Dead Air/Other Fic Comms/Reviews by biggrstaffbunch

I find that I get a *whole* lot less feedback on LJ. As you say BGSB, the audience on LJ is different. I've noticed that the feedback goes on and on for non-canon smut, (and the smuttier the better!) but regular dramatic/adventurous fic isn't so popular.

On the plus side, the feedback I do get on LJ is often quite interesting, and because of the way the comments are handled on the page it's easy to have ongoing discussions. That's nice because I feel like I've gotten to know a few of my readers. I'm trying to do that here, to respond to feedback on FFF. It's a little awkward, but worth it.

Another thing I'll throw in - it bugs me that I have no idea how many people see my posts on LJ. There's no counter like there is here. People friend me (to get my posts to show on their friends page, I assume) and then lots of comments show for the last chapter in a given series, so I know I do have readers. Some at least LOL! But I do wish I had a better handle on how many people are reading, so I'd know if it's worth the bother to post two places.

BTW, is it horribly rude that LJ people friend me and I don't friend them back? I really don't know the politeness rules... But people friend me without leaving any comments, and I have no idea who they are or anything, so I'm not sure what to about it. Uh... other than nothing.

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Friday, June 22, 2007 6:35 AM

I've noticed about the lack of feedback! For awhile, I was in wonder as to how you didnt get pages and pages of commentary. Your fic in another fandom (well, the novel-like length and the sheer inventiveness and amazingness of it) would make you a BNF (big name fan) RIGHT away in Buffy fandom or HP fandom. I myself will try and leave feedback for every chapter, because I def do read!

Its not rude at all not to friend back--if they dont leave a note telling you who they are, it's sort of weird, right? That said, I'd love to friend you, if I may? I'm also thinking of forming a fireflyfandom reviewers comm, where the people who join do a fic swap everytime they post... i.e, Here's my fic, I'll review yours if you review mine. Who knows...

I saw your post somewhere about Mal/River dominating lj...so, so true. Rayne, too. Its a shame that genfic doesn't get so much attention--have you joined the fireflygen comm?

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Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:39 AM

Hey! I'm not ignoring your nice post, just been away from mail for a few days. Home construction and all.

Quote:
Originally posted by biggrstaffbunch:
would make you a BNF (big name fan) RIGHT away in Buffy fandom or HP fandom. I myself will try and leave feedback for every chapter, because I def do read!

BNF - that would be cool! Initials after my name LOL!

Anyway, I didn't mean to whine about feedback or lack thereof, so don't feel pressured. It's more that I wonder how many readers I have. (Yes, I have fantasies of drumming up support to write other things...) I just mean to say that it's encouraging how FFF gives a hit count, so you know people are accessing your fic, whether they comment or not.

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I'd love to friend you, if I may?

Please do! I'll return the favor!

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I'm also thinking of forming a fireflyfandom reviewers comm, where the people who join do a fic swap everytime they post... i.e, Here's my fic, I'll review yours if you review mine. Who knows...

I don't know if I'd be good at pre-agreed comment-leaving... Mostly because I just don't read much these days. My attention span is so short, and I only like to comment when I *really* read so I can say something meaningful and useful. (Which is why I have no leg to stand on about demanding feedback from my readers. I'm so bad about it myself! LOL!)

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I saw your post somewhere about Mal/River dominating lj...so, so true. Rayne, too. Its a shame that genfic doesn't get so much attention--have you joined the fireflygen comm?

You know, I think the same day I left that comment, a bunch of Mal/Inara fic appeared. It must be a temporary weirdness, all the River romance fic. Or... do you think that the long hiatus without new material from the source (Joss), and the fact that there is so little canon behind Firefly, is limiting to fic? I don't know, but I wonder if writers are digging into weird pairings because they've used up all the usual storylines...

I tried looking for an LJ community called fireflygen, but not seeing it. I'm a little ignorant about LJ. Help!

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Monday, June 25, 2007 8:50 AM

With one-shots and drabbles, I tend to get about the same number of comments here and on LJ, but I find that my series gets significantly more feedback on fireflyfans.net. I didn't originally start posting the longer story over on LJ, so that may be a contributing factor, but like Mal4Prez said, I've gotten a lot more comments on the last chapter (er... latest, rather) than on the earlier ones.

However, I find that, usually, the comments and discussion I get on LJ are more indepth than they are here.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and probably get in trouble, but on the whole, I've found the writing to be better on LJ, than here - that's not to say there aren't good stories/authors here! Just that there seems to be a lot more... less well-writen fic here. But then, I suspect that the population of authors here at fff.net far exceeds that of the communities on LJ, so perhaps that's just an indication of that.

As to what I do when I really want feedback... well, not much of anything beyond continually refreshing my screen *G* Personally, I find pleas and threats requesting feedback to be an instant turn off. If I see someone whinging about not getting feedback, or saying they won't continue if they dont' start getting some feedback, I'll likely not even bother reading their story. Feedback, while a lovely thing, is earned, not deserved. Trust me when I say I know what it is like not to be getting feedback on something you've spent hours of blood, sweat and tears on, but to me, a comment I receive that's unsolicited and left because my reader felt that something in what I wrote touched them or moved them enough to comment... that's the real feedback I want to receive.

There surely does seem to be a lot of Mal/River and Jayne/River about lately. Whether that's because there are a greater number of authors who are perhaps River's age and are living out their fantasies through writing her with these older men, I don't know, but I miss the other pairings (okay, I'll be honest, I miss Mal/Inara dearly!!) Truthfully, Firefly fandom on LJ seems to be in decline lately. I missed out on the golden days of when the show was actually on the air, and even on all the pre-Serenity excitement, but even when I joined, the comms were so much more alive and exciting than they are now. It's a sad thing.

BNFs... I think they are a breed apart here and on LJ. I'm going to get in trouble again and say that I see a lot of mutual back patting going on here, friends raving about friends' stories, making 'BNF's of people when their work is so often OOC and poorly written. Again, not to say it doesn't happen on LJ, but for the most part, (in my limited experience) folks on LJ will be more willing to offer you constructive criticism rather than blind adoration. Just my opinion. *shrug* So when I see someone on LJ that I think of as a real BNF in firefly fanfiction, I know I'm pretty safe in my assumption that they are an excellent author and not just someone begin carried on the shoulders of all their little friends' comments... (does that sound mean?)

Anyway, BSB, I've seen you on LJ, and I think I even left you feedback ;o) and I for one am glad to see you there! The more quality writers we have on LJ, the better as far as I'm concerned. While I agree with Mal4Prez, knowing how many folk are reading your work is a nice feature here, I *much* prefer the comment system on LJ, and I also find LJ easier to read, it's cusomizable, blah blah blah... you know. :o)

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Monday, June 25, 2007 9:14 AM

>Personally, I find pleas and threats requesting feedback to be an instant turn off.

I couldn't agree more.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, June 25, 2007 11:06 AM

ANNUETTE

I like lj, mainly because i find the interaction more personal there. I like a story, i review, i get a reply, sometimes chat starts-in a few cases mass chat, IM and rping. With fff, I haven't found that so much, though I haven't done that much FBing since my choice of pairing-or lack of isn't so popular.

I post my general fic here, i read the gen fic and some of the bits of slash that coem up. I have to admit to not reading as much here, instead i follow the authors to their web site of journal to read fic. That's not because i don't like fff, i do, but i'm photosensitive and the white on vlack makes my eyes hurt after a while.

For archive reading, i like the firefly glow but for fanfic ise i like ff_fic, firefly_gen (livejournal) and the slash orientated ones. Sometimes i get a couple of reviews, sometimes none, not just in this fandom but others too. If i really want concrit, i ask one of the ljers on my flist is they would beta harshly for me, but on the whole it's just a fun place to be.

Without feedback i wouldn't stop writing, I just wouldn't worry about posting things until i really wanted to. I keep forgetting to archive stuff, so i have a lot i need to put on the automated archives because i get FB there too.

Don't know if that answers your questions but hey :)

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Monday, June 25, 2007 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
>Personally, I find pleas and threats requesting feedback to be an instant turn off.

