TALK STORY

Totally OT!: The Lovin' Y

POSTED BY: SARAHETC
UPDATED: Saturday, March 8, 2003 09:45
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Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:42 AM

WULFHAWK


Cockatoo.

Capable of 100 decibel screeches, these sharp- eared jungle denizens will interrupt phone calls with deafening effect. The seem to hear your conversations, even recognize who is on the other end. Some folks get the 'friends call', but some callers elicit the 'warning screech'.

very much a phone kinda critter.


tanstaafl

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Thursday, March 6, 2003 6:01 AM

LOSTANGEL


Hmmm. A cockatoo. Not as dignified a mascot as I had hoped for, but then again my boyfriend would say that any animal that emits a 100 decibel screech would be my perfect companion.

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?


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Thursday, March 6, 2003 6:46 AM

SARAHETC


Our mascot is Succatash! Duh!

And the ways it's working now, the mongoose spends most of its time in a little crate or stretchnig its legs locked in a bathroom.

The fajitas were good, as usual. Gotta love little mom and pop places that know you when you come in.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Thursday, March 6, 2003 7:30 AM

LOSTANGEL


But the mongoose is gonna do somethin' at some point, right? When I think of the mongoose, I think of the ferret on the Budweiser commercials that upstaged the iguanas.

Yeah, I know what you mean about mom and pop places. There's this mexican restaurant that is always so booked, it's the hottest place in town, but they are so nice. They never kick you out or make you feel rushed, no matter how many people are waiting for a table.

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?


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Thursday, March 6, 2003 7:32 AM

WULFHAWK


If there is anything better than rural, small town America ... it's probably science fiction.
8)

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Thursday, March 6, 2003 7:47 PM

SUCCATASH


Hey Wulf, come on out to Small Town Utah America and get yourself some wives!

Has YOUR mom seen Firefly, lately?

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Friday, March 7, 2003 4:46 AM

LOSTANGEL


Oh good, I was meaning to bring this up anyway:

I'm not being sarcastic or mean, but if husbands can have multiple wives in the Morman religion, how come wives can't have multiple husbands?

I'm serious about this, I am curious.

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?


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Friday, March 7, 2003 5:15 AM

SARAHETC


*beats head against keyboard*

*channels Folk Implosion*

*takes notes for next Chronicle*

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Friday, March 7, 2003 5:50 AM

KAYTHRYN


Here are my thoughts LostAngel,

Helpful definitions to start,
Polygamy- Having more than one husband OR wife at the same time.
Polyandry- Having more than one husband at a time.
Polygyny- Having more than one wife at a time.

Mormons practice polygyny if I am correct (men can have many wife’s) but not polyandry (where women can have many husbands). Most cultures that accept some from of polygamy accepts polygyny instead of polyandry, and the basic reason is that it is historical. (That all just means that most cultures that say people are allowed to be married to more than one person, say that it only applies to the men, and they can have many wife’s.)
Think back when most of the population on earth lived in small groups. ( This is not in religious terms but evolutionary). To survive, generally, it is easier with more people in your group, more food gathers, more hunters, more helpers, and later on, more people on your side in conflicts. (An example would be farming families that have lots of children to help with the work).
Now for another visual. Polygamy at base is a lot like breeding animals. You really only need one male (a few more is preferable to avoid birth defects caused by incest ) and a bunch of females. The one, or few number of males can get tons of females pregnant, but it doesn’t work the other way around. One female can not produce as many children with many males.
Other animals also practice polygamy. In fact, there are few creatures who believe in life long relationships. ( I cannot think of any off the top of my head but there are some). Only the best, and most powerful males are allowed to mate, and with many of the females. Elephant seals are one example. When only the best males mate with the females, they have a better chance of passing on their favorable genes, and “weeding out the bad”.
I am assuming that with Mormons, they have just tied this evolutionary mating system into their religion and that is why it is still around today in our culture. Because of the number of people in our culture, polygamy in no longer needed as it was, and that is one reason why many people think committed relationships have come about. Sadly is all sounds like population control.
This is just one theory. I really don’t know much about the Mormon religion, so anyone else willing to put in their two cents, I’d love to hear about it.

