Fic ratings - how do YOU do it? by mal4prez

Quote:
Originally posted by BornToFly:
The way I see it, you get points for trying, and having the courage to post it on a public forum.

Absolutely! It is terrifying to post in public, and I love how comments never get cruel here. At least - not that I've seen. As I hear it, this is one of the strengths of our fandom; FFF is more welcoming than most others. (I don't know for sure, never been a fan of anything else!)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Personally, I only rate the ones I do approve of enough to comment and those tend to get high ratings simply because almost every aspect works for me. I'm picky.

I'm with you on that! I don't tend to read or rate or offer criticism unless I like it, or see some redeeming qualities in something rough.

Quote:

I don't want to punish people for not writing to my taste. I may mock them in my head, but I realize that others love their stuff and even if my head says "wrong-wrong-wrong!" people have the right to like what they like without being declared incapable of writing.

I get what you're saying... and excellent point! It seems wrong to rate something poorly based on a writer's choice of plot.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:56 AM

LEIASKY

I don't bother anymore to leave feedback/rate something that I just don't like. I'm real picky when it comes to reading stories in the Firefly 'verse.

Someone above said its about the reader. Well, really, it IS. If the reader is moved by whatever is written (good or bad), its their right to comment on it. I've not run into too many places where there have been outright flames, but there's nothing wrong with an opinion that doesn't agree, so long it doesn't attack the author.

People say they want criticism, but when you actually leave some, you find they really don't. Usually, non-cannon pairing authors tend to be the most sensitive to criticism because they have to do a lot more to convince a reader that pairing is at all believable.

So unless I know the person and know they will truly accept criticism for what it is - my opinion on the way they've written their story, (usually characterization) I just don't bother anymore.

My whole point is, I only rate something now that I bother to read, which isn't much, and are usually authors I know are good or have been suggested to me.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:31 AM

NOSADSEVEN

If I have an opinion about a fic that I want to share, or that I think will contribute to the experience of the author and/or readers, I will. But I find the numerical ratings generally useless, and don't think I have ever even left one.

I guess it can be used as a way to let the author know you read and enjoyed their work, or as an ongoing way to share an overall reaction from chapter to chapter of a larger work, but if I feel compelled to do that, I prefer to use words. The numerical rating system offers no standardized guidelines, so it means different things to different people. And the fact that it is voluntary means that many people will avoid entering a low rating because their goal is not to tear someone's work down. Combine that with the general difficulty of quantifying the value of an artistic expression, and it's pretty much meaningless, IMHO.

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Ain't. We. Just.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:39 AM

AERIALLA

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:

People say they want criticism, but when you actually leave some, you find they really don't. Usually, non-cannon pairing authors tend to be the most sensitive to criticism because they have to do a lot more to convince a reader that pairing is at all believable.

So unless I know the person and know they will truly accept criticism for what it is - my opinion on the way they've written their story, (usually characterization) I just don't bother anymore.

I am really new to the verse having only gained my love for it this past fall. (What can I say..I'm a late bloomer.)

I have just recently posted my first two fics. I am a person that can take criticism and welcome it as long as I am not being bashed. Constructive criticism helps to make me a better writer.

I am trying to respond to replies so that I can explain a fact that someone may not have seen.
If I recieve a rating I want to know why someone rated it the way they did, whether it's high or low. It doesn't mean I have to feel the same way, but it helps so that I have things to think about for the next thing I write.

Writing is sharing a part of who you are and how you picture the world, or in this case the verse. Many people put so much of themselves into their stories and feel like any criticism is aimed at them personally rather than the story.

Someday I want to finish the novel I have been working on for the past three years and if I can't cut the criticism from fellow fans then I need to stick to my day job.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:53 AM

It takes all kinds to make the world go ‘round. Unfortunately, some are pedaling in the wrong direction...

