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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Anyone?


SGG

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

As far as Obamacare is concerned, it's just a big wet kiss for insurances and pharmas. HERE! (Obama says) HAVE ALL OF THESE MANDATED CUSTOMERS WITH A SWEETENER OF SUBSIDIES! When Obama took office, 60-67% of the population was for the public option. That's a mandate, if anything is in this nation. Obama squandered the chance to do anything meaningful, humane, and cost-effective and instead took it off the table and gave the healthcare industry even more opportunity to make unconscionable profits. What a weenie.

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Originally posted by reaverfan:
I think it's down to shouting "No third term!"

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Anyone?


SGG

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That was/is all playing to the base. It was never real...

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Originally posted by SECOND:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

As far as Obamacare is concerned, it's just a big wet kiss for insurances and pharmas. HERE! (Obama says) HAVE ALL OF THESE MANDATED CUSTOMERS WITH A SWEETENER OF SUBSIDIES! When Obama took office, 60-67% of the population was for the public option. That's a mandate, if anything is in this nation. Obama squandered the chance to do anything meaningful, humane, and cost-effective and instead took it off the table and gave the healthcare industry even more opportunity to make unconscionable profits. What a weenie.

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A better Obamacare would NOT have passed. The Obamacare we have passed by one vote from a nearly dead man, who then died.

Obamacare was the trickiest legislative move ever accomplished in the Congress:

Obamacare was signed into law in March 2010. If you recall, Nancy Pelosi’s Democratic majority in the House of Representatives was unable to pass their version of a healthcare law. Because all revenue bills have to originate in the House, the Senate found a bill that met those qualifications: HR3590, a military housing bill. They essentially stripped the bill of its original language and turned it into the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), aka Obamacare.

The Senate at that time had 60 Democrats, just enough to pass Obamacare. However after the bill passed the Senate, Democrat Senator Ted Kennedy died. In his place, Massachusetts elected Republican Scott Brown. That meant that if the House made any changes to the bill the Senate wouldn’t have the necessary number of votes to pass the amended bill (because they knew no Republicans would vote for Obamacare). So Senate Leader Harry Reid cut a deal with Pelosi: the House would pass the Senate bill without any changes if the Senate agreed to pass a separate bill by the House that made changes to the Senate version of Obamacare. This second bill was called the Reconciliation Act of 2010. So the House passed PPACA, the Senate bill, as well as their Reconciliation Act. At this point PPACA was ready for the President to sign, but the Senate still needed to pass the Reconciliation Act from the House.

More at www.briansussman.com/politics/how-obamacare-became-law/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Obama should be impeached, just like Bush should have been impeached before him.

It's not because Obama is a half-black Kenyan Muslim Marxist socialist who is ineligible for the Presidency (as rightwing nutters claim) but because he - like President Cheney .... er, I mean Bush ... before him- violated the Constitution over and over and over again.

As far as Obamacare is concerned, it's just a big wet kiss for insurances and pharmas. HERE! (Obama says) HAVE ALL OF THESE MANDATED CUSTOMERS WITH A SWEETENER OF SUBSIDIES! When Obama took office, 60-67% of the population was for the public option. That's a mandate, if anything is in this nation. Obama squandered the chance to do anything meaningful, humane, and cost-effective and instead took it off the table and gave the healthcare industry even more opportunity to make unconscionable profits. What a weenie.

The Constitutional violations came when Obama allowed... nay, EXPANDED ... the NSA's warrantless wiretapping. And he STILL pushing for expanding warrantless wiretapping, THIS time in the name of cyber-security. Yanno, you don't get a more secure system by allowing any entity to snoop at will into every server and PC and phone on the 'net. That simply says that a billion backdoors are required for the snooping. Nope, you get security by hardening EVERY net-connected device. And for important servers, you harden them against wireless snooping as well.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Don't be surprised if the next President is Republican.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Obama should be impeached, just like Bush should have been impeached before him.

