Are we living in a modern day facist Nazi Germany by piratejenny

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Quote:
Hard labor? LOL.

What slave labor? The majority of criminals SIT in jail. Maybe they SHOULD be building our roads...then they might think twice about "stealing aspirin". About your stealing bread and aspirin; I'll bet you I can find, oh...I don't know....100,000 other cases involving rape, murder, theft etc. So don't pretend that evey criminal was just hungry and had a headache. No one said the criminal justice system was perfect, but it's not nazi germany.

Our prisions are concentration camps?????

Again read the post, read it very very slowly if you have to..because obviously your clueless about what we are talking about..Once again you failed to see the point

the post wasn't about crimnals, I'm sure most people don't have a problem with harden violent crimnals doing hard labor.

No the point of the thread was a discussion on how are prison system is being used as a source of slave labor and how through privatisation how this could be used against citazens in the future, how laws can be manipulated and changed to feed a steady source of slave labor..hence the punishment not fitting the crime..in some instances this is already true which is why you have a disportiontate of African Americans and Latinos in the prison system( the majority of which are in for non violent crimes)

the whole point was should someone who steals a bottle of asprin get the same amount of time as someone who rapes or murders

its really kind of sad that I had to point all of this out to you( by choice of course)...I don't even care at this point if I come off as condesending you deserve it.

I don't have all the answers and I'm no genius, but I know how to have a discussion... and I think its time that we as a country demanded more from people..have your own opinions have your own thoughts (please..by all means) but at least know the context in which something is put out and respond accordingly and if you don't know ask..

If your interested...and (I don't really think you are) but why don't you find out about the Prison system and Corportions, because thats what we're bascially talking about

but maybe I can help you a little bit..just a little bit

its not hard at all ...its just a way of thinking, some people can predict things..and not because they are physic, but because they can see whats happening today and apply it to tommrow

if you see something not right or bad happening and nothing is being done to stop it..its not that hard to figure out the most likely outcome..really its just common sense.

histroy itself is also an indictor, those who don't pay attention or learn from histroy is doomed to repeat it in some form.

Knowlege is power, their are alot of things going on in this country right now, that are an indicator of where our country is most likely headed if nothing is done, the good thing is , those of us who can see it or sense it can change it hopefully can use that knowlege to make some changes.

The only thing that really only makes America a great country is that we the people have the power to make changes with our vote..( hopefully thats still true )

knowlege is power /Ignorance is a slave

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Monday, November 1, 2004 9:51 PM

Quote:
You are living in a country very similar to Germany in the 30's. The rest of the world sees it, and we have no idea why the bulk of you guys don't.

Believe it or not most Americans are kept woefully ignorant, news in this country is very localized..at least its become that way..something big could be happening in one state, the other stated won't know about it, and our media outlets have become so conglomorate that it really can no longer be said that we have a free press.

You can find out more about whats going on in the country if you listen to the radio,..or go on the internet..but most people in this country don't do that they watch t.v

also if you take into consideration our failing public education system which isn't really set up to teach or learn anything but mostly memorization, also in the public school system thinking is highly discouraged..its all about conformity and memorization..which is one of the reasons why ignorance is so prevalant in this country now

also the fact that most family's in this country are either both working or the single parent is working a full time job or two jobs to support their family they don't have alot of time to spend finding out the facts if it means searching them out( America is the instant gratifcation country) the majority of Americans are tired.

Also too, compared to alot of other countries who have a long rich histroy of politcal upheals etc..to look back on for indicators and guidence, America is a relatively young country ..and don't have the histroy to rely on

and too if you take the fact that just about every American from the time of their birth is told that America is a great country, A rightious country, the Leader of the free World and that we have the best government system in the world, its hard for most to believe that their government would truly harm them or intentionally harm them, for the most part most Americans are pretty naive

Thats just some of the main reason why american's can't see!!

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Tuesday, November 2, 2004 5:33 AM

WADDLEDOODLE

I'm sorry, but I really didn't read your response. As much as I'd like to debate whatever points your making, I've decided to remove politics from Firefly. I'll go to the political boards and express myself.

Why am I being "so ignorant" do you wonder?

I had a member of this board say that the 3,000 Americans who died on 9/11 were statistically less important than people dying of AIDs daily. We all can agree that AIDs is a horrible disease that strikes like any virus, it kills indiscriminately. The terrorism that killed our friends and family on 9/11 was intentional premeditated murder. It wasn't a virus...it was willful murder based on a hatred of our religion. To be clear, when I say "our religion" I mean all flavors of Christians, Jews, (genuine non-wahabist) Muslims, Hindus, Atheists as well, since the belief in no god is a death sentence to Muslim extremists.

America is the greatest country on Earth. Simply because we are a refuge for the world. Here, we are all free. Here, we all matter, regardless of color or creed. You may believe in some popular stereotype that people like me are racist, but it's false. Ever American is my brother or sister, no matter who they are.

I'm a conservative. I believe in America. I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I'm pro-responsibility regarding abortion. I believe in lower taxes, I think the Government should do more with less money than the citizenry. I believe the Governments only obligation is to defend the Constitution and our Liberty, and shouldn't meddle in our daily lives. I believe in Americans of all colors and creeds. I have resonable debates with liberal friends who are patriots in my book. They, unlike some of the craven filth I've read out here are reasonable and responsible people who still love this country for all of it's strengths. They don't hate nor think we conservatives are any less important nor patriotic then they are.

