Offense taken due to Chinese phrases? by Forrestwolf

FIREFLY CHINESE TRANSLATIONS

Offense taken due to Chinese phrases?

POSTED BY: FORRESTWOLF
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 00:56
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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 4:23 PM

I'm about to run another Firefly Neverwinter Nights game, and one of the players brought up an issue that had never occured to me:

She says she speaks Chinese (not sure if it's Mandarin) as a second language, and would probably not be comfortable roleplaying with the sort of rather vulgar phrases used in Firefly. Keep in mind - she's yet to SEE the show (I'm hoping she might after she plays the game!).

My question is twofold: Have people who speak Chinese found Firefly offensive in general, and how best should I approach this player's reluctance to use Chinese in the game? My guess on the latter is just accept it and encourage general Fireflyisms instead ('Verse, Core, shiny, etc.).

Suggestions?

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:22 AM

INARA78

Considering that chinese comic books are quite "ripe" by western standards you shouldn't have a problem with chinese folk themselves.

As I understand it they appreciate an inventive curse.

Your problem would be getting fresh and original curses as repitition wouldn't be appreciated.

Perhaps if you stuck to standard phrases like "shea shea" (thank you ver much) "do shea" (thanks) "dung ma?" (understand/comprehend?) you'd be OK.

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 3:12 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Forrestwolf:

She says she speaks Chinese (not sure if it's Mandarin) as a second language, and would probably not be comfortable roleplaying with the sort of rather vulgar phrases used in Firefly. Keep in mind - she's yet to SEE the show (I'm hoping she might after she plays the game!).

Suggestions?

My understanding, from a monoglot POV, is that the mandarin used in Firefly is not colloquial, but direct translation from english phrasing. My experience of expletives in english is that literal meaning is not paramount. Perhaps your friend could supply placeholders in mandarin that are not offensive, but could carry weight when expressed with conviction?

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:26 AM

JABULA

Lurker here, and sorry, I know this is a late response but I felt like commenting

Quote:
Originally posted by Forrestwolf:
My question is twofold: Have people who speak Chinese found Firefly offensive in general, and how best should I approach this player's reluctance to use Chinese in the game? My guess on the latter is just accept it and encourage general Fireflyisms instead ('Verse, Core, shiny, etc.).

Suggestions?

I speak Chinese, and truth be told. I've never found Firefly offensive. In fact, I'm often tickled pink by their inventive use of the Chinese language. Of course, half the time, I actually left wondering what they're actually saying in Chinese

Personally however, I get a kick out of non Chinese speakers trying out the language on me. I think that you should just use simple phrases like 'xie-xie' (thank you), to gauge her reaction first. If she likes it, move on to the harder stuff. If not, oh well, at least you've tried.

Quote:
Originally posted by inara78:
As I understand it they appreciate an inventive curse.

That is true. My personal favourite which is usually used in reply to comment about someone I can't stand, when loosely translated means, "She/he's is worth less than the split end on the hair on my leg"

I'll hush up now.

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:32 AM

FORRESTWOLF

Thanks for all the suggestions! She actually DROPPED OUT of the game beforehand - nothing to do with the Chinese.

But I'm taking note for when I run again, no matter who's playing. Just ran a game today that was quite shiny!

- Forrestwolf
Firefly NWN

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 12:28 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Forrestwolf:
...and how best should I approach this player's reluctance to use Chinese in the game? My guess on the latter is just accept it and encourage general Fireflyisms instead ('Verse, Core, shiny, etc.).

I once played Shadowrun with a bunch of buds and of course the game had its own little "sayings" and such. The GameMaster gave us a sheet with these "sayings" on them and encouraged us to use them.

As encouragement he offered more "experience points" to those that did and after awhile he started to dock those who didn't.

I think that that's the way to do it. After all Jayne even spoke Chinese from time to time and he isn't exactly an intellectual power.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 12:57 PM

FORRESTWOLF

I've used that before in exchange for people bringing in special touches to the roleplaying in fantasy RPG's - I'll likely use it for Chinese in Firefly. Great idea! Thanks.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:01 PM

GETCH

Hey there folks, just found this site and glad to see there is a movie version comming out. Can't wait. RE: the chinese in the show. Some fairly crude language, at times, but common. Some sayings like "ta ma de" literally motherf'er can be border line and not polite conversation, but often heard. The actors speak so badly, most Chinese would not understand it anyway. I speak Chinese as a second language, lived in china for many years. It's fun however to try and sort out what they are a trying to say.... ge wei, wan an. To all a peaceful evening.

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Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:08 PM

CYNDAMINTHIA

First post here folks! I speak mandarin almost as fluently as english, and I took no offense in any eps - as a matter of fact, I thought it was awesome that Joss Whedon incorporated Chinese into the show. Seriously, there's worse stuff in actual Mandarin TV dramas and talk shows...