I couldn't agree more.

Ditto. Except I add this: someone asking for critique (ie "I'm a new writer and not sure what I'm doing, so please help me out!") is not a problem - as long as the writer is really ready to handle critical comments.

But the whole "pleeeeeeeeeeeeease leave feedback!" thing is pretty much useless. And annoying, when it’s tacked onto every single posting. I figure, the best way to get more feedback isn’t to beg for it, it’s to write better stuff. That’s just the reality we all face, as much as it sucks!

EDIT: wow, that sounded a little harsh... I should say that the way to get more feedback is to write better - and to write what the audience wants, which is often not possible. ie I'm not going to write non-canon smut on LJ, no matter that it might get me more feedback!

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Originally posted by 2x2:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and probably get in trouble, but on the whole, I've found the writing to be better on LJ, than here - that's not to say there aren't good stories/authors here! Just that there seems to be a lot more... less well-writen fic here. But then, I suspect that the population of authors here at fff.net far exceeds that of the communities on LJ, so perhaps that's just an indication of that.

Yeah… I feel like there are a few random FFF writers who can’t take the trouble to open any old paperback they have lying around and seeing the obvious differences from what they post. Things like… capitalizing the beginning of a sentence. Using quotations, and the punctuation around them. Sentence and paragraph lengths. Just using sentences and paragraphs for criminy's sake!

I’m not saying that to be mean; I just don’t understand how anyone can take the risk of posting a creation for pubic consumption and not be a little more careful about making it intelligible. That's just screwing yourself over from square one, and can’t be fun.

Anyway, 2x2, you’re right that there's a certain very poor level of fic here from time to time, but not so much in LJ. People there seem to be more aware of the basics. Hmmm, I wonder why? Weird.

I also miss the golden days – even though I wasn’t here for most of them LOL! I started reading fic maybe a month after the BDM, but wandered back through the whole BSR. It seems there was once a lot more vitality. But it’s hard to maintain that fire after nearly two years of no new material, I guess. (Joss! We need you!!)

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I'm going to get in trouble again and say that I see a lot of mutual back patting going on here, friends raving about friends' stories, making 'BNF's of people when their work is so often OOC and poorly written.

I’m not going to into the whole OOC problem, because it’s hard to define In Charcter with so little canon…

But, as for the poorly written, my feeling is the basic writer population here is focused on storyline, and not so much interested (or aware?) of the craft of putting words together. Run on sentences or many short sentences with no pleasing rhythm, a lack of clarity about setting and mood and point of view, not thinking out the details of how characters move and talk, that kind of thing. It gets to be all about getting character A and character B into such and such a situation, with very little care for how the scenes are constructed and presented.

Which, really, is why I don’t read much. When the first paragraph has three blatant spelling errors, an incomplete sentence or two, and no clear point of view, I’m just not going to read it. I don’t care how brilliant and interesting the storyline is - I want to be able to visualize the scenes without working too hard. I’m lazy that way.

Is this turning into an Unpopular Fic Opinion thread? Damn, and I was going to swear off being bitchy. Oh well. I guess I’m embracing my own personal reality. I’m a bitch.

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So when I see someone on LJ that I think of as a real BNF in firefly fanfiction, I know I'm pretty safe in my assumption that they are an excellent author and not just someone begin carried on the shoulders of all their little friends' comments... (does that sound mean?)

Well… FFF seems to have a culture of not offering negative criticism unless it is really, *really* blatantly needed. (I refer back to those writers who never seem to have looked at prose before... and even in that case the criticism is given super gently. A soft suggestion to get a beta…) And, like I said, feedback is almost always about the storyline, not the technical stuff.

By all of which I mean – I don't think anyone’s trying to make false idols here, and heap on praise that’s undeserved. It’s kind of just a culture of niceness. People get what I (in my bitchiness) see as barely deserved praise from total strangers as much they do from their friends. That’s actually a warm and fuzzy thing, if you think about it. But it doesn’t make the fic improve over time. No pain, no gain and all that.

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I also find LJ easier to read, it's cusomizable, blah blah blah... you know. :o)

So… do you know how to make the LJ fic stay in a narrow column, instead of the full width of the browser? I so want to do that, but I’ve never figured it out!

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Monday, June 25, 2007 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by biggrstaffbunch:
Then I entered firefly fandom on LJ and I heard crickets. Maybe cause it's summer. Maybe cause I don't write Rayne or Mal/River, which seems the biggest pairings there. Maybe cause I'm not a BNF. I'm not sure, but I'm very curious as to whether this is occuring to anyone else.

Oh man, am I right there with you. I think it's the same problem that plagues all manner of fandoms these days - seems like if it isn't a romance story, it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being noticed. It suddenly occurs to me now that that's why so many fan fiction sites ask you to fill in a "Pairing" field in the introduction - as if indicating pairings is going to net more readers. I've especially found that in Firefly and Star Wars fanfic, the latter of which I'm hemming and hawing about trying again.

But even when I first started posting a story here (which was subsequently discontinued in favour of a heavy rewrite), I got a fair lot of reviews on the first chapter. Posted another one, and readership fell off significantly. I'd hate to think, and somebody PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, that folk start to read a story that sounds interesting to them and then stop reading when they realise it won't focus on their favourite pairing (or any pairing at all). Now I'll be first to admit that I might start reading a story, but at the first drop of Rayne, I'm gone. (In case you weren't already aware of it, that's one pairing that truly sickens me.) But my other pet peeve is that it seems like so few people want to read a plot-driven, non-romantic and yet very well-written story: that some would sooner read a poorly written mushfest than a well-written actioner. At least that's been my observation on the Star Wars forums - like I said, haven't read a whole lot of Firefly fanfic as of yet, but considering the number of 'ships I see becoming preeminent, anything's possible.

And when there's dead air and I'm really craving feedback - which happens A LOT - all I've ever had a mind to do is just let the story sit and collect dust until I get interested in writing it again. Begs the question, though, how does a writer get to be a BNF in the first place? What have the rest of you noticed about writers with huge followings? Anything particular in their style or subject matter? Could prove really enlightening to us feedback junkies.

Zoe fought till
War was through
Fights with hubby
Sometimes, too
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats

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Monday, June 25, 2007 2:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Except I add this: someone asking for critique (ie "I'm a new writer and not sure what I'm doing, so please help me out!") is not a problem - as long as the writer is really ready to handle critical comments.

Oh, definately. I don't have any problem with that either, if, as you say, they can handle constructive criticism, and are willing to *listen* and *learn*. There's nothing worse than doing a beta for someone and then having them make all the same mistakes over again in their next fic. It seems a fair number of people expect that a beta is their personal 'fix it upper' and rather than work on their own problems, just beg for someone else to make them go away.

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ie I'm not going to write non-canon smut on LJ, no matter that it might get me more feedback!

There really does seem to be quite the split, doesn't there? I mean, there was a time when I pretty much stopped frequenting here because it seemed (from my perspective) that 99% of what was being posted was Simon/Kaylee smut - a canon pairing, but not one that I am interested in reading that much, do the nasty over and over again (smut for the sake of smut, as it were). But when I went to LJ, everything was Mal/Simon Mal/Simon Mal/Simon!!! Non-canon that I'm also not interested in. But then I've heard other people complain that there's just as much River/Mal and River/Jayne and Mal/Simon here as there is in LJ, and not enough canon pairings. *shrug* I dunno if it all depends on when you're looking or what... but I have definatly noticed that River is getting a lot of play no matter where I go lately *G* And holy off topic... *sheepish grin*

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Yeah… I feel like there are a few random FFF writers who can’t take the trouble to open any old paperback they have lying around and seeing the obvious differences from what they post. Things like… capitalizing the beginning of a sentence. Using quotations, and the punctuation around them. Sentence and paragraph lengths. Just using sentences and paragraphs for criminy's sake!

I know. I find it very hard to make it through a story when it's like that. I just don't have the time. The idea may be great, but if the execution makes it painful to read...