You may hate America...the Constitution grants you that right. However, with these rights granted to you comes responsibility. You are obligated to make this a better country by working with your neighbors, by working for the common good. You may hate America but it welcomed your ancestors with open arms when they fled religious persecution and petty dictators. Find the good in our country and embrace it. Cherish it. Make it grow. But comparing the United States to Nazi Germany is an irresponsible action and the product of a small pseudo-intellectual mind that hasn't wondered far from campus. Rather than toss about such charges go out and start a business, grow a family, work for a charity, help a veteran, find some good in this country that has given so much through it's 228 years, freeing HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS from real fascism and totalitarianism.

So...here endth my sermon. Take from it what you will. Don't bother ripping it apart and dissecting it in some attempt to change me. It won't happen.

God bless you and yours, the troops defending our liberty and the United States of America.

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Tuesday, November 2, 2004 8:50 AM

@Piratejenny:
I believe that WaddleDoodle is one of those that people that you're talking about.

I am that person that (s)he is talking about and that is exactly what i did *not* do/say. I believe that this person must be functionally illiterate as what I was getting at was clear and reiterated and clarified (more so) in another post. Or at least (s)he is letting emotion get in the way and reading what (s)he wants to read instead of reading what I typed.

While in San Francisco I visited a Discovery Channel Store. In it they had a book, I can't remember the exact title, that was titled something like "The lies that they told you in highschool and the truth about them."

I really believe that WaddleDoodle should buy and read this, or a like book, as (s)he seems to be pretty deluded about the history of her/his own country. Just another product of that education system, eh

But on another point, Canada is a quite young country as well and has *far* less problems than the states.

I would conjecture that it has a lot to do with the isolationist ways of the US. Canada has continued its relations with the rest of the world and has participated in the intellectual developments therein. Whereas the US seems to think itself too great to have to "lower" itself to such matters.

Why can't people see that the middle ground is where things should be? That this is the most stable place to be? I guess everyone must have there way. And with the US general attitude of, it's my way or the highway... Well, look where its lead.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, November 2, 2004 9:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:
I'm sorry, but I really didn't read your response. As much as I'd like to debate whatever points your making, I've decided to remove politics from Firefly. I'll go to the political boards and express myself.

Why am I being "so ignorant" do you wonder?

I had a member of this board say that the 3,000 Americans who died on 9/11 were statistically less important than people dying of AIDs daily. We all can agree that AIDs is a horrible disease that strikes like any virus, it kills indiscriminately. The terrorism that killed our friends and family on 9/11 was intentional premeditated murder. It wasn't a virus...it was willful murder based on a hatred of our religion. To be clear, when I say "our religion" I mean all flavors of Christians, Jews, (genuine non-wahabist) Muslims, Hindus, Atheists as well, since the belief in no god is a death sentence to Muslim extremists.

America is the greatest country on Earth. Simply because we are a refuge for the world. Here, we are all free. Here, we all matter, regardless of color or creed. You may believe in some popular stereotype that people like me are racist, but it's false. Ever American is my brother or sister, no matter who they are.

I'm a conservative. I believe in America. I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I'm pro-responsibility regarding abortion. I believe in lower taxes, I think the Government should do more with less money than the citizenry. I believe the Governments only obligation is to defend the Constitution and our Liberty, and shouldn't meddle in our daily lives. I believe in Americans of all colors and creeds. I have resonable debates with liberal friends who are patriots in my book. They, unlike some of the craven filth I've read out here are reasonable and responsible people who still love this country for all of it's strengths. They don't hate nor think we conservatives are any less important nor patriotic then they are.

You may hate America...the Constitution grants you that right. However, with these rights granted to you comes responsibility. You are obligated to make this a better country by working with your neighbors, by working for the common good. You may hate America but it welcomed your ancestors with open arms when they fled religious persecution and petty dictators. Find the good in our country and embrace it. Cherish it. Make it grow. But comparing the United States to Nazi Germany is an irresponsible action and the product of a small pseudo-intellectual mind that hasn't wondered far from campus. Rather than toss about such charges go out and start a business, grow a family, work for a charity, help a veteran, find some good in this country that has given so much through it's 228 years, freeing HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS from real fascism and totalitarianism.

So...here endth my sermon. Take from it what you will. Don't bother ripping it apart and dissecting it in some attempt to change me. It won't happen.

God bless you and yours, the troops defending our liberty and the United States of America.

all I can say to you, is I think its a good idea if you refrain from these topics if you can't, distinguish whats being said..I don't mean that flippantly..but for your own sake,

this thread and my post in particular had nothing to due with 911 or people dying of Aids, it wasn't even about terrorist, there is nothing stopping you from starting a thread on these topics if you feel so strongly about it and you should do that..instead of coming into another thread in a very arrogant way( it only makes you seem bad)

at least we can agree that we love this country, thats why I started this thread, because I want whats best for myself and my country men...

I don't really know if America is a great Country, I think it is a country with the potential to be great..and I think there are some great things about it..but I also think we have alot of work to do and we can always strive for better we should strive for greatness

unfortuantly the greatness that so many Americans talk about, I really think it comes more from being brandished and brainwashed from birth about our country and has less to do with the state and reality of our country..

we've been told a lot of half truths and some out right lies about our country..and alot of our ego is tied into our country ..its understandable, but we also need to realise too that some of it is brainwashing...We Americans really have some fragile egos..

Loving your country and being patriotic doesn't mean you can't be honest about it.

I have no desire to change your post or rip into you for your thoughts...

I just ask that you please repsect yourself and your fellow poster enough, to read what they are saying before you form an opinion and rip into their post!!

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Tuesday, November 2, 2004 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@Piratejenny:
I believe that WaddleDoodle is one of those that people that you're talking about.

I am that person that (s)he is talking about and that is exactly what i did *not* do/say. I believe that this person must be functionally illiterate as what I was getting at was clear and reiterated and clarified (more so) in another post. Or at least (s)he is letting emotion get in the way and reading what (s)he wants to read instead of reading what I typed.

