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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

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Because the Chinese government does not feel any obligation to provide employment for the American working class? Or maybe American Business does not feel any obligation to hire the American working class?

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

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Do you mean that you want Obama to create new rules for business? Are you demanding that American Business loss its basic freedom and be forced to do as Obama wants it to? You might call the new rules an incentive to hire Americans, but that doesn't sound very Republican! It sounds like Communism!

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Are you clueless about Business? There is no need to remove freedoms, as you Democraps and other Libtards constantly strive for. Please review the concepts of tariffs, taxes, taxation of imported goods, and the like. Appropriate tariffs and fees can help balance the incentives provided to business when they are balancing their profit sheets.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

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Because the Chinese government does not feel any obligation to provide employment for the American working class? Or maybe American Business does not feel any obligation to hire the American working class?

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Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Where are Trump's line of shitty clothes made?

He hates America so much he won't even manufacture his own dogshit clothes line here. That should tell you all you need to know about The Donald and his "patriotism." He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line.

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Originally posted by G:

BTW Second. You could prove that Trump is a complete pile o' sh*t 100 more times and some of these people still won't believe you. They don't want to. It's a Personality Cult thing - they be hypno-tized. Or Soviet stooges. Their dumb sh*ttery is impenetrable. It's a force of dark nature, like something from the Marvel universe.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Apparently this thread about jobs in China for American products and the trade and tariff laws enacted by current and prior administrations has been hijacked because it is all the fault of Trump - who has never held public office.

Denial, much?
Reality impaired?

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It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.

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I thought it was the cheap labor, the significant savings in comparable wages to America, or other countries.
But they are making fully automated production lines - so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.

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"That IS generally the point of tariffs" she said dryly.

If the price of imported goods is raised, it makes internal manufacturing more competitive. That's kind of the point. The idea that we would get "cheaper goods" is what convinced Americans into a Faustian bargain with international businesses. But "who knew" that would boomerang back on US manufacturing jobs? (Who knew, indeed? I think many people did.)

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The USA has already imposed a 600% tariff on Chinese cold-rolled steel. So??

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If the goal is to re-industrialize the USA, tariffs are an integral part of that effort, there's no avoiding that concept.

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The duties are set at 265.79% for Chinese steelmakers.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Originally posted by second:
It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.

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"That IS generally the point of tarrifs" she said dryly.

If the price of imported goods is raised, it makes internal manufacturing more competitive. That's kind of the point. The idea that we would get "cheaper goods" is what convinced Americans into a Faustian bargain with international businesses. But "who knew" that would boomerang back on US manufacturing jobs? (Who knew, indeed? I think many people did.)

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Originally posted by JewelStaiteFan:
I thought it was the cheap labor, the significant savings in comparable wages to America, or other countries.
But they are making fully automated production lines - so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

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To the original point of the thread: With the advent of widespread automation, what's the point of jobs ANYWHERE??? Its' not like automation and unemployment stop at the Chinese border.

Answer your own question. I think you'll be confounded by the result.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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The duties are set at 265.79% for Chinese steelmakers.

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U.S. hikes duties on Chinese steel to more than 500%
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/18/news/us-steel-china-trade/

The increase in prices that you're bitching about is the cost of paying American wages. Are you saying you don't want to increase American wages?

Besides, its inevitable that you'll wind up paying more anyway. When the United States can no longer manufacture anything, your wages will fall relative to the cost of imports.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.

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"That IS generally the point of tarrifs" she said dryly.

If the price of imported goods is raised, it makes internal manufacturing more competitive. That's kind of the point. The idea that we would get "cheaper goods" is what convinced Americans into a Faustian bargain with international businesses. But "who knew" that would boomerang back on US manufacturing jobs? (Who knew, indeed? I think many people did.)

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Thank you for your attempts to simplify the explanation.

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Originally posted by JewelStaiteFan:
I thought it was the cheap labor, the significant savings in comparable wages to America, or other countries.
But they are making fully automated production lines - so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

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To the original point of the thread: With the advent of widespread automation, what's the point of jobs ANYWHERE??? Its' not like automation and unemployment stop at the Chinese border.