It's not because Obama is a half-black Kenyan Muslim Marxist socialist who is ineligible for the Presidency (as rightwing nutters claim) but because he - like President Cheney .... er, I mean Bush ... before him- violated the Constitution over and over and over again.

As far as Obamacare is concerned, it's just a big wet kiss for insurances and pharmas. HERE! (Obama says) HAVE ALL OF THESE MANDATED CUSTOMERS WITH A SWEETENER OF SUBSIDIES! When Obama took office, 60-67% of the population was for the public option. That's a mandate, if anything is in this nation. Obama squandered the chance to do anything meaningful, humane, and cost-effective and instead took it off the table and gave the healthcare industry even more opportunity to make unconscionable profits. What a weenie.

The Constitutional violations came when Obama allowed... nay, EXPANDED ... the NSA's warrantless wiretapping. And he STILL pushing for expanding warrantless wiretapping, THIS time in the name of cyber-security. Yanno, you don't get a more secure system by allowing any entity to snoop at will into every server and PC and phone on the 'net. That simply says that a billion backdoors are required for the snooping. Nope, you get security by hardening EVERY net-connected device. And for important servers, you harden them against wireless snooping as well.

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
$12t to $18t is not "nearly doubling."


Math > You

Obama has not "nearly doubled" Bush's numbers. Not even close. Bush *DID* more than double Clinton's, though, and by a lot.

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
$12t to $18t is not "nearly doubling."


Math > You

Obama has not "nearly doubled" Bush's numbers. Not even close. Bush *DID* more than double Clinton's, though, and by a lot.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Cherrypicking and selective memory ElvisChrist, sad but true. Bush & Co. made Halliburton obscene amounts of money over the 8 years they led/bled the country.

Some, I'm afraid to even think it, probably wanted the economic collapse to occur.
When the ship is sinking, you do whatever you can to keep her afloat.


SGG

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
$12t to $18t is not "nearly doubling."


Math > You

Obama has not "nearly doubled" Bush's numbers. Not even close. Bush *DID* more than double Clinton's, though, and by a lot.

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I see where you're going with this.... The numbers are kind of skewed since they're from September. The way I took it from 2000-2008 and 2008-2015 makes it look better to me and worse in your eyes.

(We're really on the same side. I think both presidents were the worst America ever had to offer, but I know that anybody who doesn't love Obama is an enemy in your eyes)

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's work with the new numbers then, shall we? (SPOILER ALERT: I don't think they're going to work out the way you think they will when you now have to consider we're only looking at 6 years on Obama's watch instead of 7).

09/30/2001 - $5,807,463,412,200.06

09/30/2009 - $11,909,829,003,511.75

09/30/2015 - $18,150,604,277,750.63

In this case, W's share of the entire National Debt by September 30th of 2009 would have been nearly 49% ($5,807,463,412,200.06/$11,909,829,003,511.75)

That would mean that in only 6 years, Obama has raised the National Debt just under 35%. There's still 2 years to go though. Every year it raises more than the last, but to keep the math simple, we'll just average those 6 years and add 2 more. ($18,150,604,277,750.63 - $11,909,829,003,511.75 = $6,240,775,274,238.88 / 6 = $1,040,129,212,373.15 x 2 = $2,080,258,424,746.30 + $6,240,775,274,238.88 = $8,321,033,698,985.17)

These numbers would put Obama at just under 41% of the National Debt, which will be over $20 million at that time ($18,150,604,277,750.63 + the additional 2 trillion and change it will be by September 30th of 2017)

Keep in mind that the number when he goes out will be at least $500 billion higher by the time he leaves than that, and the numbers we are using are unfair either way to place blame on any one administration because of the month they take place in.


Also keep in mind that this is the worst kind of pissing contest ever. Either way, they both screwed us hard core.

Next time you buy that gallon of milk for $3.49 or that pound of ground beef for $4.59, I've got two guys you can blame for it. :)

Do Right, Be Right. :)



EDITED TO ADD: Either way Bush did NOT double the deficit Clinton him with, although it came very close. But that's talking about the ENTIRE deficit before the new president stepped in.

