Common or annoying characterization mistakes by jetflair

i'm in real danger of inventing a whole new one!..

Serenity as frickin Herbie in space!!!

jinkies!

make someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 4:22 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Serenity as frickin Herbie in space!!!

Now there's an unsettling thought.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:11 AM

MAL4PREZ

Wow - did this thread take off in the past day! Yay! I love character discussions. It energizes me to write, because there's no better way to show opinions about characterizations than to write them out.

Platonist: I don't think Mal's push with Inara in HoG is inconsistent. I think some part of him wants out of the cage that the war got him into (and I'm a total supporter of the Mal PTSD theory, obviously!) I think his ship and crew have provided him a safe place where he can take little steps toward healing, and the risk he took with Inara was part of that.

nbz - re Mal looking at River in the pilot. Yeah - I'm with you there. She looks so helpless and sweet, and I'm sure it got to him. Although, I think Kaylee's forgiveness of Simon was the kicker.

Mal ultra-aware of his surroundings? Absolutely! Like you say, he does read people extremely well, and he's very good at playing them when he needs to. But that's outer awareness. The thing I'm wondering about is inner awareness. For example... imagine a scene where Mal sits on the dark bridge and thinks: "I'm such a closed-off lonely man. The war really did a number on me, and I wish I could be like my old self. I'm just too hurt... But, hey - my crew has become special to me. I really... care for them... and it gives me hope. I wonder if I'm ready to take a risk... maybe I could really love[ Inara/River/Simon/OC/Mal pairing flavor of the day]"

Would that sit well with you? Do you think he's consciously aware of himself like that?

My take: Part of PTSD is an inability to recognize it and face it, so in my fics Mal is generally unaware of the real source of his moodiness. He kind of just goes with it, and does the best he can day-to-day. Not understanding why he is as he is makes it a vicious cycle, because he blames himself for the times when he's a callous jerk, and so has gotten to think of himself as a mean old man. Which darkens his mood, which makes him be mean, etc...

I know that this is my own version of Mal, and could be easily disagreed with. I mean, he does spend a lot of time being dark and broody. What the hell is he thinking about when he broods?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:41 AM

NBZ

Yeah, the PTSD is a stroke of genius. I had totally missed that.

Post-Serenity (where my mindset is right now), I can see Mal both wanting to keep close to all his crew, and pushing them away at the same time.

It will give a lot of meaning to what he thinks and says.

I don't think he is too aware of himself, except for the gut feelings. Anger, shock, happiness, dread, guilt etc. He must be aware of some of his shortcomings (but probably cannot see another way. He can't just lie down now can he?). he is not a moron. (but does he wear body armour?)

Quote:
What the hell is he thinking about when he broods?

That made me laugh.

But with the brooding, I doubt he really gives himself too much time for it. more of an action figure, keep his mind occupied with something or another. Like after the BDM make he May try to make sure that every single part installed by "not crew members" during the repair is rechecked. Because there may be a tracking device, sabotage.

Is he being paranoid, or prepared? or is a grown captain hiding from his own crew?

Until the BDM, where he was more prone to just walking off (where to?), he did not seem to give himself much time to think unless there was a significant matter to be pondered over. like at the start of OiS. Otherwise it was a routine of action, work, focus on others' problems. (after being tortured you would expect the focus to be on him... but he is more worried about Book, Simon, Kaylee, Wash and Zoe.)

In the BDM, Where does he walk off to when:

After the initial job and shooting the Reaver? Actually his quarters. But what about after Book dies, where does he go? What about after shooting that guy on the ship ("get to work" and then walks off)? While going through Reaver-space? (Shuttle 1) After watching the broadwave? (we stay with River, but he just walks out)

He has separated himself from the crew already, as in the series, when there were tasks to be done, he actually helped out. here he gave orders or walked off.

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 12:00 PM

Isn't this an amazing thread!

mal4prez: I'm so with you on the PTSD. And it fits well with what Nathan and Joss have both said about each character representing a part of Mal that Mal lost during the war. A fan actually came up with a list of what each of the 8 original characters represent, and how they react in each episode...like Wash, the lost little boy or River, his broken spirit, and so forth...anyway I can't remember what site or how I managed to find myself there, but it was interesting.

