River-Sue, Kaylee-Sue, Inara-Sue... A spin-off thread to the Mary-Sue one. by AgentRouka

BLUE SUN ROOM

River-Sue, Kaylee-Sue, Inara-Sue... A spin-off thread to the Mary-Sue one.

POSTED BY: AGENTROUKA
UPDATED: Sunday, May 20, 2007 07:00
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VIEWED: 6923
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Sunday, February 25, 2007 9:56 PM

As, I think, we've all painfully experienced, it's not just Original Characters (OC's) that can be too perfect, too tragic, too lovable, too rescue-able to be true.

And in particular Kaylee and River lend themselves to being a focus of self-insertion, carrying certain Mary-Sue traits already on the show: each being "gifted" in a way that had nothing to do with study and hard work, being lovely, being very young in an environment not usually suitable for someone that young, being universally beloved and protected, rarely if ever portrayed as being wrong about something, etc.

Kaylee and more rarely Inara tend to attract the rescue-fantasies, while River tends to become the focus of power fantasies.

At which point do you feel a character has ceased being in-character, and become an outlet for another person's self-insertion? Do you notice this with characters other than Kaylee and River? For example Zoe-Sue is something I have never seen.

Do character-Sues bother you as much as Mary-Sues? More, less? How sensitive are you to this phenomenon, that is, how soon do you feel that something is a Sue?

Thoughts?

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Monday, February 26, 2007 9:14 AM

LEIASKY

I don't think these bother me as much as blatant Mary-Sue's. Only because I can, and do, often just chalk it up to another's interpretation of how the character would/should act. I tend to be a stickler for characterization, and its only gotten worse the more I've written in this fandom, so if a character is behaving like I don't think they would, I just stop reading and don't go on.

I do think that Kaylee, Inara, River-Sue's tend to really come into play more when an author is writing a pairing with them, rather than in a story that isn't heavily pairing concentrated.

But then, I could say that about Jayne, Mal and Simon as well. Authors can take them really far out of believable character to put them with another female character, either established or OC and turn them into '- Sue's' as well.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, February 26, 2007 11:07 AM

NBZ

heh, this is something which probably cannot be avoided, but as long as it is within reason it can be ignored.

The only character that does not seem to suffer from this is Zoe. Probably because there are very few fics from her POV. It is difficult to get into her mindframe.

But I may aswell just rant. Much more interesting

There is the brave, heroic and noble captain who is stoic in the face of danger, but is utterly fearful for his crew.

Then there is the lovable Wash. Who would want to hurt him?

Kaylee is the bestest mechanic ever. She can teach those who built the things a few. Universally loved, but put her within ten planets of Simon and she will be the most hypersensitive person ever.

Then there is River. She is gifted/cursed depending on the situation, but it will always be in an endearing manner.

Yes you're probably thinking what is wrong with the above characterisation of Mal and Wash? apart from selling the short (and to a point be a mischaracterisation), some fics go around with every member of the crew thinking the same thing.

I can get the writer likes the character, but it can get a bit much when you are reading the sixth account of how lovable Wash is, and how he shiould not eb hurt the way the writer has written the hurt upon him.

According to alliance records, Mal is around 49 at the time of the BDM. 37 before the war started, but this is something I can ignore. I do not mind reading alternative versions where he was younger and I only found this out very recently.

Zoe is 16 years his junior, so her and Mal cannot have had a childhood together (another which I can ignore, as well, because). Mal is born 2468, Zoe in 2484. Book is only about 7-9 years older than Mal! Zoe is loyal, but not blind.

Mal is not 'heroic' and 'noble'. He just feels bad enough at times to do something good. And is fiercely protective over people he terms as 'his'.

Jayne just gets mischaracterised. He actually does like violence. He may not be book smart, but is a survivor. He is street smart. He will not turn fluffy. Ever. I can see how people want to imagine them changing him (soem romantic notions eh?), but it will not happen. He may get more sensitive. He may start to give more of a damn, but he will not get fluffy. (He is a slightly more dense version of Mal, but with alot less loyalty. or so he likes to think.)

River and Simon are probably Buddhist. Their parents are buddhist, so making them christian does not work too well.

With Inara it is once again mischaracterisation instead of Inara-sue. Since when will Mal roll over to her suggestion?

You shall not undermine his authority even if he is being pigheaded.

And to show the gravity of events, Mal, Jayne and Zoe will not get paralysed by fear.

/End Rant

I can now breathe...

Anyone agree? Disagree?

Anyone sharpening an axe I should be worried about?

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Monday, February 26, 2007 11:15 AM

AGENTROUKA

Not much time to reply now. Just one thing...

I'm 100% sure that the 2468 number as Mal's birth year is a typo that is *supposed* to be 2486. It simply makes no sense for Mal to be 49, but 31 or 32 does work and jives much better with his psychological development during the history given to us on the show.