-------------------------------------
Jayne: Hey, I didn't fight in no war. Best of luck, though.

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Friday, March 7, 2003 6:33 AM

LOSTANGEL


I kinda figured out the evolutionary reasons and such, but are there any religious reasons?

I know there's some mormons out there. Help me understand your religion. I don't want the info to make fun of you, I just want to know more about cultures/religions that I have no first hand knowledge of, and this is one of those questions that you can't just ask your buddies about. Well if you don't have any mormon buddies anyway.

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?


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Friday, March 7, 2003 7:42 AM

WULFHAWK


modern (last few thousand years or so) polygamy may have distant roots in evolutionary strategies, but is based on the concept of daughters and women as chattel. Chattel is not quite property. It refers to things that must be managed, like land, but are portable, like livestock.

Women as self-sufficient individuals is a fairly modern concept, only a few hundred years old. Women as self-determining persons is very new, something like a century. Just look around outside the US, you'll see what it was like.

Most religions are male-centric, with the diety, prophets, and representatives restricted to males. I'm not versed in the multitude of bibles, but most were clearly written by and for men. Recall that biblical king David had 400+ wives.

woops, lunch over, more later


tanstaafl

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Friday, March 7, 2003 12:37 PM

WULFHAWK


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
modern (last few thousand years or so) polygamy may have distant roots in evolutionary strategies, but is based on the concept of daughters and women as chattel. Chattel is not quite property. It refers to things that must be managed, like land, but are portable, like livestock.

Women as self-sufficient individuals is a fairly modern concept, only a few hundred years old. Women as self-determining persons is very new, something like a century. Just look around outside the US, you'll see what it was like.

Most religions are male-centric, with the diety, prophets, and representatives restricted to males. I'm not versed in the multitude of bibles, but most were clearly written by and for men. Recall that biblical king David had 400+ wives.

woops, lunch over, more later


tanstaafl



To my (admittedly very limited) knowledge, I don't know of any religious mandate anywhere to have multiple wives. More to the point, I have never heard a major religion requires it. In fact, major religions previously allowing multiple wives have and are going through monogamous reform. Despite The Prophet's writings and habits, the Church of Latter Day Saints no longer recognizes polygamous union.

Now to tie all this rambling together.

Man administrates religion, and until very recently, men administrated women. In some cases, religious and civil law still allow men to have multiple wives, but do not require it. It is hardly suprising that the historical attitude of women as chattel would be supported by religion.
Yet, polygamy wasn't/isn't mandatory. Basically, if you could afford it, you could take extra wives. During most of the time and places polygamy was supported, polygamy was a rich man's game. Are you suprised that rich, influential, religious men had many wives? Sure, Joe Blacksmith could grab him some extra wives, but he was working himself to death to support his household with just one wife. More well-to-do men might offer brideprice on an extra wife or two, essentially 'buying' a live-in maid/mistress.
No, monogamy is the best way to populate, the cheapest way to procreate, and the cornerstone of every popular reformed religion. Polygamy, as practiced historically, was expensive, and a sure way to piss off the other men of your community.

I think that polygamy was never encouraged, and except as a reward or charitable necessity(taking in of widows), limited to the top men of their times. They didn't have Ferrari's then, so were forced to collect wives instead.



tanstaafl

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Friday, March 7, 2003 1:11 PM

LOSTANGEL


The reason I ask is that I saw an episode of some documentary show that showed "fundamentalist" mormons not only practicing polygamy, but incest with that polygamy. I think they said there was a line in their bible that said something to the effect of in so long as they are virgins, you may take as many wives as you can.

From what I gathered, only the fundamentalist mormons still practice it, but they keep their wives, who are in many cases also their neices, virtual prisoners with the whole lack of education, strictly monitored, etc.

I was just trying to figure out why women weren't allowed multiple husbands from a religious point of view. I understand how many religious practices stem from politcal reasons, I was just wondering if there was something I missed.

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?