While in San Francisco I visited a Discovery Channel Store. In it they had a book, I can't remember the exact title, that was titled something like "The lies that they told you in highschool and the truth about them."

I really believe that WaddleDoodle should buy and read this, or a like book, as (s)he seems to be pretty deluded about the history of her/his own country. Just another product of that education system, eh

But on another point, Canada is a quite young country as well and has *far* less problems than the states.

I would conjecture that it has a lot to do with the isolationist ways of the US. Canada has continued its relations with the rest of the world and has participated in the intellectual developments therein. Whereas the US seems to think itself too great to have to "lower" itself to such matters.

Why can't people see that the middle ground is where things should be? That this is the most stable place to be? I guess everyone must have there way. And with the US general attitude of, it's my way or the highway... Well, look where its lead.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

being a product of the public education system, I think I can speak with authority on how bad it is, even at the time, I knew I was being brainwashed, I actually use to skip class and go to the Library..

If you asked a question, especially on the accuracy of something , you either got no answer, or something vague, or that you couldn't discuss it because it wasn't part of the curriculum..your not taught or encourage to think in the public school system..your taught to memorize and unfortuantely alot of the things that you memorize aren't true or is a half true, Its just really sad that people aren't encouraged to think, or ask questions, government is not even taught until the 12th grade and now its considered an elective..so is it any wonder that most people are clueless

America is isolated, from most of the world, , we've become not curious about the rest of the world..Its all about us..and everyone else is an after thought if they are given any consideration at all..so is it any wonder that most Americans don't know whats going on in their own country let alone the rest of the world..we're just not intellectually curious alot of us just don't care!! did you know that a study was done, and alot of American's couldn't even find Canada on the map..didn't know that it was the country above us!!lol sad but true..most Americans don't even know all the names of the states.

ask some Americans about Canada and they think your talking about ginerale soda.!!

Its true about our attitude, we are the greatest Country in the World you eat our dust attitude is going to be the end of us. and its just not true..sure we are one of the stongest miltary powers in the world....but how long is that going to last...its only a matter of time..

I know Canada isn't perfect..but you guys have at least tried to provide your countrymen with medical.(.and I can tell you) haveing some medical care is better then not having none at all no matter how flawed

and its going to be a hard blow to American egos when we can't huff and puff ourselves up...so many Americans wrap themselves up in the flag because yes to some degree they are deluded America isn't as great as we would all love to think or see ourselves unfortuantly its just not true.. I wish it was, but its not!!and when the time comes when the rose colored glasses come off alot of people are going to be sad and angry..

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 2:49 PM

JHARROD

Quote:
Originally posted by LexiBlock:
That's because you are living with your head up your ass, or only watching reality shows all day while stuffing your face.

If you read something else than the funny pages, you'd have read about case after case where people have been abused and violated. Do some googleing if you really want to be enlighented (which of course you wont, better to put your fingers in your ears and hum really loud)

Whoa there fella'. I don't recall insulting you, but it seems that you feel the need to insult my intelligence. To be honest, I spend too much goddamn time working, so I can't go "googling" for news. I read the newspaper, and thats the news that works for me.

And grow up. Next time someone disagrees with you, try not to insult them. ;)

"They tell ya to never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is on occassion hilarious"

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Friday, February 4, 2005 2:55 PM

ANGELHARP42

This is my first post, so be gentle!
We are closer than we may think. Germany's huge war reparations debt tore them apart, resulting in depression, inflation, and general poverty. We are spending literally hundreds of billions of dollars on this war. That is hard to wrap my head around. It bring to mind the amount of surplus we had amassed during Clinton's years. Now we are in debt up to our eyeballs. How are we going to pay for it? The next few years are gonna be tough. I have already felt the crush of the economy. My husband was recently laid off from a crappy factory job he had to take because what are ya gonna do with a Bachelor's in History? Hang it on the wall, next to my Sociology degree. Dust it, perhaps. Le sigh. Well anyway, he lost his crap job THE VERY DAY he was to get benefits and a raise. He now has a crap job at another factory, still no benefits, but at least it's a check. Unemployment is so high here, there is no limit to the number of people lined up to take your job should you be so audacious as to ask for health benefits. My state has also dismantled the state healthcare, which means that my husband, 4 year-old, and I have no chance of getting health care. I sit here and type with blinding pain in my ears because of a ruptured eardrum. My health department can't see me for another week. This is reality. This is what the current administration has done. Public schools are laughable. But add the cost of private school, healthcare, saving for retirement (ha!), etc. There is nothing, less than nothing, left.
That's the economic side. Regarding prisoners just sitting in a jail cell, have you ever heard of Parchman? It's the state penitentiary in Mississippi, where I'm from. It is hellish. It has no walls, where are ya gonna go? It is a labor camp. The prisoners work every day, all day, on farms owned by the government and by private companies. Parchman is the prison that the movie Life is based on. Pretty scary stuff. It's still there, and it still looks the same.
Regarding intellectuals, you DO realize our dear pres was only a C student. And proud of it.
Btw, he didn't win this election. Stolen again. The fact that the absentee military votes were in debate is horrendous. I have friends over there, fighting and dying for a country where their votes aren't even counted. Sickens me. Also, a large portion of the voters HERE were forced to stand in line for ridiculous lengths of time. Making someone stand in line for 8 hours to vote is disenfranchisement. Period.
Canada. Lookin' better and better!

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Saturday, February 5, 2005 5:24 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
I sometimes wonder if we as Americans are living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany, I wonder how the Germans in Germany felt during those horendous times.. did they realize what was happening to their country???