Just about 19 when the war started, 25 when it ended, 32 now. Young enough to make his "mean old man" act a sad irony, old enough to have earned his "professional" standing among the creme de la criminal community.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 11:30 AM

NBZ

I considered that, but then it was mentioned one of the writers had a DOB of 20/09/1968, so I think it is less of an error that Mal was giver 20/09/2468.

It could be that the mighty alliance had a computer glitch, or a fake DOB, or as you mentioned just a typo.

2486 is closer to what I would have expected, and 2468 did give me a little shock, but it still fits.

Whedon did say that the average lefe expectancy in the 'verse is higher aswell. Closer to 120, so I do not think it was an accident. It just makes us question alot of 'certainties' we had in our minds.

Back on topic, one way to avoid this Sueness is somethign which Joss mentioned in one of his commentaries.

He described mal and then he said that this was someone whose thought process Joss would not agree with.

In otehr words, when oput in a situation, think what such a character would do instead of what you want them to do.

This is why I do not write. I have tried, but after writing a scene, I realise this is not how it would work. He/She/They would do tsomething different. Something I do not want them to do as the new actin does not fit and changes everything. so I am back to square one, not writing.

Gotta say those who do are brave and talented, as getting the characters right is hard. Much easier to pick something apart.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 11:39 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
I considered that, but then it was mentioned one of the writers had a DOB of 20/09/1968, so I think it is less of an error that Mal was giver 20/09/2468.

It could be that the mighty alliance had a computer glitch, or a fake DOB, or as you mentioned just a typo.

2486 is closer to what I would have expected, and 2468 did give me a little shock, but it still fits.

Whedon did say that the average lefe expectancy in the 'verse is higher aswell. Closer to 120, so I do not think it was an accident. It just makes us question alot of 'certainties' we had in our minds.

Actually, it's on the Core that life expectancy is up to 120, but I imagine on the Rim and Border planets it's a lot closer to what we have now, if not even less in places. Just like third world countries have a lower life expectancy than rich, well-regulated ones with widely available medical care.

Plus, living longer does not necessarily mean that we stay young longer, as well. We have a whole lot more "old age" (80, 90, 100) these days than we used to have, and gained much less youth in comparison. Mal just doesn't look even remotely 50.

Mal being 49.. it just utterly doesn't work in my head. This would mean he was 38 when the war started, and must have had an actual life back home, aside from being young and working on his Ma's ranch. A family of his own, for one. It just seems really unlikely that he would have been the careless, nearly cheerful and physically super-fit soldier we saw in the flashbacks if he'd been 40 during the war and lost a family of his own. He's not played that way on the show.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 11:50 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I don't think it's always a Mary-Sue thing entirely. Sometimes it's just writers carrying over their own "politics" into the characters. If there's something you like about Kaylee or River, especially something you wish you could be, then you tend to inflate that side of them, and sometimes things get distorted.

Of course sometimes you get people rewriting "their" character so that they're almost unrecognisable. I saw this a lot in Buffy fanfic, especially regarding Spike. For non-Buffy fans, in season six Buffy and Spike were in a relationship and Buffy didn't treat Spike especially well. Because of this you got a lot of fans who were desperately in love with Spike and hated Buffy for being so mean to him. It made for some pretty weird fic.

The worst example that springs to mind was an AU (Alternative Universe) fic that had Buffy married to Riley. He was abusive and beat her regularly until Spike showed up to rescue her.

No, I'm not kidding. Someone actually wrote a fic with battered-wife-Buffy being rescued by saintly Spike from evil Riley. And it *wasn't* a joke. It's one of the few fics I literally couldn't finish.

Obviously that example is pretty extreme, but you do get a lot of issues with characters acting out of character when people have their own axe to grind. If people are desperate to see Kaylee and Jayne together for example, sometimes they make Simon far too whiney and selfish. I mean, come on! The guy gave up everything for his sister! I have a *very* hard time believing he'd be ashamed of Kaylee's lack of genteel manners if they visited his family.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 11:55 AM

NBZ

Maybe he had a deathwish? Maybe he was cheerful because he did not expect to survive?

I for one would find ti unnerving fighting alongside someone who was so cheery as he is shown in the flashbacks.

I am not expecting people to buy he is 49. It is pretty difficult, but it does ask dificult questions.

First two lines of the Ballad of Serenity are "Take my love, Take my land", so it is not entirely impossible that he had a family of his own. Just improbable.

It could all have just been a mid life crisis.

Shadow, while a farm world, I expect it to have been relatively prosperous. It, Persephone and Hera were the backbone of the independents, so it must have had something to keep a war going for around 5 years.

Question is when was Shadow destroyed? If it was early on, then it is entirely plausable. If it was at the end, then less so.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 12:06 PM

AGENTROUKA

Of course, nothing is impossible.

I just maintain that it's unlikely to the point of absurdity that Mal is actually that old.