Obama is well on his way to raising the deficit by 9 trillion dollars before he leaves. Bush "only" raised it 6 trillion. :)



Either way, both of these assholes by 2017 will have accounted for nearly 75% of our entire National Debt in only 16 years. ;)

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
The numbers don't lie, but it's not the whole story. Bush did not inherit a war and near financial meltdown when entering office. A war that has lasted nearly 14 years and has cost us billions.

I'm not saying Obama is perfect (by the way, we need to include Congress in this conversation, both sides) but when you're thrown into the deep end with a lead lifesaver, you do what you can to stay afloat. Anyway, at least we made Cheney rich beyond compare.


SGG

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

To quote Jack Nicholson's Joker, "This Town Needs an Enema!"

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Boy, do you have a HUGE chip on your shoulder and a Walmart-sized laundry list of Obama crimes and misdemeanors.

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Just so you know, I am one of the few people on this site that repeatedly talks about the economic crisis, that began in early 2008, and reached critical mass in October/November 2008.

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I'm going to respond to just 2 items on your laundry list:
1- Senator Max Baucus: a supporter of the ACA, once called the ACA a "train wreck".............

The AP reports that Baucus, "who helped write President Barack Obama's health care law," "stunned administration officials Wednesday, saying openly he thinks it's headed for a 'train wreck' because of bumbling implementation." "'I just see a huge train wreck coming down." He went so far as to tell Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, that "The administration's public information campaign on the benefits of the Affordable Care Act deserves a failing grade." "You need to fix this," he said. Baucus also said "You and I have discussed this many times, and I don't see any results yet," meaning he has addressed the problem with Secretary Sebelius before.

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Timothy Geithner: Was never a Wall Street banker.

"The most blatantly false example is Geithner, who is pictured along with the words “Goldman Sachs” and “$1.7 million estimate of assets.” Despite a popular myth circulated on the Internet, Geithner never worked for Goldman Sachs. The New York Times wrote an article about how often this rumor has been misstated as fact, including in the venerable Washington Post.

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“To oversimplify it, and I think this was Jon Stewart’s framing,” Geithner told the students, “why would you give a dollar to a bank when you can give it to an American? Why not give them a dollar to help them pay their mortgage?”

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P.S. It is widely known that President Bush and Congress cut a deal with the Wall Street Banking Industry, lead by US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson (who was once a Wall Street Banker with Goldman Sachs) who pressured both the President and Congress into passing the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (the Too Big to Fail crisis). It involved the "toxic housing assets" known as derivatives that nearly collapsed the world banking system (all because of a handful of greedy bastards), and allowed 10 banking concerns to merge with other banks and take over 77% of the industry, making them too big to fail. Both Paulson and Bernanke fiddled while the country burned.

All this took place under Bush's watch. Obama inherited the worse banking
fiasco since the Great Depression (also man made) and you make it seem as though he orchestrated this unholy mess. I may be wrong but, only one Wall Street banker went to jail......

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Obama has made some mistakes in his presidency

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and, as a consequence, has been subjected to ridicule and constant negative verbal bombardment by conservatives and the far right. There are a handful of critics within the left that are not as abusive as some, but nonetheless vocal. But the innuendo and outright lies, well, I'm not impressed. You and all the naysayers have every right to believe as you do. Obama is a card-carrying anti-American Muslim who was born in Kenya, and is out to destroy America.

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Obama should be impeached, just like Bush should have been impeached before him. It's not because Obama is a half-black Kenyan Muslim Marxist socialist who is ineligible for the Presidency (as rightwing nutters claim) but because he - like President Cheney .... er, I mean Bush ... before him- violated the Constitution over and over and over again.

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I suggest that many don't even know the reason why they hate the president so much. From Day One, Congress has had it out for the president, why?.... because he's a democrat. Let's hope that's the reason.

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Originally posted by SECOND:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

To quote Jack Nicholson's Joker, "This Town Needs an Enema!"

