To those of us who just sold your country down the river... by Clandestiny

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

To those of us who just sold your country down the river...

POSTED BY: CLANDESTINY
UPDATED: Sunday, November 7, 2004 09:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 14712
PAGE 2 of 2

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:16 PM

I tend not to post too much because most people say what I would say myself. But, this mudslinging between people on this post is too much to pass up.

"Ding" the rounds over.
Lets all take a step back and calm down people. Some are taking the posts personal, retorting with posts agianst the person. If we are going to have this post, Like Gruesome said, lets keep it civil and focus on the actual points. Throwing out posts about who is acting like a child and what not are just gonna waste time. I mean it took me over 45 min to read all these(i could be a slow reader though) and maybe 6-10 actually were on topic.

But, thats just my oppinion feel free to blow me out of the water with snide comments and witty retorts.

Anyways...I'm 18 and im scared shitless(please excuse the language) that someday soon im gonna have to shoot a gun at someone. Personally i have been avoiding the political scene and all the information and misinformation that has been flying out of that area for a bit. So if you guys could do me a favor and fill me in i would be most appreciative. The main question i had is whats happing in afghanistan. I don't think i have heard of a whole lot coming out of there for a bit. I mean every couple days there some new bombing going on in Iraq. But, it seems the media powers are being a bit tight lipped about stuff going on in afghanistan. I mean considering that the 9/11 started there with a guy named Osama im just curious as to whats happening there. It was pretty smooth how that seemed to disappear in light of Iraq....

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Wednesday, November 3, 2004 11:41 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Looks liek faux news helped out

http://www.moveon.org/foxad-QT.html

Quote:
...

Next one...2008
Be ready for Cheney ( Mr Apartheid ) as president
and the little hispanic dictator George Prescott Bush as VP
The Bush dynasty will continue....

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:30 AM

CLANDESTINY

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
Hey, high horse! Illinois resident here... how did YOUR state deliver?

My state is New York. Enough said.

Quote:
No thanks necessary though, your apparent scorn is all I need for motivation to help you.

You accuse me of riding the high horse?

Oh, kettle, thou art black.

As for the rest of this discussion, I've forgotten one of the rules I've always tried to live by, which is:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:33 AM

CLANDESTINY

Quote:
Originally posted by firefloozysuzie:
Clandestiny, I'm with you.

And I too am very, very worried.

Well, it's going to be a long four years.
I'd better get some sleep while I can.

Hiya, Suzie. Long time no. Thanks for the support. We "raving lunatics" will have to stick together very closely in the next four years...

-----------------------------
"Take my love, take my land, take my wife -- please." -- Henny Youngman performs the Firefly Theme.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 1:36 AM

BOYD

As an american/kiwi expat overseas I am the one who has to put up with the shit from our current "aggressive" administration.

While you all drive around in your SUVs bitching about the Red Soxs I have to hear people belittle and tear down my favorite (note the lack of an U!) country. As a tree hugging liberal I am seeing all my rights and yours disappearing around us. Fundemental (in my humble opion anyway) rights such as the right to a have an abortion or the union of two people in love (gay or not) are being challenged. We are destroying ourselves and that "freedom" of which we are so proud of. America is no longer the land of the free it is the land of the "facist oil tycoons raping our country and the world to line their pockets". I came up with that one myself!

The "war on terror" is so very cheesy and fake even from here. The reason terroists bomb the crap out of the US is not becuase they dislike our freedom (i mean cmon who dislikes freedom?) its becuase our administration keeps attacking targets to benefit from them economically. Wake up and smell the air. The world is now less safe, people are less trusting, and the world in general chaos.

The damage done to Americas ties to the world, the American people (even though you arent feeling it just yet but you will :)) and the economy as a whole will take many decades to fix if they can be at all.

So as horrible as it sounds I hope the bush and his administration is "cut short", or maybe a civil war starts betwene the N and the S again :( or maybe Bush is impeached for thirty two counts of treason (or something)

I am not trying to insult anyone on this board. Thanks for listening to hear my rant.

Cheers,
Boyd

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 1:36 AM

NEUTRINOLAD

Quote:
There is a certain... Smugness... that many on the left seem to have. As if they "get it" and those on the right do not.