Aaahhh, a question that has been nagging at my simple psyche as well. It does flatter the ego to receive a story rating above an eight. However, one of my chapters received a six, which blew me away since I really liked writing the chapter. But I'm willing to accept criticism, especially from those who follow the series so closely. Folks took issue with a particular situation within the story, which was a valid point. Now, that point was addressed in a later chapter, which everyone approved of then, but hey, I'm just glad people are paying close enough attention to be upset by something rather surprising.

I've given mostly high scores, because if I'm willing and able to read a chapter all the way through, it has to have been pretty damn good. Not enough time to waste on bad writing. Now for a good story with decent dialogue and characterizaton, I'll give between an eight and a nine. If the story grabs me, keeps me on the edge of my seat, and has perfect dialogue and characterization, it gets a ten. Am I a Rhodes scholar, heck no. But I've read a book or two in my time, seen a few movies and I know what I like.

To all those thinking of submitting, give it a go. Don't be shy. There's something out there for everyone.

"How did your brain even learn human speech? Really, I'm curious."

Rob O.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by aerialla:
I have just recently posted my first two fics. I am a person that can take criticism and welcome it as long as I am not being bashed. Constructive criticism helps to make me a better writer.

Welcome to the posting 'verse! Always good to have another writer, especially someone who writes angsty Mal.

Quote:
Someday I want to finish the novel I have been working on for the past three years and if I can't cut the criticism from fellow fans then I need to stick to my day job.

Excellent point - that's my take as well. And you bring up the issue about writers taking comments personally. It's hard not to, because writing is so personal. I'm still working on that. I often have to set aside my beta comments for a few days before I can face them LOL!

Anyway, that's part of why I prefer to rate based on the technical aspects of someone's writing, rather than the basic storyline. Everyone's got their own ideas of the situations they want to read about, and that can't be given a number. But if a writer can't form a complete sentence or take the time to notice gaping holes in their plot, I won't give a high score (well, I won't read far and won't comment either!)

So, yeah, kicking guy, I feel for you getting nailed over a story because of a unsettling "situation." That's kind of what I'm trying to plumb with this thread - I suspect that the priority of readers of fanfic is plot, not technique. Kind of makes me sad, because even the best plot falls flat if it's not presented well.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:09 PM

It takes all kinds to make the world go ‘round. Unfortunately, some are pedaling in the wrong direction...

It burns, it burns! Just kidding. I like the criticism. Like I always say, it makes me better at this writing gig. And if one is a serious writer who plans on attempting a publication, criticism is a HUGE part of the game. Did ANYONE like seeing Wash get speared at the end of Serenity? I don't think so. Did it have a huge impact on the plot? Hell, yeah. Did anyone expect it? Again, I don't think so. Did Joss probably get some hate-mail over it? I'd bet a large portion of my next meager paycheck.

Now, do I think people should go all Simon Cowell on folk, probably not. But the rating system is also anonymous, so fire away, I say.

Rob O.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:13 PM

Who's Simon Cowell? (enquiring minds want to know

)

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 4:42 AM

It takes all kinds to make the world go ‘round. Unfortunately, some are pedaling in the wrong direction...

Here's a quote to stimulate your memory. "That was quite possibly the worst thing I've ever heard. If you ever get the urge to sing again, let it go."

Does that help?

"And I'm thinkin' your weren't burdened with an overabundance of schoolin'."

Rob O.

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 5:57 AM

*scratches head*

I got nothing.

Edit: ah-hah!! It's from that new star searchy show. Sorry, I avoid it like the plaque.

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 6:11 AM

It takes all kinds to make the world go ‘round. Unfortunately, some are pedaling in the wrong direction...

And for a witty commentary, the judges give Mal4Prez........ three and three quarter stars!

Anyway, I hope that everyone considering posting a fic doesn't hesitate just because they might get a little negative feedback. I've read some pretty amazing stuff in the last few months on this site, stories that would translate well to the small or big screen.

So, be not afraid.

"We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural response from either patient."

Rob O.

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:27 AM

JETFLAIR

I typically only rate and comment on things I have enjoyed, so I tend to leave high ratings. If I didn't enjoy a story, it was usually because:

1: The subject matter was distasteful to me, I didn't like the pairings, or I personally disagreed with how the author had the characters behave. All my problems, not the author's, and therefore not deserving of a low rating.