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Joker meant "This Town needs an Election!"

What a well-organized group of people does when faced with an election is: realize that the election is happening, obtain some grasp of the stakes, and then vote.

But Progressives are weak at organizing.

Every local area in the United States features a church, and people who attend religious services weekly are much more likely to vote Conservative, i.e. Republican.

The other major civic institution in American life is a local chamber of commerce through which leaders of the business community engage one another on issues of common interest. They, too, are much more likely to vote Conservative, i.e. Republican.

Secular people, most likely to vote Progressive, i.e. Democrats, don't meet weekly to hear a little speech about secular values and their application to ongoing events in the community. Progressive Environmental groups are generally not real mass-membership organizations that directly engage ordinary people.

Nothing will cure these organizational faults ailing the Progressives.

Republicans have a perfectly plausible path to Total Political Domination — win the 2016 presidential election — while Progressives don't.
www.vox.com/2015/11/5/9672706/kentucky-virginia-democrats-denial

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I, on the other hand, hate Obama for what he's done, not for his skin color. . . . Democrats, with rare exceptions, do not offer an antidote to Republicans. Most Democrats will back down and vote they way the party leadership wants, no matter how craven or disingenuous the plan.

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If today was the second term of President John McCain or the first term of Mitt Romney, you'd hate those Republicans more than Obama.

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Originally posted by SECOND:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

To quote Jack Nicholson's Joker, "This Town Needs an Enema!"

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Joker meant "This Town needs an Election!"

What a well-organized group of people does when faced with an election is: realize that the election is happening, obtain some grasp of the stakes, and then vote.

But Progressives are weak at organizing.

Every local area in the United States features a church, and people who attend religious services weekly are much more likely to vote Conservative, i.e. Republican.

The other major civic institution in American life is a local chamber of commerce through which leaders of the business community engage one another on issues of common interest. They, too, are much more likely to vote Conservative, i.e. Republican.

Secular people, most likely to vote Progressive, i.e. Democrats, don't meet weekly to hear a little speech about secular values and their application to ongoing events in the community. Progressive Environmental groups are generally not real mass-membership organizations that directly engage ordinary people.

Nothing will cure these organizational faults ailing the Progressives.

Republicans have a perfectly plausible path to Total Political Domination — win the 2016 presidential election — while Progressives don't.
www.vox.com/2015/11/5/9672706/kentucky-virginia-democrats-denial

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Originally posted by SECOND:
If today was the second term of President John McCain or the first term of Mitt Romney, you'd hate those Republicans more than Obama. You'll always get less than you deserve by compromising and supporting a Democratic Party President, but you'll get nothing from a Republican.

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Cherrypicking and selective memory ElvisChrist, sad but true. Bush & Co. made Halliburton obscene amounts of money over the 8 years they led/bled the country.

Some, I'm afraid to even think it, probably wanted the economic collapse to occur.
When the ship is sinking, you do whatever you can to keep her afloat.


SGG

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
$12t to $18t is not "nearly doubling."


Math > You

Obama has not "nearly doubled" Bush's numbers. Not even close. Bush *DID* more than double Clinton's, though, and by a lot.

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Not sure what your point here was SGG...

If it was anti-Bush, I get it. Once again I will remind you that you can look back 8 years ago and see I was one of the few people calling for the impeachment of W.

That doesn't excuse Obama's reckless spending today.

Bush gave billions (trillions?) to Halliburton. Obama gave billions (trillions?) to Blue Cross Blue Shield.

Woo Hoo! Everybody has insurance now!!!!!!

That doesn't change the fact that hospitals will charge you almost $10k today just to do an ultrasound on your nuts to figure out that you DONT have testicular cancer.

Back in 1989, my dad's insurance only paid a little over $100k to fly the best neurosurgeon in the country to operate on my 6 year old brothers head when he had a brain hemmorage. That price also included a 6 month stay at the hospital, 24 hour care, food and countless physical therapy sessions after he woke up from his 3 month coma.

