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Originally posted by EmpireX:

I was reading a Riverfic the other day... it was set post-BDM and River was paired up romantically with a Main Character (I don't want to say who the main character was because I'm not wanting to point fingers at a particular author or 'ship - this is an occurrance that happens a lot with Riverfic in general. It was just this particular fic that made me stop and think about it.)

For some reason, the fic wasn't clicking with me. The romantic parts made me feel a bit uneasy. I wondered why it seemed so "off". Then it hit me.

The author was writing River the way Summer had portrayed her in the series, not the movie. And that made a huge difference. In the series, River was a teenager who seemed to have reverted back to a child-like state. In the movie - I don't know if this was at Joss's direction or if Summer just grew more confidant and mature in her acting choices - River's still a bit crazy, but not with that same child-like innocence. She looks, speaks, and dresses like a woman, albeit a whimsical one.

I actually saw the movie before I watched the series, so this particular pairing makes sense to me - but this fic made the Very Beloved Main Character seem a bit - pedophilic?- which is all kinds of icky and upsetting!

I guess this post is supposed to be a helpful hint or reminder to those authors who bravely write River-fic. She certainly is a very difficult character to write for, but be aware of how you portray her in fiction. It's a big turnoff to read about a character who behaves and thinks like a fourteen year old hopping in the sack with a thirty-year-old man, doesn't matter which one.

I'm just sayin'... It's kinda ... ya know... confusing and it makes me feel dirty for reading it. Does this make any sense? What do you guys think?

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Originally posted by asarian:
I couldn't agree more (though, for this topic, I'd be willing to try).

Icky stuff concerning River is the main reason I don't read fanfic. And though I certainly find her beautiful, I don't think of her in terms of "sexy" or "hot". To me, the whole River persona, and her innocence, and a whole crew recognizing that innocence, and willing to protect it, is a huge part of why I love Firefly so much. All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

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Originally posted by asarian:

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Originally posted by asarian:
really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

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“River's still a bit crazy, but not with that same child-like innocence. She looks, speaks, and dresses like a woman, albeit a whimsical one.”

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But saying that River can’t be relationships with basically anybody is really what does a disservice, since she’s being denied a chance to experience an integral part of human existence because of some third-party declaration.

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“The same thing for rapefic. A rape or attempted rape should not be used as a catalyst for romance. I'm fairly certain that when a woman has been raped, having any kind of sex would be the last thing on her mind, even if it is with a certain handsome captain/doctor/mercenary.”

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Originally posted by Romanceguru:

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But saying that River can’t be relationships with basically anybody is really what does a disservice, since she’s being denied a chance to experience an integral part of human existence because of some third-party declaration.

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Very well put Blueyedbrigader!

I’m also a Rayne aficionado, but that unfortunately can turn into a whole other debate.

I also disagree with this estimation:

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“The same thing for rapefic. A rape or attempted rape should not be used as a catalyst for romance. I'm fairly certain that when a woman has been raped, having any kind of sex would be the last thing on her mind, even if it is with a certain handsome captain/doctor/mercenary.”

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Everyone deals and handles the trama rape differently, and unfortunately, it’s a part of life. I’m in no way saying that it’s romantic, but it is an issue that deserves, as any, to be explored. Obviously, I do not know all the details of the fic in which you are referring, but to say that every woman reacts the same by closing herself off to future sexual relationships is just not true.

A well-written romance involving River is more interesting to read for me than any other character-centric fic’s because of the many different obstacles there is to explore and overcome. To literarily vindicate something that is considered taboo is wherein the beauty and art of fanfic lies.


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"Hell is coming to breakfast"

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You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is.

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Originally posted by Romanceguru:

I think it has a lot to do on how we perceive River. As stated in the threads above, some see her as “weak” and therefore unable to make the choice to enter into an adult relationship with a man, especially a much older one. I do not see her as such. It saddens me that just because River is at times disturbed (and we know this less so after the BDM) that she cannot be allowed the same desires as any other girl/woman..”

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"What kind of man would want to be with someone who would be a malleable student more than an equal partner? Creepy ones."

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Originally posted by Romanceguru:
To further this point, she has been given the responsibility of co-piloting the ship. If River is being allowed to hold the lives of others in her hands, she most certainly can “pilot” her own life.