Mainly, because the ultimate loss of the war and the way it wiped away all his sacrifices, that's the thing that really broke Mal's spirit. If he had truly, fundamentally lost something he had built for himself to the war, if he had a death wish rather than actual optimism, then the thing about losing his faith wouldn't have been played in this way. He would have gone dark before that.

We know what Mal is like when he's lost. After the Valley, after Book's death... he's closed-off, harsh and viciously efficient. Nothing like Mal's flashbacks.

Unless he had decided that this kind of loss would have been worth the sacrifice in order to win and, again, that's not how we see him deal with loss in the show and movie. Or whatever he had build for himself before wouldn't have meant much to him, which is also unlikely because Mal forms very deep attachments.

Psychologically, it doesn't make much sense. Physically, neither. Plus, it makes Mal/Inara and Mal/Nandi and Mal/Saffron and all those other pairings really, really, really icky because he could be their father and would likely feel that way rather than the equal-to-equal attraction he does feel.

ETA: Sorry for being overly insistent. It's just something I feel very strongly about because the alternative seems so very very very wrong to me.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 12:28 PM

NBZ

That is ok. Only reason I brought it up was because well noone goes down that road.

I like the road less travelled. (Heard the one where Book is a Companion? It isa pretty disturbing notion, but I like it. Just noone has picked it up for fan fiction. I tried but failed in writing anything.)

Inara the character I would put at mid 30's (you should read my conspiracy on her!), not the same age as morena.

Nandi as older (not got any conspiracies aboput her). Saffron as younger (or her), but then again he did have issues with Saffron until she drugged him.

We don't actually know what he was like after the valley. Apart from the slight suggestion of permanent incarceration and torture we know nothing.

I would expect what happened later to be a big thing in the shaping of the characters. he would have to learn his humanity again after release. (This is conjecture based on Rivers' words in Safe "they forgot how to be..." combined with "Take me out to the black. Tell them I'm not coming back" and soem place where it mentions they were gonna be tried for war crimes.)

After Book, yes we know, but then again that is immediate after effects. What about after Wash? At the end of the BDM he is pretty happy.

This is why it would have been brilliant if the series had continued for even one episode. I would like to see how the death of Tracey would have hit him and Zoe.

I would suspect a much harder hit on Zoe than on Mal if we take the hints from the episode. Mal let's Zoe take the lead in The Message right until they almost get blown up, as if it is more important to her.

I like the idea of him being old because no one else does. It also questions what I have concieved before I found out. It makes me challenge my own assumptions.

Even if he is old, he would not have had kids. he calls Kaylee Meimei, not some mandarin for daughter.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 12:36 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

You know, I never thought about Mal and Zoe (or others) being tortured after the war, but when I think about it, it has been hinted at.

There's the Alliance guy in Bushwhacked who thinks Mal mutilated the survivor from the ship and says "I haven't seen that kind of torture since... well, since the war."

There's also the way Mal knew how to withstand torture during 'War Stories' - to the point that he could help Wash through it. And Zoe knew he could survive and that Niska would draw the torture out as long as he could. I know you could guess some of that or learn it second hand, but still.

*sigh* I'm gonna have to watch the whole series again...

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Monday, February 26, 2007 12:42 PM

NBZ

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
You know, I never thought about Mal and Zoe (or others) being tortured after the war, but when I think about it, it has been hinted at.

...

*sigh* I'm gonna have to watch the whole series again...

Any excuse is good enough.

Believe it or not, I went right past the big stuff you mentioned which pointed at torture and went for the small. A saying by River I did not understand (the normal explanation did not fit, as why would Mal understand and not Jayne?).

Just think of a conspiracy theory. Any one. You do not have to buy it at all. Then watch the whole series (and the Movie) again to find corroborating evidence.

On stillflying.net (Virtual Firefly. they do scripts for firefly) I have a shedload of topics with varying conspiracy theories in them.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 12:44 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Ooh ooh! Here's a good one!

Book's secret is...

...

...

...that he's really a COMPANION!!!

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Monday, February 26, 2007 1:00 PM

NBZ

You're getting the hang of it. (It does fit the data aswell - You just have to look at certain events from a different (soem say forced) perspective)

Apologies to the OP for taking this whole thing off topic.

That is my one true skill. going off on a tangent.

To put this slightyl back on topic, I will say Mal is pretty easy to go "Mal sue" over.

It is easy to take his strengths too far. We ahve to remember his strengths are also his weaknesses.

I would put stubbornness as both is number one strength and his number one weakness.

With Kaylee, both are young, so a certain type of writer (a young female one) could probably put themselves in their places. At times this is obvious, at others not so.

However there will always, always be a degree of interpretation of the characters.

This interpretation can lead to diferent takes on the same character.