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I just don’t understand how anyone can take the risk of posting a creation for pubic consumption and not be a little more careful about making it intelligible. That's just screwing yourself over from square one, and can’t be fun.

Sometimes I'm amazed what some people will post *G* Braver souls than I...(says the over-editor) *G*'

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Anyway, 2x2, you’re right that there's a certain very poor level of fic here from time to time, but not so much in LJ. People there seem to be more aware of the basics. Hmmm, I wonder why? Weird.

I'm glad it not just me :o) I'm not sure why that is. Maybe because writing a journal involves, well, writing in the first place?? *shrug*

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it’s hard to maintain that fire after nearly two years of no new material, I guess. (Joss! We need you!!)

I know! *despairs* And I've read so much fanfic, I'm paranoid that I've lost my 'true vision' of the characters now, having been exposed to so much 'fanon' now. It's depressing.

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I’m not going to into the whole OOC problem, because it’s hard to define In Charcter with so little canon…

Hmmm... I'll grant you that ;o) But I still think we were shown enough to get a basic feel for each of the characters, enough to know when something feels blatantly OOC - at least, in my world ;o)

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Which, really, is why I don’t read much. When the first paragraph has three blatant spelling errors, an incomplete sentence or two, and no clear point of view, I’m just not going to read it. I don’t care how brilliant and interesting the storyline is - I want to be able to visualize the scenes without working too hard. I’m lazy that way.

Yep. I'm right with you. I simply don't have the time to spend weeding through a fic, trying to work out who's POV I'm reading from, or who's speaking, or if that's even dialogue when there's no punctuation... I hate being jarred out of a story by all that stuff. I don't think it's lazy, I think it's a reasonble expectation :oD

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Is this turning into an Unpopular Fic Opinion thread? Damn, and I was going to swear off being bitchy. Oh well. I guess I’m embracing my own personal reality. I’m a bitch.

Ah, go ahead and be bitchy!! I'm actually working toward realizing my inner-bitch, so any pointers would be appreciated :oD

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But it doesn’t make the fic improve over time. No pain, no gain and all that.

And I think that's one of the things I like about LJ better, because I know that I have improved my own writing through some advice I've received and sought out over there, stuff that doesn't seem to be as available here (or I'm just not looking in the right place)

I also enjoy the tailored communities there - I dont' have to weed through all the other pairings or subjects that I'm not interested in reading if I friend a comm that is dedicated to the characters I like best. It all comes down to time, for me. My reading time is limited. I want good fic that explores the topics I'm interested in. LJ provides that quicker and easier than FFF.net usually, well, when people are writing *G* But I still surf here all the time, looking for fic. I dont' comment as much (I'm bad, I know) because I don't like the non-nesting comment structure as much, and that means I can't complain when I don't get as many comments and fade into obscurity. Such is life.

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So… do you know how to make the LJ fic stay in a narrow column, instead of the full width of the browser? I so want to do that, but I’ve never figured it out!

I've figured out a few things I think, many of which are dependent upon your choice of layout, which can be dependent upon you level of account... Let me take alook at LJ and I'll talk to you there about it :o)

...honestly, I *never* participate in discussions here, but LJ has been *so* slow lately it seems... I feel like I've crossed over to the dark side *G*

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Monday, June 25, 2007 5:12 PM

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I'm not going to write non-canon smut on LJ, no matter that it might get me more feedback!

LOL! Don't send THAT to me to preview. I'll send it back unopened :P

And if YOU are bitchy, what the heck am I? Lol! Don't answer that. I'm bitchier and pickier than you are! :)

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Yeah… I feel like there are a few random FFF writers who can’t take the trouble to open any old paperback they have lying around and seeing the obvious differences from what they post. Things like… capitalizing the beginning of a sentence. Using quotations, and the punctuation around them. Sentence and paragraph lengths. Just using sentences and paragraphs for criminy's sake!

I've got to comment on this because I completely agree. If someone can't be bothered to get the punctuation right, I will rarely bother to read it. It detracts too much from my enjoyment of the story.

As an aside, I post my stuff here and at fanfiction.net, and, when I remember, my web site, but I don't post any of my stuff on my LJ page - it just directs people here. I dont' find LJ easy to use and, really, I don't need to post my stuff on every little site possible.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, June 25, 2007 5:17 PM

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that folk start to read a story that sounds interesting to them and then stop reading when they realise it won't focus on their favourite pairing (or any pairing at all). Now I'll be first to admit that I might start reading a story, but at the first drop of Rayne, I'm gone. (In case you weren't already aware of it, that's one pairing that truly sickens me.)

No, you might be right. It all depends on my mood if I want to read a real big plot driven story (and, I'm sorry, but, there are SO few authors out there who are good enough that can suck me into one)that doesn't have any, or much on my favorite pairing.

Even if my favorite pairing is in a story, BUT there is something like Rayne, or River/Mal or an OC/BDH, I will probably not read it as it typically makes me wince - mostly, because of the characterization.

Someone enlighten me and tell me what a 'BNF' is?

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, June 25, 2007 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:

Even if my favorite pairing is in a story, BUT there is something like Rayne, or River/Mal or an OC/BDH, I will probably not read it as it typically makes me wince - mostly, because of the characterization.

I have to agree with you too. I'll admit I have my preferred pairing and look for headers and keywords that indicate I'll get to read some of that in a story, but if it's a pairing I do not like (several of which you mention here) then I won't usually read. I'll have to see some pretty good writing for it to pull me in, make me believe it's possible and/or actually make me leave feedback.

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Someone enlighten me and tell me what a 'BNF' is?

It stands for Big Name Fan.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 7:04 AM

ANNUETTE

I'd hate to think, and somebody PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, that folk start to read a story that sounds interesting to them and then stop reading when they realise it won't focus on their favourite pairing (or any pairing at all).

Think it depends on the person, rather than a whole. I'll happily read gen, or a pairing that's new but if it's one that squirks me (mainly Book pairings to be fair) or there's a sudden squirk I will stop reading. I'll pretty much try anything but I do tend to steer away from reading a WIPs-unless the authors got a storyboard or most written.

It's just a personal preference purely because I've found a few a really enjoy and then they've gone unfinished and ive been disapointed. Also because i'm so impatient, i like to wait for the whole thing.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:10 AM

EMPIREX

What?!? People aren't giving YOU feedback?!?

Some people ought to be kicked in the shins.

I'm no LJ expert, but from the LJs I've been to, there's never a HUGE amount of feedback. I don't know why. Maybe because it's a relatively small community (Firefly fanfic writers).

I used to visit an X-Files message board called Idealists Haven. There was an entire board set aside for Fanfic: where people could promote their work, recommend fics, request fics, get feedback, find betas, ask character questions and just generally chat with each other... We need something like that. FFF.net is great, but the format doesn't lend itself to easy interaction between people.

Here's what I'm talking about: http://community.idealistshaven.com/forums/index.php?s=7655f86294618da
9d7938c4a082901bd

What we really need is one big Firefly fanfic website where every Firefly fic that gets written (good and bad) could be archived. FFF.net has the largest archive that I've found, but again... formating makes it hard to read and there's too few search options.

Here's another example: www.gossamer.org

Gossamer is huge and it probably takes a lot of time and money to run it (as does Haven). Still, with Browncoats being as organized and driven as we are, I can't believe that no one has done this yet.

Any computer whizes out there wanna give it a try?

ETS: Hey! What are you and Mal4Prez doing hanging out here anyway? Shouldn't you both be writing? Yes. Yes, I think so. We're due another chapter of TIYBOD and where, oh where is Ch. 14, Ms. Prez? Hmmm?

Back to work, the both of you!!! Scram!

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:36 AM

EMPIREX

Correction! Oh ho! Very sneaky! I almost missed you, 2x2! Does 'Choices' ring a bell? Still waiting on the epilogue over here! *waves*

Okay. My stalking duties are done for the day.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 2x2:
I mean, there was a time when I pretty much stopped frequenting here because it seemed (from my perspective) that 99% of what was being posted was Simon/Kaylee smut - a canon pairing, but not one that I am interested in reading that much, do the nasty over and over again (smut for the sake of smut, as it were). But when I went to LJ, everything was Mal/Simon Mal/Simon Mal/Simon!!!