Answer your own question. I think you'll be confounded by the result.

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The advancement of automation is largely engineered by advanced countries. The nomads and sheiks of Iran and the rice farmers of China are not designing the automation equipment. It could make sense to have these automated systems installed closer to where they are made and designed, and more easily repaired by those who are not farming rice all day.
Give a man a fish, you've fed him a meal. Teach him how to fish, you've fed him for a lifetime. Once he has learned how to fish, should he give away all his fish to people who don't want to fish? Or to the person who taught him how to fish? To the point he has no fish to feed himself or his family, and he has no ability or power to ask for some fish to eat?

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

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Because the Chinese government does not feel any obligation to provide employment for the American working class? Or maybe American Business does not feel any obligation to hire the American working class?

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Where are Trump's line of shitty clothes made?

He hates America so much he won't even manufacture his own dogshit clothes line here. That should tell you all you need to know about The Donald and his "patriotism." He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line.

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

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Do you mean that you want Obama to create new rules for business? Are you demanding that American Business loss its basic freedom and be forced to do as Obama wants it to? You might call the new rules an incentive to hire Americans, but that doesn't sound very Republican! It sounds like Communism!

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

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Do you mean that you want Obama to create new rules for business? Are you demanding that American Business loss its basic freedom and be forced to do as Obama wants it to? You might call the new rules an incentive to hire Americans, but that doesn't sound very Republican! It sounds like Communism!

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Are you clueless about Business? There is no need to remove freedoms, as you Democraps and other Libtards constantly strive for. Please review the concepts of tariffs, taxes, taxation of imported goods, and the like. Appropriate tariffs and fees can help balance the incentives provided to business when they are balancing their profit sheets.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Where are Trump's line of shitty clothes made?

He hates America so much he won't even manufacture his own dogshit clothes line here. That should tell you all you need to know about The Donald and his "patriotism." He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line.

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I should have noticed that the tariff idea was a Trump idea three months ago.

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-trade-idUSKCN0WQ0WG
Donald Trump's threats to slap steep tariffs on Chinese and Mexican imports may have won him votes in Republican primaries but they would likely backfire, severely disrupting U.S. manufacturers that increasingly depend on global supply chains.

The Republican presidential front-runner's campaign pledges to impose 45 percent tariffs on all imports from China and 35 percent on many goods from Mexico would spark financial market turmoil and possibly even a recession, former trade negotiators, trade lawyers, economists and business executives told Reuters.

"I don't mind trade wars when we're losing $58 billion a year," Trump said in a Feb. 25 debate, referring to the 2015 U.S. goods trade deficit with Mexico. Economists dispute the idea the United States is "losing" money as the trade deficit is simply the difference between what the United States imports and what it exports to a country.

Among those hardest hit would be the U.S. auto industry, which has fully integrated Mexico into its production network. Some $118 billion worth of vehicles and parts flowed north and south across the border tariff-free last year, according to U.S. Commerce Department data.

A 35 percent tariff would raise costs for Ford Motor Co's U.S.-assembled F-series and medium-duty pickup trucks that use Mexican-made diesel engines, one of its most profitable vehicle lines.

Ford CEO Mark Fields on Wednesday defended the company's investment strategy, which includes $9 billion for U.S. plants over the next four years, saying, "We will do what makes sense for the business." Not what makes sense for Trump.

Once President Trump gets started on raising tariffs, he should not stop until the unemployment rate is ZERO for working class Americans. At the moment it is 5%. Just because prices will rise faster than a rocketship with the new Trump tariffs is no reason not to go for ZERO!
www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by G:

BTW Second. You could prove that Trump is a complete pile o' sh*t 100 more times and some of these people still won't believe you. They don't want to. It's a Personality Cult thing - they be hypno-tized. Or Soviet stooges. Their dumb sh*ttery is impenetrable. It's a force of dark nature, like something from the Marvel universe.

