REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What are America's interests?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, July 22, 2024 05:02
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Friday, November 11, 2016 3:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



It's a question that I've asked over and over, that nobody has answered.

For the purposes of definition, "America" is the land inside the borders of the self-defined nation-state of the United States of America, and "Americans" are citizens of that nation.

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Friday, November 11, 2016 8:22 AM

WISHIMAY


FREE WI-FI FOR EVERYONE!!!


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Friday, November 11, 2016 9:44 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It's a question that I've asked over and over, that nobody has answered.

For the purposes of definition, "America" is the land inside the borders of the self-defined nation-state of the United States of America, and "Americans" are citizens of that nation.
And now you have your answer: Trump campaigned against lobbyists. Now they’re on his transition team.

After campaigned against the corrupt power of special interests, he is filling his transition team with the very same people he has complained have too much clout in Washington: corporate consultants and lobbyists:

1) Jeffrey Eisenach, a consultant who has worked for years on behalf of Verizon and other telecommunications clients, is the head of the team that is helping to pick staff members at the Federal Communications Commission.

2) Michael Catanzaro, a lobbyist whose clients include Devon Energy and Encana Oil and Gas, holds the “energy independence” portfolio. Mr. Catanzaro’s client list is a who’s who of major corporate players.

3) Michael Torrey, a lobbyist who runs a firm that has earned millions of dollars helping food industry players such as the American Beverage Association and the dairy giant Dean Foods, is helping set up the new team at the Department of Agriculture.

4) Michael McKenna, another lobbyist helping to pick key administration officials who will oversee energy policy, has a client list that this year has included the Southern Company, one of the most vocal critics of efforts to prevent climate change by putting limits on emissions from coal-burning power plants.

5) Martin Whitmer is overseeing “transportation and infrastructure” for the Trump transition. He is the chairman of a Washington law firm whose lobbying clients include the Association of American Railroads and the National Asphalt Pavement Association.

6) David Malpass, the former chief economist at Bear Stearns, the Wall Street investment bank that collapsed during the 2008 financial crisis, is overseeing the “economic issues” portfolio of the transition, as well as operations at the Treasury Department. Mr. Malpass now runs a firm called Encima Global, which sells economic research to institutional investors and corporate clients.

7) Dan DiMicco, a former chief executive of the steelmaking company Nucor, who now serves on the board of directors of Duke Energy, is heading the transition team for the Office of the United States Trade Representative.

Trump’s spokeswoman, Hope Hicks, declined a request for comment, as did nearly a dozen corporate executives, consultants and lobbyists serving on his transition team, which was outlined in a list distributed widely in Washington on Thursday.
www.documentcloud.org/documents/3217279-2016-11-10-Transition-Team-Lis
t.html

One of the reasons you had such anger among voters is people rigging the system, gaming the system. This represents more of the same. Voters responded to Trump’s vow to restore the voices of forgotten people, ones drowned out by big business and Wall Street.

http://msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-campaigned-against-lobbyists-
now-they%E2%80%99re-on-his-transition-team/ar-AAk9Rg3?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

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Friday, November 11, 2016 11:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND: ANOTHER second-hand post from a second-rate thinker??? Why don't you post YOUR OWN thoughts instead of someone else's? Or are you so thoroughly propagandized that you don't have any of your own?

Donald Trump was elected. And the fact that you keep bitching and whining about it just proves that you hate America and are trying to bring down its democratic institutions. So good on YOU, commie troll!!

BUT, if you can manage to post YOUR OWN THOUGHTS (if you have any) and can manage NOT to bitch about Trump (like you do endlessly) and actually address THE TOPIC then maybe we can have a discussion!




G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Friday, November 11, 2016 12:31 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND: ANOTHER second-hand post from a second-rate thinker??? Why don't you post YOUR OWN thoughts instead of someone else's? Or are you so thoroughly propagandized that you don't have any of your own?

Donald Trump was elected. And the fact that you keep bitching and whining about it just proves that you hate America and are trying to bring down its democratic institutions. So good on YOU, commie troll!!

BUT, if you can manage to post YOUR OWN THOUGHTS (if you have any) and can manage NOT to bitch about Trump (like you do endlessly) and actually address THE TOPIC then maybe we can have a discussion!
There is always new facts about Trump because he energetically creates new atrocities. That is not true about you. I've read your thoughts. Why are you always repeating yourself? Are you stuck in a loop?

For a change, please have a new series of thoughts in your head because America is not interested in the old you. Maybe talk about Firefly and post something related to it that other fans (and America!) are interested in. Here are two examples I did this month:
www.fireflyfans.net/bluesun.aspx?bid=24871
www.fireflyfans.net/bluesun.aspx?bid=24872

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Friday, November 11, 2016 12:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECONDHAND/SECONDRATE: THIS IS NOT THE THREAD YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRUMP.

I REALIZE THAT YOU WANT TO PUT YOUR AMERICA-HATING PROPAGANDA INTO AS MANY THREADS AS POSSIBLE. YOU FIND IT SO DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT AMERICA WITH PRIDE AND CARE BECAUSE YOU ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH YOUR OWN GROUP OF NEO-LIBERALOIDS. THAT IS WHY I'M NOT RESPONDING TO YOUR POSTS, COMRADE TROLL.



G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Friday, November 11, 2016 1:10 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECONDHAND/SECONDRATE: THIS IS NOT THE THREAD YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRUMP.