I remember the S/K glut. It was everywhere - sexsexsex! And now it's all about River/whoever sex/love/sex/marriage/sex/babies/sex...

OK, I don't know shit about fic and fandom; this firefly thing is all I've ever done. But I ask those of you who know: is it normal in other fandoms for the fic to be so focused on pairings? Is it that just the nature of thing that it be mostly based on fantasies?

Thing is, it just seems wrong here. Firefly is not a romance thing. There is that, and it's great, but it's not the point of the show. And yet, it does sometimes seem like 99% of the fic.

To me, Firefly is about many things before it's about two people - any two people - being a pair. Things like:

- the folks who fall through the cracks of an almost utopian society
- how a group of these outcasts can create a home together (jetflair's idea of non-romantic Love)
- how war just about destroys a good man, and yet he goes on
- how another man can take the reverse path (Book going from a possibly Bad Alliance character to a man of principle)
- how a government can take advantage of people (River and the reavers) in the name of good
- how a naive, innocent, and pure young woman can be wa-ay sexually active without it making her *dirty* Oh, and she's also a mechanical genius. :p
- how a woman sells her body but is nonetheless a respected, powerful figure
- why this woman was driven to leave her comfy position to take up with the outcasts (is there a statement here about how the utopia isn't so utopian?)
- how extreme angst and snarky humor can exist side by side. Not only to entertain the viewers, but it seems like a survival mechanism for Mal and Zoe
- speaking of Mal and Zoe, how a man and woman (both het and both sexy as hell) can have such a strong bond without sexual tension. I mean - my lord! - how often do you see this in any form of fiction?
- And yes: it is about the attractions that spring up between some of these people, and now they may or may not act on it

My frustration is that fic writers throw most of this extremely good stuff aside to focus on sexual and romantic fantasies. All this worry about *pairings* does little justice to the amazing verse that Joss set up. The man is asking some tough questions with this show, and making wicked interesting statements. Things about sexuality (and I don't mean porn), feminism, masculinity, basic human needs (physical, emotion, and spiritual), violence, the potential good and evil of governments and corporations...

Maybe there was a time before the BDM when fans talked about all this meaty stuff, and writers tried to carry it on. If so, I'm sad I missed all that. I really don't see much of it now.

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I know! *despairs* And I've read so much fanfic, I'm paranoid that I've lost my 'true vision' of the characters now, having been exposed to so much 'fanon' now. It's depressing.

Indeed. It's like the characters have become bland vanilla barbie dolls that writers use to play out their own fantasies.

(Woo-hoo! The Bitch is out today!!)

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I’m not going to into the whole OOC problem, because it’s hard to define In Charcter with so little canon…
Hmmm... I'll grant you that ;o) But I still think we were shown enough to get a basic feel for each of the characters, enough to know when something feels blatantly OOC - at least, in my world ;o)

I absolutely agree, but there's been threads and threads about defining IC, and I've had my say about it. I'm done arguing that... for now anyway.

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I simply don't have the time to spend weeding through a fic, trying to work out who's POV I'm reading from, or who's speaking, or if that's even dialogue when there's no punctuation... I hate being jarred out of a story by all that stuff. I don't think it's lazy, I think it's a reasonble expectation :oD

That's true. The writer has the burden of making things clear, to make it as easy as possible for the reader. Not that that's a cinch to do, by any means!

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Ah, go ahead and be bitchy!! I'm actually working toward realizing my inner-bitch, so any pointers would be appreciated :oD

I have no pointers - it just comes natural to me LOL!

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And I think that's one of the things I like about LJ better, because I know that I have improved my own writing through some advice I've received and sought out over there, stuff that doesn't seem to be as available here (or I'm just not looking in the right place)

Critical comments are so important. I have a beta reader who just kicks my ass. It's sometimes hard to take a first look at all the red ink she gives me, but it's been so good! She really makes me think.

She also picks up on all the places where I knew it wasn't so good, but I told myself: well, that's sort of good enough. It's actually quite cool that she gets these spots - she's taught me to pay more attention to my own critical judgement.

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So… do you know how to make the LJ fic stay in a narrow column, instead of the full width of the browser? I so want to do that, but I’ve never figured it out!
I've figured out a few things I think, many of which are dependent upon your choice of layout, which can be dependent upon you level of account... Let me take alook at LJ and I'll talk to you there about it :o)

I have one of the free acounts. Cuase I'm lazy. I probably have to pay to make things look nicer...

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...honestly, I *never* participate in discussions here, but LJ has been *so* slow lately it seems... I feel like I've crossed over to the dark side *G*

LOL! It is rather dark, isn't it?

I do really like it here, Haken does an amazing job at making this a happy place, and I've met many super cool people. Really, if there were nested comments on the fic, I'd never complain about another thing.

Well, um... of course I would.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:13 AM

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Originally posted by Leiasky:
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I'm not going to write non-canon smut on LJ, no matter that it might get me more feedback!
LOL! Don't send THAT to me to preview. I'll send it back unopened :P

No, you'd send it back with a big red X across each page LOL!

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And if YOU are bitchy, what the heck am I? Lol! Don't answer that. I'm bitchier and pickier than you are! :)

We should form a bitchy ficwriters club - anything goes but hair pulling!

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and, when I remember, my web site,

Did I know that you have a web page? I don't recall... what is it, I want to visit!

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:47 PM

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is it normal in other fandoms for the fic to be so focused on pairings? Is it that just the nature of thing that it be mostly based on fantasies?

The only other fandom I was ever involved in was the X-Files, and while there was gen fic, it was predominantly relationship oriented.

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Thing is, it just seems wrong here. Firefly is not a romance thing. There is that, and it's great, but it's not the point of the show. And yet, it does sometimes seem like 99% of the fic.

Oh, I'd definately say it's the majority. And I will be honest and admit that most of what I write is centred on Mal and Inara's relationship... I like to think I try to explore that in less mushy ways than most, though I'm guilty of my share of fluffy M/I that's for certain... I guess, for me, it's because I'm just looking for some light entertainment, and not necessarily something that I have to think about over much. Maybe I'm lazy, or maybe I'm just looking for some escapist relaxation time, I dunno. I was drawn to Firefly as a whole, certainly, and for all the reasons you have listed, but my angst loving soul is owned by Mal and Inara's 'doomed' relationship, I guess *shrug* I guess we're all just looking for different things from fanfic.

That's not to say I won't read a gen story. Some of the best (if not the best) have been primarily gen stories. I'll read gen fic, and I'll read M/I (or almost any Inara pairing to be honest) and I will specfically avoid those stories that don't fall into the scope of my interests. As I said, a lot of that is due to time. I'm sure I've missed out on some fantastic stories cuz they were headed as S/K, but after the glut, I just avoided them in general.

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Maybe there was a time before the BDM when fans talked about all this meaty stuff, and writers tried to carry it on. If so, I'm sad I missed all that. I really don't see much of it now.

*nods* I often get the feeling that I missed out on a ton of interesting discussion by coming to the party as late as I did. I guess there's only so long people can have the same discussiosn about the same stuff without anything new to build on. It's unfortunate, I think I would have learned a lot from that kind of thing...

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Indeed. It's like the characters have become bland vanilla barbie dolls that writers use to play out their own fantasies.

Oh, gods, I know... ugh.

I mean, what I find the most fascinating thing about writing, is finding out what the characters will do in different situations - finding out I say, not *forcing* them to do what I want them to. The best thing in the world is when you think you know how a character is going to react, and then as you're writing it, they turn around and do something completely different, because as you go, you discover that that's what their character would do! I *LOVE* that! That's when writing becomes magical, when a character you write can surprise you and make you think about things their way, instead of your own way. So many people seem to miss that.

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I have no pointers - it just comes natural to me LOL!