And, yeah, what is Mal pondering on when he broods?

Well, I know if I ask my husband that question he answers; what do you think? It's what all men think about every 3 or 4 minutes. And it's not, what shoes am I going to wear with my new outfit?

All of Mal's behavior makes perfect sense to him, nothing complex or inconsistent there. Brood and/ or get drunk. Yep, no problem, nothing to understand, get to work, get the job done... Must be a guy thing.

nbz: Mal walking away... good observations, I've noticed that when he can no longer keep emotional face, especially in front of the crew, he exists.
Like when Inara threatens to leave in the pilot, in front of the crew, you can actually see Nathan swallow all his real feelings down. He pauses and then tells her maybe it's for the best, before leaving. Or heck, anytime they come to an emotional verbal showdown, he splits.

And, I'm of the opinion that Mal is still disjointed, even after Miranda, to be a bonafied
acting member of a relationship with anyone. I do think that's what he wants, the loving wife, the kids, etc. But it's back to the mean old man, it's out of his grasp. He does tell Saffron "he wouldn't make a very good husband right now."
He needs a few more battles and wins before he can secure that future.

That's why, when in fic, when he is paired up with anyone beyond a nighter or two in a "lovey-dovey-happy-sappy romance, I'm like, get real, nothing is that simple in this verse. Mal just isn't, Oh! I'm in love with so and so now because we like the same guns or now it's this one because I won't have to say how I feel because she can read my mind and everyone feels sorry for her 'cause of the pens and all.

A most annoying character mistake.

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Isn't this an amazing thread!

damn helpful too!

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 3:05 PM

>>Mal just isn't, Oh! I'm in love with so and so now because we like the same guns or now it's this one because I won't have to say how I feel because she can read my mind and everyone feels sorry for her 'cause of the pens and all.<<

I love this thread. Very interesting. But... Platonist, I've been wracking my brain and this is gonna drive me nuts, so I have to ask... What
is this "and everyone feels sorry for her 'cause of the pens and all" business? Are you referring to River? Of what "pens" do you speak? I'm so confuzzled!!!

Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 3:14 PM

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
i'm in real danger of inventing a whole new one!..

Wow. I'm very curious as to what it is. Very curious indeed.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danniisupernova:
Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
i'm in real danger of inventing a whole new one!..

Wow. I'm very curious as to what it is. Very curious indeed.

_____

a whole new character mistake and possible new cliche (!) i meant. the ship Serenity is the 10th character... but i now see the trap of going too far with writing this (tho i may already have done so!) and creating Serenity as - Herbie in space! eek!

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 4:18 PM

Gosh, I'm not sure where that came from, EmpireX, but, yes, it is in reference to Mal and his apparent unrequited love for Academy attendees, clones of attendees, genetically altered attendees, escaped attendees, siblings of attendees, former friend attendees, and traumatzed mind readers in general (just to name a few I've come across) in the fic world.

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:01 PM

Wait, did you mean, like, "pins"? Cuz they stuck pins or needles or whatever in River's brain?

And... they have clones in Firefly?!? Isn't that a little X-file-ish?

Manda's brain is not working. Manda apologizes. Manda is going to sleep, now.

Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:26 PM

TUJIAOZUO

Quote:
Originally posted by danniisupernova:
Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Quote:
Originally posted by danniisupernova:
civilizedrules Simon/Inara
light_it, Simon/River
kayleewash, Kaylee/Wash
mal_inara, Mal/Inara
mal_river, Mal/River
rayne_shippers, River/Jayne
the_pretty_fits, Mal/Simon
zoe_wash, Zoe/Wash
jayne_simon, Jayne/Simon
enginesex, Simon/Kaylee
jaylee_ship, Jayne/Kaylee
iluvmycaptain, Mal/Kaylee
shiny_hats, Mal/Jayne
shinyheroes, Mal/Wash
mal_zoe, Mal/Zoe
ji_beyond_this, Jayne/Inara
geniusxmechanic, Kaylee/River
mercandthemate, Jayne/Zoe

The mind does boggle.