I do notice this in the left. Those on the left tend to assume I don't understand what they are saying, rather than admitting the possibility that I do understand, and I find an insurmountable flaw in their argument.
I also notice this on the right, which frequently takes the form of my being wrong because their faith instructs them that I am wrong, or some such circular argument based upon an essentially emotional appeal.
And both sides assume they possess exactly one half of the total possible viewpoints.
Yippee.
I give up.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 2:57 AM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

It's not "bile," Gruesome. It's outrage and sadness and despair. It's not the "difference of opinion." It's the appalling dismissal of FACTS.

What you are misreading as "hatred" is the genuine
anguish and frustration of REAL patriots who
are watching America being dismantled
and subverted by a handful of extremists.

This election proved that it isn't that
difficult to fool 52% of the people.
Folks believe that "the Left" are Christian
haters and "Bush bashers" and "Liberals"
because there has been a careful campaign
to portray us as such, to keep folks from
looking too carefully at WHY half of the
country and most of the world is appalled
at what Cheney, Ashcroft, Karl Rove, Bush
etc. have done in the past four years.

Why do you think 61% of the country mistakenly
believes that Iraq was involved in the 9/11
attack? Why do you think GW Bush spent his
recent campaign demonizing Kerry rather than
pointing to his own record? Do you even remember
the George W. Bush who ran in 2000? Well, we
do. He told America anything he thought would
get him elected, then he turned around and
pursued a much more radical agenda.

The propagandists would have you believe
that Bush represents morality and Christian
values, and that the folks opposing him
are unpatriotic secularist wackos. Actually, we
are mostly people who reject the propagandist line
and get our news from a plurality of REAL
sources. We are people who can put what
the Bush Administration HAS ACTUALLY DONE beside what George W. Bush SAYS.
This is a guy who gets political gain from "supporting the troops"...
while cutting Veteran Benefits, sending in
unprepared reservists, and instituting an
"emergency" backdoor draft. This is a guy
who says he's heading up a "War on Terror"
while blithely introducing terror to Iraq, ignoring the Geneva Convention, sending
"suspected terrorist sympathizers" to proxy torturers, and illegally detaining hundreds of people in Guantanamo Bay for YEARS without due process.

This is not Conservative vs. Liberal
(Bush is a radical, not a conservative) nor
is it Christian vs. the heathens.

This is the watchful vs. the willingly misled.

And the watchful have every good
reason to be outraged....and very, very worried.

*EDited because I shouldn't try to
write this early in the morning :-)*

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:33 AM

GRUESOME

Quote:

What you are misreading as "hatred" is the genuine
anguish and frustration of REAL patriots who
are watching America being dismantled
and subverted by a handful of extremists.

I understand what you are saying, but do not believe that I am misreading your words and actions. You help fuel those that disagree by providing them with quotes and bullet points to illustrate their points. You help feed into their image of you rather than dismantling it.
At the end of the day, results are what matter and I have a pretty strong opinion that I may be better at getting people to understand my points by not denigrating theirs and by not calling them names or generalizing them to their face and thus belittling what they have to say.

When I came into THIS thread, I generalized the left because people ought to be able to "speak to their people" in a frank and open way. And what happened? I got called a republican and told the state of the country is my fault! Not only that, the person most udnerstanding of my point and most willing to discuss it rationally is a freakin REPUBLICAN. (Well, you haven't been so bad)

Quote:

Folks believe that "the Left" are Christian
haters and "Bush bashers" and "Liberals"
because there has been a careful campaign
to portray us as such

I think that is only a tiny portion of what the left allows to be done to it by not pointing out that Michael Moore is NOT representative of a great number of people on the left.

When people are not capable of critical self-analysis, they never grow.

You're a bright guy. Lets look at just your last post and judge its merits and ability to sway people NOT to preach to the choir, ok?

"It's the appalling dismissal of FACTS."

Your view.

"a handful of extremists."

Call people a name.

"This election proved that it isn't that
difficult to fool 52% of the people."

Call people gullible.

"Do you even remember
the George W. Bush who ran in 2000?"

Condescending.

"The propagandists"

namecalling

"This is the watchful vs. the willingly misled."

Condescending

"And the watchful have every good
reason to be outraged....and very, very worried."

YES! And exactly why the rhetoric needs to be designed to actually open peoples minds NOT piss them off. This isn't a debate! You don't win and the other person loses. You either learn something about them and how to talk better with them or you do not.

Because the alternative to changing peoples minds are silly abortive attempts at "getting out the vote" and "vote or die".

There were MORE than enough votes to be had amongst the current registrations. But rather than trying to honestly convince people in EFFECTIVE ways, everyone was trying to browbeat everyone else.