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Conversely, old-fashion views are intermingled within this society and you should keep in mind that would have included much older men being paired with younger women, so in that respect it would not be seen as “creepy”.

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You can't arbitrarily say that experience changes a person and not apply that to River. Given her experience, she's years older in wisdom than anyone on that ship, Mal and Zoe included.

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How can you expect her to gain that sort of knowledge if you deny her the experience of it?

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“Plus, you keep bringing up the point of her life experience and use that to claim that River is mature and has overcome a lot, but... not really.”

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“Just because River can run a ship, don't necessarily mean she's ready to be IN one.”

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“Her life experience?”

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“Present company excluded, it's my estimation that the loudest advocates of teenage sex are usually people interested not so much in the teen's right to their own sexuality, as much as in their "right" to the teen's sexuality. So, when a thirty-five-year-old crew member is suddenly romantically interested in River, and goes on about how much River is capable of making her own decisions and such, I figure I gotta be asking myself some fairly fundamental questions about the nature of that interest.”

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“But Jayne? Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous words: "It's a girl. Cute, too, but I don't think she's all there. 'Course, not all of her has to be." Definitely shudder-worthy.”

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“Sure, there have always been old men and young teenage girls, and the former lusting after the latter. And, all throughout history, men have raped and pillaged. And waged war. I mean, on some planets; but only pretty bad ones. I guess that's a commentary on us. Don't make us beholden to follow in these footsteps, of course. Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures.”

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Originally posted by Romanceguru:

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“Present company excluded, it's my estimation that the loudest advocates of teenage sex are usually people interested not so much in the teen's right to their own sexuality, as much as in their "right" to the teen's sexuality. So, when a thirty-five-year-old crew member is suddenly romantically interested in River, and goes on about how much River is capable of making her own decisions and such, I figure I gotta be asking myself some fairly fundamental questions about the nature of that interest.”

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Excluded or not, your generalizing the mind-set Rayneship authors have. This is laugh worthy, really. Most writers of fan-fiction are mature adults who have the ability to see things more than one-sidedly. You don’t throw a fiction together without tirelessly exploring the reasons for the how in the why. Your really naïve if you think an 18yr or 19yr old, (again the age most authors use) is not going to be interested in exploring her sexuality.

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“Sure, there have always been old men and young teenage girls, and the former lusting after the latter. And, all throughout history, men have raped and pillaged. And waged war. I mean, on some planets; but only pretty bad ones. I guess that's a commentary on us. Don't make us beholden to follow in these footsteps, of course. Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures.”

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Wow. That is one powerful comparison. Cannot even begin to see how that is relevant.

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“I'm just saying that if a thirty-five year old man wants to date a teenage girl, that you can bet I will be asking myself some serious questions as to why. And that I will be highly suspcious, and assume he's more into it for himself than for her.”

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I think, at the end of the BDM, Jayne, at best, tolerates the Tams' presence. Don't change the matter none that I think he's too old for River.

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It was brought forth that bad things are not without precedent, and that history is replete with examples of older men and younger girls. To which I added my two coppers, that bad things done in history, used as justification for current or future practices, really make for lousy moral guidelines.

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Originally posted by Romanceguru:

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It was brought forth that bad things are not without precedent, and that history is replete with examples of older men with younger girls. To which I added my two coppers, that bad things done in history, used as justification for current or future practices, really make for lousy moral guidelines.

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Comparing the relationship between an older man and a younger woman is not relatable to raping and pillaging no matter how you word it.

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Have you ever read the novel Jane Eyre? It’s a lovely and revered romantic classic about an 18 year old girl and a middle aged man. There are also positive and beautiful examples through out history supporting such relationships, you just have to open your eyes.

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Originally posted by Arcadia:

I like Jane Eyre as much as the next person -- it is quite an enjoyable book -- but I don't think it applies here at all. Marriages of young women to older men where common in that period, and why? Because marriage was more of a bussiness for women than a romantic persuit. It was all about getting bang for your buck -- a man who you don't mind too much, and maybe even enjoy if you're lucky, in exchange for a lifetime of being taken care of. If you don't think that reality influenced the feelings of women (and women characters) of that time, then you might want to think about it again. If Jane Eyre was born in the later 20th century I don't think she would have been interested in Rochester. She was smart and resourseful and would have gotten a scholarship and gone to college and lived her life indepentently. She wouldn't need him like she does as a women in the 1800s, and probably wouldn't want him because she'd have the opportunity to be with anyone.