I REALIZE THAT YOU WANT TO PUT YOUR AMERICA-HATING PROPAGANDA INTO AS MANY THREADS AS POSSIBLE. YOU FIND IT SO DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT AMERICA WITH PRIDE AND CARE BECAUSE YOU ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH YOUR OWN GROUP OF NEO-LIBERALOIDS. THAT IS WHY I'M NOT RESPONDING TO YOUR POSTS, COMRADE TROLL.
Isn't your thread titled What are America's Interests?

It is in America's Interest to not delay Trump's trial:

Trump seeks to delay trial until after inauguration

Trump wants to delay the federal fraud trial he faces here Nov. 28 until after his inauguration in January, his attorney Daniel Petrocelli told Judge Gonzalo Curiel on Thursday.

Petrocelli said he would make a formal request to delay the trial by Monday. After court Thursday, Petrocelli told reporters Trump wanted to testify in person before his election as president.

"Now he’s going to have to take into account whether that’s the best use of his time, and he has to weigh his desire to be here against the needs of the country right now," Petrocelli said. It’s hard to say a sitting president is less busy or more expendable than a president-elect. Petrocelli did not have the balls to request the trial be delayed until Trump is out of office in eight years.

Judge Curiel said he understood and said it would be wise for the two sides to settle the case, a class-action fraud lawsuit involving Trump and his now-defunct Trump University.

At Curiel's suggestion, Petrocelli said he was open to the help of another federal judge, Jeffrey Miller, in trying to find a way to settle before trial.

"I can tell you right now I'm all ears," Petrocelli told Curiel.

Curiel didn't say how he would rule but said he expects the case to last into mid-December if it starts as scheduled. An attorney for the plaintiffs, Jason Forge, told USA TODAY after the hearing that he didn't think the request for a delay got any traction with Curiel.

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Friday, November 11, 2016 1:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECONDHAND/SECONDRATE:

1) First of all, just because you didn't supply a link doesn't mean that your post is your own writing. I don't believe you wrote that. I doubt you can respond INTELLIGENTLY to any questions about that post because it is not a product of your own mind.

2) "It is in America's Interest to not delay Trump's trial"

Is it? Why? How? WHO is this good for, and who is it not good for?

My god, you have the focus of a flea. The fact that you are willing to ignore and dismiss the interests of roughly half of Americans was the reason why you Hitlery-ites lost the election, and demonstrates once again that you hate America, and furthermore, you hate an awful lot of Americans. So good on you, comrade-toll, for hating democracy!



G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Friday, November 11, 2016 1:45 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECONDHAND/SECONDRATE:

1) First of all, just because you didn't supply a link doesn't mean that your post is your own writing. I don't believe you wrote that. I doubt you can respond INTELLIGENTLY to any questions about that post because it is not a product of your own mind.

2) "It is in America's Interest to not delay Trump's trial"

Is it? Why? How? WHO is this good for, and who is it not good for?

My god, you have the focus of a flea. The fact that you are willing to ignore and dismiss the interests of roughly half of Americans was the reason why you Hiltery-ites lost the election, and demonstrates once again that you hate America, and furthermore, you hate an awful lot of Americans. So good in you, comrade-toll, for hating democracy!
It is in America's Interests (the title of Signym's thread) to know before Trump is inaugurated if he is a fraud or not. If he loses the case, he is a fraud. If he settles the case, he is afraid of being proven a fraud. If he delays the case, there will be a delay before America realizes Trump is a fraud. The only honorable action is for Trump to testify without delay and prove he is not a fraud. America needs to know who Trump is, as decided by a Court.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 11, 2016 1:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
It took all of 4 posts until trolled: = GSTRING

Oh, my!
You hate being trolled?
You can dish it out but ya can't take it?
Well, suck it up, ya crybaby!

This, from the guy whose thread wound up in troll country.

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Friday, November 11, 2016 2:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
It is in America's Interests (the title of Signym's thread) to know before Trump is inaugurated if he is a fraud or not.= SECONDHAND/SECONDRATE
So speaking of degenerate-America-hating trolls...

I think it''s in America's greater interests to have Hitlery and her sexual predator partner testify UNDER OATH about their email, Foundation, and pay-to-play dealings, don't you? I mean, what is of more importance? To know about Hitlery's backdoor dealings with her biggest supporter and fan club, Saudi Arabia, whose asshole we seem to have our State Dept/ CIA nose stuck in for the past 8 years??

Talk about being anti-American!

And you were her big supporter which- in my book- makes you anti-American too. My god, you just can't get over losing, can you? You're one of those "generation snowflake"-types who makes a career out of feigning victimization! Suck it up, you anti-American troll, you.



G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Friday, November 11, 2016 2:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Now at SOME point- after Monday, when I will be done dosing you all with your own medicine - you might want to talk about AMERICA'S interests. Not "women's" interests, not "the poor illegal immigrant's" interests, not "black lives matter" interests, not the interests of some godforsaken nation that most Americans can't find on a map, but the interest where we almost all intersect, the interests which draw us AMERICANS together, not the interests which pit us against each other. 'Cause that being-pitted-against-each-other thing? That's a fool's game.

So let me know if you're ready to stop being fools.



G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Friday, November 11, 2016 2:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Ha! You think I care what you type or think or feel? You only make yourself look bad so bring it! The more the better. Let your full hate out!=GSTRING
Good lord, child, if you didn't care you wouldn't respond. You manage to be an asshole with every post: May I remind you that YOU looked SO BAD that it was YOUR thread that got banished to troll country??? And you don't even see it. You STILL can't figure out what you did wrong!

What an idiot.


G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Friday, November 11, 2016 2:44 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
It is in America's Interests (the title of Signym's thread) to know before Trump is inaugurated if he is a fraud or not.= SECONDHAND/SECONDRATE
So speaking of degenerate-America-hating trolls...