"Why do you think 61% of the country mistakenly believes that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attack?"

Newsflash man, 40% of the country doesn't know who the Vice-President is. A lot of people don't know a lot of things. BUt it doesn't mean they want to be TOLD they are not too knowledgeable. Its all about sales...

Cheers,
Gruesome

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:43 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Suze, the only thing you left out was the systematic rape and torture of our environment. Which will continue unabated for the next 4 years.

To the rest of the world: please don't judge us by the populist vote. There were plenty of us who voted against Bush and had hopes for a (relatively) peaceful resolution to all the rancor across the globe, a safer future for our children, and better lives for us all. We had a lot of hope.

All I can say is God help us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:05 AM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Suze, the only thing you left out was the systematic rape and torture of our environment. Which will continue unabated for the next 4 years.

Thank you for adding that, Rhyme.
Actually, I didn't put that in because
I was afraid that people who read my posts
both here and the OB were becoming
uncomfortable with my very pointed and
personal campaign to raise awareness of the
Bush's-backers-dump-toxins-and-cause-
cancer-rates-to-go-up issue.

In fact, this is a good time to appeal to
my Republican friends: Please ask your
leadership to reexamine the environmental
"policies" currently in place. The
poisoning of our own children should concern
everyone, from megacorporation CEOs to the
farmers in middle of the seemingly-pristine
heartland of this country. It's time to
recognize that relaxing pollution standards as a "favor" to Big Money has lasting, horrible,
irreversible effects. Contamination of soil,
water and air should NOT NOT NOT be a
partisan issue. We're ALL downstream/ downwind.

Please erase the tree-hugging, spotted-owl lovin'
hippie image of an environmentalist that some
of you have, and replace it with someone like me: Someone who has seen more bald kids undergoing chemotherapy than I ever wanted to imagine existed. Remember that it's the human race
we're trying to save, not some obscure species of amphibian. It's too late to save amphibians,
so I'm for being selfish and saving OURSELVES.

(Oh everyone is SO glad you reminded me
to go to my RANT, Rhyme...can you feel the
gratitude sweetie???)

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:09 AM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

How kind of you to "condescend" to pointing
out all the problems with my post, Gruesome.
It's really valuable to have your opinion
that my rhetoric is more inflammatory than
*your* rhetoric!

(Now, don't forget to complain about
my use of sarcasm! And be sarcastic while
you do so, please, so we can keep this
pointless exhange going indefinitely!!!)

WAIT and I Just have to edit to include this last thing. You said, You're a bright guy. Lets look at just your last post...

Then later, you called me "man."

With all due respect to Johnny Cash and his
hit song....HOW could you assume I was a GUY?
How many men named "Suzie" do you know? LOL.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:49 AM

GRUESOME

I apologize if I am showing my age by my use of the term "man". It is a generic term. Like "he" in shakespeare. Don't make something out of nothing. I didn't really notice your name contained the word Suzie at the end anyway. SHould I also assume you are a floozy?

And I am not condescending to you. I am trying to point out the points of your posts that would not be taken well and would likely instead get the hackles up of those that you would, in theory, be trying to convince of your issues.

It is becoming clear though that some people here have little to no interest in any constructive criticism and cannot distinguish it from ad hominem attacks of the right.

So, what we have is a group of people that share many of the same beliefs that seem to want to find solace in bickering with one another. Thats great. I guess that I am becoming surprised that there was only a 3.5 million vote margin.

Is it honestly too much to ask that someone could read my words and not attribute double meaning and hidden insult to them?

Can you not recognize when someone is not attacking your beliefs but perhaps suggesting your delivery sucks?

If you can't hold this conversation with me, why on earth would you ever bother trying to discuss politics with someone that doesn't share your views? Because you like arguing? If so, thats fine, but say so please and I'll stop wasting my time trying to raise the level of conversation to one that might actually accomplish something.

Cheers,
Gruesome

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:27 AM

KNIBBLET

*sigh*

The young didn't turn out to vote. When they find themselves drafted to fight George's oil wars, perhaps they'll regret the oversight.

One pundit made the observation that the " 'Nascar Dads' felt that they shared more core values with Bush". I never realized that spending 3 decades as a coke sniffing drunk was a value that the nascar types admired.

We seriously need to overhaul the electoral college. We also need to once again seperate church and state and reinstitute a free press.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:27 AM

CSSTROWBRIDGE

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

Yep, that's why you never hear the right calling people, 'liberal' like it's some kind of insult. No wait, that happens all the time. Hell, Republicans were calling Kerry a Massachusetts Liberal, and no one in the media called them on it.