Excellent question, PirateJenny.
Whatreallyhappened.com made a similar comparison here: The Rise of the Fourth Reich
http://whatreallyhappened.com/reich

I love America too. It is because I love America that I do not want to follow unquestioningly under the thrall of patriotism. We Americans are not above the sort of blind obedience the Germans engaged in during the Third Reich. A Yale psychologist (Stanley Milgram) conducted a series of experiments in the 60's/70's called "Obedience," which demonstrated Americans, like Germans (and as it turns out, like people all over the world), tend to do as they are told, even when they are instructed to kill another person. Here is an account of the experiment.
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/milgram_perils_authority_197
4.html

My feeling is, yes it can happen here. We need to be ever vigilant of our leaders and of ourselves that it does not.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Monday, February 7, 2005 4:10 PM

THEMOSTGRACIOUSLOSER

There are those who will be quick to dismiss such a question as the paranoid delusions of a hard-core letfy, but take a read at Patrick Buchanan's 'The American Conservative' Magazine, for an opinion from the right-of-center:

http://amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html

I'm not ready to say we are running headlong in that direction, but, as the author points out, there are some very disturbing tendencies among some segments of the populace and way too many of our leaders (not to mention the chickenshit media).

Humbly Yours,
The Most Gracious Loser
"The Virtuous Life is its own punishment" - TMGL 2001
"Respect the cruller. Tame the doughnut!" - XH 2001
"What's the ugliest part of your body?
... I think it's your MIND" FZ 1968

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Monday, February 7, 2005 6:53 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Most Gracious Loser,

Well written article. Thanks for sharing. It is thought provoking to hear similar concerns coming from varying points on the political spectrum: liberal, libertarian, conservative. Regardless of political ideology, many of us feel it. Something's not right.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Sunday, February 13, 2005 7:21 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

try this :

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1843

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Sunday, February 13, 2005 7:28 AM

Ah yes, Left Wing Propaganda. They don't even try anymore.

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Tuesday, March 8, 2005 9:08 PM

This article was really good the comparisons are so striking they if you subsittuted the word German for Americans they could almost be talking about us

Quote:
The reality was that the German people, as individuals, had lost their courage. The German government preferred it that way as a fearful people are easier to rule than a courageous one. But the German people didn't wish to lose their self-image of courage. So, when confronted with a situation demanding individual courage, in the form of a government gone wrong, the German people simply pretended that the situation did not exist. And in that simple self-deception lay the ruin of an entire nation and the coming of the second World War. .

I think this is the perfect discription of the typical American ..and I think are lack of courage and concern is going to lead us down basically the same road as the Germans

Quote:
When the Reichstag burned down, most Germans simply refused to believe suggestions that the fire had been staged by Hitler himself. They were afraid to. But so trapped were the Germans by their belief in their own bravery that they willed themselves to be blind to the evidence before their eyes, so that they could nod in agreement with Der Fuhrer while still imagining themselves to have courage, even as they avoided the one situation which most required real courage; to stand up to Hitler's lies and deceptions. .

Some people think that the Bush and his administration is directly responssible for 9/11 hard for some to even comtemplate...

Quote:
When Hitler requested temporary extraordinary powers, powers specifically banned under German law, but powers Hitler claimed he needed to have to deal with the "terrorists", the German people, having already sold their souls to their self-delusions, agreed. The temporary powers were conferred, and once conferred lasted until Germany itself was destroyed.

this sounds so familar homeland security, changing of the constitution and the so called terror threat

Quote:
When Hitler staged a phony invasion from Poland, the vast majority of the German people, their own self-image dependant on continuing blindness to Hitler's deceptions, did not question why Poland would have done something so stupid, and found themselves in a war. .

Iraq anyone...wasn't it the Taliban in Afganistan the was suppose to be responssible for 9/11..so why did we go to Iraq

Quote:
But Hitler knew he ruled a nation of cowards, and knew he had to spend the money to make the new war something cowards could fight and win..

yep and Iraq is certainly a war we can win , they have no army...just people rebelling to get the the attackers out of their country!!

Quote:
As I mentioned above, Hitler was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year in 1938. Stalin was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year for 1939 and 1942. Both of these men, and many others also celibrated by the media, were unimaginable monsters. The lesson from these facts is that it isn't easy to spot a genocidal tyrant when you live with one, especially one whom the press supports and promotes...

hmmmm wasn't Bush TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year
the simularities are staggering

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Tuesday, March 8, 2005 10:07 PM

hello angelharp42

I read your post and felt your pain..your concerns are the same as most Americans, lack of health care there is no such thing as job security anymore thats a fact, there is only job mobilty and hopefully if your lucky you have the skills to keep you one step ahead and on the move

your husband probably got laid off from his awful factory job because he was about to get benifits, this is common policy now days most companies will find something to fire you over or lay you off if your due to get benifits

welcome to the brave new world..I think most people feel it even the ones who want to stay delusional who want to stay sealed in their bubble..somehing is not right its not the common not right its something more and some us can't articulate it but we feel it deep down and strong, and truth be told we are probably powerless to stop it. but we can recognize that something is not right and try to brace ourselves and cushion ourself from the blow..the only way we can do it is by being aware and knowing whats coming because pretending that its not happening isn't going to help