I think it''s in America's greater interests to have Hitlery and her sexual predator partner testify UNDER OATH about their email, Foundation, and pay-to-play dealings, don't you? I mean, what is of more importance? To know about Hitlery's backdoor dealings with her biggest supporter and fan club, Saudi Arabia, whose asshole we seem to have our State Dept/ CIA nose stuck in for the past 8 years??

Talk about being anti-American!

And you were her big supporter which- in my book- makes you anti-American too. My god, you just can't get over losing, can you? You're one of those "generation snowflake"-types who makes a career out of feigning victimization! Suck it up, you anti-American troll, you.
You weren't following the news, were you? Hillery did willingly testify to Congress. On the other hand, Trump has been delaying his fraud case for five years. Trump said he did not trust the Mexican judge to give him a fair trial in US District Court. The judge is NOT Mexican, despite what Trump said. Along with Mexicans, Trump possibly does not trust American Courts. If true, not very American of Trump, is it? Which America will be interested to know for sure about Trump, once he goes on trial for fraud.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 11, 2016 2:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Hitlery did willingly testify to Congress.- SECONDRATE
Like with a cloth???


G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Friday, November 11, 2016 3:39 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


I have another American interest story for Sygnym. It certainly interests me:

It's not clear that the GOP leadership is on board with Trump, who could be impeached by a Republican Congress that would prefer a President Mike Pence — someone who establishment Republicans know and trust.

The man who predicted Trump would win, Allan Lichtman, said. “They don't want Trump as president, because they can't control him. He's unpredictable. They'd love to have Pence — an absolutely down the line, conservative, controllable Republican. And I'm quite certain Trump will give someone grounds for impeachment, either by doing something that endangers national security or because it helps his pocketbook.”

Lichtman actually isn't the only person to predict a Trump impeachment; this morning, the New York Times's David Brooks suggested a Trump impeachment or resignation was “probably” in the cards sometime within the next year. "His main problem is going to be his own attention span, ignorance and incompetence. If he’s left to bloviate while others are left to run the country and push through infrastructure plans, maybe things won’t be disastrous."
www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/opinion/the-view-from-trump-tower.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 11, 2016 4:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


second

Trump or Pence wouldn't matter if democrats had control of even ONE house in Congress. But your beloved 'democratic' party - whose asshole your mouth has been so firmly pressed against, eating up all the party shit and spewing it back out here - lost the entire congress during Obama's first term, and never got it back.

"Starting January 2009, at the beginning of the 111th Congress ... the House of Representatives was made up of 257 Democrats and 178 Republicans. There is no question that Democrats had total control in the House from 2009-2011.

On January 20th, 2009, 57 Senate seats were held by Democrats with 2 Independents (Bernie Sanders and Joe Lieberman) caucusing with the Democrats ... Republicans held 41 seats."

You tell ME second -


How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?




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Friday, November 11, 2016 4:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I have another American interest story for Sygnym. It certainly interests me:

It's not clear that the GOP leadership is on board with Trump, who could be impeached by a Republican Congress that would prefer a President Mike Pence — someone who establishment Republicans know and trust. - SECOND
If the Republican ESTABLISHMENT gets rid of Trump, then the Republican ESTABLISHMENT will get the same drubbing as the Democratic ESTABLISHMENT.

People need change that will improve their lives.

But you're such an American-hating droid that I doubt you will ever admit that the Dems screwed up their commitment to Americans.



G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Friday, November 11, 2016 6:03 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
second . . . your beloved 'democratic' party - whose asshole your mouth has been so firmly pressed against, eating up all the party shit and spewing it back out here - lost . . . You tell ME second -

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?
What you want to read is The whole Democratic Party is now a smoking pile of rubble by Matthew Yglesias. He is a Dem:
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/10/13576488/democratic-party-s
moking-pile-rubble

The down-ballot party has withered, and Obama’s policy legacy will be largely repealed. That is a problem for the Democrats to solve.

What Democrats do about the mess is not my problem.

I live in Texas, which is controlled by Republicans. I am of the 1%, making the Republican Party my natural home. The GOP looks after my people – rich, white, powerful families who once were cotton planters and slave owners.

My ancestors got rid of the slaves, kept the plantation and bought more land west of San Antonio and Corpus Christi. Life has been good since natural gas and crude were discovered beneath our ground.

My Mother’s “broken down aristocracy” (Father's joke) became wealthy. Not broke now! God blessed my people with unearned royalties. My Father says there is nothing shameful about owning land and being rich. Ask Trump how that works.

Once Trump is President, I look forward to my very large tax cut. I did not vote for him but I will feel no shame taking his money.

Thank you Republican voters! I love you poorly educated little people with pinched lives limited by lack of opportunity. Keep voting GOP! I want more Trump money! I can’t say I feel sorry when the little people don’t receive the benefits that the GOP feels are my right and privilege. That money is for natural winners, not for you.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 11, 2016 8:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


No wonder your posts are so stupid. You don't understand the 99% people of any party so you couldn't effectively argue a side. And you certainly can't afford any real disruption in the system. Game changers like Bernie are far too threatening to your way of life so you dismissed him out of hand.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Friday, November 11, 2016 10:52 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


None of whatever you said Sigs...

I'm kind of fucking awesoe part tine
'


if I gave a single fuck about fuck, i'd be pretty awesome.


i soulc toll you kile 18more way better shows, bit kBlack Mirror



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, November 11, 2016 10:56 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


america is fucked for sure



but they7 only now see the black moirror



fucking so any better better moments
but The Waldo Moment, right?