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Friday, March 7, 2003 3:55 PM

KAYTHRYN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
Polygamy, as practiced historically, was expensive, and a sure way to piss off the other men of your community.
I think that polygamy was never encouraged, and except as a reward or charitable necessity(taking in of widows), limited to the top men of their times. They didn't have Ferrari's then, so were forced to collect wives instead.



I don’t see it. I am like you in the respect that I don’t have any great knowledge of religion, but I do know a little bit on the subject of cultural polygamy.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
Polygamy, as practiced historically, was expensive, and a sure way to piss off the other men of your community.


Maybe you are thinking about one particular culture where polygamy isn’t the norm for everyone. (Such as polygamy in the United States where one a few people practice it). I remember a few years ago, when ever I heard about polygamy I used to think about rich sheiks in the middle east and their 40 or 50 wife’s. But today, the cultures that come to mind when I think about polygamy don’t have these problems you are talking about.
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
Polygamy, as practiced historically, was expensive,…


Generally, polygamy isn’t being practiced as the rich sheiks do or have done. Women are not objects, but workers. A man who is married to many women may be considered richer than a man who is only married to one woman, but it is not solely because he “owns” more women. Most brides, and their families pay money to the groom, and his side of the family when they marry, instead of the other way around. And these wife’s will then work on a farm, or create products to sell, such as clothing, and support the family. Sometimes when a man plans to marry a woman she will ask that he also marries her sister, that way when they move far away, back to his home, she can have her sister along with her.

In other cultures where the form of polygamy they practice is where a woman can have many husbands, the reason fits their lifestyle. In one culture different men are gone different times of the year for months at a time hunting and trading. In this culture the women each take a few husbands. In the end, it works out that each husband is home in roughly equal intervals, and sometimes more than one husband is home at a time. This system works out for many reason, one is because there are fewer women in this culture compared to men. Having more husbands means each woman has a larger income, and everyone is taken care of. Men always have someone to come home to, and the women always have some one at home.

Quote:

…and a sure way to piss off the other men of your community. I think that polygamy was never encouraged, and except as a reward or charitable necessity…

As I said before, maybe you are thinking about a culture where the mainstream views are not that with polygamy, but in cultures where they believe in polygamy, people are not upset by it. I’m sure there is one man who may not like it, but I only say that because in every culture there is someone who is upset by something. Also, polygamy is only practiced when it is convenient, and fitting with the culture. A group that has 50 men, and 50 women would probably not agree to polygamy, but a group of people like the Mormons in Utah are not “depleting the supply” of women in their area by practicing polygamy. There are thousand of other women for men to seek out so no one is left alone or “pissed off”.

Sorry LostAngel, I know this isn’t what you asked about, but I can’t help myself, this is an intresting topic. And thanks Wulfhawk, it is nice to find someone intelligent to debate these kinds of things with.

-------------------------------------
Jayne: Hey, I didn't fight in no war. Best of luck, though.

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Friday, March 7, 2003 6:33 PM

WULFHAWK


Kayt, I'm unaware of any culture today that practices polygamy in the fashions you describe.

In Saudi Arabia, money and influence means men can, and often do, take extra wives. This isn't much about being religious, though religion allows it. It's about culture and history. Hareems are part of the culture, past and present. And the extra men, those without wives or prospects, can always be dragged into the army. And while I was exaggerating about 'pissed off', it's clear that, without some kind of monarchy/oligarchy to support it, institutional polygamy is doomed.

If you're talkin India, or further east, then I'm in the dark. Buddhism is less than religion and more philosophy, so I think it doesn't either forbid or extoll polygamy. This kind of situational polygamy I understand, but it hasn't got much religious significance.

Polygamy IS practiced in the United States, both by religious 'fundamentalists', and private citizens. Do some websearchin, you'll find considerable about it. 8) The attraction of multiple sexual partners, increased income, and reduced overhead is...attractive. LOL

tanstaafl

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Saturday, March 8, 2003 6:02 AM

KAYTHRYN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
Kayt, I'm unaware of any culture today that practices polygamy in the fashions you describe.