But you are right, it may have been unfair (atleast after that list.)

I do notice Zoe has only three pairing there. (probably should not have mentioned that. Giving people ideas and all...)

Well Zoe is usually a rare pairing person. I've read (and written) Simon/Zoe. I've seen Kaylee/Zoe, Inara/Zoe (V. rare)and Zoe/Saffron (!)

Femeslash is actually rather rare at times in our little verse. More m/m slash.

I've actually lurked through a few discussions on this in another fandom... sooo..
Femslash is for the most part very rare in any fandom. Statistically speaking (wish I had the link to this because it is very true, someone did a huge study on fanfic), there is far less femslash out there then reg slash. Statistically speaking as well, there are far more women in fandoms writing fiction then men. And the ladies like two hot men gettin' it on then two pretty chicas gettin' it on. So yes, in just about every fandom there tends to be more unconventional slash

*But for the record, slash just plain squicks me out*

As I look at that list of ships, and as a person that usually never digs unconventional ships (There's one I like out of all of the fandoms I've been in, which would be Li/Sa from PB. As much as I love Mi/Sa for the sweetness, Li/Sa is just so crazy/wild/badass/believable if written right.. but I digress..), I read the Zoe/Simon ship and for some strange reason I am suddenly immensely curious about it. I dunno why, but it does color me intrigued, probably because it's the same 'Opposites Attract' theme that we saw with W/Z, just a different application. Weird on my part considering I <3 Silee so much...

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:34 PM

Yeah, clones always pop-up in TV Sci-Fi. It kinda makes sense...the Brits cloned a sheep or a cow or something with four-legs a few years back.

Maybe I meant pins, I'm too lazy to change it right now.

Any plans to write and post more?

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:50 PM

Oh, yes. I have plans.

Such plans...

Actually, I just moved into a new apartment and still have to paint, so everything is getting pushed back until I can finish that. I'm tinkering a bit with The Ties that Bind. I'm going to update the snippet I posted on my LJ page in a day or so, but that's about it. I'm so exhausted from moving - the hottest frickin' week in Midwestern history! (i don't know if that's true, but it sure felt like it) - that it's hard to get focused.

Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 7:04 PM

You had a link at one time. I do remember reading. The prologue was way into the future.

An Inara (my fav) flashback, keep us posted.
I'm not very lj savvy, hopefully I can post a comment!

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:22 AM

MAL4PREZ

I started replying to this over the weekend, but had to think about it. I lost my point LOL!

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
And, I'm of the opinion that Mal is still disjointed, even after Miranda, to be a bonafied
acting member of a relationship with anyone ... snip!... That's why, when in fic, when he is paired up with anyone beyond a nighter or two in a "lovey-dovey-happy-sappy romance, I'm like, get real, nothing is that simple in this verse. Mal just isn't, Oh! I'm in love with so and so now...

Yep! This was my point! Characterizing Mal as a well-adjusted husband and father... doesn't work for me. Not unless Mal does a whole lot of addressing his own issues first.

Here's another one... doesn't it seem like post-BDM fics draw Simon as suddenly sweet great boyfriend? So, does sex mean he automatically starts saying the right things all the time? I'd kind of like a grittier depiction of his relationship with Kaylee, one that isn't all chocolates and hearts and doesn't have them automatically deeply in love. They had an itch to scratch, and they did. Doesn't mean all problems are solved.

I guess - any fic I've seen that has their relationship fail is clearly done just so that the author can pair them with others, and it's not an exploration of their own personalities and such.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:52 AM

Oh Yeah! We better be ready to take cover. Keep a look-out for the K/S shippers flaming our way!

I gotta agree with you on the S/K love boat scenario depiction.

In my experience, I've never interpretated "my one regret in all of this is not being with you" as a declaration of undying love.

Actually, it doesn't sound that different than any other asshole that's ever wanted and expected to get into my pants over a couple of Martinis during Happy Hour.