Thje fucking Walop Moent
Go eat and Waldotaqoei Diaoiset?



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, November 11, 2016 11:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


END TIME is that we turened uyye itPlable wanabe



Are you not?

to

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, November 11, 2016 11:04 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK





Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 12:44 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hey Jack

If you haven't already, how about you put down the bottle and go to bed, OK?

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 5:28 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
No wonder your posts are so stupid. You don't understand the 99% people of any party so you couldn't effectively argue a side. And you certainly can't afford any real disruption in the system. Game changers like Bernie are far too threatening to your way of life so you dismissed him out of hand.
1kiki is not acknowledging that 99% of Republicans can't argue convincingly for Trump. But wasn't Trump also 1kiki's game changer? Trump would change the way the USA handles foreign policy and save the world from Hillary and WWIII.

And Bernie would change the game in domestic policy, according to 1kiki.

Small footnote: 1kiki might not have noticed, but Bernie lost the Democratic primary by 4 million votes. Hillary is ahead of Trump by a million votes. The crooked electoral college will take away Hillary's victory. I think the college would do the same to Bernie. Never forget, Bernie lost the primary by 4 million votes, Hillary won the general election by a million.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 5:35 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Hey Jack

If you haven't already, how about you put down the bottle and go to bed, OK?
The Big Banks are celebrating. Why shouldn't Jack get as drunk as the bankers?

It is in America’s Interest that large banks make large profits! Thank you Trump! I will have another drink.

The eight riskiest financial firms saw their market value up $53 billion the first day after Trump's surprise win. Thank you Trump!

http://rooseveltforward.org/trumps-election-immediately-gave-50-billio
n-dollars-wall-street/

New hopes of bank deregulation, and fat profits for Big Pharma, the stock market hit record highs:

The moves partly reflected expectations that a Trump administration would push to scale back financial regulation and increase government spending in a bid to boost economic growth....Thursday’s gains came as the president-elect’s transition team promised to dismantle the Dodd-Frank law, regulation that came out of the financial crisis....Pharmaceutical companies also jumped, with some analysts and investors saying drug-pricing restrictions would have been more likely under Democrat Hillary Clinton. Health-care companies had sold off sharply heading into the election.

www.wsj.com/articles/markets-rise-as-investors-begin-buying-in-to-trum
p-1478766871


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 5:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
second . . . your beloved 'democratic' party - whose asshole your mouth has been so firmly pressed against, eating up all the party shit and spewing it back out here - lost . . . You tell ME second - How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly? - KIKI

What you want to read is The whole Democratic Party is now a smoking pile of rubble by Matthew Yglesias. He is a Dem:
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/10/13576488/democratic-party-s
moking-pile-rubble= SECOND
What a stupid article! Does the author think this is some "hard hitting" opinion-piece??

It ignores VAST problems with Democratic party and Democratic policy in favor of some kinder, gentler ... inaccurate ... version of the party's fundamental problems.

To spare you all the tedium of reading the article, is does describe how Democrats have lost the "downballot" vote, depending on Presidential politics "to bequeath a legacy" but allowing everything from Congress to city councils to slip away.

Now, to some extent I agree that the most consequential positions are at the Federal level. Towns, cities, and states can only do a few things: They can fight amongst themselves over the number of available manufacturing jobs by offering even better tax deals than the next city/state over, BUT THEY CAN'T INCREASE THE OVERALL NUMBER OF JOBS. They can decide where they are going to spend their revenues and even borrow money but - in the end- they have to manage their budgets just like any household because - unlike banks or the Federal government, THEY CAN'T PRINT MONEY.

o, given the straightjacket that the smaller political units find themselves in, what is the "Obama legacy"? (And, one should add, the "Clinton legacy" before that?)

The author, Matthew Yglesias lists...
1) "sheltering unauthorized residents" (i.e. illegal immigrants)
2) climate change, and
3) Obamacare
... as Obama's signal accomplishments, his "legacy".

The author NEGLECTS to mention the following further "accomplishments"...
4) endless wars,
5) vast giveaway to financial institutions,
6) promotion of even more "free trade" agreements,
7) systemic party corruption,
8) financial policies designed to promote the top 0.01%, and
9) continued splitting and pandering to various ""victim" interest groups at the expense of an American identity
... as possible reasons for the DNC's poor showing.
Quote:
More broadly, the Obama-Clinton style of liberal incrementalism promised that while it wouldn’t deliver utopia, it would deliver wins and concrete results. And for a while, it did.
IT DIDN'T. You can quote chapter and verse about unemployment and per-capita gains, but the REALITY is that the Obama administration catered to the very wealthy, and gave everyone else cheap part-time service jobs. All of that talk about recovery was just that: TALK. People experiencing the reality of part-time existence on part-time wages remained unconvinced. As they should.

Quote:
To make its comeback, what’s left of the Democratic Party establishment — not just its elected officials but the leaders of its aligned institutions and its major donors — need to recognize that a strategy [aiming at the Presidency] they believed was working as recently as Tuesday afternoon has in fact failed quite badly.
As long as the DNC believes this is a "STRATEGIC" problem and not a problem of GOALS they will continue to fail spectacularly. The author's pandering to the DNC is doing them no favors: They need to be bitch-slapped by reality, and most of them need to step down and be replaced by those who have a real fervor for America.

But this isn't a Dem v GOP issue, because the Repub party faces the same problem: It's leadership is tied to the wealthy just as much as the Dems, and if the GOP- with Trump as its new mascot- fails to bring meaningful improvement to people's lives, all hell will break loose - again.