2: The writing was terrible - poor spelling, grammar, characterizations, or story. A comment telling someone they can't write won't help them learn how to do it well, and it'll just make them feel horrible.

Feedback is really important to me, and I try to remember that when I read other author's fics, but I will freely admit I'm horrible about leaving feedback. Must start doing it more often!

I guess as an author, the high ratings and glowing praise that I've seen some short, poorly written fics makes it hard for me to figure out where mine stands, objectively. Do I get positive feedback and ratings because the story is good, or because people are nice?

The line between taking negative comments constructively and being hurt by them is a very thin one.

The small amount of constructive criticisim I've gotten has helped me a great deal.....without any indication of where I'm straying, annoying people, or wandering out of the believability zone, there is nothing keeping me on track.

But I'm also overly sensitive, and I have to work hard on not being hurt or feeling defensive, especially in the rare cases where I disagree with the negative comment.

These are all things I think about when I rate a fic and comment on it (I dont just rate without commenting). I usually will only post positive comments unless the author is very good and I see some aspect of the story where I think a nudge might be a good idea ("I liked this chapter a lot, but I'm not entirely certain Kaylee would punch Inara...").

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

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Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:27 PM

Yep, I’m digging this ancient thread up. I feel that it needs to be re-examined and I’ll tell you all why. Hopefully this might cause some things to change.

Right now, I’m really annoyed. Earlier today, I was perusing the BSR archives and came across a particular fic. The fic wasn’t *terrible*. It was entirely mediocre. This is nothing new and not surprising, because the author is young. Yet I wondered why in the world it (and all the rest of the author’s fics) had been rated 8s and 9s. I concluded that, because of this author’s tender age, people were cutting him some slack and trying to be nice and encouraging.

That’s fine, whatever, but as I began to read the feedback that was given and the replies that the author posted, it became quite clear to me that we (the collective “we”, as in Those Who Dwell in the Blue Sun Room) had created a Monster.

Yes, folks, a monster.

Like so many others, the writer begged and pleaded for feedback and when it was received, promptly dismissed it. I saw that pretty much the same couple of people had commented on all of his stories (These are the same folks who generally read everything that gets posted in the BSR and always leave glowing feedback, bless their hearts. Some of it is deserved, some of it - not so much - IMO).

One of these kind souls in particular had the nerve to actually post CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. *Gasp!* The author’s reply? Rude and immature. When I read it, my jaw literally dropped. I could not believe than an author, no matter how young, would be such an ungrateful little brat as to snark at one of the FEW people who had actually taken the time to read all of his mediocre work, give it high marks, and post feed-back!

So. I think it’s time we re-examine this whole rating issue/feedback thing. Be encouraging. Be polite. But please, PLEASE! stop blowing smoke up people’s behinds. It’s not helping them be better writers! Rewarding a writer with an undeserved score gives them nothing to strive for. And it just turns some of them into insufferable little gits.

Rant over. =) Feel free to discuss.

"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:33 PM

BTW, the Kindly Reviewer, even after being publicly slammed, continued to leave nice, constructive comments. Class. She's goin' to the Special Heaven.

"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Thursday, October 4, 2007 4:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EmpireX:
Like so many others, the writer begged and pleaded for feedback and when it was received, promptly dismissed it.

You're right, this seems to have happened quite a few times lately - beg for feedback, then get all insulted and have a tantrum over it. It's shocking, the disrepect some writers have for their readers.

I'm not sure how to deal with it - on one hand, the beauty of fic is that it doesn't have to be perfect. On the other hand, you're so right about how monsters get created. With some shining exceptions, it seems that few writers really improve over time. It's almost become the norm to defend one's mediocrity, to announce to readers that criticism is not welcome and things will never change.

