both episodes to finish it all at once. I can't have the next one kill me the way the last one did!



*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Friday, September 20, 2013 11:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Frem, when does your hatred of The Man make you a servant of The Man? I don't mean to suggest that you are, I mean to suggest that that is what has happened on this show, and that's what Walt fans have become.

I get ya, hell that question has been around prolly as long as humans have, consider how every revolution which topples a regime eventually declines into prettymuch the same thing, then cast down in its time, lather, rinse, repeat.

That's why I liken Government to a machinegun sitting in the middle of a table, with Politics being the arguement over who gets to point it at who - the power of The One Ring, as it were, creates nothing, solves nothing, and the end result is always destruction, cooperation has to come from people, them wanting to, not cause one scares and threatens them.

Force and Fear are tactics of "The Man", and using them makes one no better, cause that warps everything, every 'accomplishment' which springs from that seed is poisoned from the get-go
Quote:
“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”

Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.

But always there's the siren song, the lure of power-over-others, and you know what ?
It's a lie.
As I've mentioned before, violence of any kind damages those who use it.

Loki (The Avengers) did kind of have a point when he mentioned folks diminishing their lives in a mad scramble for power, they do, be it religious/spiritual, economic, or what have you, if one wants power to control the will of others, the very act of taking and using it destroys them too.

But the rarely asked question is what about folks who don't WANT it ?
Hell in all truth I have no authority but what folks give me, and they tend to hand off a lot of it cause they think doing so serves THEIR interests, which is essentially how it all works, cause when folks no longer believe you are serving their interests, they stop listening to you, stop following your orders, even attack you - that can be staved off with Force and Fear, but not inevitably so, cause eventually you'll reach a point where ENOUGH people hate you... well, you know where that goes.

Works the same way in Crime as Government (IMHO cause they're much the same thing, lol) or in any other human interaction cause the NATURE of power is exactly that, folks willing to listen to you and do what you tell/ask them - tis when manipulation and threat comes into the picture that things go all to hell.

Okay that's maybe a little convoluted and not sure if the point gets across, but anyways.
I think you might very, VERY much like Matthew Stovers Acts of Caine books, cause they address a whole bunch of the moral and ethical issues like this, and pull ZERO punches about them and the natural consequences thereof.


Another thing I was thinkin about, is how Walter and those like him are a branch, not a root, merely a symptom, not the disease.

Think on this, without the malicious, exploitive and downright rapacious for-profit "healthcare" system we have, and with the asinine practice of prohibition-via-Force aka "The War on (some) Drugs" - people like Walter never come to *BE*, because the conditions which allow shit like that to grow and fester don't exist.
I mean hell, it was Prohibition in the first place which created the crime and corruption, and the supposed need for Force which lead to the FBI/ATF and so on and so forth, which in the end have become a greater danger to us and all we care about than the goddamn moonshiners ever were, yes ?
This is why I do not care for Hank - "just following orders" is no goddamn excuse.

Tilt your head a bit and look at it sideways for a moment - Walt goes and creates a product, he wants to sell it to people, people want to buy it, and while the product itself and their use of it may be harmful to them (like booze, smokes and other things ain't ?) that is their choice.
Along comes the DEA saying no, you can't, cause we say so and if you don't OBEY, we will harm/imprison you!
From that perspective which has the moral high ground ?
(Yes, I know that's a gross oversimplification, I just wanted to push the concept out there to be thought about, neh ?)

And it's not like Prohibition ever WORKS, people find a way, they always do, and the folks who take most harm from it are joe and jane sixpack - wasn't *that* long ago you could buy friggin Heroin over the counter as a damn toothache remedy, and we didn't have the crime, corruption and violence cause there was no incentive for it, but along comes prohibition, and the squeeze gets tighter and tighter, and there's money and power involved in subverting it, and along come desperate folks like Walter....

And on top of that now we have these rabid "Law Enforcement" agencies which are in all truth these days more of an occupying army of a protected class who can prettymuch beat you to DEATH without real consequence for lookin at em sideways - seriously, what the hell, right ?

So I take issue with the notion of Hank being "one of the good guys".
"Just following orders" is no goddamn excuse.

That doesn't make Walt no better, mind you, but the same rationalizations and excuses Walt uses to deny his own culpability, are the exact same justifications Hank uses, are they not ?