Its time to give up the Myth America isn't really a Democracy it never really has been,..this country has always been based on Ecomomy Capitalism...and a Capitalist society always needs a low wage worker or slave labor which is how America got to become so rich in the 1rst place..if it had not been for the New Deal social programs and Unionization of Workers in this Country at the beginning of this 20th century..Capitalism in this country probably wouldn't be here today at the turn of the century things were pretty bad and that was during a time when most Americans didn't live in urban centers and were pretty self sustaining as indiviuals and family units thats no longer the case now with the destruction of social programs we are turning into what America was at the beginning of the century but without the fringe benfits so to speak.. most people don't own their own homes or farms most people live in Urban centers and depend on the state of the economy for their lively hood..slowly but surely alot of us are beginning to feel the lack of humanity in our government system..some of us are feeling it sooner then others but I have no doubt that its going to touch all but the very rich..thats how its set up thats how Capitalism succeeds..the American Dream for most Americans is just that a dream ..the reality for most of us is being drones and if where lucky making it to the middle class..( middle class breeds contentment ) which is fast on its way to becoming exstinct..soon there will be only the poor and the rich..and thats when even Capitalism will come to an end. Inorder for Capitalism to succeed people have to have money to consume the poorer people become the less money they will have to spend to buy goods companies will go out of business as a result and we will be something else..facist America??? Slaves ..a Militarized society...all 3 wrapped into one.

its an old story..really but its a new one for most of us..try and be brave and face the new world thats coming our way!!

thanks for letting me wax based on whats happening in our country this the only outcome that I can see!!

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Wednesday, March 9, 2005 4:19 AM

KENADAK

5 bush hate-speech posts in an hour... You are a busy little hate monger...

I don't agree with bush on a lot of levels...
I do agree with his economic policy.

being a small business owner (read NOT BIG BUSINESS) I feel his actions make my company more viable and in turn more capable to hire "you poor common folk"

please understand that America is based on a constitutional republic: The government is based on rules set forth by the founding fathers. Your Socialized medical, Socialized retirement, and Socialized society is not in our constitution.

and those stating the America is not the greatest country in the world. Please inform me which one is... I want to live there!

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Wednesday, March 9, 2005 6:22 AM

CHRISISALL

Piratejenny, you talk a lot of dark, mean stuff. Be more like some of the others who feel no need to understand facts or history or junk like that.
Seriously, though.I remember bullies in junior high, sometimes they beat up a jerk who deserved it, but more often they beat up someone weaker to take thier lunch money.My point is that it starts small.And people in this country concentrate on big things...the destruction of the World Trade center...the capture of Saddam...and they don't see the cold hungy child wondering why it's parents are gone (and why should they? It's not thier fault!). Truth can be unsettling; it's better to be simple-minded.
On a lighter note, quotes from movies and tv for the people who need entertainment with thier illumination:
"Im here to fight for truth, justice and the American way." " you'll end up fighting every elected official in this country." -SUPERMAN
"The only thing that counts in the end is power. Naked merciless force!" -BENETH THE PLANET OF THE APES
"Fear will keep the local systems in line..." -STAR WARS
"Now America's just another broke ex-superpower, lookin' for a handout and wondering why." -DARK ANGEL
"Governments are just for gettin' in a mans' way." -FIREFLY

My heart goes out to Angelharp42. Thanks to her for making it real.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 9, 2005 1:02 PM

My German wife states that although there isn't an exact match between Nazi Germany and the US today, there are enough parallels to be very frightened and concerned.

So, instead of dismissing such claims, you guys should really start accepting the possibility that these ideas are correct and looking into how correct they are. NOTE: The world isn't black and white, so don't expect every answer to be like that. Shades of grey people.

Please note that just because someone says the US today is like Nazi Germany, doesn't mean that they are stated it is exactly the same. It just means that there are enough similarities to warrent concern that the US today is headed in the same direction with potentially similar outcomes.

Given the above, it is actually quite difficult (I'll go as far to say impossible) to make a case that such things aren't going on now. I cite history as my proof.

Now it's just up to you guys to do something about it before something really bad happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenadak:

and those stating the America is not the greatest country in the world. Please inform me which one is... I want to live there!

Although "best" is something that is subjective, there are many markers that people look to for being "best" when considering the "best" country. ie poverty, quality of education, etc. NOTE: These are things that the US doesn't do well in.

If you look to the UN for there studies on the "best" country to live in, that would be (from memory) Finnland. But in fact all Scandinavian countries did very well.

Also, the only reason why the US ranked at all in these studies is because of all the tech companies in (basically) California. So, it has a high level of inovation in that industry. Take that away and the US plummets down the list.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, March 9, 2005 3:18 PM

If we are living in a fascist state, then show me evidence of it. I'm very easy to convince of just about anything, if you have conclusive evidence or at least evidence.

So far, I've not seen anything but rants about how much Conservatives don't agree with Postmodern Liberals. Contrary to what some Liberals seems to think, this does not make us a fascist state.

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Wednesday, March 9, 2005 5:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

If we are living in a fascist state, then show me evidence of it. I'm very easy to convince of just about anything, if you have conclusive evidence or at least evidence.

You should really learn to read posts.

I'll quote myself:
"although there isn't an exact match between Nazi Germany and the US today, there are enough parallels to be very frightened and concerned."
and:
"NOTE: The world isn't black and white, so don't expect every answer to be likethat. Shades of grey people."
and:
"enough similarities to warrent concern that the US today is headed in the same direction with potentially similar outcomes."

So, I never actually stated that you are currently living in a fascist state. I said that your society is headed in that direction and there is clear evidence for it.

Again, the society you live in is definitly headed in that direction and is closing in on the mark. The parallels to Nazi Germany are frightening if you would actually pay attention.

There are several points here. Dispite the title, give the content a chance.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/01/26/hs
orensen.DTL

Also, I don't have the time to look it up, but I remember reports that the US was building a prison for the suspected terrorists. They would be sent there until they were dealt with. But since they are terrorists they could sit there for the rest of there lives without due process. Can we say modern day Goolog?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, March 9, 2005 7:21 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Just a quick post for all of you who think the government is only watching terrorists:
http://www.matrix-at.org/ Project — a pilot effort to increase and enhance the exchange of sensitive terrorism and other criminal activity information between local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies

And what is the harm? At the very least, large databases are a gold-mine for criminals:
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2005/03/09/data/index.html
U.S. citizens' data possibly compromised
March 9, 2005 | New York -- Hackers commandeered a database owned by information industry giant Lexis Nexis, gaining access to the personal files of as many as 32,000 people, company officials said Wednesday.(Lexis Nexis bought up Seisint, which is the company that created the MATRIX database.)