I just don't get that. One of the more useful things I've learned from writing is how to take criticism. Really, some of these whiny writers would be going out to buy a shotgun if they got all the red ink that I've gotten from one of my betas, and I'll take the risk of saying that I invest more hours in my writing than most anyone here. (No one else is as crazy as me LOL!) But my beta held nothing back. Not easy to take, I tell you. Humble pie, shoved down my throat. But soooo good for my writing, and for me.

Being able to take criticism is useful in more places than the FF fic-verse. I'm guessing that some folks who go ballistic over their writing do it in real life too, and could use a lesson in chilling out. Might make them happier people.

My fantasy is that criticism would be given more often, like maybe readers would say something positive and something negative about every fic, no matter how good or bad it is. Then maybe writers would see criticism as a natural part of the process, and a compliment rather than an insult. Because it is, really.

Rant #2 over.

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Thursday, October 4, 2007 8:07 AM

double post

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Thursday, October 4, 2007 8:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
My fantasy is that criticism would be given more often, like maybe readers would say something positive and something negative about every fic, no matter how good or bad it is. Then maybe writers would see criticism as a natural part of the process, and a compliment rather than an insult. Because it is, really.

Rant #2 over.

Bumping this up and adding:

ITA. You know, when I recently posted my first two fics, I got very nice reviews. It was fun and ego boosting and everything, but only 2x2 (who commented on my LiveJournal page) actually gave some constructive criticism. She pointed out the exact place in my story that *I* knew I had struggled with - where it was weakest - and I really appreciated it.

So my stories were both rated 9s here. It's flattering, but are they deserving of 9s? Nope! (I didn't even have a slave-driving beta to whip me into shape, mores the pity

) I was hoping that someone besides 2x2 would take the time to point out the short comings. I could have used that for future efforts.

I think, more than anything, we as a group should focus on craft instead of are we reading our favorite pairing or "Aw, you tried really hard! Aren't you brave for posting in a public forum! Let's give you a gold star!" On the other hand, if a pairing doesn't appeal to you, don't read it. Don't be a jerk and rate it low because it might actually be decently-written. I think all ratings - high and low - should be justified with a comment.

"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Thursday, October 4, 2007 8:09 AM

WYTCHCROFT

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Friday, October 5, 2007 5:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EmpireX:
She pointed out the exact place in my story that *I* knew I had struggled with - where it was weakest - and I really appreciated it.

Absolutely! Having these things pointed out help me figure out my own opinions, let me know which of my own niggles to listen to and which to let go. I get sad when I post unpopular chapters and get little or no feedback. I want the criticism! I've had people admit that they didn't want to be negative, so held back. But that's exactly the stuff that I want to hear!

I have to say - there are writers who are very open to criticism, and this leads to fun places for me. Leiasky and jetflair, definitely. Jetflair got an armload of criticism on a chapter this summer, and replied to it by explaining her choices, which I found really illuminating. I wish that happened more often, rather than: "I write what I write so worship me or F*** off!" *sigh* That's just no fun.

Quote:
I think, more than anything, we as a group should focus on craft

Whoa - writing is a craft? Nuh-uh!

Quote:
Don't be a jerk and rate it low because it might actually be decently-written.

So very true! I second that!

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Friday, October 5, 2007 6:09 AM

bump, bump, bumpin' up

"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Friday, October 5, 2007 11:46 PM

JETFLAIR

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Jetflair got an armload of criticism on a chapter this summer, and replied to it by explaining her choices, which I found really illuminating. I wish that happened more often, rather than: "I write what I write so worship me or F*** off!" *sigh* That's just no fun.

I take that as a great compliment, since accepting criticism is not one of my best skills :D

That was a case of my being grateful that people were willing to express to me the problems they had with the chapter and why, rather than just being silent. Being silent doesn't tell the writer what you think they did wrong, it just tells them something *is* wrong. And in that case I was able to explain to some people the why of it. There is much more of that "why" yet to come in the story, by the way ;)

I think there is an establishing of trust that has to take place on the side of both the writer and the commenter before constructive criticism can work, and it's rare on this site that that happens.