Obamacare didn't fix a single thing. If anything it's nothing more than a temporary bandage on the symptom of a disease that's bigger than Halliburton. The fact that healthcare is now Government Mandated for EVERYONE and subsidized for those who can't afford it only means that the prices will continue to rise.

The healthcare industry isn't interested in Health or Care.

They don't make any money if everyone is healthy.

They're evil vultures. They feed upon the sick and the dying. Period.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

My challenge to you is to forget completely about the Presidential election next year.

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
The numbers don't lie, but it's not the whole story. Bush did not inherit a war and near financial meltdown when entering office. A war that has lasted nearly 14 years and has cost us billions.

I'm not saying Obama is perfect (by the way, we need to include Congress in this conversation, both sides) but when you're thrown into the deep end with a lead lifesaver, you do what you can to stay afloat. Anyway, at least we made Cheney rich beyond compare.


SGG

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Numbers surely don't lie. But you're very right that they don't tell the whole story.

The Clinton economy was great for all of us in America. Nobody really talks today about how a big part of that was opening the floodgates of the WTO to every third world country that now employs most of the manufacturing jobs (China) and service jobs (India) that we used to do ourselves.

All that plastic crap we used to buy at the dollar store was nice. Now we're paying the piper.




All that being said... Bush Jr. might not have entered the office with an illegal war that he ended up starting, but he sure did enter office on the brink of financial collapse.

When Clinton left office, gas prices by me hovered somewhere between a buck and $1.30 a gallon. Nearly one month after W. took over they were creeping up to an unfathomable $2/gal and people thought the sky was falling.

As bad as a president as he was, and let me remind you again that we are in complete agreement on that, there is no way that he was responsible for that in only a month and it was one of those residual things that take time to culminate.

We've had quite a long string of bad Presidents. W. and Obama just happen to be the worst of the worst.


You're right about Congress' role in it all. They're even worse then the puppets we put into office. It's not just the presidents themselves, but their entire administrations behind them. (For example, your joke about president Cheny).


To quote Jack Nicholson's Joker, "This Town Needs an Enima!"


I say flush them all out.

Forget about impeaching anybody. Let them finish their term and then put them in the unemployment line.

If you want to spend your time and energy fighting anything, don't waste it on impeachments that will likely never happen. FLUSH OUT the OLD CREW and DEMAND that the new crew do away with all the "healthcare for life" and huge pensions that the taxpayers are paying for these self-serving assholes we mindlessly elect.

For a country with a government that is supposed to be "For the People, By the People", we sure seem to love paying through the nose for terrible "leadership" and then funding a sweet ass retirement for a shit job.

If 90% of these guys and gals phucked up their jobs that bad in any arena of the Public Sector, they'd be out on their ass without a golden parachute.





I think we agree on at least 95% of things SGG. Let's not quibble over the 5% we may or may not agree on.

It's time to bring an end to the division of the civilians. The only part of the saying that means anything to any of them in their cozy chairs is the "Divided We Fall" part.

As long as intelligent civvies are too busy fighting each other over bullshit talking points, they can just sit back and coast their way to a great living and retirement package for their entire family.


In honesty, I feel bad for the W's and the Obamas for having to take all of the heat, and I feel a little guilty talking about their administrations in this very thread as if they were just One Man. History will teach our future children that they were just One Man, just like our Social Studies classes taught us that George Washington and Abe Lincoln and JFK were just One Man....

I sure wouldn't want to be king......

But a cozy Congressional job where I can be re-elected unopposed from here to eternity so long as I don't get caught screwing around on my wife or with unsavory items on my computer????

Where do I sign?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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My point: that Obama was handed a dingy with several holes in it's hull to navigate through the rough seas of near economic meltdown. In other words, he was deep in the hole before setting foot in office.

Bush, as I recall, walked in with a surplus, and nearly doubled the national debt. Obama walked into a bear trap with a ball and chain attached to it. Bush mismanaged his way to the bottom, while Obama did what he could to dig his way out and up. The stimulus package may have been a risk but he was dealing with the worse economic collapse since the depression. No way he was coming out of that unscathed.