And don't even get me STARTED on Medical Care, and how the desperation to obtain it, and living in pain and suffering can drive people mad, we'll be here all day...

Anyways, the essential *ROOT* of the problem isn't Walter, or Hank, or Tuco, or Gus....
So much as the social-legal structure that inevitably creates them, an assembly line cranking out monsters in our midst, and with all the best of intentions, we built it, didn't we ?

-Frem

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Saturday, September 21, 2013 7:27 PM

MAL4PREZ


I'm with you on a few things Frem:

This whole (fictional but with ties to reality) BB situation is a result of the completely stupid and misguided drug war.

I've long thought that there ought to be a rule: if some large percent of the population breaks a law, it should no longer be a law. The Mass Pike has a speed limit of 55, but on any given day if you're going less than 70 you are causing a problem. I've found myself sitting in the left lane going 75 when I notice a cop behind me. Guy isn't looking to give me a ticket, he just wants me to move the hell over so he can pass.

And yet they'll use that 55 limit to hand out tickets when they need the income. Clearly, 55 isn't necessary for safety because traffic NEVER goes that slow. So change the f'n law already!

Ditto for drugs. If the last two presidents openly admitted to trying pot (and more, I think) and yet went on to become PoTUS, why the hell does any young person go to jail for doing the same?

But back to the TV show. It's not the larger issues of society's ills that damn Walt. He's not just fighting a good fight against societal restraints. He is all self-interested ego, which makes him evil in my book. You can draw parallels with fights that are good to fight, and you can point to moments when he had real feeling, but none of that excuses the harm he's done. I don't forgive him. I only hope he reaches that conclusion that Jesse did a few seasons back: He is the Bad Man. The consequences of his actions are all on him.

But what I really want to get to with this post are my predictions.

Select to view spoiler:


First, all my predictions are going to be wrong because this damned show always surprises me.

However, this won't stop me from trying. :)

Second: it seems the going thing to think that future Walt got his big gun and his ricine so he could go back and save Jesse and then - perhaps - use the ricin on himself. I think the latter idea is just stupid, (man's got cancer! Still coughing and taking pills in the future, why does he need ricin for himself?) but there's a logic to the first. Uncle Jack is armed and Walt definitely hates the man for taking his money and killing Hank. Sure enough Walt needs a big gun to set all that to rights.

But it's too obvious at this point. It's too much like what the writers WANT us to think. So I'm wondering if Walt is getting the gun to fight Jesse. Maybe the silly emo meth-head boy has been turned Bad, really Bad by all the ass-kickings he's taken. Maybe he's the one who trashed Walt's house and spray-painted Heisenberg on the living room wall, this after he escaped the nazis and did serious threatening of Walt's family. (I would guess killing of Walt's fam, but Walt is too relaxed in the future for that to be the case.)

Like Gus the monster was created when his partner (lover?) was killed by the Mexican cartels, I can see Jesse becoming the new monster. I can see him killing Walt and taking over as the new Big Bad, all his humanity destroyed.

That's my guess after watching Ep 5-14 a second time.

OK, and another option is that Jesse really is completely broken and Walt will witness that and react in one way or another. I hope not. Have to say, I hope Jesse turns badass and gets his revenge no matter the consequences. Which puts me on par with those who cheer Walt turning bad.

Kudos to the writers, for getting me to this point! They have officially messed with my head. :)



*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Sunday, September 22, 2013 7:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
I've long thought that there ought to be a rule: if some large percent of the population breaks a law, it should no longer be a law.

That's what broke Prohibition more less, so the powers that be decided to start just flat out ignoring the Constitution and its requirements, well, more than they were already.

I had to mention to someone that "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" isn't the pancea they think it is, because that leads right into the problem of attempted prohibition-via-taxation like they did with tobacco, not only did they lie about where the money was gonna go (hint: It hasn't, check for yourself) they kept going back to that well and jacking the tax by playing on the shocking gullibility of chronic do-gooders and moral-majority types, who always seem willing to help pave the road to hell.