As an example if there is a second war, I can see (for example) Kaylee/Jayne/Simon/Zoe going to do their bit more than I can see Mal joining in. (since he is leader of the pack, they won't)

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Monday, February 26, 2007 4:51 PM

PLATONIST

Whoever prepared the computer doc pages, in the deleted scenes, can't add correctly (Mal's age), but is also a poor speller. Malcolm is spelled "Malcom" in two different places. (teacher always on watch, here)

On page fourteen of the Visual Companion, Joss describes Malcolm as a "kid living on his mother's ranch when he joined up" out of belief alone. Reading this, I've never gotten the image of a grown mature man, with a wife and children, defending their homestead.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 10:26 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
That is ok. Only reason I brought it up was because well noone goes down that road.

For a reason... ;) Just kidding!

Quote:
I like the road less travelled. (Heard the one where Book is a Companion? It isa pretty disturbing notion, but I like it. Just noone has picked it up for fan fiction. I tried but failed in writing anything.)

The thing about the overly outlandish theories for me is when they contradict established characterisation, or undermine the strength or origin of certain characters traits. There's being adventurous and there's taking away a character I have an emotional attachment to and replacing it with essentially a quite different version for the sake of Sensation!

So.. I like the unusual, too, but only to a certain point.

Mal being 20 years older than presumed, for example, would kill quite a lot of the qualities about him that I like. For example, his very strongly paternal streak and his natural authority would lose quite a bit of their impact if he was at an age where those things are a LOT more expected.

Similarly, if he already had "another life" in his past, it would put into a very different take on the way he values the life he now built for himself, and the way he expresses feelings about the things he is/was attached to and has lost.

It would completely change the character that was built on the nuances we have seen on the show, and that idea sincerely disappoints me because the "new" version is not even remotely as compelling to me.

Quote:
Inara the character I would put at mid 30's (you should read my conspiracy on her!), not the same age as morena.

I have her at 27, but that's not too far apart. :) Young enough to have some idealism left, old enough to be wise.

Quote:
Nandi as older (not got any conspiracies aboput her). Saffron as younger (or her), but then again he did have issues with Saffron until she drugged him.

One more reason to love Mal. He's almost physically incapable of taking up with someone he doesn't consider his equal. *g*

Quote:
We don't actually know what he was like after the valley. Apart from the slight suggestion of permanent incarceration and torture we know nothing.

I would expect what happened later to be a big thing in the shaping of the characters. he would have to learn his humanity again after release. (This is conjecture based on Rivers' words in Safe "they forgot how to be..." combined with "Take me out to the black. Tell them I'm not coming back" and soem place where it mentions they were gonna be tried for war crimes.)

The only issue I take with that is that Mal bought Serenity (and with quite a new rush of optimistic enthusiasm, too) about a year after Serenity Valley. One and a half tops, because he couldn't have built his "reputation" and his crew in less than, say, four years or more. He may not have worked a train before "The Train Job" but he's pretty settled into the interplanetary life of crime.

If incarceration and all the related trauma (Where does it suggest that there was torture after the war, rather than during?) were more influential then the loss of the War itself, then the relearning how to live would have started pretty quickly after release, which kind of takes away from the impact of the trauma.

Quote:
After Book, yes we know, but then again that is immediate after effects. What about after Wash? At the end of the BDM he is pretty happy.

By then they were all soldiers. Book was a "civilian" victim taken from Mal when he was just trying to run. Wash's death takes place in the middle of a battle after they all agreed to give "more than before, maybe all." I think that's a big distinction.

Quote:
This is why it would have been brilliant if the series had continued for even one episode. I would like to see how the death of Tracey would have hit him and Zoe.

I would suspect a much harder hit on Zoe than on Mal if we take the hints from the episode. Mal let's Zoe take the lead in The Message right until they almost get blown up, as if it is more important to her.

I don't quite see it that way. Zoe tends to take care of the "little business" that doesn't really require decision-making, especially in situations that are emotionally trying for her and Mal, simply because Mal clams up.
She's not taking the lead, she's just saying out loud the stuff they both agree upon. Her level of vehemence suggests her emotional involvement but not one that's above Mal's.

Tracey's death, for example, is much more heavily focused on Mal's connection to him, and I don't think this would have been the case if the attachment between Tracey and Zoe took precedence in Mal's mind.

I agree, though, that the long-term impact on Zoe would probably have been higher because she is the one who most ambigiously moved on more and less than Mal did. More because she is married and ostentatiously happy and settled in the present, less because unlike Mal, she never tried to build a life of her own, just integrated a new aspect (Wash) without really letting his background and desires count for much when compared to hers.

Quote:
Even if he is old, he would not have had kids. he calls Kaylee Meimei, not some mandarin for daughter.

Which, again, contradicts his obvious paternal streak in the show and would further move the previously presented Mal away to an entirely new character because of the question "why not?"

Errr. Yeah, the tangents thing is sure fun... *G*

Btw, everyone, I've really been enjoying your responses to the actual subject of this thread!

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:41 AM

NBZ

Well I am dropping the Mal is almost 50 idea for now. Because of what the visual companion purpotedly says.

Apart from that I would say that it is harder to rebuild up when older.

To me it would be just as impressive.