I'm not saying Obama was perfect, but his were errors of omission, while Bush were errors of commission (which is far worse). You say that Obama made the health insurance industry rich. Was this a purposeful maneuver on his part? So, if he does nothing - that would be better? The health care and insurance industries have been broken for years. I have seen this first hand - hospitals overcharging and double charging patients through careless, and purposeful, errors. So it's better to leave it alone and allow the industry to name it's price regardless. Yes, both industries are scum, praying on the weak and infirmed; Is there a better plan?

I'm no economic expert, but I dare say that the president tackled a heady subject, the opportunistic health care industry, and has attempted to reinvent the wheel. It seems to me that people want the status quo, rising health care costs and so forth. But, are overall health care costs really rising? The below article may shed some light on that subject.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Name me one thing that Obama did that was unequivocally good.

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, Bill Clinton raised the minimum wage. He wasn't ALL bad, he just set the stage for worse things to happen eight years after he left office.

When Obama's chosen mechanism to "avoiding a depression" (feed the rich) comes crashing down to make a worse depression than what we've just had, I'll get back to you.

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So just curious, do you think the US has ever had a good president?

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
"Ventriloquist - is an act of stagecraft in which a person changes his or her voice so that it appears that the voice is coming from elsewhere......."

Funny how when I write a response you find some way to distort or reinvent my words. You started out okay and then slowly the train began to veer off it's track. I admit, I may not use the correct words to depict my full meaning but, NO I did not say that he broke ALL of his promises (name me just one president that has kept all of his promises), nor did I say that he worked to maintain the status quo. Those are your words.

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He has worked to change that

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which we as Americans have come to know as same-o, same-o (status quo). But I'm not here to argue for what I clearly stated, that the president was tossed headlong into a firestorm, and people like yourself have pointed fingers but offer no solutions.

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Please don't try to put words into my mouth or try to change my POV. I'm not falling for that game. Please re-read my response and you will see that I believe that POTUS did his level best to "right the ship" as it were, and no amount of Republican doublespeak will change my mind.

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By the way, I don't expect for you to agree or disagree, but to merely be open to a different POV. I am open to yours and consider the possibilities, that is, of course, whenever I understand the point you wish to make. I reject, out of hand, the notion that this president was looking to sabotage the country, as many have suggested. Seven years ago there were right-wing enthusiasts swearing up and down that Obama was going to repeal the 2nd Amendment (which is Constitutionally impossible, no One Man can do that), yet here we are and it's still intact. Foolish humans!

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Believe what you will, it's a free country. I, for one, appreciate the president for his hard work to lead the nation in a positive direction. Has he made mistakes, of course, no one in history can ever say that they've never made mistakes.

The NSA thing, that's a load of crap.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/senate-passes-nsa-reform-bill-the-usa-free
dom-act/

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The ACA - pre-existing conditions, being able to add your kids up to age 26, the premiums rose for some and decreased for others. It would take some time for the industry to be positively affected in terms of costs coming down (Medicaid met with similar negative response).

Before there was the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (The Stimulus Package, a move the president was forced to make to jumpstart the economy)There was the:

- Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008: "enacted October 3, 2008), commonly referred to as a bailout of the U.S. financial system, is a law enacted in response to the subprime mortgage crisis authorizing the United States Secretary of the Treasury to spend up to $700 billion to purchase distressed assets, especially mortgage-backed securities, and supply cash directly to banks."

Bailing out the banks was established well before Obama took office - Bush, Bernanke, Paulson - any of these names ring a bell? Congress?

Obama took a calculated risk and it paid off. Unemployment is at 5.0%, the lowest it's been since April 2008 (before the near economic collapse).
The rich are making gobs of money, of course they don't exactly share that
with the general public. Need I go further?

And where exactly is this better plan? Can you share the MANY better plans you speak of?

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