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I don't think Trump's support by Republicans has any connection to a Trump cult.

Trump is not loved so much as Hillary is hated. Not too long ago, Jayne (Adam Baldwin) https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/ hated Trump and equated him with Hillary, even going so far as to post a picture of Trump morphed into Hillary. Now Trump is Jayne’s candidate. If Trump loses the general election, Jayne will pretend he never liked Trump because Trump wasn’t truly a Republican.

I’ve seen the same dynamic with my Texan neighbors. Senator Ted Cruz was their man, Trump was no Republican. He was evil, but once Trump won, all loyalties switched to Trump. There was some bitterness toward Trump and yet Hillary has to be stopped. Nixon, Bush and Bush Jr? My neighbors can’t acknowledge that those Presidents had anything to do with what a Real Republican is. The same will happen to Trump, whether he wins or loses. The average Texas Republican is treacherous, not loyal. Their party is held together by shared hatred of Hillary.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Do you suppose you could actually address a topic - any topic at all - with facts and logic, and avoid the personal attacks, sgg?

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The USA has already imposed a 600% tariff on Chinese cold-rolled steel. So??

----

If the goal is to re-industrialize the USA, tariffs are an integral part of that effort, there's no avoiding that concept.

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The duties are set at 265.79% for Chinese steelmakers. Buying cheap steel from China has a bigger effect than lost wages of American steelmakers. FAR, FAR MORE IMPORTANT IS WHEN CHINA STOPS SELLING STEEL ONCE AMERICA IS DEPENDENT ON CHINA.

Then there is the minor fact that China agreed not to dump steel. The 265.79% duties are a reminder to China that it broke its word.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line."

And you think Hillary cares more? After all she flogged every job-destroying 'free trade' agreement that came along. She didn't just destroy US jobs in one business, she destroyed jobs in entire US industries.

But what the heck! Who cares about shit like that?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Do you suppose you could actually address a topic - any topic at all - with facts and logic, and avoid the personal attacks, sgg?

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Apparently this thread about jobs in China for American products and the trade and tariff laws enacted by current and prior administrations has been hijacked because it is all the fault of Trump - who has never held public office.

Denial, much?
Reality impaired?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/nafta-at-20-one-million-u_b
_4550207.html

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, first of all, I generally don't look at "unemployment" rates because those are subject to the "discouraged worker" phenomenon. As far as manufacturing jobs, the manufacturing sector has clearly decreased since about 2000, the Fed reading the tea leaves is irrelevant.

The real question is "What's the point of jobs ANYWHERE"? I'd rather engage JSF on this first, if possible.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
second

Do you believe the data and the factors behind it from your cite are still relevant today - when manufacturing employment and output have undeniably fallen over multiple decades?

But the fall of US manufacturing can't be explained away, no matter how many quibbles you throw at it.

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. . . manufacturing jobs as a percentage of private employment has fallen by half—from about 21 percent in 1987 to less than 11 percent today. Yet, manufacturing output as a percentage of private output has followed a steady trend of about 14 percent over the same period. Producing the same share of output with a declining share of the workforce reflects the rising productivity of employees in manufacturing firms who have become more efficient by getting better training and by working with better equipment and software.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

Apparently you don't know the meaning of linear regression, which means you don't know what correlation means, graphically speaking.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

Also, btw, you can't account for the lack of MANUFACTURING jobs by pointing to farming. Farming is NOT manufacturing, by definition. The lack of MANUFACTURING jobs is limited to MANUFACTURING. Funny how that works.
. . .

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
. . .
But if you're not going to bother reading my posts when I go to great lengths to bring facts to the board, then you're no better than THE THREESTOOGES.

In which case - goodbye.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

. . . if the US didn't import cars or trucks, there would have been an extra 2404k auto manufacturing jobs instead, in other words, an additional 2.4 million jobs in the automotive industry alone.

I think it's pretty clear: when goods are imported, those manufacturing jobs are lost from the importing country.

Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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