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And River... People keep talking about what she has overcome. As far as I am concerned, she has not really overcome anything. She survived. She lived through hell, and she lived through the confusion that followed, the insanity. Now, it looks like she has gained some clarity. What does that mean? It means it will get even harder. Now, she can go through the horrible process of processing what happened to her. She's never really dealt with what happened to her. How could she? She's had no control over her emotions or her mind, of any part of her life. She has it now, and that is going to be traumatic in its own way. Its a good step in the long run, but it is still going to be a hard adjustment.

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“And by that I mean, she has not explored her personality -- her interests, her hobbies -- for a long time. How long has it been since she's read a book, learned a new dance?”

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All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

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Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Now mind you, I wasn't on fan-sites at the time, but my question is this:

Where were the people defending said character's virtue (for lack of a better term), when a certain sixteen-year-old slayer and a 240-year-old vampire were shacking up?

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Now mind you, I wasn't on fan-sites at the time, but my question is this:

Where were the people defending said character's virtue (for lack of a better term), when a certain sixteen-year-old slayer and a 240-year-old vampire were shacking up?

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To be honest, I DO find Angel/Buffy creepy, as well.

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Originally posted by Romanceguru:
Most of the characters on the show are a contradiction to morality.

Please do not hold them to your rigorous ideals. There is vast room for interpretation in the verse.

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“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

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I think the very fact that many characters make morally questionable choices is supposed to make the intelligent viewer question those choices. It's a commentary on humanity, not a free pass for murder, theft and violence.

When they cross lines, we are supposed to judge them.

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I guess where I'm coming from here, is that before completely writing off the idea of River in a relationship with someone older (and it doesn't have to be crew), consider the fact that it can be done in an intelligent, thought-provoking manner.

Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes. Yes, River will always have problems. Yes, it will be hard for her to adjust socially. But that's not to say that she can't adjust at all. Viewers would have lost interest if River was treated like a child for the duration of the series. I think that if the series continued, we would have seen River making more choices about her life (regarding a relationship or not), and I think that it's understandable that people would want to explore that in fan fiction.

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Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes.

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But, as I said above, it seems to me we are mainly arguing about whether she would have a stable, lasting relationship with Jayne (or Mal, but mostly Jayne)

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You know, now that I think about it, we're all looking at this from the wrong perspective. I mean, for heaven's sake, it's Joss we're talking about. If the series had continued, no one would have been happy. He would have found a way for everyone's relationship to be ruined...course, this wouldn't be looking at things from the perspective of fan fiction. What was the original topic of this thread again?

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

I've been having thoughts about something Asarian got into waaaay back:

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All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

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I must go further with this idea of the fabric of Firefly, because it's such a strong idea.

As I see it, the main story to Firefly/Serenity is Mal's ongoing conflict with the Alliance. River's character serves as the push to get him back into that battle. She's an innocent that got trampled by the Alliance, and as such she brings out a protective instinct in the crew. OK, not in Jayne, but certainly in Mal. Because he chooses to protect her, and not to abandon her, she gets them all to Miranda. She's like the drop that starts the flood or something like that.

Her role is to return idealism and self-sacrifice to a hardened and self-serving crew, and her youth and inexperience are absolutely necessary for that. The fact that she's half fighting machine just heightens the tragedy of what the Alliance has done to her, because River herself is not a killer. The part of her they created and control through subconscious triggers is the killer. In the movie, she finds a way to reach that part of herself, but she does it to save the people she loves. She's still very much an innocent - and even more tragic because she's accepted this dark part of herself that she abhors, sacrificing some of her innocence to save her brother.

So... having River just jump into bed with Mal or Jayne (oh yes, there are those fics where it's that simple. "I'm 18 now, I'm going to bed who I want!" *shudder*) completely goes against what Joss has so carefully set up. It's not something I can stomach.

IMNSHO.

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