But it goes even further: rather than being passive and waiting for people to hire its capabilities, Seisint made up a data base of 120,000 people that IT profiled as potential terrorists, and turned the list over to the government. Nearly everybody on the list was not, is not, and never will be a terrorist. But the government investigated people on the list, and there is no guarantee the list was ever discarded. http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,63535,00.html?tw=wn_2polihea
d%22

Quote:
Before helping to launch the criminal information project known as Matrix, a database contractor gave U.S. and Florida authorities the names of 120,000 people who showed a statistical likelihood of being terrorists — sparking some investigations and arrests.

These 120,000 people are now under suspicion just because they were winnowed out of a database.

If the actual keeping publicly available data is not an invasion of privacy, the free-lance searching in the absence of a crime was: there was no 'reasonable suspicion'. Are you willing to give up 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'freedom from unreasonable search and seizure?'

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Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, I never actually stated that you are currently living in a fascist state. I said that your society is headed in that direction and there is clear evidence for it.

Once again, I’ve seen no such evidence. Just wild speculation and things people conveniently have no time to look up. I really think it is despicable to bandy the Nazi memory around for political gain. Nazi Germany was an atrocity of mankind, and some Liberals are either ignorant of what Nazi Germany really was or they don’t care. I think it’s an insulting display of morose, tactless ignorance to make these kinds of unfounded accusations.

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Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Nazi Germany was an atrocity of mankind, and some Liberals are either ignorant of what Nazi Germany really was or they don’t care. I think it’s an insulting display of morose, tactless ignorance to make these kinds of unfounded accusations.

< sarsasm >
Yah Finn, it's absolutly terrible that those Germans that learn all about Nazi Germany so that it'll never happen again are making comparisons.

Perhaps you should go over there to set the record straight on what happened in there history, because clearly you have knowledge that they don't.
< /sarcasm >

If you would actually open your mind and stop being so opinionated perhaps you'd learn something. Read the link I gave and the link off that. Read Rue's post and his links.

But perhaps you don't want to give into facts because it create a breeze across that house of cards that is your delusion.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:13 AM

SOUPCATCHER

Lots of words flying back and forth today.

Just a quick nitpick on your pronouns, SigmaNunki (and Rue will correct me if I'm wrong). I think it should read, "Read Rue's post and her links."

I've avoided posting in this thread mostly because of the title (I've been periodically reading the entries) but I figured I might as well wade in during the few minutes I'm here.

Do I think the US is a modern day fascist state? Nope. Is the potential there? Absolutely. Any democracy has the potential to become a fascist state. Are we heading in that direction? I'm not sure but I'm worried. Some of the elements of fascism are corporatism, nationalism, and anti-liberalism - all of which are present to some degree in the US. However, fascism in the US would look completely different than German or Italian fascism because of the nationalistic component. In other words, extremely context dependent.

Side note. If I genuinely thought the US was already a fascist state I would not be proudly trumpeting my liberalism on a message board. Since I have identified myself as such on a couple of occasions, I must not be too worried.

Additional side note. I finally got around to reading David Neiwert's thought provoking essay, "The Rise of Pseudo Fascism" (which won a Koufax for best series of 2004 - for those of you who don't know what a Koufax is, you might not get much out of the essay). I would recommend it to anyone on the left side of the political spectrum. You can find links to the essay in either pdf or html in the sidebar of David's blog, Orcinus ( http://dneiwert.blogspot.com). I especially appreciated Chapter 2, which I'm sure has influenced the way I think about fascism in general.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:13 AM

Quote:
. 5 bush hate-speech posts in an hour... You are a busy little hate monger...

1rst off lets get one thing straight if nothing else..I don't hate period...I don't hate anyone not even Bush...I'll say it again..Bush and his corrupt administration scare me..

Quote:
. I don't agree with bush on a lot of levels...
I do agree with his economic policy. ...

I'm curious can you elaborate on the economic policy you agree with so much

Quote:
. being a small business owner (read NOT BIG BUSINESS) I feel his actions make my company more viable and in turn more capable to hire "you poor common folk"...

what kind of business do you own, as a small Business owner you are going to be the 1rst to be effected by Bush's economic plan..you won't be able to hire poor Common folk, probably will have to lay them off and I hope you have some money saved up because you are going to need it!!

Quote:
. please understand that America is based on a constitutional republic: The government is based on rules set forth by the founding fathers. Your Socialized medical, Socialized retirement, and Socialized society is not in our constitution. .

yep America is a Republic, but wake up , we are not living in the America of our founding fathers, we are not living in the America where most people were self sustaining and living on farms or living in interdependent communities that relied on eachother..and again think about how America accumulated much of its wealth..through a free labor system slavery

the America of today most people live in Urban centers and their lively hood is dependent on economics, the majority of people are not self sustaining... without alot of these social programs what kind of lives would most people have?? the obvious answer is slave labor ..these social programs have managed to keep America thriving

Quote:
. and those stating the America is not the greatest country in the world. Please inform me which one is... I want to live there..

well its true America isn't the greatest country in the world...its certainly not the worst and America has the potential to be a great country

but right now I could name some countries that are are better then America ..Sweeden...the Netherlands..are they perfect no ...no country is we can defintely do better!!