LOL! I guess I'll just have to watch and learn ;oD

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Critical comments are so important. I have a beta reader who just kicks my ass. It's sometimes hard to take a first look at all the red ink she gives me, but it's been so good! She really makes me think.

She also picks up on all the places where I knew it wasn't so good, but I told myself: well, that's sort of good enough. It's actually quite cool that she gets these spots - she's taught me to pay more attention to my own critical judgement.

Oh, I *wish* I had a beta like that. I have friends who beta for me occassionally, and they will force me to fix things I try to sneak by from time to time, and I totally appreciate all that they do!! but I've never had to face that sea of red and know that there was all that to fix and learn from. I envy that so.

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have one of the free acounts. Cuase I'm lazy. I probably have to pay to make things look nicer...

Actually, I did a post, just for you! in my LJ last night about layouts with free accounts. There's not a lot I could offer, but I may have found a free account solution for you, so feel free to check that out :o)
http://browncoat-2x2.livejournal.com/111900.html

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I do really like it here, Haken does an amazing job at making this a happy place, and I've met many super cool people. Really, if there were nested comments on the fic, I'd never complain about another thing.

Well, um... of course I would.

*GRIN*

Well, I got my start in Firefly fanfic here, and I've never had more support for my writing, so I've got a soft spot for FFF.net, but yeah, the ease of comments and such with LJ won me over. I've met several LJers face to face now through the fandom, and that's just been the awesomest thing. I think that's one of the best parts of these fan communities, the fans generally just rock! :o)

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:54 PM

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Originally posted by EmpireX:
Correction! Oh ho! Very sneaky! I almost missed you, 2x2! Does 'Choices' ring a bell? Still waiting on the epilogue over here! *waves*

Darn!!! And I was *so* close to a clean gettaway too! *G*

I know, and I really appreciate the fact that you're still even interested in reading the end of it - I *do* know what's going to happen, for the most part, and I will finish it if it kills me. Somehow I've had this huge mental block over finishing it, like it's not going to live up to the rest of the story or something, and I think that's really be stalling my progress. But I just had a nice week long vacation followed by a weekend of browncoats and seeing Serenity on the big screen again, and I'm feeling kinda refreshed...
I'll be finishing the fic I promised for the Sweet Charity Ho auction (also late *hangs head in shame*) very soon, and then it's 100% focus on finishing Choices. So, thanks for stickin' with me. It does help to know people still want to read it :o)

And now to get back on topic.... *eeep*

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 2:02 PM

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OK, I don't know shit about fic and fandom; this firefly thing is all I've ever done. But I ask those of you who know: is it normal in other fandoms for the fic to be so focused on pairings? Is it that just the nature of thing that it be mostly based on fantasies?

Thing is, it just seems wrong here. Firefly is not a romance thing. There is that, and it's great, but it's not the point of the show. And yet, it does sometimes seem like 99% of the fic.

I'm from two fandoms, Tarzan The Series (Don't laugh, I was very young and naive) and more recently Prison Break. Both are heavily pairing focused, TTS is basically 100% pairing focused, and PB I'd say is 99% regardless of the fact that the regular cast is domniated by males (I do believe 1 female regluar in s2). I pulled out of PB this spring and put myself on hiatus from writing that fandom because I felt I had gone off into the deep end of the love/fluff/kids Michael and Sara movement. (Didn't want that, I wanted more substance in my writing) So yes, I do believe it's unfortunately normal for most fandoms to be focused on the romance.

*puts on camouflage and resumes lurking on this thread*

Ash

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:28 PM

EMPIREX

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

I remember the S/K glut. It was everywhere - sexsexsex! And now it's all about River/whoever sex/love/sex/marriage/sex/babies/sex...

OK, I don't know shit about fic and fandom; this firefly thing is all I've ever done. But I ask those of you who know: is it normal in other fandoms for the fic to be so focused on pairings? Is it that just the nature of thing that it be mostly based on fantasies?

Thing is, it just seems wrong here. Firefly is not a romance thing. There is that, and it's great, but it's not the point of the show. And yet, it does sometimes seem like 99% of the fic.

I'm coming from the X-Files Community. The X-Files was never about a romance between Mulder and Scully, but I would say about 80% of the fic out there is based on some romantic entanglement between our favorite FBI agents or the other characters. Still, the sheer massive numbers of fic that was produced for that show ensured that even that 20% was a lot!

I guess I understand why all the romance. I mean, I did squeal like a 5 year old and run around the house when they had their first kiss. I don't think I could even form a coherent sentence. I would probably cry if Mal and Inara ever got together. Or hyperventalate.

Anyhoo, I will say (in the defense of romance writers) that the majority of the fic I choose to read always has cannon pairing, BUT usually the romance is a back story. That's why I love your stuff, Mal4Prez: great, exciting plot with some great romance thrown in.

Of course I do enjoy a bit of fluff, too. But the stuff I read over and over is usually exceptional in some way.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:45 PM

OK - I'll take a step back from my stance as resident evil fic opinion person to say this: it makes absolute sense that fanfiction is the place to do the things that the writer of a show could never do. Joss can't have (for example) Mal and Inara share that lovely falling-in-love moment, because as soon as he does, the show has lost a major source of tension. Even if Joss is really good about how he does it, he can only make it happen once, whereas we can dream up all sorts of situations. And that is fun!

So, yeah, it makes sense that fanfic can create these lovely romantic bits, in a temporary way that doesn't ruin the whole long term arc of the show. And I've been highly entertained by this kind of fic from time to time, I really have! Actually, I've gone there myself, in little bits.

I think the real problem here is that we have no long term arc, so we're stuck in those little moments, over and over...

Hey - has anyone lynched Fox lately?

BTW: Tarzan the series? wow, I had no idea. When did that air? And there's a thriving fic community?

I'm so not hip on the fic scene LOL!

EDIT: EmpireX - just caught your post. The Mulder/Scully thing I can totally see. That show really played up the sexual tension between those two (at least, I think so!) without ever delivering on it, and all the alien/weird storylines are used up. I wouldn't know what else to write about with that show! I'll just stay here where it's nice and cozy...

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 5:56 PM

Wow, a lot to reply to!

FEEDBACK:
I find that the requisite "Feedback is appreciated" comment is the most I put in. Is that a turn-off? I know its not quite the ff.net tradition of OMG PLZ MORE LOLS REVIEW MY FICS PLZ and its not quite the fff.net tradition of posting and pretty much being guarunteed a few lines of feedback. A nice balance...

I also tend to crosspost on LJ like mad, though, which probably gets annoying, too. But I do tend to write for feedback on LJ, which is my own trauma, I guess, haha. I just like to know how I'm doing, you know? It was through one of my first Firefly fics where I got in a spirited discussion about my portrayal of Kaylee.

QUALITY:

2X2, I completely agree. I find LJ to have a lot better quality overall than fff.net, mostly because the system of recs. I get recced something and check it out. The back-patting syndrome is HUGE, and its not necessarily bad, because Browncoats are so friendly and all, but there is a certain amount of, "Is this fic good, or is it just being recced because someone's friends with someone else?"

VOLUME:

I agree with Steamer and others that its the culture of Firefly fandom on lj. Its still a fledgling fandom on lj, in a LOT of ways, more reliant on combining Whedonverse than sustaining discussion/fic on its own. And theres a tendency to take earlier fanfic writers and turn them in BNFs, sort of ignoring up and comers, I think, in favor of old favorites. I know, I sound petulant, but sometimes when I read these fics from so called BNF's, I wonder if character development is a word in their vocabulary, you know? Haha.

PAIRINGS/NON PAIRINGS:

I think with every fandom you find this. Fanfic is seen so universally as this way to vicariously live out your fantasies with fictional characters...when James Gunn made that comment about 38 yr old housewives in regards to Nathan, I blushed, because I may not be 38 OR masturbating to NF, but I do write a character with his face in some PRETTY compromising positions.