Imagine if Kerry called Bush a, 'typical Texas hick.' You know there would be outrage.

C.S.Strowbridge
News Editor / Movie Reviewer / Talentless Hack
http://members.shaw.ca/csstrowbridge/MainPage.htm

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:42 AM

JASONZZZ

Dear Gruesome:

I am so truly sorry that you have been reduced to a mere caricature of what others believe you to be based on your selected stance and beliefs. It's difficult when folks just aren't willing to debate on the merits of the issue and then to just leave it all well said and done when the issues are irreducible to nothing but deeply held positions and beliefs. We are all good hardworking Americans who wish well on ourselves, our families, our friends and neighbors. There must be some common ground we can hold onto without resorting to just calling each other dummies and liars.

Let's face it, whether you voted for Bush or not. The nation and the elections have not been about leadership. We haven't had good leaders where we as citizens can be confident about their ability to make good sound decisions (that's from either party). Good leaders have the ability to unite people, to have you at least trust them and respect them when they make decisions - even when you disagree with them. They are some one that you can admire - whether it's charisma or ability to actually execute and accomplish something. Without that lately, thus we all will be continually bickering about their decisions - whatever the issues, however the decision lie.

We've all been to reduced to sets of issues - and there isn't anything wrong with that; except that we all get labeled based on those issues. But while we are not all single issue minded folks, we are forced to make decisions weighting the importance of all of these complex sets of issues. We are not all evangelical Christians and we are not all tree-huggers, but we ended up picking those candidates that represent some other elements of our beliefs who also happen to carry along caricatures of those other things too. Sadly, we really have these two choices.

or do we? Why didn't we vote Nader? Why wasn't McCain on the roll?

If everyone wants to keep bickering in the next 4 years and do nothing else productive. That's their rights as Americans. Or you can start now and make real changes in the system so that we aren't as devisive, so that we have better candidates, so that our political parties don't suck as much.

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 8:05 AM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Your calling me "man" would not have occasioned the slightest comment if not for the fact that you made an *earlier* assumption of masculine gender.

I also frequently sprinkle my speech with terms like "groovy" and "man", if only to elicit eye-rolling from my teenager. Like, I get it, Gruesome, man. It's cool.

HOWEVER there is that condescending "You're a BRIGHT GUY (but)..." line a few paragraphs
earlier. :-P

uh, so not gender neutral.

also, so clearly patronizing
(as was your scolding, "Don't make something
out of nothing" )

Your entire last post: Condescending, spoiling for fight while arguing that OTHERS should cease

And, yes, you can assume I'm a floozy.
But only in the damn-your-husband-is-so-lucky!
connotation ;-)

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 8:38 AM

GRUESOME

Quote:

"You're a BRIGHT GUY (but)..." line a few paragraphs
earlier. :-P

uh, so not gender neutral.

D'oh! True. That was me not paying attention to the name of the poster to whom I was replying.

Quote:

Your entire last post: Condescending, spoiling for fight while arguing that OTHERS should cease

I think that is how you choose to interpret it. I really do not have any interest in fighting with you. QUite the opposite, I am hoping to tone the rhetoric down to a point in which people can just talk. I think that you view my words in the worst possible light, it seems. Were we to compare our postings though, can you imagine how I might take your words then?

Quote:

And, yes, you can assume I'm a floozy.
But only in the damn-your-husband-is-so-lucky!
connotation ;-)

Heh... I have no defense or retort to that!

Cheers,
Gruesome

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:10 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
I don't really know anyone that likes him though.

Would it then be your contention that it is good
to emulate the likes of him?

You bring up an obvious example of someone on the right that is an attacker. But, his behavior is in the minority of those on the right in my opinion.

I'm not condoning this type of behavior on either side. I meant the Hannity crack to be tounge in cheek. However, it doesn't matter that he's in the minority or not, point is that he is a well known, popular, conservative who does resort to calling liberals stupid, or even stating that they morally bankrupt.

Quote:
This election was typical, IMO. the drive wasn't to try to debate the merits of positions and perhaps change anyone's view with CALM conversation, it was to shanghai new voters to march lock-step into the booths to just outnumber them.

You're right, this election was politics as usual. I don't think it's ever been about calm conversation.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:40 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I've certainly seen that. But honestly, to my eye, that rhetoric seems like last resort from most on the right."