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:18 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Oh Yeah! We better be ready to take cover. Keep a look out for the K/S shippers flaming our way!

(Um... Leiasky... don't read this...) I've got an in - I'm betaing for one of the queens of K/S, and if she flames me I'll make her pay in red ink LOL!

But hey - I'm not saying there isn't something between Simon and Kaylee, I'm just saying it's not likely to be all peaches.

Quote:
Actually, it doesn't sound that different than any other asshole that's ever wanted and expected to get into my pants over a couple of Martinis during Happy Hour.

LOL! "If I die of a hangover tomorrow, my one regret in all this.."

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:27 PM

CAUSAL

My gripe isn't so much with characterization. It's the use of quotes or combinations thereof in fics. Criminy people. It was great writing the first time around. The second time around, it's trite, and makes the writer look like a hack. Make it sound like the character, but don't rip off something the character already said.

[ / rant ]

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:19 PM

LEIASKY

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
(Um... Leiasky... don't read this...) I've got an in - I'm betaing for one of the queens of K/S, and if she flames me I'll make her pay in red ink LOL!

LOL! No flames here:) And, really, how much worse could you make it? :P You already go happy with your edit pen! And what's this 'in' you claim to have, hmmmm?

Quote:
But hey - I'm not saying there isn't something between Simon and Kaylee, I'm just saying it's not likely to be all peaches.

I agree. I like a good, quick romp story as much as anyone, but I really like a story that takes time to develop the characters in their relationships. (Mal4Prez has done that REALLY well in hers. Puts characters through hell and sees how they come out at the other end)

Sometimes the relationships work, and sometimes they don't. But if they don't, it needs to be believable and not just to get one of them together with another character, whether it be an OC or another BDH.

Quote:
I guess - any fic I've seen that has their relationship fail is clearly done just so that the author can pair them with others, and it's not an exploration of their own personalities and such.

It's very obvious in many fics that characterization is pushed to the side to get a specific couple together. (Were you commenting on a specific pairing here? I didn't read back far enough to catch it if you did!) Which just sends the story spiraling into the unbelievable and ruins it for me.

I'd buy a bunch of different pairings if the two people involved were brought together in a believable way. And if there is a pairing already established, that is taken out of the equation believably.

But that's just me. Some people are less picky - and outspoken.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:25 PM

JETFLAIR

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I think some part of him wants out of the cage that the war got him into (and I'm a total supporter of the Mal PTSD theory, obviously!) I think his ship and crew have provided him a safe place where he can take little steps toward healing, and the risk he took with Inara was part of that.

Mal ultra-aware of his surroundings? Absolutely! Like you say, he does read people extremely well, and he's very good at playing them when he needs to. But that's outer awareness. The thing I'm wondering about is inner awareness. For example... imagine a scene where Mal sits on the dark bridge and thinks: "I'm such a closed-off lonely man. The war really did a number on me, and I wish I could be like my old self. I'm just too hurt... But, hey - my crew has become special to me. I really... care for them... and it gives me hope. I wonder if I'm ready to take a risk... maybe I could really love[ Inara/River/Simon/OC/Mal pairing flavor of the day]"

Would that sit well with you? Do you think he's consciously aware of himself like that?

My take: Part of PTSD is an inability to recognize it and face it, so in my fics Mal is generally unaware of the real source of his moodiness. He kind of just goes with it, and does the best he can day-to-day. Not understanding why he is as he is makes it a vicious cycle, because he blames himself for the times when he's a callous jerk, and so has gotten to think of himself as a mean old man. Which darkens his mood, which makes him be mean, etc...

I know that this is my own version of Mal, and could be easily disagreed with. I mean, he does spend a lot of time being dark and broody. What the hell is he thinking about when he broods?

Ohh, Mal. My topic of choice. First off….totally, 100% agree with Mal having severe PTSD. I think we see it happen in all of a few seconds, when he is ordered to lay down arms and watches the Alliance light up the valley. Mal's world ended in that moment, along with whatever faith and idealism that got him through the horrors of the war.