*poof*

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Thursday, July 29, 2004 4:31 PM

MADOKA

mandarin chinese is my first language (lived in taiwan until i was 12), and i found the chinese used on the show absolutely hilarious. i often had to rewind several times in order to figure out what they were saying. :) the short curses and snippets (like 'doan ma?') are pretty easy to understand, but a few sentences were completely unintelligible. i was surprised that the curses were genuine, as in i've heard them used, some quite common. i wouldn't have said they were literal translations from english equivalents, though some are similar.

personally i was very amused and not in the least offended. and the fact that english translations were never given made it that much funnier. some of my friends were literally floored (with laughter) when i told them what some of the expletives meant. :)

--madoka

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Friday, July 30, 2004 8:41 AM

CYNDAMINTHIA

I think if there were English translations...well, the show would be rated R just for the language!

*poof*

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Friday, July 30, 2004 8:57 AM

TETHYS

off topic....sorta

how is NN being made into part of the 'verse?...is it a mod or something, because I have NN and would LOVE to be able to play a FF game.........

"You replaced Firefly with *barf* Fastlane?!"
Zoe:"Take me Sir. Take me hard" - War Stories

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 3:27 PM

FIREFLEW

Quote:
Originally posted by tethys:
off topic....sorta

how is NN being made into part of the 'verse?...is it a mod or something, because I have NN and would LOVE to be able to play a FF game.........

"You replaced Firefly with *barf* Fastlane?!"
Zoe:"Take me Sir. Take me hard" - War Stories

It's a mod. Go to Neverwinter Vault - I'm terribly sorry, but I don't have the link with me currently - just Google it.

Then, do a search for Firefly, less surprisingly.
As of now, it's a DM led affair, and the game I played was very fun

. Where're you in the world, time-zone wise?

Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 3:28 PM

TETHYS

eastern

"You replaced Firefly with *barf* Fastlane?!"
Zoe:"Take me Sir. Take me hard" - War Stories

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 3:49 AM

GORAMLAW

Firefly games? Sounds fun, unfortunately I have no idea what you guys are talking about! Anyone care to enlighten me?

"That only matters to the people on the rim!"

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 8:44 AM

FORRESTWOLF

The link is:
http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/modules/data/1080769905000.shtml

for the base module and the location of the haks. It's a big group of downloads, so be prepared - you're getting 11 custom classes and lots of custom models (guns, outfits, tilesets, and more), so you're basically getting a new game for free.

It's intended to be the base of someone's campaign - you can build with it just fine (documentation included). You'll need to be the kind of person who can DM NWN, which is tricky but immensely enjoyable.

Eliandi and I run our own separate campaigns, but trade areas back and forth. He's running one set mostly on Persephone, and I'm running one on the Space Bazaar of The Message. For more info on my campaign, head to www.neverwinterconnections.com, and ask either one of us. I would be very, very glad to coach someone through making their OWN campaign and DMing it.

- Forrestwolf (maker of the Firefly NWN system)

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Saturday, September 18, 2004 2:54 AM

AILIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by madoka:
mandarin chinese is my first language (lived in taiwan until i was 12), and i found the chinese used on the show absolutely hilarious. i often had to rewind several times in order to figure out what they were saying. :) the short curses and snippets (like 'doan ma?') are pretty easy to understand, but a few sentences were completely unintelligible.

LOL! The same here. =) A friend of mine sent me the episodes and I've been watching them with friends here in China and it sometimes takes us a while to get what's being said.

I like that they used CHinese, but knowing my Chinglish, their snippets seem to be a bit off. I'd never say, "dong ma?" in many of their situations, but, "ting dong ma?" and would have more random things being said ("zenme le?"). But that's just me. =)

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Sunday, December 5, 2004 7:26 PM

IZCHAN

Actually the curses in the show are not vulgar compared to the true to chinese curses. Most of the curse used in the show were literal english trans or simeple curses.

Chinese curses are an artform in its own, each dialect has a certain amount of curse words that cannot be translated into another dialect even, let alone to english.

There some common curses that are used and no longer as vulgar as it used to be (as people accepted it more graciously) ... but please be advice that those who trully understand where the curse originated from would be taken offence.

For example
"Ta Ma De" (mandarin)
Will actuall just mean "Your Mother's"
Which leaves the whole sentance hanging.
The origin of this curse comes from this phrase
"Ta Ma De Chow Zi Bai"
Which would mean, Your mothers smelly "vagina" (me being not so rude, you are free to replace vagina to the more commonly used words)
So when you use, the word "ta ma de" on a person, be very carefull because it is a direct insult of the persons mother. And no warm blooded male will take likely to that curse.
This curse have been in chinese language for so long that people came to abreviate it so that the full impact of the curse is not brought fought and thus slowly accepted in the common tounge.