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:23 AM

Quote:
If we are living in a fascist state, then show me evidence of it. I'm very easy to convince of just about anything, if you have conclusive evidence or at least evidence.

nobody is saying that we are living in a facist state...

what we are saying is that, there are things happening in this country right now that is leading to Facism ...that is the road that we are traveling on if something isn't done to change it

you talk about Liberals and Conservatives as if that somehow sums up everything forget the labels, because whats happening is so beyond that.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn- just so we are clear on what Fascism is, why don't you tell us? Please be specific. Give examples, assume that we don't know what you mean. Nothin bolixes up a conversaiton more than people meaning different things when using the same words.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Soup- Re my previous post, most ppl don't understand that state-enforced corporatism is an essential component of fascism. They seem to think it's related to killing Jews. Hey, I don't see Jews in concentration camps- do you??? Must not be fascism!

A lot of people who think they are libertarians are actually nascent fascists because of their love affair with corporations. A fascinating metamorphosis occurs when state power- the anathema of libertarianism- is directed to the care, feeding and protection of corporations... then suddenly, all reservations about the use of state power disappear. True libertarians would be up in arms (metaphorically speaking) about the growth of the Federal government under Bush, and its increasing intrusion into our pesonal lives.

As far as the willingness of the government to round up people en masse... perhaps you've heard of the ankle-bracelet program for ALL immigrants of undetermined status? These are NOT "illegal immigrants", but people who have gone through the system whose status is being determined or is on appeal... The program is such thay they have to be at home every day between 6PM and 6AM, and report twice a week in person to (in essence) a parole officer. Basically, they are under "house arrest". The reason for the program is because the immigration files are such a mess that they can't reliably re-contact a large portion of their caseload because they can't find phone numbers and addresses! The program is being tested on a few hundred, if "successful" it will apply to over 12,000 people. Now, remember, these are NOT "illegal immigrants", but people who have applied through the system, who live and work here, people who have not been convicted or even accused of ANY crime... just people that the government is apparently too disorganized to keep track of by ordinary means (like keeping a phone number on file).

Don't forget that before the Nazis rounded up the Jews, they rounded up Gypsies.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 5:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
what we are saying is that, there are things happening in this country right now that is leading to Facism ...that is the road that we are traveling on if something isn't done to change it

you talk about Liberals and Conservatives as if that somehow sums up everything forget the labels, because whats happening is so beyond that.

You’re going to have to do better then that. Because what I see in most of the posts in this thread drawing the fascism comparison is not fascism, but Postmodern Liberalism.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- just so we are clear on what Fascism is, why don't you tell us? Please be specific. Give examples, assume that we don't know what you mean. Nothin bolixes up a conversaiton more than people meaning different things when using the same words.

Fascism: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fascism

I don’t deny that it could happen here; it could happen anywhere. But that notion alone is not enough to support the idea that it is happening. However, this isn’t really a hypothetical discussion of what could happen, but rather an anti-Bush screed, in most cases. It seems that anytime Liberals disagree with someone, sooner or later some of them will come up with accusations of Fascism, generally based on some whimsical hypothetical or rhetorical stunt. Liberals made similar kinds of accusations during Reagan’s Presidency, however, interesting enough, the evil specter of Fascism didn’t seem to reappear until W, oddly bypassing Clinton.

Nazi Germany was decidedly socialist, and Hitler would have had more in common, both politically and economically, with Stalin then with Reagan or Bush. In fact, fascists opposed what they called liberals, and by ‘liberals’ they weren’t talking about Postmodern Liberals, but rather people who supported laissez-faire, or a free-market economy. Today one who supports a free-market economy is far more likely to be a Conservative, then a Postmodern Liberal. Both Hitler and Mussolini portrayed themselves as champions of the working class. If one were going to draw reckless comparisons, one could just as easily, if not more so, claim that American Democratic Party is heading towards Fascism. Of course that comparison wouldn’t sit well with most Postmodern Liberal ideologues, would it? Yet one can make it, although perhaps not genuinely.

However, I would be reticent to do so, because as I’ve stated in another discussion on this board, one encounters an error due to discrete quantization in such comparisons. That is that just because one can find that some of the tenets of a certain philosophy correlate with some of the tenets of another, does not mean the two are similar, since agreeing with something can be quite different then agreeing with something to some degree.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:27 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

"In fact, fascists opposed what they called liberals, and by ‘liberals’ they weren’t talking about Postmodern Liberals, but rather people who supported laissez-faire, or a free-market economy."

??????

Finn- perhaps a history refresher would do you some good? In addition to rounding up Gypsies, the Nazis also rounded up Communists and Socialists. They also made slave labor available to their favorite corporations.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- perhaps a history refresher would do you some good? In addition to rounding up Gypsies, the Nazis also rounded up Communists and Socialists. They also made slave labor available to their favorite corporations.

What does that prove? The Nazis turned on the Italians too, their supposed allies. So what? I didn’t say there was honor among Fascists. Communism was the biggest rival of fascism. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t agreement on many things, and one area that they did agree on was on the issue of the bourgeois. Ultimately, both Fascists and communists were anti-capitalists. They held themselves out to be the savior of the working class. Marx called it the Proletariat, Nazis called it the Volksgemeinschaf, but it was all socialism.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

What does that prove? The Nazis turned on the Italians too, their supposed allies. So what? I didn’t say there was honor among Fascists. Communism was the biggest rival of fascism. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t agreement on many things, and one area that they did agree on was on the issue of the bourgeois. Ultimately, both Fascists and communists were anti-capitalists. They held themselves out to be the savior of the working class. Marx called it the Proletariat, Nazis called it the Volksgemeinschaf, but it was all socialism.