It accounts for a character so inconsistent that he does, at times, seem almost psychotic. He's got so many contradictions in the way he reacts to things, too many mood swings, too much of a tendency to comfort at some times and lash out at others. When he's not hiding from fights, he's seeking them out with glee. Sometimes he deals with adversity with incredible optimism, sometimes with a darkness so deep it's scary.

The thing is, he deals with it much better than most real-world PTSD sufferers.

Mal, self-aware? Very much so, I think….but not, of course, in the cheesy way Mal4Prez parodied above. He's an intelligent, feeling, introverted man. If I had to peg someone as not self-aware, it would be the Jayne type. Why would Mal brood, if he wasn't keenly aware of the choices he makes and the ethical, emotional, and physical ramifications of them? Mal isn't just haunted by his past, he's haunted by who he is and what he's become.

I agree that he isn't aware of the real source of his moodiness, in that he doesn't sit down and think, "Wow, I'd be a happier person if I were nicer to people and didn't have to get shot and stabbed and put my crew in situations that put them in danger on a constant basis." He, like most people, is not able to change who he is, and that is who he is.

But Mal – cannot be simplified into a person without deep compassion, the awareness of what affects people emotionally, and the ability to, for lack of a better word, manipulate them. I dislike the term manipulate because I associate it with people who manipulate others for their own gain or satisfaction. I don't think Mal does that. I think he "manipulates" people as part of his job as captain of a ship, and in order for them all to stay alive and stay flying he has to have a fine sense of how to interact with his crew and how to keep them stable.

Out of Gas is about as beautiful a portrait of Mal as a person and as a captain as I can think of. I watch it in awe of the way Mal deals with each member of the crew differently, and keeps all of them together. With Kaylee, he's soft and fatherly and supportive, with just enough firmness to keep her on task. With Wash, torn apart by grief and worry, Mal lays into him hard enough to shock him out of his own personal emotions, but stops well short of being cruel or showing a lack of understanding. With Inara, he gives just enough of an underlying hint of how much he cares about her, but keeps all the conversation on such a superficial level that the situation doesn't break down into heartbreak. And so on…..

One word for that is manipulation, I suppose. But I call it being a damn fine leader and captain….and when you keep in mind that Mal is facing the death of himself, his crew, and his ship, it's an extraordinary demonstration of control of his own actions and emotions.

It all ties back into the whole PTSD thing….I think Mal is capable of great strength, control, love, and nobility, even sustained over a long period of time and under stressful conditions. But he has limited control over when he'll flash into anger and meanness, make stupid decisions, panic and cover it with fury, and so forth. Fear? Mal? Hell yes. He's a brave man, yes. But deeply afraid and vulnerable, emotionally more so than physically. He'll face death before he'll face risking opening himself up to being hurt by Inara. He feels love and devotion towards his crew, but won't risk getting truly close to any of them. He has, as one poster put it in another thread "abandonment issues big enough to drive a truck through." He'd die for them one day, shoot them the next, and never admit to anyone that he needs them and their support desperately.

Actually, and not that I have writing time to explore it right now, I have a story idea involving Mal shooting a member of his crew. The exploration of the complexity of Mal and his contradictory actions of violence and compassion, his hardness and his heart inherent in this would be fascinating to write.

We as writers can explore any side of Mal's personality we want to, with different slants, because there is so much leeway in canon. Where fics go astray is by showing him as one way or the other long-term. The insensitive, selfish killing machine, the loving, stable, considerate husband…..those are all symptoms of ignoring aspects of Mal for too long.

I do think of Mal as the Mal from Firefly…..and that Mal is admittedly a "softer" Mal than the one in the movie. So those who want him darker have wiggle room to explore….I just choose not to.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 10:33 PM

JETFLAIR

Looking at this from a slightly different angle –
Mal's primary skill, the one thing he truly excels at, is leadership. And he knows exactly how, for lack of a better word, to manipulate people. He's an expert at it, and it comes as naturally as breathing to him.