The writer has to trust that the commenter isn't just being mean, and that the commenter has the skill and perspective to accurately poke the right holes in the story. I don't want someone who gets Mal and John McClane confused telling me how to write, and you don't want me commenting on the nuances of your beloved Mal/River slash.

The commenter has to trust that the writer won't be hurt by what they say, and that the writer even wants their advice in the first place.

I have had good and bad exchanges with people....some in particular have been very generous with their time in critiquing my writing, and have both improved my work and increased my confidence in telling a story. I am very grateful to those people.

I've had people appreciate advice I've given, but I've also hurt people, and that doesn't feel good. It really comes back to establishing trust.

I'm not sure that can take place in a comment box alone.

"Love keeps her in the air...."

www.serenityverse.com/fffanfic - My fanfics
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Saturday, October 6, 2007 4:39 AM

KATESFRIEND

When we were students first learning how to cobble together a thesis statement and make five paragraphs strung together a passionate argument for social change or a tragic love affair, we trusted the teacher. Here, there's no wise grammarian, and there certainly is an incredible age range and skill range. That makes it endlessly fascinating and creative, and also makes it art, not education. How can you rank art? How can you judge an artist? How can you really know what is going on in someone else's head? How can you put a numerical value on it?

If you are a professional author posting here, you know that the marketplace ultimately dictates your "ranking", or financial success or failure. The dispassionate bottom line - anonymous and final. Your talent shines through here regardless and rankings are high.

If you are a rank beginner - it usually shows - and people have usually been very kind. The ranking aren't as high, but the language of the comments is always more supportive - the effort IS appreciated.

Browncoats seem to be unusually supportive to each other - very helpful when you're the underdog. But if you want editorial skills and professional critique, you may not get them from readers who are grateful to read ANYTHING about Firefly.

I just love to read the stories and can appreciate the hard work of crafting them. If a story sucks, I won't ever comment. I spent 20 years grading essays to EVER want to do that for fun. If someone seriously wanted the truth from me they'd get it fully for the positive comments, subtle hints for the glaring errors, and never for the raunchy stuff. Remember, this is for fun, people. If you want an editor, be careful what you ask for - you may get it.

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Saturday, October 6, 2007 8:51 AM

PSANDUSKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Katesfriend:
When we were students first learning how to cobble together a thesis statement and make five paragraphs strung together a passionate argument for social change or a tragic love affair, we trusted the teacher. Here, there's no wise grammarian, and there certainly is an incredible age range and skill range. That makes it endlessly fascinating and creative, and also makes it art, not education. How can you rank art? How can you judge an artist? How can you really know what is going on in someone else's head? How can you put a numerical value on it?

I'll disagree on this point. The absence of a concrete stylistic/grammatical guide does not connote the idea of art to me, and I would judge ranges in age and ability as just that -- ranged age and ability, not a diagnostic criterion for art. In terms of education, I really can't say, because that's not entirely my province as a reader. For all I know, the posting author is simply sharing something he or she wrote as an exercise prompted by an academic requirement I'll never see. Writing a fic may be educational for one author and shirking study, so to speak, for someone else. I also don't see a polarity between education and art. Just because something is written in line with the rules of engagement an instructor set before a student doesn't mean the resulting text cannot be artistic; just because the writing is meant to be taken as an artistic venture doesn't mean it isn't a formulaic product. Art calls in yet more variables than that.

If something is indeed creatively done, I'd say it's well on its way to being art, but even creativity has its boundaries. I, with no training whatsoever in sculpture, can staple a six-pack ring to a scrap piece of fiberglass siding and leave the assemblage sitting in my front yard as a piece of artwork. It's creative, I'll say, and furthermore I'll maintain that it's a commentary on the woeful use of synthetics that are destroying our planet's ecosystems, and so on, so forth, on down the line. If my "artwork" does not evoke some thought or feeling in a viewer, or if my intentions are not at least in some small measure accessible to said viewer, then I've made a doorstop, never mind how much I rail about art-this and creative-that. I could just as easily get a doorstop by chopping a wood block along a diagonal, so why bother with the siding and six-pack ring? If my artwork didn't do its job communicating my ideas or sparking others, what good is it as art? Do I need an ego boost from the use of the word "art?"

