What is justice? by Giantevilhead

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What is justice?

POSTED BY: GIANTEVILHEAD
UPDATED: Thursday, December 8, 2005 19:42
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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:45 PM

What defines justice? What is its underlying purpose? Is justice defined by law or is law defined by justice?

Supposedly justice is the fair, moral, impartial, and righteous treatment of people. What is fair, moral, and righteous is established by reason and the beliefs of the majority. We’ll just ignore religion for a minute now since they generally offer a set of absolute rules created by an omnipotent and perfectly righteous being. What is determined to be fair, moral, and righteous are then forged into laws, the instrument by which justice is served. Yet the beliefs of the majority are not always correct. Morals, ethics, perception of what is right and wrong also change over the course of time. Laws change. What was once considered righteous is now considered cruel and unusual, eye for an eye for example. Laws once considered just like ones that supported slavery are now considered unjust. A deeper problem of justice and law stems from the fact that laws are forged by men and women, people of flesh and blood and sin. Nothing that lives is innocent. Those who forge laws pass their hate, their sins, their guilt, their imperfections, their desire for vengeance, onto the laws they create. The laws are impure from the moment of their inception, carrying with them the taint of their creators, and no true justice can come from them.

Is it possible for law to be cleansed of the taint of those who forged them? Is it possible for justice to be refined, bled of its sins and rise to perfection from imperfection? Or will justice forever be merely a vehicle for punishment and vengeance? Does justice even exist or are all that is done in its name as meaningless as its very concept? Is there an alternative to justice, a path beyond that of punishment and retribution?

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:12 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

No one knows or cares about what justice is? Oh well, for the 5 people who read this thread, I'll tell you what I think justice is. True justice is the instrument by which redemption is served. Through justice the guilty will see the errors of their ways and come to accept responsibility for their actions. Justice rises to perfection not through refinement of law or punishment, justice rises to perfection through the salvation of the guilty and the protection of the innocent. Justice that does not lead to redemption is no justice at all.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 1:45 PM

GEDEON

Hello Mr.Head,

Two things.

First, Laws are the only way to define justice. Without written laws, you have a different form of justice per person who shows up.

Second, my meaning of life is Freedom (another blog that noone answers to).

Consider someone who survived a violent childhood. This person may become an adult who thinks he can get away with stuff that Simon, Serenity's doctor, would never consider.

Now these two types have to live under a written law, or else noone will ever agree.

Yet clearly, you and I are not the ones making these written law, but we do have to live by them.

Hey, cheer up weepy: We could have been born in Haiti or Iran...

Quote:
-Smith:Does Big Brother existe. Does he exist like I exist? -O'Brien:You do not exist...
-1984 by George Orwell

Gedeon

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 1:59 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

Quote:
Originally posted by Gedeon:
First, Laws are the only way to define justice. Without written laws, you have a different form of justice per person who shows up.

That's part of the problem isn't it? The flaws of those who create laws are passed on to the laws which are then passed on to justice which results in a system that is no more just than the differing opinions of each individual. How is a system of justice created by a bunch of rich politicians more just than what I consider to be just? Is it because they're richer and more powerful than me? Is it because their brand of justice conforms to the majority? There was a time when the majority of the population believed that slavery is right but laws supporting slavery are now considered unjust.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:34 PM

GEDEON

Power and Fear and Money are valued in our society. I'm don't want professional athletes and politicians to have smaller salaries: I want the hope that my kids will take those jobs in the futur...

I don't value money as a criteria for evaluating people. In fact, people with money have to say something smart before I consider them. And yet I am warped because I would kill to get a Porsche 911 in my driveway. And a ranch? Horses on my ranch?

There's a passage in 1984 where Smith reads "the book" and they mention classes in society.

The highest class has power and money. They want to stay right where they are.

Middle class is chaos. They want power and money from the Rich, and they use the lower class to get elected. When they are elected, they forget the poor and become the Higher class.

Lower class helps the middle class while dreaming of a fair society and justice for all. It is the only class who dreams of socialism and communisme. They never change class.

But I can we can always dream that we are free because we can say that 2+2=4.

Boy, what a downer. I need more coffee...