End Result: Around here at least, there's a massive secondary market smuggling tobacco and prescription drugs (conventional, not narcotics) and because there's no MONEY in attacking it cause Asset Forfeiture doesn't (yet) apply, much of that tax revenue dries up and ever increasing efforts to "enforce" it wind up COSTING money - which wouldn't have happened if the "legit" price could beat the underground one.
Case in point, the very tobacco I am smoking now is obtained from a smuggler buddy for $11.00/lb, and that's with his cut and everything, but that self-same bag bought over the counter here would be $50-$60, which tells you how rapacious the tax is, yes ?
I don't think any tax EXCEPT booze and smokes should exceed 50% of the total value of the product, and in the latter case no more than 70%, which is a fair enough deal...

So if they were say, to legalize Marijuana for example, and then slap a $50.00 tax on a "dime bag" (worth $10 max) not a goddamn thing will change... but pin the tax at five bucks and enforce quality standards, and the street aspect dries up and blows away for lack of need.

As for artificially low speed limits, well that's part of criminalizing everything so that there's ALWAYS an excuse to arrest anyone at any time, make everything a crime, all of us criminals, and the powers that be don't have to listen to us any more - and there's also, obviously, the money.

Ann Arbor has a serious problem with this, in that theirs are outright ILLEGAL, and have been since 2006 - this remains to be rectified.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/opinion/ann-arbor-needs-to-get-up-to-spee
d-on-its-speed-limits-along-main-roads/
http://www.annarbor.com/news/speed-limits-along-some-of-ann-arbors-mos
t-loathed-speed-traps-could-go-up/

That has SOOOooo many ill-effects, when Stadium Bridge and a couple others were falling down, chunks of concrete falling out of the bottom and hitting cars to where they had to block off the street under it, Congressman Dingell had to go to DC personally and all but beg for a TIGER grant, and one of the heaviest arguments against him was those speed limits not being changed - thankfully Dingbat is pretty badass and won them over - reconstruction started this May.
(Seriously, he's a dude, this bit is from last WEEK.)



Our local township went and tried to use poor road conditions as an excuse, then blocked and rejected efforts to repair the road (which they FAILED, as repairs have already started) and THEN in a fit of pique tried to have the road stripped down to one lane with bicycle lanes to keep that speed limit and the juicy ticket income, not to mention excuse to pull over minorities en masse and search their cars in hopes of finding an excuse to arrest them and steal the car via forfeiture - they've gotten a full measure of earfull from my proxies, as going in person always winds up with them accusing me of somehow "threatening/menacing" them... even from 20 feet away in a freakin wheelchair.
*eyeroll*
Funny bit to that is that some of the locals, when pulled over, have actually pulled INTO the freakin complex when a cop flashes them, cause they know damn well I'll take an interest and come watch/film the stop, thus ensuring officer unfriendly behaves himself - damn annoying that is.


But yeah, back to the show - I concur that Walt's gone evil, hell in my opinion he crossed over a lot earlier than people think, and he's blown off chance after chance to walk away cause he LIKES what he is doing even if he's in denial about it, he didn't slide down the slippery slope so much as he knowingly dived in headfirst like it was hells own waterslide.
You certainly don't have to argue his evilness to me, and doing so to what you call the "cult" is futile for all the reasons I named - but I have kind of a bizarre take on such things as while I take responsibility for my actions I never try to justify them, cause if you gotta do that, you maybe shoulda done it in the first place, and whatever sins in it there may me, those are MINE, and if I am judged for it some day, it ain't gonna be by nobody here, you know ?

Select to view spoiler:

I too think the gung-ho rescue is a bit too trite for where the show has gone, is going, it's just too neat and clean an ending to a messy situation and would come off as a major copout and totally out of character for Walt besides.

I can certainly see the possibility of Jesse offing Walt and then more or less becoming Walt, only to some day be thrown down in return, which is depressing, but accurate... although, I really ain't sure Jesse has that in him, cause without the toxic effect of Walt on his life, he just don't want it enough to make that jump.

The big moral dilemma for ME would be if Walt uses that big machinegun on...
A - His insurance provider.
B - A DEA office.

A - I'd have more of a problem with, most of those folk aren't really knowingly culpable and aren't decision-makers anyways, and frankly while normally I don't think it has any real impact in most cases... I *cringe* at the notion of this maybe giving folk "ideas" in the real world.
Hell, I am surprised no foreclosed homeowner has loaded their car with propane tanks and driven it into the lobby of the bank yet - people as a whole are better than media paints them to be, thankfully.