That being said, I can't critique. Most of my fic is pairing based, with a healthy dose of character sketch. I explore interpersonal dynamics best through pairings, I feel, though I am starting to LOVE the gen in FF 'verse (better than gen anywhere else) This is because, in my opinion, there wasnt a lot of time for Joss to really establish couples other than Zoe/Wash and Simon/Kaylee. There's the wealth of Mal/Inara, of course, but you tend to get those three pairings the most. With nine central characters and one of 'em a preacher, with no opportunity for a lot of seasons of peripheral characters, I bet it's hard for some fic writers to really figure out canon ways to develop a story past pairings.

Mal4prez, of course, manages it VERY well. :)

Non canon smut pisses me off, but so does canon smut. The S/K glut probably pissed people off too, haha. It doesnt leave room for character development, if both characters are regalated to sex monkies. I did myself write a S/K smut one-shot, but again--ONE. I hope I'm not guilty of the smut offense, haha.

Simon/Mal...Mal/Jayne, etc. It's all got to do with fandoms obsession with implausible slash. *cough* Harry/Draco *cough* It happens in EVERY fandom. Two hot guys together--what's better.

But they just sacrifice those character moments that 2x2 was talking about, those surprising moments that make fic worth it, to write two penises together. Blah.

EmpireX: You are WAY too nice. I'm always surprised and grateful by the feedback I DO get here, I suppose I shouldnt whine about no LJ feedback, haha.

Anyways, everyone makes SUCH good points!

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 6:40 PM

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BTW: Tarzan the series? wow, I had no idea. When did that air? And there's a thriving fic community?

It aired in 2003 and was cancelled after 8 epis by the WB. (which is basically FOX so there's a common evil lol). Good plot that updated the story and had it in NYC with Jane as a cop, good actors (Lucy, Lawless and Mitch Pileggi were in it), lots of potential, writing could have been better but it was a good show. There were some heavy duty campagnes back in the day to save it. Obviously it didn't work, hell we didn't even manage to get the eps on DVD. But because they left off at 8 eps there used to be a thriving fic community. There's still a small community, I hang around on the forum 'cause it's my roots. First fandom, first save a show campagne, first online friends, first fanfics, wax nostalgic and all that jazz lol.

I digress though, this is a Firefly board

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I find that the requisite "Feedback is appreciated" comment is the most I put in. Is that a turn-off? I know its not quite the ff.net tradition of OMG PLZ MORE LOLS REVIEW MY FICS PLZ and its not quite the fff.net tradition of posting and pretty much being guarunteed a few lines of feedback. A nice balance...

I do the same thing too, usually I put something to the effect of "Comments are shiny, I even take constructive critism". No begging, just a little reminder that comments are nice that I even take critism.

I don't do the smut either, canon or non. Can't read it, can't write it, just isn't my thing. If it's in a fic I'm reading, I usually just skip it and move on to the next part, but if it's too smut heavy I'll stop reading. I've always felt that never needs to be the focus of a story, even with romances. If we're talking about pairings... I can't get into any pairing that has River in it... it's just way to weird. (Someone's written a Book pairing? That's. So. Wrong)
As for slash, can't stomach that at all.

But I must say, since I joined FFF, your guy's smut & slash ratio is pretty low compared to what I'm used to. Like I said, I come from the Prison Break fandom that features one main female and about 10 main men as a cast. Most of the men are prison escapees, two of them are brothers, one con is a pedophile who goes both ways, and then you have the female doctor (Sara who cares for the man who broke his brother out(Michael) and she's a recovering morphine addict. Ten men, one addict female, you would not believe the amount of slash, incest and PWP that gets posted. Don't get me wrong, there's some good gen, romance, angst and fluff (I write all 4)... but yeah.... this stuff on here isn't that bad lol.

Speaking of PB... I know someone was talking about putting up a shiny site for FF fics, has anyone heard of an e-fiction site? Nifty free program to set up a site for archiving fan-fiction. Here if anyone wants to check it out for ideas...

http://www.prisonbreakfic.net/
Here's the place to get the e-fiction software
http://www.efiction.org/

*I'll shut up about other fandoms now lol*

Ash

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 6:42 PM

GOLDY

I'm jumping in here late, but it's a neat discussion. :D

I've always been an avid LJ poster. I'd even say that I've had much more responses and feedback on LJ than on the BSR. It's probably one of the reasons I just haven't gotten around to cross-posting most of my work here. Not that I don't appreciate the feedback I get on the BSR, but it's so much more dynamic and interactive on LJ. I love being able to reply to people individually and even have real discussions on character arcs/development - that sort of thing.

I've gotten really great feedback on LJ from the scant Firefly pieces I've posted lately, but I easily get twice as many comments when I post Doctor Who fic. (NOT that the number of feedbackers matters to me so much - I'm much more likely to write for whoever is yammering away loudest in my head. And sometimes I just have NO control over that. :D)

My point is, I'd agree that the 'Firefly' fandom on LJ has been a little bit quiet recently. I know that I feel in kind of a holding pattern with Firefly. I still LOVE it, but there hasn't been new canon in so long, I'm being tempted by new and shiny things. I wouldn't be surprised if that sentiment is shared by others, which probably makes breaking into the LJ community difficult.

As for pairings/ships - yeah, I'd say that's pretty much the standard fanfic format, no matter the fandom. It's primarily what I'm interested in, even if it might have slightly negative connotations. But I think for most of us, we want that gratification from our chosen romantic pairing that we'll probably just never get onscreen. I mean, for some people it's probably "pretty people + sex = wheeeeeeee" but I think most fanfic writers/readers just want the chance to explore it on that deeper level. I mean, we'll probably never get a resolution to Mal/Inara, so we might as well write 10,000 scenarios ourselves, right?

And also - I'd like to reiterate what 2x2 said about begging for feedback. I wouldn't ever accuse anyone in particular, but it is SUCH a turn-off for me when someone leaves a comment in their A/N along the lines of: "Please leave feedback!!111!!!" When you put yourself out there as fanfic writer/icon maker/artist/whatever, no one is obligated to give you anything in return. It's just a nice bonus. :D

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Wednesday, June 27, 2007 5:13 AM

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I find that the requisite "Feedback is appreciated" comment is the most I put in. Is that a turn-off?

Not for me. It's the 'begging' for feedback that is increasingly annoying. To the point I've considered not even bothering anymore.

I think 2x2 mentioned something about fluff writing and writing something with more substance and I can only give my opinion on that. It's SO much easier to write fluff with a little angst than to follow through on a heavily plot driven story (maybe with a little romance). It takes FAR longer to make sure you get every little thing right. Well, I know it does for me.

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It was through one of my first Firefly fics where I got in a spirited discussion about my portrayal of Kaylee.

I do like LJ for the ability to comment directly to someone who left you feedback. I just can't be bothered to put all my fic up there! :)

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It's all got to do with fandoms obsession with implausible slash.

I'll go a step further and add 'implausible pairings' because its not just slash. Again, just part of the writers own fantasies to put two people together and fail to characterize them well or believably.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Wednesday, June 27, 2007 6:08 PM

Hey there –

This is a great thread. You can find me most evenings in the blue sun room, sipping on a cocktail and reading happily along. Mal4prez told me about this thread and I read most of it late last night and promptly fell asleep before I got it together to post my response. Which tends to be the reason I don’t leave feedback. That and my browser keeps logging me off FFN. Anyway in response to several of the lines of thought here.

1. Being turned off by the begging for feedback

I feel completely different than most of you. I could care less if someone puts in a line or two saying they would appreciate feedback. As a matter of fact it so ubiquities I thought it was standard practice. I can see how lines and lines of begging might be annoying if the writing was really awful, however I often laugh at the different creative ways folks think of to let their readers know that the author wants to know who is reading and what they think. And I am guilty of asking myself. Mostly because it is a great way to get to know everyone out there. I’m not one for boards very often.

2. Sex/Smut/Unusual Pairings

I agree however that there is way to much sex smut out there. It’s just boring. I mean how many different ways can you write an orgasm? Been there done that. Next story please.

I really enjoy the longer plot driven stories. This verse has so much to offer, so many complex issues to explore. It really can really challenge both author and reader. I for one think I am really growing as an author, by my work I have posted here.