Overly outlandish theories do not always contradict established characterisation. They will contradict extablished fanfic characterisation, but not canon - If they contradict canon and cannot be explained, I do not buy into them. As an example Rayne.

People can write it, but please have a warning as I will not read it. It has no basis in canon. no scenes can be twisted or forced to fit. There is not even any tension between the characters which can be worked on. he see's her as a liability and is a little scared, but he does not hate her. Otherwise he would not have talked or been friendly to them in "Trash".

Mal does clam up, but with the Tracey issue, Zoe tells Book to back off, and also confronts Jayne in the infirmary with Mal present. Normally Mal confronts jayne. It is almost a set way thing work. Jayne says something. Mal calls him on it. A few eye stares, then Jayne backs down. Not here.

The death bit focussed on Mal because, well, he killed a 'friend'. Zoe shot tracey when her husband was in danger but it was not fatal. Also putting Wash in danger may have changed Zoe's mind. (conjecture obviously)

I love your insight into Zoe though. She is a tough nut to crack and any insight is helpful.

I would also put the purchase of Serenity around 1 and a half years after the war.

I would say they were locked up from a few months to 1 year long. Maybe different amounts of time.

This is where I thought River's words applied. Paraphrasing: "They forgot to be cows. When they saw the sky or smelled the wind or whatever they remembered what they were."

In other words once he hit land, he bottled everything up and started to move on. Was done with the past.

And what torture during the war? they surrendered near the end. For all intents and purposes when they got rounded up, the war was over. Just a few loose ends to tie up for the alliance. Yes, living in Serenity Valley was torture in itself, but to my mind that is not enough.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 5:32 AM

AGENTROUKA

I'm not saying the rebuilding aspect would be less impressive. But other aspects of Mal's personality would lose their unique quality that makes them particularly fascinating. To me, anyways.

Rebuilding is impressive at any stage in life, indeed.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Overly outlandish theories do not always contradict established characterisation. They will contradict extablished fanfic characterisation, but not canon -

Well, if Joss suddenly said Mal had sadistic sexual urges (for example) or actually hated strong women, I would very much find that it contradicts canon as we've seen it. It COULD be turned into depth and background and whatever but there's only so much you can stretch before the new piece of information completely turns the character you thought you enjoyed into someone completely else, essentially, a new character.

Because all of their actions would have to be re-evalued in the light of that new piece of information.

From a certain point on, that's not intelligent and twisty writing anymore, it's destroying the emotional attachment of the viewers. So... even canon has only so much range, and it's completely independent from whatever range fannon has.

Quote:
Mal does clam up, but with the Tracey issue, Zoe tells Book to back off, and also confronts Jayne in the infirmary with Mal present. Normally Mal confronts jayne. It is almost a set way thing work. Jayne says something. Mal calls him on it. A few eye stares, then Jayne backs down. Not here.

Zoe has reigned in Jayne in other situations, too. "Jayne, you'll scare the women" in Bushwhacked, for example. It's not solely Mal's territory and if Mal has to put down Jayne more often, it's actually because Jayne is more likely to get uppity with Mal than with Zoe.

Besides, these example are still just cases of Zoe doing the "little work" and I think they have more to do with Zoe being the first to say them (as usual) than with Mal "letting her" say them simply because they aren't grand gestures. For all that her refusal to let Book help has symbolic meaning, it's also just a very situational exchange.

She voices no opinion on what they should do with Tracey's corpse, for example. Just follows Mal's cue. If she had more investment than Mal, whether he knew or not, she'd say something.

Quote:
The death bit focussed on Mal because, well, he killed a 'friend'. Zoe shot tracey when her husband was in danger but it was not fatal. Also putting Wash in danger may have changed Zoe's mind. (conjecture obviously)

Both, at any point, could have simply told Tracey about the plan. neither did, even though both faced him in critical situations with Wash and Kaylee, so I say they both, in equal amounts, killed a friend and an enemy alike.

Quote:
I love your insight into Zoe though. She is a tough nut to crack and any insight is helpful.

Oh, thank you. I'm glad you find it helpful. :)

Quote:
This is where I thought River's words applied. Paraphrasing: "They forgot to be cows. When they saw the sky or smelled the wind or whatever they remembered what they were."

In other words once he hit land, he bottled everything up and started to move on. Was done with the past.

I'd say it applies to River just as much, if not more so than Mal. It's one possibility of applying the quote but.. not the only one. :)

Quote:
And what torture during the war? they surrendered near the end. For all intents and purposes when they got rounded up, the war was over. Just a few loose ends to tie up for the alliance. Yes, living in Serenity Valley was torture in itself, but to my mind that is not enough.

Well, there is no canon evidence that Mal or Zoe were ever tortured, but there is canon evidence that torture did take place during the war, by the words of the Captain of the "Dortmunder" in Bushwhacked.

So why do you assume they were tortured at all? I'm not saying they were not, but it's not a fact you can base a theory on, only a theory, as well.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:17 AM

NBZ

Re: torture, I just ran through the various possibilities and think it is the most likely scenario.