Actually, the Bush campaign made a complete theme out of PERSONALLY attacking Kerry - does the phrase flip-flopper ring a bell?

I thought the Kerry campaign could credibly be described as issue-oriented: the war (how's that working for you?), the economy, personal freedoms etc.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 9:16 PM

GRUESOME

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I've certainly seen that. But honestly, to my eye, that rhetoric seems like last resort from most on the right."

Actually, the Bush campaign made a complete theme out of PERSONALLY attacking Kerry - does the phrase flip-flopper ring a bell?

I thought the Kerry campaign could credibly be described as issue-oriented: the war (how's that working for you?), the economy, personal freedoms etc.

You and I did not watch the same election take place. Kerry's "issues" were 2 sides of every one, so from the that perspective, I suppose you are right, Kerry had twice as many issues.

As far as attacking Kerry, it was the 501(??) groups doing the damage there aside from the bush folks clinging to the "flip-flop" theme that Kerry consistently handed to them on a silver platter.

I heard far more venomous things coming from the left. Perhaps not always from Kerry's mouth, but for someone that constantly asked Bush to apologize for what the swift-boat veterans were saying, I sure didn't see him apologizing for people like Michael Moore calling bush a murderer and guilty of treason on Kerry's behalf.
Whether you like it or not, people judge you not only on your own merits, but also by the company you keep. I think you delude yourself if you think that Kerry did enough to distance himself from the vitriol spewing out of the left coast.

And for every one Hannity, there were 10 celebrities saying far worse about bush.

If rational people on the left could become the primary voice of it, then people like Hannity wouldn't seem appropriate on the right. As it is, he seems almost tame to me.

Cheers,
Gruesome

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Saturday, November 6, 2004 11:24 AM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

I have a problem with the Flop Flopper charge on most candidates. Even before this election. It implies that it's wrong to change one's mind. Aside from just trying to capture the popular opinion of an issue, it's good that political leaders have the capacity to change their mind or at least make compromises to get things done. I think Lincoln had a great quote on this. Something about if both sides of any issue are angry with you, you're probably right where you need to be.

Maybe Hannity, Limbaugh and their ilk are a minority but they get a lot of air time almost every day. And Hannity is anything but tame.

I think it's obvious that the The Swift Vote .. I mean the Swift Boat Vets are political schills. There is a lot of evidence that indicates that the Republican Party is actually behind them. Whether you agree with him or not at least Moore is doing what he does for a living, nobody asked him. Not to mention the Swift boat ads were placed on national television to see Moore's view point you buy a ticket.

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Sunday, November 7, 2004 9:11 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey Tom,
I hope this helps answer your question about Afghanistan. You need to keep in mind the limitations of the available information:
most if not all of the NGOs (non-governmental organizations like the International Red Cross - IRC, Medecines sans Frontieres - Doctors without Borders) etc have pulled out of Afghanistan, and to my knowledge have not returned. Available satellite photo service was bought up by the US government (though Google recently acquired a satellite photo service that may include Afghanistan), and security is bad enough and the story old enough that reporters are no longer stationed across the country. So, much information comes as government press releases. There are stories that I certainly would like to have had a follow-up on: the multi-year drought and the war that had people eating grass and starving to death in remote valleys (is it over?), the halting and feeble start of weapons surrender by the warlords (do they still have their weapons?), security across Afghanistan (is it still lawless?), etc. If you do find additional information, I would appreciate it if you would post links, if they are available.

http://www.brookings.edu/iraqindex
Underneath the paragraph about iraqindex is a paragraph about the afghanistan index with a link. An unpdated PDF is available one or two links on from that.

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Sunday, November 7, 2004 9:31 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/20/swift.assault/
"The swift boat group denies any direct contact with the RNC, the Bush White House or any Republican group."

But:
Following the public revelations that he worked (as legal cousel) for both the Bush campaign and SBVT, Ginsberg resigned. In his resignation letter to Bush he wrote “I have decided to resign as national counsel to your campaign to ensure that the giving of legal advice to decorated military veterans, which was entirely within the boundaries of the law, doesn't distract from the real issues upon which you and the country should be focusing”.

Kenneth Cordier - Former Bush-Cheney campaign advisor - forced to resign after appearing in Swift Boat Veterans for Bush commercial.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html "Records show that the group (SBVT) received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice."

It takes only the most rudimentary search to find scores of connections between SBVT and the Bush White House, his advisors, Republican donors, the campaign etc.

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