The interesting, and incredibly lovable and admirable thing about him, is that we don't see him using that grasp on human nature to tear people down. He uses it to support them, bolster them, and get them through crises. Mal is easily capable of emotionally devastating probably every single person on that boat, not to mention a lot of other people he runs into. He doesn't do that. Heck, he doesn't even do it to his enemies. Remember him talking to Saffron after the heist? He sees through her completely, treachery and scheming and all, knows she's manipulating him, and yet sees and responds to the genuine hurt he also sees in her.

He has the trust and the loyalty of his crew because he supports them, not because he bullies them. Granted, sometimes that support might come in the form of threatening to sleep with a crew member's wife, but support none the less.

Most people with PTSD or any other deeply seated anger or insecurity issue *would* use that skill to lash out at and devastate those around them. Even inherently kind ones. But somehow, Mal holds back from that. When he gets mad, he uses physical violence, he says randomly mean things….but he doesn't *hurt* people. He'll punch someone out before he'll exploit their true insecurities. Even when he uses violence, he rarely uses true fear as a tool….or when he does, it's done carefully and not maliciously. He'll punch someone out, but not let them see it coming.

The biggest exception I can see to this generalization is his interactions with Inara. He *does* go for the kill with her sometimes. He does say things carefully geared to hurt and anger. And…..she does it right back. One reason Mal is so threatened by Inara is his knowledge that she is as good at this game as he is, possibly better.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 10:48 PM

still a great thread - and damn useful!

also: Jetflare - i read your fic with interest!

(oops! gotta dash!)

makes someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:39 AM

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Oh Yeah! We better be ready to take cover. Keep a look-out for the K/S shippers flaming our way!

I gotta agree with you on the S/K love boat scenario depiction.

In my experience, I've never interpretated "my one regret in all of this is not being with you" as a declaration of undying love.

Actually, it doesn't sound that different than any other asshole that's ever wanted and expected to get into my pants over a couple of Martinis during Happy Hour.

OMG SO RIGHT THERE WITH YOU!
*dies laughing*

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:06 PM

Since we are on the topic of S/K and fanfic characterizations and cliches...I 've had some time to go back and enjoy girlfan's "Even Roses Have Thorns".

post Miranda, plot driven, canon pairings with an interesting exploration of S/K, realistic and dark at times, but not overly flowery. Excellent believable dialog.

Be prepared for a long one

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=16576

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Saturday, August 25, 2007 6:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grizwald:
And making River talk about herself in the third person all the time.

(I have to wonder if River could ever have been the engaging, fascinating character she is without Summer. I doubt it.)
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I think it's okay if they make her talk in third person if there's a reason behind it. Like, if she's trying to prove a point about herself (like in Objects in Space) But if they're doing it just cuz, it really bugs me.

Also, I think no one can play River's part if it isn't Summer. Summer does the character perfectly, and I can't imagine anyone else doing the part.

River: "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems."

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Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:26 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grizwald:
I have to wonder if River could ever have been the engaging, fascinating character she is without Summer. I doubt it.

Also, I think no one can play River's part if it isn't Summer. Summer does the character perfectly, and I can't imagine anyone else doing the part.

Well I think someone else might have done a decent job but after the first ep aired, there was no one else that could play any of the BDHs. I agree with Joss that they were all meant to play those parts.

And personally, River is one of my favorite characters. She's another truly complex character that is all to often simplified and flatened out in fic. In a very real way River is several different people; there's the lost little girl who is sweet and sunny, there's what the acadamy made of her, and there's the actual and whole person she wants so very much to be. And of course, there are also the places where these different people meet. All to often, people write her as only one of these and that's just not t he character I see.

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Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:27 AM

Quote:
Well Zoe is usually a rare pairing person. I've read (and written) Simon/Zoe. I've seen Kaylee/Zoe, Inara/Zoe (V. rare)and Zoe/Saffron (!)

Femeslash is actually rather rare at times in our little verse. More m/m slash.

I don't think Zoe would be able to paired with anyone we've seen on the show other than Wash.

Zoe/Saffron is laughable, remember how Zoe thinks there's something not right with Saffron in OMR? (she was right, too, but that's not what we're talking about)

Inara/Zoe is unlikely. Remember, Inara's more than a little spoiled, and Zoe isn't.