There are plenty more of these curses around, and many use them without much thought, but it is really quite vulgar when you know what it trully mean.

Personaly when you compare chinese curses and english curses, you will see that the chinese does have a flare when it comes to telling another person what they think of them.

I once had a friend who can curse for 15 minutes without repeating himself and he was more or less out of breath when he finished his sentence. :)

Hope this helps.

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Saturday, December 3, 2005 4:51 PM

OOKAMIKAWAHARA

On the one hand I would say be cautious and know the people around you and situations. On the other hand I have taught some of my Japanese friends both Common English cuss words and also street slang. Remeber, in Asia (this is very general), but remember that you have to deal with face. Again this isn't as prounced in the U.S. and the West, but it is still here. Once upon a time Son of a bitch was grounds for a dual in the West. Same thing goes in the East, becareful of the insult cause it could leave ya in a heap of trouble. Part of it is just interaction and knowing the people around you. Anyways hope this helps. Also Ex-pats have a usual sense of humor so if they know that it is not lit and for fun most times its no prob and is hilarious for them. Anyways there is my 2 cents. shikashi minna san wa nani to omoi masu ka? mata, Ookami yori

Ah Hell Capt, we chargen another cannon

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Saturday, December 3, 2005 5:22 PM

ACESANDEIGHTS

Quote:
Originally posted by Forrestwolf:
The link is:
http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/modules/data/1080769905000.shtml

for the base module and the location of the haks. It's a big group of downloads, so be prepared - you're getting 11 custom classes and lots of custom models (guns, outfits, tilesets, and more), so you're basically getting a new game for free.

It's intended to be the base of someone's campaign - you can build with it just fine (documentation included). You'll need to be the kind of person who can DM NWN, which is tricky but immensely enjoyable.

Eliandi and I run our own separate campaigns, but trade areas back and forth. He's running one set mostly on Persephone, and I'm running one on the Space Bazaar of The Message. For more info on my campaign, head to www.neverwinterconnections.com, and ask either one of us. I would be very, very glad to coach someone through making their OWN campaign and DMing it.

- Forrestwolf (maker of the Firefly NWN system)

Excellent! Im going to have to dig my copy of NWN out of my desk and try it out!

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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 12:50 AM

LINGYULONG

I am Chinese (I speak Mandarin fluently, although it is not my home dialect). I do not find the Chinese used in Firefly to be overly offensive, but I do find much of it to be poorly used. Like...there are certain phrases/curses that you only use in certain situations, but Firefly throws these phrases around regardless of the situation.

What I do find offensive about the Chinese in Firefly is that Chinese is often used for cursing, which makes Chinese seem like a less sophisticated/respectable language. Personally, I find English to be a much more offensive language. I'm a little hurt that Chinese (a language of elegant poetry) has been reduced to a language of lowlife cursing.

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 2:42 PM

OOKAMIKAWAHARA

LingYulong
Thank you for your post and also your feelings.
I understand where you are coming from. One hand yes it is kinda sad that Chinese is only used for cussing in the show. On the other hand it is a great way to get many American's (I can't speak for the European's here) to learn not only the culture, history, and language of China. When I was learning Japanese, my class had fun w/ the language (cussing / weird sentences etc) yet we also cared about the culture, history, and language. It has enriched my life and I hope that the usage of it in Serenity/Firefly will eventually enrich others as well. (Before go any further yes I am aware of the whole mess between Japan and her neighbors and yes I agree that they need to learn more from history and repent etc) Just wanted to get that out of the way. Yeah thats the unfortent thing to, is that many people don't understand the context of when a certain word or phrase should be used. Thus they take it out of context or translate it wrong. The funny thing is as you stated people might thing that it is a less sophisticated/ respected language. Anyone that thinks that is a fool!!! Having worked a little with the language during one of my East Asian Philosophy classes. Hitting the sounds just right w/ correct accent is one of the hardest parts. I still have not mastered all of the characters that the Japanese have borrowed from your language and is something I continue to work on. Sorry for the long post, but hope it helps and hang in there. This board is a way to correct the misconceptions that others have of the language, culture, and history. mata, Ookami yori

Surren welcome to a long shiny post here huh.
I ain't disaggren, I only wanted a drink!!!

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 6:13 PM

ROLAND19

I dragged (literally...okay, not really) a couple of my friends to see the BDM opening weekend. They both thought it was great, but that's beside the point.
One of my friends, Cuong, is Chinese (in case the name didn't give it away). When I asked him what he thought of the use of Chinese in the movie, he said he couldn't tell what the hell they were saying.
There's 2 reasons I can come up with for this: 1)The BDM didn't use as much Chinese as the show, and 2)On the Firefly DVD the cast and crew talked about how they had so much trouble learning to speak the phrases, and many times it was to the point of incoherence.