Let me clarify,
Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Generally, polygamy isn’t being practiced as the rich sheiks do or have done. Women are not objects, but workers. A man who is married to many women may be considered richer than a man who is only married to one woman, but it is not solely because he “owns” more women. Most brides, and their families pay money to the groom, and his side of the family when they marry, instead of the other way around. And these wife’s will then work on a farm, or create products to sell, such as clothing, and support the family.



Polygyny (Many women married to one man) is found mostly in horticultural societies that have a high level of productivity. One such group of people that allow women to marry more than one man at a time, are the Tiwi of North Australia. There are many factors that allow polygyny to work in this group. For one ,the women tend to live longer than the men. Number two, their society says that all women have to be married, even infants. Until the women come to age, their marriage isn’t a sexual one, and they still live at home with their parents. Number three, the more women in the family, the more food gatherers, thus the better off the family is. Now, in this system the men do NOT control everything, and reap all of the rewards. For a woman, marrying a man who has many other wife’s has its advantages. From the moment an infant is “married” to a young man, or boy, that male begins doing work and providing food for her side of the family. Until her first pregnancy she is allowed social and sexual freedom, while still being cared for. And finally, as the years go by, the older she gets, the more control in the family she has.


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
In other cultures where the form of polygamy they practice is where a woman can have many husbands, the reason fits their lifestyle. In one culture different men are gone different times of the year for months at a time hunting and trading. In this culture the women each take a few husbands. In the end, it works out that each husband is home in roughly equal intervals, and sometimes more than one husband is home at a time. This system works out for many reason, one is because there are fewer women in this culture compared to men. Having more husbands means each woman has a larger income, and everyone is taken care of. Men always have someone to come home to, and the women always have some one at home.




Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
If you're talkin India, or further east, then I'm in the dark.



This is probably why you don’t know of the groups I’m talking about. Polyandry (one woman married to more than one man) is found in parts of Tibet, and Nepal and among the Toda and Pahari Hindus of India. Polyandry may be an adaptation to a shortage of females possibly caused by female infanticide among the Toda and Tibetans. In these societies where men must be away for long periods of time, women are able to have more than one husband to take care of them at a time. In Tibet, polyandry appears to be related to the shortage of land. If several men marry one woman, this keeps down the number of children a man has to support. If brothers marry the same woman, land can then be kept within the family rather than fragmented over the generations. (When Brothers marrying the same woman it is called fraternal polyandry).


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Sometimes when a man plans to marry a woman she will ask that he also marries her sister, that way when they move far away, back to his home, she can have her sister along with her.



That is called sororal polygyny.


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
And while I was exaggerating about 'pissed off', it's clear that, without some kind of monarchy/oligarchy to support it, institutional polygamy is doomed.



I agree. That is why I’m not concretely counting in my arguments polygamous relationships that are not accepted by local law, or with a lack thereof, accepted by cultural norms. In every culture there are going to be a few people who throw off any kind of statement you make, so everything has to be generalized, or very specific.


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
Polygamy IS practiced in the United States, both by religious 'fundamentalists', and private citizens. Do some websearchin, you'll find considerable about it. 8) The attraction of multiple sexual partners, increased income, and reduced overhead is...attractive. LOL


I understand that polygamy is practiced in the US, but I’m just saying it is not the norm. Fewer people practice polygamous relationships in the US than those who practice monogamous ones. And when you say it like that is does sound... attractive.


-------------------------------------
Jayne: Hey, I didn't fight in no war. Best of luck, though.

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Saturday, March 8, 2003 7:29 AM

WULFHAWK


I'm thinkin there are two basic kinds of polygamy. One kind is an evolved social survival strategy, the other a less beneficial arrangement approaching slavery. Humanity is quite inventive that way. My ignorance is deep, but I know of no religion that requires polygamy, but many support/allow the social convention. LostAngel, as Kayt has pointed out so astutely, almost any style of polyliving is out there somewhere. I hope we've helped answer your question.

If you're wondering why isn't polygamy more predominant, well...
Men are stupid, that's why 8)

tanstaafl

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Saturday, March 8, 2003 9:45 AM

KAYTHRYN


Good explanation. I wish I had that kind of logic Wulfhawk.

-------------------------------------
Jayne: Hey, I didn't fight in no war. Best of luck, though.

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