Prose presented as fanfiction, never mind the fandom, comes with two incontrovertible standards by which it may be judged by anyone. Anyone who knows the language in which the fic is written and knows the universe in which the story is based can indeed go back and judge the quality of what someone has posted for reading, each to his own tastes and understanding. In terms of Firefly, does the fic fit the 'Verse in terms of available technology and locations? Do the characters fit their basic profiles that exist on film, or is there an unexplained discontinuity in how the characters interact? Is there a plot that opens, increases in conflict, and finds resolution in a manner that would suggest the author remembered what went before and had planned out the conclusion, or can a reader dimly hear Lamb Chop, Hush Puppy, et al. singing about how "this is the fic that never ends?" If I were to go back and ask the author what his intentions were, could I say that the fic presented what the author wanted to get across, or that I arrived at the same conclusions myself after I read? If intention and product don't line up exactly, is the latter at least close to the "stated" goal? If I think the intentions purposely aren't concrete, does the text contain enough of an ideological pattern that I can pick something up after I've read it, or do I come away thinking that I'd've found more depth reading from my phone book? Can I read the text at all, or do I need to take every line three times over to decipher the author's grammar or punctuation?

Granted, these "standards" of mine might well be up for disagreement among other readers, but if a fic comes up sweet FA on the majority of these, "art" is the last descriptor to come to my mind. Age and ability I'll treat as secondary and tertiary to the primary questions of what the author meant to do and whether he or she did so successfully or in approximation. I've no compunctions about putting a _numerical value_ on that. What's going on in the author's head means nothing to me, because I can't see what's in the author's head. I can, however, see what the author has put on the site for me to read, and if I know the language the author is using and the universe in which he or she placed the story, then I consider myself fully qualified to say that a fic is better or worse than another. Whether or not I'll append comments to that numerical rating depends on the situation. If I'm asked or told to do so, I will. If not, I'll give the number I feel appropriate and move on, but I will give a number.

I spent a few years judging and giving feedback on speeches given competitively, and what I came to find was that the notion of how courageous the speaker was to get up and talk about Barbie/Somnambulism/Drunk Driving/Abortion/Rainforests/whatever-the-hell became more important than the quality of the speaking or of the speechwriting itself, both of which were indeed included on the judging rubric. The words "courage" and "effort points" didn't figure anywhere into the equation, but the competitors outright expected, sometimes even demanded, to be given glowing marks overall for their valor, because some well-meaning soul told them that the courage of the act was paramount. I can't help myself from thinking that the same pattern is creeping up with fanfiction authors. Yes, they're courageous for putting their writing out there for all to see, but fanfic is still creative writing, and many of the readers, having seen imaginative composition before, will judge it as such, because they respect and value the imaginative forces that creative writing represents, whether the text comes from a fanfiction archive or from a literary magazine. Are posting, reading, and giving feedback supposed to be fun? Sure, unless you count the miserable epidemic of "Let's put these characters in high school and see what happens LoLz!!1!" and gushing thereon that's sweeping through so many fandoms. If you'll pardon an irrevocably trite phrase, fun can have standards, too. Does the fic's mere existence in a public forum qualify it as art, and therefore removed from adverse criticism in the face of the courage the author showed with its presentation? I'm sorry, but while others may disagree, I have to say no.

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ACHTUNG! ALLES LOOKENSPEEPERS!
Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und giffengrabben. Ist easy droppenpacket der routers und overloaden der backbone mit der spammen und der me-tooen. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das cursorblinken.

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Saturday, October 6, 2007 9:25 AM

Marry me.

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Saturday, October 6, 2007 10:44 AM

STINKINGROSE

I avoid leaving ratings, and prefer comments. I would say that mentally I tend to separate it into 6-8 (average to pretty darned good) and 9-10 (please send more). Anything less than that would be something that was.. below average. If you didn't even try to get the voices right, you were only writing to satisfy your personal fetish with no regard to plausibility, or you completely failed to run the gorram thing through spellcheck at the least I will count it against you. If I can find nothing nice to say I will say nothing. If there's something I like or want to offer encouragement I will. I would hope the reverse is also true.