This is actually where I defer for Mal and Zoe.

Mal being a 'superior officer' possibly had intel useful in the mop up operation. Zoe would have got off lighter.

With that Safe quote, yes it applies to River. It also applies to the cows. But why does Mal understand it and not Jayne?

The only two possibilities I can think fo that 'fit' are because Mal was a rancher and Jayne wasn't, so Mal knows animals, or that he was tortured during/after the war. It's not canon,. but I see it as a best fit for my understanding. (I do not agree with the 'Jayne is stupid' sentiment.)

Over the Tracey issue we will have to agree to disagree, as to me that is pretty obvious.

Even after he shoots Tracey, he looks down to Zoe to gauge her reaction.

It is Zoe who argues with her husband that he is not diseased while Mal just stands there.

When it comes to the ship, It's Mal's call. It's his ship. Remember that Kaylee is not happy with them even searching his pockets.

In the shooting script on TwizTV (which is NOT canon), they tried to explain before Tracey shot at Wash, but it does not work. He has already panicked.

I am not suggesting any type of physical relationship between the two, or even a chance at one. strictly platonic. In the war scenes she saw him as a kid. he saw her as a hard ass who even the sarge was a little scared of.

Reactions wise, you will notice that in OoG, only Zoe, Mal and Jayne react to the bigger picture. Even Book gets sidetracked when Zoe is taken out.

Also in the BDM, when Book dies, Mal has a few things to reevaluate. running is not working. His new solution is not agreed upon by the cerw until he pulls rank. and offers to shoot them naturally.

When Wash dies, instead of being in shock,Mal looks for the danger and then saves Zoe. (Zoe's shock is understandable.)

Mal's clam ups are more personal emotional reactions, and putting them into words. I think that is what you suggested, but I thought best to clarify it.

PS If Joss did say that ever in a not tongue in cheek manner, we would have to consider it,after he designed the original character. Our semi romanticised versions are what we interpret from what we see and not always accurate.

Ofcourse there would be a few people sharpening their pickaxes if he did say that...

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:38 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Re: torture, I just ran through the various possibilities and think it is the most likely scenario.

This is actually where I defer for Mal and Zoe.

Mal being a 'superior officer' possibly had intel useful in the mop up operation. Zoe would have got off lighter.

But Mal was a small seagent, really. What he knew and did, he made up after he got into the Valley, because - as Zoe says in the deleted scene - so many officers died that Mal just sort of ended up commanding 5000 as opposed to 30-something men and women. Not to mention, considering the Independents surrendered and they had negotiations as to the exact nature of the conditions... I don't think they would have needed much extra intel on how to mop things up. That's overplaying Mal's importance in the big picture.

I'm still not saying there may not have been torture, but I don't think it would have been the strategic, systematic, sanctioned kind, but rather done by vengeful individuals and tolerated by the immediate internment facility authorities. Nothing more complex.

Quote:
With that Safe quote, yes it applies to River. It also applies to the cows. But why does Mal understand it and not Jayne?

But who says Jayne doesn't understand, intellectually, what she's saying? Maybe he just doesn't care? Mal asks "Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?" which does neither leave Jayne any time to comment, nor does it imply one way or the other whether he understands. He simply doesn't give a reaction.

Quote:
Over the Tracey issue we will have to agree to disagree, as to me that is pretty obvious.

Probably the best course of action. :) It's not something that means overtly much to be, either way, but I just don't see Zoe's reaction in as much emphasis as you do. Oh well. :)

Quote:

Also in the BDM, when Book dies, Mal has a few things to reevaluate. running is not working. His new solution is not agreed upon by the cerw until he pulls rank. and offers to shoot them naturally.

That's not the agreement I mean. I'm talking about his "I aim to misbehave" speech. That's when each and everyone of them wordlessly and actually agree to his "asking more, maybe all". Before, he's threatening and ordering, just as you say, but not then, and this is why Wash's death hits him differently than Book's.

Quote:

When Wash dies, instead of being in shock,Mal looks for the danger and then saves Zoe. (Zoe's shock is understandable.)

Because at that point, Wash has turned into another one of Mal's soldiers, justlike in the war. He's used to commanding men and seeing them die. It's different with friends, but by the time they reach that junction, they've formed a little army of their own.

Plus, Wash quite simply doesn't mean as much to Mal as Book did, on a personal level. He means a lot to Zoe but Mal isn't hit in the same way. He'd have reacted differently if it had been Kaylee or Inara.

Quote:

Mal's clam ups are more personal emotional reactions, and putting them into words. I think that is what you suggested, but I thought best to clarify it.

Yes, we can obviously agree on that. :)

Quote:
PS If Joss did say that ever in a not tongue in cheek manner, we would have to consider it,after he designed the original character. Our semi romanticised versions are what we interpret from what we see and not always accurate.