Kaylee/Zoe wouldn't happen. They're just friends. And Zoe isn't gay. Not that I'm saying being gay is a bad thing, just that Zoe isn't.

Simon/Zoe isn't likely, either. Yes, they're opposites, like Zoe/Wash, but the reason Zoe loves Wash is because Wash reminds her of everything the war wasn't. Laughter, jokes, having fun is what Wash is all about. Simon, on the other hand, is a doctor. You know, treating knife wounds, bullet holes, laser burns, all that. That won't exactly make her forget the war, or make her smile.

And Mal is just a friend. Sure, they've been through a lot together, but he's the captian to her, not a possible romance object.

That's just my view on her. She's a very independant person, and ready to kick the crap out of anyone who she doesn't like

Bwaa!

River: "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems."

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Saturday, August 25, 2007 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
but the reason Zoe loves Wash is because Wash reminds her of everything the war wasn't. Laughter, jokes, having fun is what Wash is all about. Simon, on the other hand, is a doctor. You know, treating knife wounds, bullet holes, laser burns, all that. That won't exactly make her forget the war, or make her smile.

And Mal is just a friend. Sure, they've been through a lot together, but he's the captian to her, not a possible romance object.

The only Mal/Zoe pairing that makes sense to me is if it's set pre-Firefly - like during or directly after the war. While "War Stories" states that Mal and Zoe never slept together, there's wiggle room. I've read some very good Mal/Zoe pre-Firefly fics that made a lot of sense. They weren't *romantic* in the slightest. Just really well done *character* pieces that usually end with Zoe meeting Wash and then we, the audience, understand the difference between comfort/friendly/just-scratching-an-itch sex between Mal and Zoe and the healing/you're-the-one-I-want-to-spend-my-life-with sex with Wash.

The reasons you stated why Zoe and Simon wouldn't work are, I think, the same reasons Mal and Zoe wouldn't work. Zoe needed laughter and smiles. She needed to forget, or at least accept and move on. Mal can't give her that. Because *he* hasn't.

Uhhh... did that make any sense?

Awesome thread, btw. You guys are so smart!

Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

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Thursday, September 6, 2007 2:14 PM

Yes, you made perfect sense, and I think you're right. And thank you for the complement

.

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

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Saturday, September 29, 2007 7:06 AM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH

Quote:
Originally posted by Steamer:
Jayne the gentle giant. Sure, there were a couple of times in the show and the movie when he expressed true concern for another member of the crew; but by and large, Jayne cares about very little besides himself and his money. And Vera. So it kinda makes me shake my head when I read a long scene - or a long succession of short scenes - where Jayne is being Mr. Nice Guy, looks like he's on the verge of sitting on the bed next to distraught Kaylee, hugging her and rocking her to sleep. (Yes, I know you Jaylee fans go
bibbledy over scenes like that, but that's just me. ) I just can't see that kind of behaviour from Jayne; frankly, nor can I see him falling in love with anyone or anything besides a boatload of cold, hard cash.

Oh, YES!!! Thank you for bringing that up! That is an absolute pet-peeve of mine (along with the captian-daddy syndrom).

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My favorite quotes:

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Monday, October 15, 2007 4:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steamer:
Jayne the gentle giant. Sure, there were a couple of times in the show and the movie when he expressed true concern for another member of the crew; but by and large, Jayne cares about very little besides himself and his money. And Vera. So it kinda makes me shake my head when I read a long scene - or a long succession of short scenes - where Jayne is being Mr. Nice Guy, looks like he's on the verge of sitting on the bed next to distraught Kaylee, hugging her and rocking her to sleep. (Yes, I know you Jaylee fans go
bibbledy over scenes like that, but that's just me. ) I just can't see that kind of behaviour from Jayne; frankly, nor can I see him falling in love with anyone or anything besides a boatload of cold, hard cash.

ditto. Also, I hate seeing Kaylee as either childish or slutty. Grr... arrrgh...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)

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Monday, October 15, 2007 1:09 PM