If my stuff bites, please let me know so I can stop torturing you with it. If you like it, please tell me why. If you have gentle suggestions for improvement ("Get a f*cking beta, honey!") please leave them.

It helps. A lot.

I'm writing for my own entertainment, first and foremost, and because ideas crawl in and won't leave me alone until I put them down on paper, or whatever else they end up on. I then subject others to my whimsies out of sheer sadism and egocentricity. Or maybe just 'cause I want to share.
The ratings usually make me think "OK, that didn't totally suck, and maybe somebody really liked it", but beyond that I try not to take them or myself too seriously.

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Monday, October 8, 2007 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PSandusky:
In terms of Firefly, does the fic fit the 'Verse in terms of available technology and locations? Do the characters fit their basic profiles that exist on film, or is there an unexplained discontinuity in how the characters interact? Is there a plot that opens, increases in conflict, and finds resolution in a manner that would suggest the author remembered what went before and had planned out the conclusion, or can a reader dimly hear Lamb Chop, Hush Puppy, et al. singing about how "this is the fic that never ends?" If I were to go back and ask the author what his intentions were, could I say that the fic presented what the author wanted to get across, or that I arrived at the same conclusions myself after I read? If intention and product don't line up exactly, is the latter at least close to the "stated" goal? If I think the intentions purposely aren't concrete, does the text contain enough of an ideological pattern that I can pick something up after I've read it, or do I come away thinking that I'd've found more depth reading from my phone book? Can I read the text at all, or do I need to take every line three times over to decipher the author's grammar or punctuation?

...

.

...

pardon me, I'm just melting into a pool of vacant-eyed drooly gladness over this... Back off, empirex, this one's mine LOL!

Really, this makes me want to go write. It's all these issues of communication, of prose as a two-way street, a matter not only of creation but of perception so that the fiction exists apart from the writer... that just lights my fire. Who wouldn't want to face harsh criticism if it helps bring a story to life? To touch people the way Joss has touched us?

Quote:
Originally posted by Katesfriend:
How can you rank art? How can you judge an artist? How can you really know what is going on in someone else's head?

Hey - art is ranked on a daily basis. Like it or not, it's given dollar values and popularity values and ratings from reviewers and on and on. I'd even argue that it's necessary - with the piles of books published each year, most of us need help sorting through it. I'm not going to look over every book in the store!

As for what's going on in someone's head: that's the writer's job to make clear. The most beautifully imagined scene is useless if it's put onto paper poorly. The "education" of art is the framework that makes it possible to bring a vision to life; all those silly grammar rules aren't there so we can get a gold star from teacher. They are what makes it possible for readers to understand what we're telling them.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, October 8, 2007 12:04 PM

LEIASKY

No, I'm not back from my trip yet. I'm still in London for the next few days. I just have some free time and am going to respond to a post! :)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

It's almost become the norm to defend one's mediocrity, to announce to readers that criticism is not welcome and things will never change.

Silence speaks louder than words for me nowadays.

Quote:
Really, some of these whiny writers would be going out to buy a shotgun if they got all the red ink that I've gotten from one of my betas,

raises hand

She gives me a LOT of red ink too! :)

Quote:
and I'll take the risk of saying that I invest more hours in my writing than most anyone here. (No one else is as crazy as me LOL!)

I think no truer words have ever come out of your mouth. LOL!

Quote:
My fantasy is that criticism would be given more often, like maybe readers would say something positive and something negative about every fic, no matter how good or bad it is. Then maybe writers would see criticism as a natural part of the process, and a compliment rather than an insult. Because it is, really.

I started to do that. And I've tried to keep with it. It's difficult to write up a good critique if I'm just not emotionally invested in the story.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 8:01 AM

WYTCHCROFT

"Ere so 'ow d'you rate yours then Clive?" "it was f---ng 'orrible Derek."

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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 9:28 AM