I don't think I would have to consider it. Because it would contradict my slowly developed understanding of the character in a way that would render me unable to reconnect and.. I'd probably quite simply abandon the show then, or at least watch it with disappointment.

I hold my tv to a certain standard and I don't subscribe to the "Joss is God" club. If it jerks me around unreasonably, I'll abandon something and perhaps keep my enjoyment confined to the parts of canon that I could still accept.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:59 AM

NBZ

Quote:
I hold my tv to a certain standard and I don't subscribe to the "Joss is God" club. If it jerks me around unreasonably, I'll abandon something and perhaps keep my enjoyment confined to the parts of canon that I could still accept.

As do I. The only other show I really watch is "House".

If I did not agree, I would also abandon it, but that does not mean my opinion is worth much.

It is the very same reason why I do not comment on OC's unless they are really good. Someone put in time and effort to create them and I have no right to go in and sully the whole thing.

There is an ongoing fanwork which i do not read for this very reason. The story intrigues me, but the OC does not. It spoils it and is a mary Sue. I tried overcming it, but I failed. but this does not give me the right to jump on the writer.

In the same way If say joss decided to take the characters in a direction I do not agree with, I would abandon the work rather than 'fight' it. (which to eb honest wa won't eb able to. And we will be too happy to see Firefly continue than anything else.)

Everyone has a right to ruin their work. I do not hold Joss on a pedestal.

I am of the opinion that if he was given enough time, he would have ruined it. There are simplifications in the BDM. he had to do them for a new audience, but they do detract from the series.

Joss has certain stories he wants to tell, certain character traits he want to explore, but I do not want Firefly to be another Buffy or another Angel.

I found Firefly to be pretty unique and want it to remain so.

But since it is his work, he has every right to do whatever he wants. Even if I disagree and sharpen pickaxes, learn to track adn hunt him down for them :)

I give the same courtesy to the writers on here.

Gotta say looking at this post it does look pretty hypocritical of me.

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Wednesday, February 28, 2007 12:35 PM

EMPIREX

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
In the same way If say joss decided to take the characters in a direction I do not agree with, I would abandon the work rather than 'fight' it.

Everyone has a right to ruin their work. I do not hold Joss on a pedestal.

I am of the opinion that if he was given enough time, he would have ruined it.

Fascinating thread, you guys.

When you said Joss would've ended up ruining the show, I kind of laughed, because I've seen it happen before. The X-Files, for example. Chris Carter and Co. created a mythology so ingeniously convoluted with a group of geriatric government men as the conspiring villains. But around season six, it appears they just didn't know where to go next. They were crushed by their own mythology, ended up killing off the fantastic evil consortium, and replaced them with some lame-ass super-soldier alien-hybrids (no offense to Adam Baldwin - he was great). Not to mention, they committed acts of character-assassination, turning Agent Scully into a witless damsel-in-distress simply so Agent John Dogget (Duchovny's replacement) could rescue her - thus endearing himself to the audience. Yeah. We didn't fall for that.

Some people complain about the last 2 seasons of Buffy (the whole Buffy/Spike thing), and I do see their point. Same thing with Angel. Especially Angel, IMO. I mean, watch some of the first episodes and then watch some of last. It's a very different show. I personally don't think it was worse, just different. But the whole Cordelia/Connor thing was just wrong. And then her suddenly not being on the show and then dying...

What causes this? Why do writers/creators sometimes take main characters and make them do... out-of-character things? I would think, having written such an awesome characters, they would object to "sullying" them. It's puzzling. If you can't think of new things to do with your characters without committing character assassination, isn't it time to take a bow and say goodnight?

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Monday, March 5, 2007 2:23 AM

SPACEANJL

I'm with the above here. I've stopped watching more than one show (X-files included) for the very reasons above. I think we, the viewers/readers, get very emotionally invested in characters, and if our view of them is disturbed, then we have to either change, or stick our fingers in our ears, close our eyes and refuse to play any more.

Or, if we are creatively inclined, we inflict our view of the 'Verse on the BSR.

I've made peace with my own view of the characters, the 'verse and their subsequent developement. And I don't normally join too many discussions, because I am, if not exactly a canon purist (OC writer, sorry) a writer who uses the original source material for reference and inspiration.

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Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:33 PM

JETFLAIR

Quote:

Obviously that example is pretty extreme, but you do get a lot of issues with characters acting out of character when people have their own axe to grind. If people are desperate to see Kaylee and Jayne together for example, sometimes they make Simon far too whiney and selfish. I mean, come on! The guy gave up everything for his sister!

This is probably my biggest fanfic gripe......the complete changing of a character to fit a storyline or, most often, a pairing.

I am a huge, personally biased Mal fan, and I constantly fight writing him as sweeter and more noble than he really is. I have to always remind myself of the fact that it's the full blend of his flaws and good qualities that make him the character I love in the first place. But I care about keeping him in character, and I *try* to include the many facets of his personality.

With that out of the way - sins and casting of stones and all.....