I find slash and most of the River pairings just wrong. Likewise Book pairings. Not because there is anything inherently wrong with mixed age or same sex relationships. It is just not the kind of thing these characters would do.

I think the reason that there is so much romance writing out there it that lots of folks in the country like romance novels. Go into any supermarket and you will find an entire rack of romance books, with maybe a mystery or two thrown in for diversity. It also seems to me that many of the authors posting are younger, teens and twenties. When I was that age, sex was on my mind a lot, I’m sure I’m not the only one. Authors tend to write what they are thinking about or they are familiar with. In my first couple stories I added kids to the mix, because lets face it, I’m a soccer mom. I’m surrounded by kids all the time. It’s what I know. This last story I wrote I needed a female character to be faced with and have help overcoming great adversity, because that is what was going on in my life.

So here’s a call for folks to get out there and write some really good plot driven stories examining some of the complex issues Mal4Prez listed earlier in this thread.

Ok time to add my pet peeve.

I hate it when I am working my way through a really good story then it just abruptly ends. The author just stopped writing/posting. And we as readers have no idea what was going to happen. Kind of like (dare I say it) Fox pulling the plug on us after just 14 episodes?

I tend to wait until a chapter is posted with the words conclusion or epilogue in the summery because I have just been burned to many times. There is also the factor that I have to much going on to remember what each of the BDH’s are doing in individual stories when there are weeks/months in between chapters. I like reading a whole story start to finish in a couple of sittings. It makes complex stories more exciting and fun to read.

Ok – I’m gong to stop babbling now so you can all tell me how much you disagree with what I’ve said:)

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:17 AM

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I think 2x2 mentioned something about fluff writing and writing something with more substance and I can only give my opinion on that. It's SO much easier to write fluff with a little angst than to follow through on a heavily plot driven story (maybe with a little romance). It takes FAR longer to make sure you get every little thing right. Well, I know it does for me.

That might have been me. I said something to the effect of I had stopped writing on another fandom because I was writing fluff fics but wanted substance. I agree with you though, fluff is a whoooole lot easier to write than heavy plot stories. Heavy plot stories for me invovle lots of notes and planning (and if I want OCs that takes even longer because I fear having a Mary Sue), fluff I can come up with a cute idea and just type. I didn't diss fluff, because I am very guilty of writing large amounts of it in other fandoms, but I just was saying I wanted to pull away from that and try something new. Fluff is good, it's always sweet to read something with a nice happy ending. But I also like something that's a bit more epic. There's alot more in them, it's just trying to pull off one that's hard. I love Mal4Prez's list that pretty much captures everything that alot of Serenity stories tend to lack. As heavily written as the 'verse is, there's still alot of unventured soil because I hate to say this, but alot of the fics out there are very formulaic. Then again I'm probably not the one to talk on about epic series. Fledging Firefly writer has yet to fully grasp all of the complexities I'm sure.

Speaking of fluff. I in fact I typed out a massively fluffy Simon/Kaylee fic last night. Lol, six chapters, doubt it will be posted soon though. I stupidly blurted on the Unpopular Opinions board that I agreed that having a baby on Serenity would never happen. What did I do? I did a fluff fic where Simon wakes up the entire ship in the process of bottle feeding his newborn son.

So yes, throw me into the formulaic, fluff bandwagon. I apparently can't escape it even in switching fandoms lol.

Ash

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:27 AM

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Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:
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, but I just was saying I wanted to pull away from that and try something new.

I've been doing that as well. It's been a long while since I've written just a happy, fluffy fic. Angst is so much more fun.

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Speaking of fluff. I in fact I typed out a massively fluffy Simon/Kaylee fic last night. Lol, six chapters, doubt it will be posted soon though.

Oh? Why? It's always good to have more S/K stories! Of course, I'm sure lots of people reading this thread are groaning over that comment! LOL!

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I stupidly blurted on the Unpopular Opinions board that I agreed that having a baby on Serenity would never happen.

LOL! Well, I did the exact same thing when I first started writing Firefly fic! I still don't think having a baby on Serenity is very practical, but it is fun to try and write a convincing story around it.

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What did I do? I did a fluff fic where Simon wakes up the entire ship in the process of bottle feeding his newborn son.
Ash

Aww, ok, I really do want to read that! So post it soon, ok?

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 3:20 PM

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Originally posted by Desertgirl:
And I am guilty of asking myself. Mostly because it is a great way to get to know everyone out there. I’m not one for boards very often.

Asking for feedback is quite different from having a permanent beg line set up...

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I mean how many different ways can you write an orgasm? Been there done that. Next story please.

LOL! I love you desertgirl! This is so true. I mean, porn is nice and all, but it can get a little overdone.

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I think the reason that there is so much romance writing out there it that lots of folks in the country like romance novels.

So very true - and therein lies the tragedy. We have an opportunity to do something more than the usual with this `verse. We have all the tools. So why be common with it? Why write the same married and pregnant and could be living in suburban Bumfuck, U.S. storyline that's been done and done and done? (Especially when that so departs from Joss's feminism... oh, that's another thread hijack. Sorry!

)

Which reminds me - so, I was catching up on GSB's Brain on Drugs fic today (sorry, didn't get to leave comments on the new stuff yet GSB) and that got me thinking. This is romance fic, and doesn't seem to be setting out to make any grand statements about deep issues. But it's being true to Mal and Inara and that means, by default, it HAS to address some very cool things. Inara's profession, for one, and how that comes between her and Mal. It's really good stuff.

See, that's the point. I believe that if writers really include the full depth of these marvelous characters, they have to include these "deep" topics. Good lord, so here I'm saying something that's been said a gazillion times: including all the juicy issues really comes down to writing In Character. If a writer doesn't have these issues popping up, odds are they're going OOC.

OK, really stopping now. Enough with the thread hijacking.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 4:12 PM

Fluff. Oooh, do I love it. Know why? 'Cause it's a nice, brief snapshot of a time in life. It's happy. It's sweet. And sometimes, it DOES include "issues." I am one of those authors who really, really likes to meta. Which means, I love to include my own opinions about show development, characterizations, etc. into story canon. So every one of my fics (well, okay, almost every one) deals with an "issue."

Even in one of my Kaylee/Simon fluffs, it turned into: Kaylee cleans the bunk because she thinks its something prim, proper Simon would get turned on by. Kaylee gets worried that Simon is losing desire for her and that's why he's ignoring her, when it's really just an, er, injury. So you have everyday relationship issues injected into something you think is just mindless excuse for humor/smut. I like doing stuff like that, and I'll echo Mal4Prez by saying that whenever you write a fic in FF verse that's IC, it HAS to deal with "issues."

'Cause otherwise its not our human, developing characters, it's some OOC Mary Sue. One of my pet peeves is Kaylee as eternally happy, Wash as just a jokester, Jayne as just a lout. They have LAYERS and I love writing that.

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By Mal4Prez: "This is romance fic, and doesn't seem to be setting out to make any grand statements about deep issues. But it's being true to Mal and Inara and that means, by default, it HAS to address some very cool things. Inara's profession, for one, and how that comes between her and Mal. It's really good stuff."

Well, first, thanks for referencing my fic, hee hee. I've been feeling out of sorts lately with all the backlash against smut on my flist. Tons of posts talking about how everyone is tired of smut, there's no character development, etc. etc. Now, most of my fics turn into R's and NC-17, and I was worried people would automatically dismiss them because of that. But you're right--TiYBoD was originally a crack!fic, meant to poke fun at how we M/I shippers want them to just do it already, in any fashion, under any pretense. But I found I couldnt do that. You'll notice the tone shifts between chapter 2 and 3, going from humorous to angst. That's because my inner meta came out.

It's impossible to have these two characters together without talking about what keeps them apart. That's why I love writing this. That's why a lot of S/K fics piss me off, personally. Too much time being cutesy, with Kaylee's vernacular and "country ways" clashing with Simon's background, but without any substance to that conflict. You get your great ones, though (shoutout to Leiasky, feeling the S/K love :P) and that's what reinforces belief in fic.