G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 5:59 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

But this isn't a Dem v GOP issue, because the Repub party faces the same problem: It's leadership is tied to the wealthy just as much as the Dems, and if the GOP- with Trump as its new mascot- fails to bring meaningful improvement to people's lives, all hell will break loose - again.
Trump has already failed you, Sygnym. All hell should break loose today. It is in America’s Interest that it knows what Trump has planned for Americans.

Though it was obscured from the voters during the campaign, Trump has a very clear stated agenda on finance, and it’s a bonanza of tax cuts and massive deregulation.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/9/13573294/donald-trump-financ
ial-regulation

Similarly, Trump’s plan for economically struggling whites is to drastically reduce their income by signing Paul Ryan’s plan to roll back the social welfare state.
/ www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/9/13572172/donald-trump-white-
working-class


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 6:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


AND NOW ... to America's interests.

Definitionally, I argue that "America's interests" are Americans' interests.

Not the interests of the vanishingly tiny but extremely powerful elite, and not the interest of some nation far-away, or of non-citizens within our borders, but the collective interests of the overwhelming majority of American citizens.

Now, we can look at this from the microscopic scale:

1) By looking at the interests of the various interest-groups that we have been so unfortunately divided into and seeing where they overlap and generalizing outward from there,

2) Or we can look at this from a theoretical viewpoint and narrow down to specifics.

I THINK THE FIRST APPROACH IS UNLIKELY TO BE SUCCESSFUL BY ITSELF. For example, if we start out with the idea that Black Lives Matter, and Women's Pay Matters, and Gay Marriage Matters, what we will wind up is with the truism that ... well, gosh, we should all be treated fairly and equally. Who could argue with that??? But we will STILL be fighting over the scarce resource of "jobs" (albeit more fairly!) and never get to the realization that maybe what we ALL need are better-paying, consequential jobs.

So I'm going to approach this from a theoretical POV, and start with WHAT DO HUMANS NEED? and work my way from there.

I hope you come along for the discussion, I've ended my trolling (which is really boring). Unless YOU start trolling again, in which case this will be a good discussion, spoiled.

And I'm going to ignore SIX's drunken posts, and I hope you do too. Because SIX is an intelligent guy when he isn't drunk, but that only seemed to have lasted for two days.




G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 6:06 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


No joke..

I'm going to masturbate to Fantasies of Britney Spears when She was 20 years old and Perfect.

Not because She was young and stupid back then, but because She was Young and Perfeckt back then and I would have done anything She asked. She should have been the first Madame President, no joke.


Men are particularly easy to manipulate. Especially White Males.

Every Woman in the RWED seems to want to deny that fact and/or work entirely against it, for better or for worse.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 6:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND - Firstly, Trump's policies are something we should hear from the Trump administration, not something we should hear from a hostile source.

Secondly, I intend to take the discussion in a very different direction. While Trump's policies deserve discussion, I'm going to look at this from a NONPARTISAN POV.

Feel free to bitch and kvetch about Trump all you want - I'm sure there will be PLENTY to bitch about* - but not in this thread. You can start an infinite number of OTHER threads for your purpose of bagging on Trump, 'mkay?

*I'm going to judge Trump's performance on the three things, and ONLY the three things, that I voted for:

1) Ending our pointless wars and making nice with Russia and everybody else. That means reining in the CIA and the State Dept and their endless "interventionism" abroad. And good luck with THAT, Donald!

2) Backing out of the "free trade" agreements that we seem to have negotiated in favor of the transnationals. The only trade agreement that I might be willing to let stand is the WTO ... and maybe not even that.

3) Getting rid of illegal immigration and deporting illegal immigrants.

I don't expect Trump to make a lick of sense on climate change, I doubt VERY much that he will be able to materially increase manufacturing in the USA because his policy is incomplete, and healthcare is going to be a nightmare.

But this whole discussion belongs elsewhere.





G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 6:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


WHAT ARE PEOPLE'S NEEDS?

Well, Americans are people, are they not? The best description of "people's needs" comes from Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, described as follows:



I think this is pretty complete, but if you can think of anything else, let me know.






G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 6:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
*raises hand* When can I disagree?- G
With what? If it's about Trump, take your post anywhere else. HERE http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60997 for example.

If it's respectful and on-topic, any time.



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Saturday, November 12, 2016 7:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Define "respectful." heh
Why? You seem to have a pretty good knowledge of what that means.

Quote:
You can't put everyone in the same static, hierarchical triangle. FAIL. That's what both parties did. FAIL. That is to me the lazy man's way to try and achieve Understanding.


Well, I agree. People will trade "belonging" for "safety", as when they go to war and risk (and lose) their lives in order to "belong". Even Maslow agreed: his opinion was that all of these are active at any one time. Although I guess it's a truism that if one ceases to exist (physiological) then all of those other needs disappear too; so meeting physiological needs is foundational for all others.

In studying apes there does seem to be a need for "fair". That is missing from Maslow's (not exactly) hierarchy of needs.

Also, people do seem to prefer stimulation, especially if it doesn't involve a lot of actual- yanno- physical effort. We get bored I guess, and that is relieved by storytelling, music, etc. Maybe we really crave learning: that "spark" creates a dopamine rush.

I'm not sure if or how this might fit in, but people need to have some sort of control over their lives. If you put a rat in a cage and shock it painfully at random times in a way that it can't escape, predict, or control, it cowers in a corner and loses its fur and condition. I can't believe that people are any different. "Teaching" and "religion" give us the impression of control, whether we have it or not. Maybe that belongs under "safety" in that we need to ensure our FUTURE safety as well as our present safety.