B - Not sure how I would feel about that, especially in a day and age when the forces of "Law and Order" have ZERO moral compunction about doing almost the same damn thing to residential homes and tend to get a free pass for it most times, I could name some examples, but no need.
That said, violence is a piss poor way to solve that problem, but I'd have a real hard time feeling much sympathy in such a case.

Locally we reigned our badge bearing goons in via budget cuts, as in every time they pull some BS we slap them with another cut, but that doesn't work everywhere for a variety of reasons.


-Frem

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Friday, September 27, 2013 6:28 PM

MAL4PREZ


I disappeared into the cave of the school week. Emerging now to continue the conversation...

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
End Result: Around here at least, there's a massive secondary market smuggling tobacco and prescription drugs
Yeah, I am shocked every time I see what cigarettes cost these days. I smoked when I was in college, not a lot, like a pack a week tops. I couldn't have afforded it with today's prices. Which maybe supports the argument by the tobacco haters. :/ Meh. I don't like being indirectly controlled, so although I've grown to hate cigs, I hate this kind of behavioral control even more.

Like you said, not only is it evil, it's just plain stupid and doesn't work.


Quote:
As for artificially low speed limits, well that's part of criminalizing everything so that there's ALWAYS an excuse to arrest anyone at any time, make everything a crime, all of us criminals, and the powers that be don't have to listen to us any more - and there's also, obviously, the money.
Amen. Kudos.

I like your politician guy, but Pat Leahy may always be my favorite. :)

So, I've done a lot of reading blogs and talking to people and generally obsessing about BB this week. A majority of the kids I teach are hella into it. It's distressing that some are completely in love with Walt still. I find it a little alarming how people rationalize his behavior. ie...




SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER




I hate having to highlight the text for long sections, so I'm leaving this visible. Hell, if anyone reaches this deep in the thread without having watched the show, they're silly LOL!




SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER




OK, I've read comments that Jesse deserves to suffer because he killed Gale. The fact that Walt manipulated Jesse into doing that because Jesse was taking over Walt's place as head cook for Gus... not important! I'm re-watching season 4, and Walt's manipulation is so much clearer to me than first time around.

Also, many Walt folk claim Jesse deserves his fate because he went to the police. But one could also argue that the reason he is where he is now is because he didn't go to them earlier. He should have brought in the cops when Drew Sharp was killed. He choose to quit the cook but still demanded his $5 million. He made his bad kharma right there.

There's many really interesting articles breaking down the twists and turns of Walt's psyche, and I'm eating them up LOL! I can't wait for Sunday's finale, but I'm also kind of enjoying not knowing, and guessing. There are just so many possibilities for what could happen.

The Grey Matter story will finally be told, it looks like. I'm guessing that Walt won't come out of that smelling sweet. Maybe there was a love triangle that Walt didn't win, or a business decision he didn't agree with, and he left in a huff with his damaged pride. Like he's done all through the series, he blames the Grey Matter folks for that failure because they didn't do things *his* way so what choice did they leave him?

That seems his theme, and the thing about Walt I can't stand. Everything would work just fine if only everyone did exactly what he says, and he feels justified in taking any kind of revenge against people who don't obey him. In S4, Jesse was all panicked about going to Mexico with Gus. Walt's reaction was to get pissed because Jesse had dinner with Gus and didn't pull out the ricin. Walt couldn't consider that Jesse made a good decision. Good decisions don't matter. Obeying Walt is the important thing.

But then Walt goes all remorseful about fighting with Jesse, even crying (when he's doped up) and calling Walt Jr "Jesse". Goodness, I do love how this show lets characters be complex. Walt really does love Jesse, he just loves his power trip more.

(Moving predictions into a different post because this is too long.)

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Friday, September 27, 2013 6:35 PM

MAL4PREZ


My (100% WRONG!) predictions:


MORE SPOILERS!!!


Yes, gung-ho rescue is too obvious. Walt is not motivated by rescuing abyone right now, and anyway I wouldn't believe that he could kill all the nazis by himself, even with the big gun. Waiting three days for the ricin to have its effect seems impractical for the storyline.

But Todd has to have a fate of some kind, and it better not be a pleasant one...