Ok, a translation from my wife:
Proletariat - working class/lower social class/little education. Somewhere along those lines. Please keep in mind that Marx used it as a scientific term in his theories.

Volksgemeinschaf (proper spelling "Volksgemeinschaft") - The community of the people, but with a special emphasis on German/Arian including all of the people (NOTE: not just the Proletariat).

Thus you are comparing apples and oranges. You are throwing terms around without proper understanding of there meaning.

There's a good reason why there are different names for these different theories of society. Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism. All these are very different from Nazism, which although had Socialism in its name, was far from Socialism.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:12 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I don't think Finn understands the distinctions. The fascists actually courted and supported the non-Jewish burgeoise no matter that they presented themselves as a friend of the common person. It's not the first time that a power group presented itself one way but did the opposite. Rather than focusing on what power groups say about themselves, we might want to look at what they did and how the negative and positive effects were distributed.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:41 PM

It seems that its hard for some to wrap their brains around America on its way to being Facist because its not happening exactly like Nazi Germany...

history can repeat itself but that its not going to happen the exact same way

I and most people only use Germany as a comparison not as an exact model of whats happening in America..the times and the circumstances and the country as a whole are diffrent is Bush Hilter of course not...

I'm wondering what its going to take before people see the signs..there are alot of diffrent things happening all over... right now in California they are trying to pass laws to take away so many workers rights

one only has to look at the prison industrial complex to see that its becoming slave labor, you've got corporations privatizing prisons, but nobody cares because they are crimnals..it hasn't dawned on people that laws might be passed to make sure these corporations have a steady stream of slave labor, no jobs leads to crime

This new bankruptcy law that they are trying to pass is a direct result of credit Card companies being one of Bush's biggest supporters

Under the homeland security act the federal government has more power and control over our lives..then ever before

and there is so much more going on
maybe if you looked at these issues seperately, they wouldn't seem so bad but they are adding up daily every month its something new..you start looking at all of this stuff together and seeing how each one is a peice of the puzzle the picture starts to become more clear!!

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
There's a good reason why there are different names for these different theories of society. Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism. All these are very different from Nazism, which although had Socialism in its name, was far from Socialism.

This is classic. It’s pure doublethink. Vizzini tells me that “there’s a good reason why there are different name for these different theories of society.” But then when he gets to Nazism, that is National Socialism, all of the sudden, those “good reasons” disappear.

One naturally doesn’t wish to believe that this is the only logic he is using, but it is. Maybe you’re right Vizzini, maybe there really is a good reason why Nazism is called National Socialism. Possibly because it’s a kind of socialism? Oh no, that entirely logical deduction doesn’t support your insane ranting; it can’t possibly be true. INCONCEIVABLE!!!!!

You’re a source unending amusement. And that’s a good thing.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't think Finn understands the distinctions. The fascists actually courted and supported the non-Jewish burgeoise no matter that they presented themselves as a friend of the common person. It's not the first time that a power group presented itself one way but did the opposite. Rather than focusing on what power groups say about themselves, we might want to look at what they did and how the negative and positive effects were distributed.

I understand the distinction. Perhaps not as well as Vizzini’s wife, because my German’s not very good, but I never claimed they were exactly the same thing.

How the effects are distributed makes little difference on how Socialism is defined. Socialism is what it is, negative or positive effects, notwithstanding. And what a group says about its philosophies goes a long way to describing those philosophies, and without a doubt, both Mussolini and Hitler described themselves in very Socialist terms. No Surprise for Mussolini, he was a communist after all. Hitler was probably more an opportunist, but like many dictators I’m sure Hitler realized the benefit to government control of the economy.

As far as what they actually did, well both Hitler and Mussolini were good for their Left-wing Socialist rhetoric. Like Communist Russia Hitler abolished Unions and replaced them with state-run labor organizations, hunted down and exterminated rival Leftists, and waged war against small businesses while reigning in the bigger businesses with heavy government regulation culminating in an economy centralized on Hitler’s Nazi party. The major distinction between Nazism and Bolshevism was that corporations would be privately owned, but still heavily regulated. Both Hitler and Mussolini were right little Left-wing revolutionaries including nationalization of education, healthcare and transportation. Under the Nazi regime and Communist regime of East Germany, Germany had a government run social welfare system.

Sure, Nazi Germany could have been more Left-wing if they had instituted a government ownership of land and capital, making them basically a Communism. But just because Fascism may have been to the right of Communism doesn’t mean it was to the right of everything else.

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:58 PM

You have some right things in there and some wrong things in there. But to tear your arguments apart would require time that I don't have.

But to be certain your name calling (although I'm not sure how Vizzini is, but you seem to be using it as such) just tells of your level.

But, you seem to always change what you are arugueing for. Could you state your arguments in a few paragraphs so that we can all know what the hell you are trying to say.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:13 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But to be certain your name calling (although I'm not sure how Vizzini is, but you seem to be using it as such) just tells of your level.

Finn's being hip with his pop culture references. Vizzini was a character in The Princess Bride who thought himself smarter than he actually was. I guess it's a more civil attack than calling someone a traitor or a Saddam lover or a feminazi. It's kind of like the difference between what you would hear on NPR versus more of a Limbaugh type show.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 9:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I don't think Finn understands the distinctions.

I concurr.

I also don't think that he is aware that people can call themselves one thing and behave in a completely different way.

The Nazi's may have put socialist in there name, but naming yourself that doesn't a socialist one make. Behaviour is what does that, and if one looks at the history books, the Nazi's were everything but.

EDIT: By the way, just thought you might get a kick out of this. From theWife Finns spelling of Volksgemeinschaf (which is wrong) would translate to (if it was a word) "community evil sheep."

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, March 11, 2005 9:39 AM