The thing that Maslow purposefully left out was the motivations of deviants ... sociopaths, psychopaths, etc. Although I don't think that a society SHOULD try to meet the needs of the few at the expense of the many, it certainly needs to recognize that they exist. Although The Death of Doctor Island by Gene Wolfe says otherwise.


---------------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 7:43 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Strange Situations make Strange Bedfellows...

It's Strange for me to NOT be with you Sigs.


IMO you have become Insane, and Self Serving.

I'd love to help you, but I really don't care about anybody here that much and never did.

It's just hard to sit back and watch one of the Good Ones become a mindless Ideologue.


Please know that you are now everything I always hated from either side, and God or the Spagetti Monster help us that Trump isn't one of You.


I TRULY hope you come back Sigs



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 7:46 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


AND THE SAME GOES FOR ANYONE WHO KICKS SIGS WHILE SHE'S DOWN.

ANYONE who is hostile to Sigs in this post I will consider a Hostile to Me as well.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 8:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


OK, other things not covered by Maslow's needs: Maslow focused on the individual. But the individual can do quite well and even "self actualize" (not sure what that is but ... ok) BUT

The human species would still die out if people didn't reproduce

And the society which sustains these individuals would fail if its mores and memes couldn't be passed down.

So Maslow is limited by the assumption that he is only focusing on the individual. That's as many additions and modifications that I can make to Maslow's theory for now.




"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 9:52 PM

THX


Should be to increase of wealth and quality of life of Americans regardless of the effects on the rest of the world. Every nation in the world has the same goal for themselves. If the government is NOT serving these goals (such as supporting immigration, foreign wars of aggression, etc...) then it is a clear indication of corruption.

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 10:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:
1kiki is not acknowledging that 99% of Republicans can't argue convincingly for Trump.
Another post and another (inevitable) strawman from second.
Quote:
But wasn't Trump also 1kiki's game changer? Trump would change the way the USA handles foreign policy and save the world from Hillary and WWIII.
Has he failed even before taking office? I'd sure like a cite on that.
Quote:
And Bernie would change the game in domestic policy, according to 1kiki.
Got a quote on that? I'm pretty sure I never posted that. Or are you still making shit up, as usual?
Quote:
Small footnote: 1kiki might not have noticed, but Bernie lost the Democratic primary by 4 million votes. Hillary is ahead of Trump by a million votes.
You think democrats voting in the democratic primary = all voters voting in the general election. And because d primary voters = all general election voters, d primary results MUST = general election results. Let me inform you now, that's not true. There's a reason why we don't just have d primaries to pick the next president.
Quote:
The crooked electoral college will take away Hillary's victory. I think the college would do the same to Bernie. Never forget, Bernie lost the primary by 4 million votes, Hillary won the general election by a million.
Annnd ... here's second, barreling forward along the same dead-end - quoted to preserve it for posterity.


How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 10:43 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.





We need to be in a survivable physiological state. So meeting physiological needs is the base of everything that comes after. We need (in order of how quickly we'll die), air, protection from extreme temperatures, water and food. And we also need an intact corpus - no bullet holes, battered brains or bodies, large cuts, etc. But I think we need more. Infants and young children need comfort and stimulation - without it they grow up as stunted, non-functional adults. Everyone needs a normal set of sensory experiences and physical activities, otherwise brains don't wire-up properly. We need to learn a language before adolescence, or it can't be learned at all. So I would put care, sensory stimulation, activity and language at the bottom of the hierarchy as well, since we need to have them to survive to adulthood and be functional in our physical and social world. I think without them, we wouldn't survive.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Saturday, November 12, 2016 11:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I have a problem with safety/ love/ belonging.

First of all, to survive as a species, all we need to do is keep one replacement child per adult alive long enough to have a replacement child of its own. The requirements to do that are pretty minimal, and I don't think they even necessarily have to be friendly, enjoyable, or even occasionally comfortable - just survivable.

When you look at societies today that aren't part of a cash society, they exist in every kind of environment. And their environment is unrelated to their social/ material culture, from scattered small family groups to large cohesive villages. And neither of those are related to how they see themselves, strangers, or their place in the world - and therefor, what they expect from each other, and how they treat each other.

So I'm going to provisionally place (safety/ love/ belonging) aside as a hierarchy of needs and put them provisionally into a hierarchy of expectations as experienced by a male of a particular culture, time, and place.


How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Sunday, November 13, 2016 12:27 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


One thing that all adults have in common, is that they have their origins in an intact society that provided for their survival and development, from infancy into a functional adult that could have and care for offspring of its own.

So in the hierarchy of needs I would add - a functioning adult society and a place in it for offspring.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Sunday, November 13, 2016 6:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes.

But I guess first of all, we have to recognize that there is an entity called "society" which

has a lifespan of its own
longer than the lifespan of its individual members
and that the "people" within it are like cells in the body, and have just as much chance of detecting the larger organism and understanding its behavior as the individual cells of a liver have of understanding the entire organism

Society and "people" are co-dependent, but not the same. And the behavior of "society" is not just the AVERAGE of the individuals within it, just as the behavior of a body is not just the average of the individual cells within it.

A body has ...
energy flows
division of labor
an inherited consensus among the cells as to "who does what" (very much unlike our view of individualism) ... which is information passed from generation to generation

The various labors include
defenders of the organization which attack both internal (cancer) and external (infection) threats
food energy processors and distributors
reproducers, not only of the organisms various class of cells (differentiated stem cells) but also colonizers ("babies") which carry the organism into different (elsewhere or future) environments

Now, occasionally, the body jumps off a cliff and takes all the individual cells with it (like the ecocide of Easter Island)

But to nail the analogy down, there are MANY self-created environments (societies, bodies) which can reproduce in some fashion. HOWEVER, they are not always suited for survival: Just as people engage in unhealthy behavior, so do societies not always tend to the survival of their individual members (cells) leading to their own destruction.