-------------------------------------------------
The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 2:57 PM

DEEPKEY

Quote:
Originally posted by jabula:
Lurker here, and sorry, I know this is a late response but I felt like commenting

I speak Chinese, and truth be told. I've never found Firefly offensive. In fact, I'm often tickled pink by their inventive use of the Chinese language. Of course, half the time, I actually left wondering what they're actually saying in Chinese

I'll hush up now.

My wife's Chinese, Mandarin First Language, but can't understand the majority of what is said on the show.

I'm Anglo-Saxon and "Learning" Mandarin (Bad Mandarin) and understand about half of what is said, and I believe the phrases I encounter from PROC and Taiwan are considerably up a level from the harmless fun insults traded on Firefly.

Go on, call someone a Monkey's Bum:
"Houzhe de Pigou."

-Deepkey.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:01 PM

TYM

Actually, I thought the reason the show used Chinese mostly for swearing/cursing was to give them freer rein to be more creative in the swearing and keep it real (in the sense that adults do tend to swear a lot, particularly in the kinds of high-stress situations that our crew finds themselves in). It's kinda how in Buffy Spike would get away with saying certain things because he used British slang rather than American English (though I can't remember any examples right now). In the same way, on {i]Firefly characters couldn't toss words like "shit" and "damn" around willy-nilly in English, but they could get around it using Chinese.

In the movie, I recall being tickled similarly by phrases like Mal's "What in the sphincter of hell are you playing at?" and Kaylee's "I ain't had nothin' twixt my nethers weren't run on batteries", because the wordplay allowed the characters to say things a little more, ah, creatively without resorting to typical swear words that might've been censored or otherwise edited.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:13 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Tym:
Actually, I thought the reason the show used Chinese mostly for swearing/cursing was to give them freer rein to be more creative in the swearing and keep it real

No, Joss wanted to enforce the idea that Chinese and American cultures had meshed in the future. He then used that to give more freedom of profanity, but the reason was the meshing of cultures.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:14 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Forrestwolf:
Keep in mind - she's yet to SEE the show (I'm hoping she might after she plays the game!).

Well I assume that in spite of the fact she isn't playing the game you'll get her to watch. You'll have to tell us what she thinks.

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:27 PM

TYM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tym:
Actually, I thought the reason the show used Chinese mostly for swearing/cursing was to give them freer rein to be more creative in the swearing and keep it real

No, Joss wanted to enforce the idea that Chinese and American cultures had meshed in the future. He then used that to give more freedom of profanity, but the reason was the meshing of cultures.

My bad, I wasn't clear. Of course, the reason was Joss's vision of the future, with the Alliance and all.

I was posting in response to Lingyulong's comment above about the Chinese phrases being used for cursing only. What I meant to say when I used the word "reason" was that a functional reason for peppering the dialogue with Chinese phrases mostly for cursing and less so for regular conversation and such, was that using Chinese allowed Joss to get around the difficulty of incorporating "adult" language on network TV. Other functional reasons include the fact that this was an English language TV show intended to air on an American TV network, so of course it couldn't be a bilingual program, and also that none of the actors were marvellously skilled at speaking Mandarin :)

But yes, above all, of course, the whole Chinese thing started with Joss' premise of how the Alliance came to be, without having an exposition fairy explain it all to us in the show itself.

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:56 AM

DEEPKEY

Message contains a short definition of a word found offensive in UK but not US.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tym:
Buffy Spike would get away with saying certain things because he used British slang rather than American English (though I can't remember any examples right now).

Second series of Buffy, Drucilla takes of a henchman's glasses and is about to torture him, Spike turns to Drucilla and says:
"He may be a Wanker, but he's the best one we've got"

"Wanker" litterally means a man who plays with himself ("too much"), and rather unfortunately I've seen someone on cast and crew of one of Weldon's series with it as a surname.

Generally it's taken to mean idiot as unless it's said by a woman, it's probably kettle calling a pot black.....

This has been used on prime time on BBC2, similar to Bart Simpson using the word "Fanny" which would never be used on a British TV show as it has a deep and personal meaning.

Fact: first use on American Television was Phil Collins on Miami Vice, Directors wanted to use colloqiual english for extra authenticity. He went through a veritable lexicon of expletives with the directors saying "You can't say that on TV" until they heard "That Blokes a Wanker", they hadn't heard of it, Phil Collins just said it meant "idiot" leaving out masturbation references and the rest is history.

-Deepkey.

"What, no, I don't believe it, that bloke's a W@nker...."
-Big Train.

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