What I really jones for is for Walt to see what's become of Jesse and have to admit that *he* made that awfulness happen. Seeing his surrogate son still alive but suffering horribly might shock him into admitting that he cares, and Jesse has always been the connection to Walt's good side. The worse things are for Jesse, the more Walt goes Heisenberg. Walt admitting he loves Jesse as a son would be like Walt admitting that he's not the evil Heisenberg.

Yes, I'm that sentimental.

So maybe Walt sees what's happened to Jesse and we get another huggy moment. This is where I see Jesse being damaged up enough to accept the affection, bask in it, but then kill Walt.

I've changed my mind that I don't think Jesse'd go criminal in the end. Most likely he'd swallow the ricin and then go to the cops to try to clean his soul a bit before dying. I hope I'm wrong. I hope the writers find a way to give him a life.

I don't see Walt going after either the insurance companies or DEA. I don't think he blames them at all, though he should. His beef is with Grey Matter and the nazis who killed Hank and took his money.

He might have heard about the blue being back on the market and figured that Jesse is alive, but his reaction to the Charlie Rose show seemed all focused on Grey Matter.

Yes, I am rambling about this show and I will probably continue all weekend. And for weeks after LOL! And I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just needing to vent about my obsession. :)


*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Friday, September 27, 2013 7:43 PM

MAL4PREZ


Really good article about two episodes back. Assessment still holds, even with all that's happened in the two episodes since.

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/09/breaking-bad-recap-rabid-dog/


*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Monday, September 30, 2013 8:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, that's that.
No real surprises there - I think we all knew the destination of that train from the moment it pulled out of the station, yep.

Way it was put together reminded me of Agent Smiths line in The Matrix.
Quote:
Hear that mister anderson ? THAT, is the sound of inevitability.

Which is what it was, only question was when and how.

I've heard some mention of redemption, but that's just crap, there's no redemption here cause this wasn't for even a moment ABOUT redemption, this is about what WALTER wanted, frankly that's always what this has been about cause that's who he was, how he is, only magnified to degrees not possible in civilized life by desperate circumstances.

Even when he finally owns up to it, even *that* is a manipulation, but a less mean spirited one in order to give his family some closure.

And in the end, Walter *gets* what he wanted, although depending on what you believe he might very well have a "warm" welcome waiting for him on the other side of the veil, sure - damn straight he earned it.


All that said, it does rook me just the slightest that from a certain perspective the health care system and the "War on (some) Drugs" are in their own way every bit as villainous and vile as any of the protagonists and antagonists involved here, and in one way or another actually enabled or inspired some of them, something I feel is glossed over, and Big Pharmas playgames never even mentioned - how is jacking kids on Ritalin "good" and kids jacking themselves on Meth "evil", and is the "War on (some) Drugs" really about eliminating competition ?
That and enriching/corrupting our so-called-protectors into vulture-grade looters via asset forfeiture, yadda yadda.

Oh, and Grey Matter - still comes across to me that that Elliot and Gretchen are not as innocent as they might seem, something about them always came across a bit "off" to me, and I think they might have been playing Walt via Gretchen sleeping with him and he figured out what was going on and left in a huff... which allowed them to establish legal custody of his work thus cutting him off from any royalties and such for it - while used in the most ridiculous and bizarre fashions these days, that is one reason patent and trademark laws exist, so I don't think they're wholly innocents there, just opportunists.

-F

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Monday, September 30, 2013 10:41 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Hear that mister anderson ? THAT, is the sound of inevitability.


LOL! Brilliant line, and perfectly fitting.

I'm mostly surprised that I wasn't surprised. You never know if the writers will try to pull some huge crazy stunt, but this episode just made sense and provided much needed closure.

**** SPOILER ****

I was relieved right away when Walt didn't go after the Grey Matter couple, as in, he didn't want revenge. Just help (though coerced, to put it mildly). First, it showed that he was out to mend what fences he could, and wasn't purely motivated by power trip and rage. Thank goodness there was going to be balm on the many wounds this show has given me, was my reaction!

Second, I was somewhat relieved not to get the whole Grey Matter backstory. I've been curious and all, but also distressed at how many precious minutes that would eat up. I'd rather get as much as I can about the main characters.