Okay, I know this is stretching an analogy but bear with me:

The most frequent occurrence of societal failure, as least as recorded in history, is the failure of the society to attend to the well-being of its critical but various individual members: the elite fail to attend to the wellbeing of farmers, manufacturers, and merchants and instead direct all energy to its elite members who are not only incapable of surviving on their own but who do not contribute to the rest of the body.

Think cancer.

But "cancer" isn't the ONLY demise of a body, it can become overwhelmed with infection, fail to colonize, starve, commit suicide, fail to adapt to new circumstances, and fail to reproduce its cells accurately ("age"). (Just trying to see what I can learn from this analogy...) ALSO, there are a multitude of conditions under which "the body" survives and endures: just because "the body" is alive doesn't mean that it is functioning optimally and that all cells are getting what they need, just that it means that it can continue for the time being.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Sunday, November 13, 2016 2:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I'll think about the analogy later ...


... but to continue the thought that society isn't just the aggregate behavior of (free-living, independent) individuals ...
I think that's congruent with the observation that the form of society and its precepts are completely independent from the circumstances of the natural world around it. ie jungle-dwelling hunter-gatherers don't always live in small, peaceful, mobile, isolated family groups; or in large, warring, stationary, organized villages. They can be one, or the other, or any combination in between. So how people organize, and what they tell themselves about why they do things the way they do them, is stochastic (happens by random chance) and self-reinforced. And the only thing a society needs to be is survivable over some generations. And that considering how lax the short-term requirements are, almost any kind of society can exist for a while.

Also, that generally, in the absence of foresight, societies inhabit their environment like other animals, increasing numbers until at some point they exceed the resources available. At which time a certain portion will be at risk of death. IN GENERAL societies - like other animals - don't 'think' long-term, and so they face an inevitable choice - adapt, or die. And since, over the long term, very few societies show adaptability, or hindsight, (Guns, Germs and Steel; Collapse) nearly all societies face inevitable collapse.

If I were to say anything about human needs, it's that they can only be met by cooperation.

(If I were to say something about human nature, it's that we tell ourselves stories so as to be able to exist in cohesive groups. And that we frame our thinking as a problem of the 'other' that we need to defeat, and our stories around 'beings' - spirits for example. And due to that, our ability to solve our problems by identifying and fixing impersonal problems of how we organize ourselves in our environment is limited.

Then there's the mystery of the 'demographic transition'. perhaps its due to an evolutionary history where the need to acquire more resources is geared to inter-tribal competition, where those with the stronger tribe win. So birth rate goes UP with declining resources, and DOWN with increasing resources. Also, the tendency to form hierarchies with an increase of resources - may be a byproduct of the potential for positive feedback in that situation. In any case, humans do respond to hierarchies, living in them as if they were a part of the natural environment. And societies, geared to maintaining a set of rules generation to generation, would naturally transmit those hierarchies however stochastically formed, and whether or not those hierarchies are survivable long-term.)

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Sunday, November 13, 2016 5:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


First, what "weird indents"?

I was doing 'carriage return" to make a non-enumerated list. Is that weird? Or are you just clueless?

Secondly, if "America's" interests are American's interests, and Americans are people, then I'm just trying to expand the scope as large as possible ... What are people's interests? just for the sake of completeness. It's called "brainstorming" ... yanno, just tossing ideas out there, and hoping that some ideas spark more ideas from others.

Feel free to add your own.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Monday, November 14, 2016 6:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, except for calling my thoughts on the topic a "deflection" ... which is what G ALWAYS calls my posts, no matter what I say .... it appears that G doesn't have any thoughts on THIS topic, either!

G: You're STILL following me from thread to thread in "attack" mode! Here I am, noodling about a fairly important topic, and looking at it from the broadest possible scope, and you have nothing ON TOPIC to say???

It seems YOUR posts are a "deflection"!


-----

The idea of framing "society" as an organism isn't new, but what IS new is the detail of our understanding of how "organisms" survive and colonize. so I'm gping to have to think how far the analogy goes, and where it breaks down- WITHOUT G'S HELP - since G never has anything germane to say on topic.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Monday, November 14, 2016 12:39 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


As for 'g' - I hear his nasal online voice in my head saying: 'but thinking is harrrrrrrrrrd ... it's too haaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrd ... and trolling is fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun ... '


When I think of organisms, I think about very specific things. An enzyme. A mitochondrion. Lungs. And so on. Nothing useful to your train of thought. You'll have to go on ahead without me, old paint.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Sunday, November 20, 2016 9:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Century of Self gave me more insights into this thread.

Implicit in that documentary is the concept that there is something called "society" which (in this case) is ruled by an elite.

I accept that "society" exists. That it is a real entity with its own sources of energy, it's own lifespan, it's own requirements for survival.

There are also individuals within those societies which have their own necessities for survival.

Societies can't exist without the individuals within it, and humans (specifically) can't survive without "society", even if that society is comprised of just a few individuals. That is necessitated by the fact that human babies are incredibly helpless and require MORE THAN ONE ADULT to survive.