Gedeon

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:41 PM

GEDEON

Oh, and I just checked out your profile...

I don't know how you're gonna do it, but I think it should involve Processed Cheeze...

Gedeon

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:48 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

You make Batman cry.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:54 PM

GEDEON

LOL. Yeah, he's sensitive...

Where are you anyways.

I'm in Montréal, Quebec, and I have been accepted recently as a Montreal Browncoat

Most of us are francophones, but it's all in english if you want to check it out.

Gedeon

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:06 PM

GEDEON

Quote:
laws are forged by men and women, people of flesh and blood and sin. Nothing that lives is innocent.

That's put a buzz in my mind right there.

Sin? What's this about sin. What is a sin. Thou shall not kill doesn't apply to wolves, or even to birds killing a worm. It's a human concept, and you're right, if I was a thief powerful enough to make laws, I'd put loopholes gallore...

what a bitter-sweet symphony that's life
You're slave to the money and then you die...

Gedeon

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:22 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

Je parle in the French. Je ne pas very good at it parce que it's been a long temp since I spoketh it, et mon professeur was how do you say... una pendejo estupido.

Sin is action committed with malice.

As for the cheese, I could infect the water supply with a chemical that makes people lactose intolerant, creating a plague of flatulence so great that the world's atmosphere will be covered with poisonous gas. I will then auction off a recipe for a special cheese that does not affect those with lactose intolerance, making trillions in the process.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:31 PM

GEDEON

We agree then.

Here's another thought that will confuse Batman:

In the Serenity movie, the planet had something added to the air, with results I won't mention if you haven't see it yet.

The road to hell is paved with good intensions.

I believe (this is my set of values at work here) that there can also be Sin without malice. A more-to-the-point fact would be the state of the amazonian forest. Canadian forests also, for that matter. I don't want to sound like Edward Abbey, but justice may well slip away from us if we spend all our waking hours paying rent...

Oh, and the Lactose intolerant thing: I love it. Noone could say they never Huan Gua Pi (Badger says that, refering to noble people who have never smelled a fart before...)

Gedeon

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:46 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

It's really not a sin when an "evil" act is created without malice, that has more to do with ignorance, stupidity, apathy, or lack of foresight.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 3:32 PM

SHINYTALENT

I don't think that humans can dictate what justice is. Humans by nature are greedy and they like to act in their own best interest. We are also inclined to justify our own actions but condemn others for doing the same thing.

It's nice to say that the law is their to protect us, but when you look at statistics those that are being protected are the ones that can pay for the protection.

I don't believe we can cleanse our laws and justice system of man's influence, but we can't expect everyone to adhere to Christianity's laws because then we are condemning other people beliefs.
There is no easy answer here.

The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds given adequate vacuuming systems.

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 4:27 PM

CHRISISALL

Justice is logical response.

If I get drunk and drive off a cliff, I die, and this is justice.
If I see a child being attacked and I stop the attacker using only the necessary means, this is justice.
If I kill another person for fun or profit, I will give up my life, this is justice.
If I vote for leaders that place value on human life, more so than on power or money, this is justice.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 4:50 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

Quote:
Originally posted by shinytalent:
I don't think that humans can dictate what justice is. Humans by nature are greedy and they like to act in their own best interest. We are also inclined to justify our own actions but condemn others for doing the same thing.

It's nice to say that the law is their to protect us, but when you look at statistics those that are being protected are the ones that can pay for the protection.

I don't believe we can cleanse our laws and justice system of man's influence, but we can't expect everyone to adhere to Christianity's laws because then we are condemning other people beliefs.
There is no easy answer here.

That is the problem isn't it? The human factor. Like it or not, our justice system is dictated by the will of humans and we have to deal with it. Not only do we have to deal with it, we have to refine it just as we refine everything else in the world. Justice must be bled of its taint and it must advance in accords to the progression of society so that it may serve as best as it can.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:42 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
What is a sin.

"What is sin? Sin is that which harms another unnecessarily. All else is mere pecadillo."
--Star, Empress of the Twenty Universes, as reported by Robert A. Heinlein in his novel Glory Road.

"Harming yourself isn't sinful. Just stupid." -- Lazarus Long

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