However, regarding balm, I read somewhere that Gilligan thinks (I love this: he *thinks* this about the character he writes but he's not completely sure and he's willing for viewers to see it differently, as if this character really does have his own independent existence. Which is how I felt when I was writing.) Anyhow, Gilligan suspects that Walt intended to kill Jesse along with the Nazis. He changed his mind when he saw what bad shape Jesse was in.

I didn't see that angle watching the show the first time, because I was convinced that Walt was all olive branch. But it makes sense. And makes the scene even more heart-wrenching.

I agree about redemption. There is none for Walt. But there was honestly, finally. Admitting to Skyler that he did it for himself... Funny, one of my students who has been firmly and somewhat disturbingly on Team Walt, came into school this morning saying that Walt died too easy. I couldn't believe it! I think it affected her to see him acknowledge that he had indeed gone to the Dark Side.

War on drugs - yes bullshit. But rather than dwell on that, I'll get back to my infatuation with Jesse.

I really want to know what his odds are. The material facts say he's screwed: no money, in poor health, fucked up in the head for sure, serious emotional problems, no one he can turn to, and oh yeah his fingerprints all over a meth lab full of dead nazis. What is he going to do?

But then he's actually happy to be alive, which I think not many people would be after all that happened. The fight never went out of him. So maybe he'll go to Alaska and build a new life, making zebra wood inlay boxes and teaching kids to not do drugs. That's my Jesse fanfic. :)

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Oh, and Grey Matter - still comes across to me that that Elliot and Gretchen are not as innocent as they might seem,
Hmm. I must ponder that. Need to watch the scene again. I'm still too blown by the Skyler/Walt and Jesse/Walt scenes to focus on much else.

Sooo looking forward to buying the series DVD set and all the extras... This show is worth it.

So now when does The Walking Dead come back? ;)

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Monday, September 30, 2013 11:38 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Well, that's that.
No real surprises there - I think we all knew the destination of that train from the moment it pulled out of the station, yep.
It was not inevitable. In retirement, Walter White was doing what the real Whitey Bulger did. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger But Walter didn't retire to a Santa Monica apartment, like Bulger did for 17 years. TV can't wait 17 years, so winter in a New Hampshire cabin made Walter bored and lonesome. He needed an end, as Breaking Bad did, and called the police from a barroom.

And then Walter saw Grey Matter's Elliot and Gretchen on the barroom TV. TV gave him a conveniently new purpose at the last minute before the police arrived.

After the final episode of Breaking Bad, Whitey Bulger is probably wishing he died doing what he was best at, murder, like the fictional Walter White.

Fandom
http://xkcd.com/367/

"Ron Paul wants to put the New Republic back on the Corusca gem standard."

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Tuesday, October 1, 2013 4:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I actually got a laugh out of how Gretchen and Elliot have NO IDEA Walt is even there till he pulls up a chair, that's straight from my bag of tricks... one of our residents is a wee bit irritated at me cause I almost made him wet himself, not MY fault he wasn't paying attention and didn't see me till I walked right past his chair while he was out having a late night smoke.

If Jesse has an ounce of sense he'll go running straight to this guy here.
http://breakingbad.wikia.com/wiki/Group_Leader
I think he actually might, and I wouldn't be none too worried about the fingerprints cause he's got the scars and the damage to prove his participation was involuntary, plus what they did to Andrea - I think the DEA would be more than happy to pin all else on Walt just to close the case as it has been a thorn in their side the whole time.

I too think Walt went in there with the idea of a mercy kill in mind and just couldn't, cause Jesse is like a second son to him no matter how screwed in the head he was, and I think he was also actually gratified at Jesse finally rejecting him to become his own person when he tossed away the pistol and refused to kill him.

I found it kind of tragic but triumphant that Walter meets his "win condition", even at the cost of his own life... were it not for his ego, pride and grudge holding, he might have been able to do so peacefully, but even dealt a crummy hand by fate and his own "issues", he still made bank when the chips came down.
Quote:
So now when does The Walking Dead come back?

Oh bite thy tongue!

Three/Four episodes into it and I was rooting for the ZOMBIES - seriously, I have never seen a more determinedly, passionately, STUPID bunch of dumbass deserving of horrible fate morons outside the GOP in my entire LIFE - I literally couldn't stomach watching it, and it was kinda the last straw in cancelling my netflix subscription (along with 5000 C/D list fodder movies junking up the list and drowning out maybe 9 good ones, if even that many).