--------

Having gotten that far, there are many (what I would consider to be) entirely dysfunctional societies which manage to survive and even (in some senses) thrive:

The Taliban, for example, consigns its female members to a degraded life of poverty and constraint, but since women have NO role except to have children, and no choice in the children that they have, they will. Unless the food, health, or security circumstances are so dire that women and children are dying in droves, the Taliban society could expand it's population quite quickly. And that's a successful society, isn't it? Able to reproduce its members and its memes at furious rate?

The circumstances that people live in ... the foods they eat, the technology that they use, the control that they individually have over their lives and the height of their hierarchy, the way they treat each other and "foreigners", the way they treat their environment, what they think is "real" and "not real"... are to a great extent set by their society (interacting, of course, with the environment).

And "people" can live in an extremely wide set of circumstances that are set for them by society. There have been societies that sacrificed thousands of people every year, societies where most of the people (including all of the women) were slaves, societies that ruthlessly and relentlessly killed others in its various colonizations .... there is no guarantee that just because a society survives and even "thrives" ... i.e. brings more and more people under its control and expands its physical reach .... doesn't mean that it's a "good" society or one that WE would like to live in, just that it continues to reproduce its physical members and continue its memes.

Counterpose what "society" needs to what humans need (and desire). Humans need sufficient shelter, water, food, and sleep for reproduction. Imagine lab rats in a not-so-nice ongoing laboratory environment.

But our evolution drives us in certain directions. Evolution has guided us to the highest-calorie foods, the most labor-saving methods, and a fairly robust sex drive, especially among males. (Also, among males, a tendency towards intraspecies competition - from "showing off" to outright fights.) That is, more food, more sex, and more fun with less work.

Evolution has also built in a need to have some control over our environment (remember the electric-shocked rats) which involves at its most fundamental level the ability to observe, connect an event with reward (or punishment) which prompts an activity (repetition or avoidance), remember the results, abstracts the situation and predict probable outcomes the next time.

And since we are (mostly) SOCIAL animals, evolution has also built in (for most of us) a desire to interact with others, and especially the need to feel accepted by a group - and therefore safe.

So although a society can thrive by exploiting its members terribly, we would probably want a society which meets our evolutionary drives as well as our physical needs. That doesn't mean endlessly "pander" to our desires ... do we really want to be diapered and fed by machines while we endlessly play video games? ... but to the extent that is more-or-less healthy.

Still, that leaves a very large space for society to exist.

There are other more "meta" requirements for a successful society, and there I look to a complex organism for a guide to what those requirements must be, and therefore how humans are also constrained.

As I mentioned before, a complex organism consists of differentiated cells which have defined roles, rules on "who does what" and "who gets what". These cells must reproduce themselves accurately or the organism fails. But unlike cells which reproduce genetically, the best blacksmith in the village may not have the best blacksmithing offspring. So getting people to the correct roles is a challenge. It has been (and still is) handled by caste or inheritance, usually with unremarkable results. There needs to be some form of social mobility. Libertarians and neo-liberals leave this to avocation and competition which should (in theory) create a meritocracy which benefits all.

There are two huge "buts" to the concept of avocation, competition, and meritocracy as the driving forces for filling social roles. The first is that this system doesn't generate its own demand ... for example, even if a lot of people are really good at video games, society may not have space for all of those gamers no matter how good they are. And secondly, even societies whose demand for social roles isn't distorted (more later) can be imbalanced by natural disaster or invasion, for example, and temporarily require more farmers, or more soldiers, or more mothers, than individuals who currently desire those roles. And this avocation-gap doesn't really respond to simply "raising wages".

Another requirement for societal survival is the ability recognize and destroy enemies. There is downright invasion (like an infection) where society is mobilized to repel the foreigner. There is also "infection" by foreign ideas, like viruses which take over cells and turn them to churning out foreign proteins ... if a society's ideas of itself change radically, can it be said to have "survived"?

But another enemy is the elite: people who just keep using up more and more energy and resources without contributing to the survival of anyone else, like cancers which grow and reproduce at an unsupportable rate, without contributing to the survival of the host. However, many societies have the "rules of the game" defined by the cancers within: Societal roles and norms are turned towards the benefit of the elite to an extent that doesn't happen with cancer IRL, so it seems the "immune" system of societies isn't as alert to internal enemies as it is towards external enemies.

Obviously, society needs a source of energy (to do work) and materiel (with which to make things). Societies have of course a much wider source of "energy" than human energy, including water-power, wind-power, hydrocarbon-power and electricity, but a society without a source of energy is a dead society.

In the long run, a society needs to stay within both its physical limits and its environmental limits. Animals just don't grow past a certain size and remain viable ... they reach the limits of their hearts, lungs, and other organs.

Societies need to remain within the realm of their environments, or they won't survive very long either.

But the analogy of society to a complex organism breaks down at some point.

The roles of a society can expand of contract in importance, like muscles can grow or gene expression can change. But societies can develop NEW roles, unlike an organism. It would be as if we could develop a jack that would let us draw power directly from a wall outlet, as opposed to eating food.

And in theory, societies can break into smaller independent units in times of stress. I only know of one organism - the hydra - which does that. And once the hydra breaks apart, it never to my knowledge re-assembles.

In addition, societies don't often just "get bigger", they actually get more complex and more fragile with increasing size (and also, the elite get access to a lot more resources).

THIS society may have also developed a unique quirk, in that it has convinced its members that there is NO SUCH THING as society! Or that there SHOULD BE no such thing! Every liver cell has the opportunity to become a brain cell! Or a cancer! Or nothing! Every heart muscle cell can live independently of all the other cells!


enough for now, but I promise I'm going somewhere with this.





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"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Sunday, March 5, 2017 5:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


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"Pity would be no more,
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THUGR IS A DEEP-STATE TROLL

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