I think I love that list you made, Mal4Prez. We should call it the genfic challenge. See how many fics we can get out of it!

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:20 PM

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Originally posted by biggrstaffbunch:
I've been feeling out of sorts lately with all the backlash against smut on my flist. Tons of posts talking about how everyone is tired of smut, there's no character development, etc. etc.

Sorry for hijacking your thread. But it seems that we hae found here an issue in need of discussing. Thanks for sparking the debate.

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Now, most of my fics turn into R's and NC-17, and I was worried people would automatically dismiss them because of that.

I think what folks are saying here is that folks are tired of smut for smuts sake, especially when the characters are shallow and not true to the show, not exploring any deeper issues. Even the pro's have occasional smut in their books, when it is character driven.

I have a slew of friends who just don't get my love of sci fi. I frequently find myself explaining that with sci fi you can explore issues that are just too tetchy for a story set in the here and now. For example Season 3 of battlestar galactica exploring what ethical boundries you would be willing to cross to save your species? It was NPR that pointed out they are telling the Iraq war story from the Iraqi POV.

Its these deeper issues that make Sci fi(firefly expecially) exciting to both read and write.

I think what is really happening here is folks are calling out for more fantastic fic to enjoy.

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I love that list you made, Mal4Prez. We should call it the genfic challenge. See how many fics we can get out of it!

I have copied the genfic challange into my desktop and shall get to work. Although I think my next project involves exploring the results of an inequitable society.

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:30 PM

Yay! Desertgirl, I wish you lots of luck and happy writing. I fully admit that I'm sort of shallow in that I couldnt undertake the genfic challenge insomuch as you and Mal4prez seem capable of...my deepest moments within fandom are dissecting romantic relationships, and on occasion, other variances of human interaction. I particularly like the prospect of Mal's "mercy killing" of Tracy in The Message. I never get tired of examining Tracy's character...this morally ambiguous antihero-hero... so like Mal, but different.

No problem about the hijacking! I love the discussion going on!

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:46 PM

Genfic challenge....hmm....sounds like fun.

Which brings up a thought about stories that read like episodes. Does anybody else here like to go down that road, and if so, do you meet with any success? Can be pretty hard to get a story to read just like a TV episode and I wonder if that isn't another turn-off, if a body tries to write such a story and can't quite pull it off.

Anybody else feel to weigh in?

Jubal needs
To get a grip
River's turned
Into a ship
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:03 PM

Theres a couple of tricks from the TV episodes that I find really lend themselves well to fan fics.

1. Starting the fic with some sort of teaser letting us know where our BDH's have recently been or what is bringing them to the location/situation the fic is about.

2. Those dramatic moments just prior to comercial or a chapter ending. That make the viewer/reader want to stick around for more.

3. How stories are actually tied together at the end. Sequels may refer to previous episodes for background and motivation etc. But storylines do tend to be resolved on a fairly regular basis.

Of course my friend who writes regular novels really didn't like how I did any of these in my last fic. I told her "hey its fan fic."

Although are you tallking about writing in script format? I think that would be really tricky to get all the meaning out there without the exposition. Hence my attempts at prose

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Friday, June 29, 2007 1:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Desertgirl:
Although are you tallking about writing in script format? I think that would be really tricky to get all the meaning out there without the exposition. Hence my attempts at prose

Totally agreed - ergo I never write in script format, I'm all for novel format.

There's still them as like to write in what might be considered novel format, except that they don't put near enough detail into it to give a reader a clear picture of what's going on.

Ai ya - ending a chapter on a suspenseful note? THAT is a hell of a trick! I can never seem to pull that off. Mayhaps I need to come up with some stickier situations for the crew.

Love with Kaylee
Doc will give
Hell with this
She's gonna live!
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats

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Friday, June 29, 2007 9:48 AM

Quote:
Which brings up a thought about stories that read like episodes. Does anybody else here like to go down that road, and if so, do you meet with any success? Can be pretty hard to get a story to read just like a TV episode and I wonder if that isn't another turn-off, if a body tries to write such a story and can't quite pull it off.

Anybody else feel to weigh in?

I write in an episodic form for my series. The first story takes place weeks after the last episode (OiS or the Message, doesn't matter which one you fancy as last) and I'm trying to fill in the gaps between the series and the BDM (pretty much excluding the GN, because yes I read it, but I sorta didn't like it).

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1. Starting the fic with some sort of teaser letting us know where our BDH's have recently been or what is bringing them to the location/situation the fic is about.

2. Those dramatic moments just prior to comercial or a chapter ending. That make the viewer/reader want to stick around for more.

3. How stories are actually tied together at the end. Sequels may refer to previous episodes for background and motivation etc. But storylines do tend to be resolved on a fairly regular basis.

Ditto all of that you said. I also try to keep my fics around fifteen chapters. I dunno why but it feels to me it's not too long, it's like an actual episode length. And I agree, it's hard to write like that because you're going for that specific feel.

Side question: Hows does everyone feel about OCs? any tips on how you work out an OC? I'm always massively frightened to create a Mary Sue or mine already are or something. I write notes on my OCs before actually writing them out, particularly with the two in my story because they're crewmembers and they need some symbolism and dimension, but I'm just curious as to what other people do with OCs. It's hard enough to get the crew in canon lol, adding another face or two to the story is nerve wracking IMO.

Ash

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Friday, June 29, 2007 11:15 AM

I'm not a fan of OC's as a general rule. Most people can't write them well enough to make me like them, or the story. And I absolutely cannot stand an OC witten as love interests with any of the BDH's. They're always written far too mary-suish.

It does take a lot to get me to read stories (and not lose me) that have a bunch of OC's or a heavy focus on a few, but it does happen. Mal4Prez and Tamsibling write very convincing OC's.

I don't like the write them myself, though I do have some crop up here and there.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Friday, June 29, 2007 2:30 PM

There's been a lot of OC discussion hereabouts. Truth to say, it can be tricksy to interject OCs at times because you've already got so many main characters - the hardest part is giving every main character appropriate screen time while making your OC worth having around. Mayhaps the reason OCs tend to be a turn-off is because, as it's been said, the BDHs are themselves such many-layered characters - and it would have taken a hell of a lot more than 14 episodes to get past the first of those layers - that it's hard to give an OC that kind of depth without Mary-Suifying them. That's one point for a series of fanfics that share a common OC, it gives you more room to maneuver without pissing off your audience.

And as far as BDH/OC romances....Well, to each their own, but I find them easier (and in some cases, far more believable) to read than some BDH pairings. (Y'all know what I'm talking on by now.

) Like I said, if you're thinking of writing a series - or even a long fic of the proverbial epic proportions - there's a good chance that a BDH/OC romance won't sour appetites from here to eternity.

Niska's got work
Crew needs money
Can we swing it?
Yes, sir, honey!
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats

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Friday, June 29, 2007 5:36 PM

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Hows does everyone feel about OCs?

I think it is important to have some OC's in a fic. In the series each episode had a new character that influenced the storyline. Our BDH's do not live in a vacume, they have to have interaction with people. OC's make it possible for that interaction to be new and dynamic instead of the same old thing over and over again. I get tired of fic villians always being Atherton or Niska.

I think the trick is to give the OC's just as much dimension as you give the BDH's. And, not make them the central focus of the fic. They may be the client, the villian, even the love interest, but not another BDH. My beta also told me how important it is to have those OC's be gritty. It is way to easy in an attempt to describe them to describe them as perfect,causing Mary Sue alarms to go off with readers.

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I write notes on my OCs before actually writing them out

When I wrote my last fic I spent the first several days just writing notes about each of the oc's, the setting, the plot line, the tension and how it was going to be resolved, and the underlying themes. By outlining each chapter, I was able to make sure I knew where everyone was at all times,make sure folks just didn't dissapear for chapters at a time and advanced the theme and plot in the way I had planned. I found all this prework really helped the story become much more dynamic. I had to adjust my outline as I got into the writing, but I still refered to it regularly.

Good luck on the fic. - Desert Girl

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Monday, July 2, 2007 4:39 PM