Honestly I couldn't find even a single character I didn't want to meet a horrific and painful end, except maybe poor little Sophia, and welll....
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EightDeadlyWords

If there ever was a zombie apocalypse, and these folks showed up at the edge of my secured zone, I'd mow them down in self-defense against their rampant, overbearing, inexcusable stupidity and incompetence, lest they destroy all me and mine have by leading the horde right to us out of pure flaming idiocy - I *HATE* those people, all of em.

-F

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Tuesday, October 1, 2013 3:55 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Walter White's Dream

The New Yorker’s Emily Nussbaum explains the finale :

“ … halfway through, at around the time that Walt was gazing at Walt, Jr., I became fixated on the idea that what we were watching must be a dying fantasy on the part of Walter White, not something that was actually happening—at least not in the “real world” of the previous seasons.

… I mean, wouldn’t this finale have made far more sense had the episode ended on a shot of Walter White dead, frozen to death, behind the wheel of a car he couldn’t start? Certainly, everything that came after that moment possessed an eerie, magical feeling—from the instant that key fell from the car’s sun visor, inside a car that was snowed in. Walt hit the window, the snow fell off, and we were off to the races. Even within this stylized series, there was a feeling of unreality —- and a strikingly different tone from the episode that preceded this one …

… [But] if this episode in fact took place in reality, it was troubling, and yes, disappointing, if only because the story ended by confirming Walt’s most grandiose notions: that he is, in fact, all-powerful, the smartest guy in the room, the one who knocks. Anyone other than Walt becomes a mere reflection of this journey to redemption. … It’s not that Walt needed to suffer, necessarily, for the show’s finale to be challenging, or original, or meaningful: but Walt succeeded with so little true friction —- maintaining his legend, reconciling with family, avenging Hank, freeing Jesse, all genuine evil off-loaded onto other, badder bad guys -— that it felt quite unlike the destabilizing series that I’d been watching for years. If, instead, we were watching Walt’s compensatory fantasy, it was a fascinating glimpse into the man’s mind -— akin to the one in the movie “Mulholland Drive,” a poignant, tragic attempt to fix a life that is unfixable.” - www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2013/09/breaking-bad-finale-rev
iewed.html

Read, as they say, the whole thing, which fleshes out the case for the strange, un-”Breaking Bad”-ness of the show’s final hour: The ridiculously-smooth unfolding of Walt’s final plan, the surprising predictability (in this most unpredictable of shows) of just about everything that happened, and the weird invisibility of Albuquerque’s Most Wanted Man throughout. Given the sweep of the show, it was not a sequence of events that came close to vindicating Walt: After the terrible unfolding of the last season, especially, no mere tying-up of unfinished business could accomplish that. But it was a sequence that could have been scripted by Walt, given how neatly it fit with his own long-running conception of himself — as a genius among lesser men, a master of his fate, and a man who takes care of his family even when his family doesn’t appreciate or understand it.

My Sunday column, which explored the moral coherence and primal appeal of the Team Walt worldview, also argued that the show itself does not actually share that worldview, and that as a work of art “Breaking Bad” ultimately judges its protagonist from within the more universalist/Christian moral framework that he himself rejects. I stand by that view, but after the finale I think the creators may have nursed a little more sympathy for Team Walt’s perspective than I previously believed. It was almost as if, having ruthlessly deconstructed his vision of himself across the final season’s course, they decided to give him (and his admirers) a kind of consolation prize — a last ride in which his plans would all work out, his genius would carry all before it, and his self-image would actually be vindicated by the unfolding of events. And it’s hard not to agree with Slate’s Willa Paskin that this kind of ending necessarily “dampens the moral vision of the show,” and weakens the integrity of its tragic arc.

So I stand with [The New Yorker's] Nussbaum in preferring to interpret the finale’s action as an “Owl Creek Bridge”-style dying dream … though I also think that interpretation is less poignant than hyper-tragic, bordering on horrific, suggesting as it does that Walt died not only with his world in ruins, but still entirely enclosed by his own self-serving fantasies, unchanged and unredeemed. But from a dramatic perspective, better an unredeemed anti-hero, dying in his sins, than the kind of implausible semi-vindication that the finale’s action sometimes seemed to want to offer. – http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/walter-whites-dream/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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