I *hate* the sweetification of Jayne. When someone wants to pair him with Kaylee or River or anyone seen as sweet and innocent, all of a sudden Jayne is a noble, thoughtful, sensitive, and selfless guy.

Simon as the whimp, the cold automoton, the homosexual or any number of gross exagerations of his personality......in fact I'd go so far as to say his character is the most badly and most often twisted by writers. He's a loving, brave, and intelligent man.

Yet because he's a bit cooler and more formal than the others.....is it really that easy a leap to sadomasochistic sex with Mal? Come on people.......

Kaylee as the complete whimp without a brain to stand on, Inara as the person who only exists to fight for no good reason with Mal, Zoe the cold, hard, kick-ass only girl........the list goes on. Sigh.

I appreciate it so much when people write and build on the characters as they were actually presented in the show, and not turned upside down to fulfil the writer's fantasies.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

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Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:59 PM

JETFLAIR

Quote:

We don't actually know what he was like after the valley. Apart from the slight suggestion of permanent incarceration and torture we know nothing.

I would expect what happened later to be a big thing in the shaping of the characters. he would have to learn his humanity again after release. (This is conjecture based on Rivers' words in Safe "they forgot how to be..." combined with "Take me out to the black. Tell them I'm not coming back" and soem place where it mentions they were gonna be tried for war crimes.)

You know I gotta chip in on this ;)

I agree with you, but I'm picking up a few other hints as well. We see Mal completely devastated at the end of the war. I do see him as having been through some pretty horrible things at the hands of the Alliance after that (see: The Losing Side ;) ).

But it's also interesting to watch him in Bushwacked, with the Alliance commander. He acts like he has a certain amount of expectation that he and his crew will be listened to and dealt with somewhat fairly. He's calm and expects Harkin?? to listen to reason.

When we see Mal in the Out of Gas flashback buying Serenity, he's cheerful, healthy, optimistic, and young-looking. He doesn't look or act like a man recently emerged from some hellish prison camp, or even the devastated man from the end of the war.

Something healed Mal to a great extent before that sequence. Yes, I think Mal was imprisoned and I think along the way he learned to cope with torture. I think he had to regain his humanity not just after he was released, though. I think, given how apparently soon he was "Mal" in the OOG flashback, the process had to have started while he was in the prison.

That's one reason my personal theory is that the Alliance didn't treat them altogether horribly. I think the process of healing from the aftermath of the war had to have started pretty early on.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 2:39 AM

NBZ

yeah well, I don't think I am athe most preceptive person in the world.

Notice how I went straight to a vague reference about something river said and never even considered Bushwacked?

About OoG and the sale of Serenity, I see it a little different. He was also not wearing a browncoat when talking to the salesman, but a civvie jacket (which he also wore in The Train Job). There was some acting to get the ship. (you know... the most sincere fake smile ever he gives Badger in Serenity?)

Not exactly sure what my point is though, as I have been reading The Losing Side and enjoying it immensely. It's nice to see the Alliance not shown as "Evil", but real people that have some differing views and he fought a bloody war with.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:00 AM

MAL4PREZ

Hey Jetflair!

I have to make a little note, just because this is so relevant to my own fic-verse...

Mal is indeed quite cheerful in the scene where he shows Serenity to Zoe for the first time, but I'm not so ready to take that to define his entire emotional state. In that moment, he's with Zoe, starting a new life, and has enough money to buy a ship, so things must be going pretty well for him lately. But that doesn't mean that he's cheery and optimistic through and through. Everyone has good days, even really messed up depressed people! And really, Mal shows in the series that he carries his wounds pretty deep, and can appear goofy even when he's far from it (Niska torture is the obvious example!)

So, my take is that he isn't all healed in that OoG flashback. I believe this because he isn't all healed at any point in the series - any interview with Nathan or Joss will back that up. (What's Nathan say about Mal being hollow and empty inside...?) And Joss wanted to make him even darker than the Mal we saw. He had to lighten him up to please Fox.

Part of what fascinates me about Mal is that he's found a way to set aside the broken part of himself so he can exist, and even have fun with things now and then. But I wouldn't call him optimistic. Not down in the core of him. The last line of the pilot episode, the last line of the comics... Mal's pretty much existing day to day, without much thought for the future, and his ship and crew are a big help with that. But I do believe he's a broken man, and stays that way until the events of the movie give him something to believe in. (Although that comes at great cost. Joss is sooo evil! LOL!)

I do agree re Harkin. Mal knows that not all individuals in the Alliance are evil, something you present extremely well in The Losing Side. Like you, I believe that Mal's treatment by the Alliance wasn't all awful, horrendous torture. I find that fics that go there are unrealistic, making the Alliance into flatly evil bad guys just to crank up the Mal angst. Angst is fun and all, but it shouldn't come at the cost of making Joss's gray-toned `verse black and white.

Good lord, see what my short little notes become? I'll stop now, before I tangent again!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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