Puerto Rico - U.S. Virgin Islands by SHINYGOODGUY

I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate; its inhabitants are US citizens
eventhough they don't live in the 50 states & mostly speak Spanish.
We are treating it like a Red-haired Stepchild.

The place has been neglected & impoverished for years, but many say
It has nothing to do with us.

I've also read that a couple of Navy ships have gone there to help.
What's needed is a fleet of freighters with emergency supplies.

The storm hit 'em a week ago. Help is overdue.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 10:02 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate; its inhabitants are US citizens
eventhough they don't live in the 50 states & mostly speak Spanish.
We are treating it like a Red-haired Stepchild.

The place has been neglected & impoverished for years, but many say
It has nothing to do with us.

I've also read that a couple of Navy ships have gone there to help.
What's needed is a fleet of freighters with emergency supplies.

The storm hit 'em a week ago. Help is overdue.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

When hurricanes hit Texas, Louisiana, and Florida, Trump was there. But those states send Republican Congressmen to vote for Trump's plans, Congressmen who would be deeply offended if Trump did not help them out, Congressmen who would take revenge on Trump. Puerto Rico doesn't have a voting Congressman, which makes it, and its people, useless to Trump.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 12:26 PM

"Where's the Clinton Foundation when you need it?" ~Puerto Rico, Sept 2017

"Where's the Clinton Foundation when you need it?" ~Haiti, circa 2010-2017

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:33 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
"Where's the Clinton Foundation when you need it?" ~Puerto Rico, Sept 2017

"Where's the Clinton Foundation when you need it?" ~Haiti, circa 2010-2017

Don't you mean the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? With an income of 53 billion USD (2010), it could do more than The Clinton Foundation with an income of 142.8 million USD (2010). But the U.S.A. with an income of 18.75 trillion dollars could do more, as could China with 21.37 trillion dollars. If his Chief of Staff can't push him hard enough and Trump sits on his hands long enough, China might just come to the aid of Puerto Rico.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 4:36 PM

Sure. Where's the Gates too? Where's Warren Buffet?

Yanno. There are a lot of people on the ground that are doing whatever they can to help out in this situation. The entire island was devastated. It's a tragedy of immense proprotions that isn't going to be fixed overnight. The only way to really get any meaningful aid right now is by barge, so until we invent warp drives for ships or teleportation devices this isn't going to be solved right away.

You people act as if nothing is being done.

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 6:15 PM

Incomplete Wiki notes:
"In 1898, following the Spanish–American War, the United States acquired Puerto Rico along with other Spanish colonies under the terms of the Treaty of Paris.
As a U.S. territory, American citizens residing on the island are disenfranchised at the national level and do not vote for president and vice president of the United States. Congress approved a local constitution, allowing U.S. citizens on the territory to elect a governor. A 2012 referendum showed a majority (54% of those who voted) disagreed with "the present form of territorial status", with full statehood the preferred option among those who voted for a change of status, although a significant number of people did not answer the second question of the referendum.
Another fifth referendum was held on June 11, 2017, with "Statehood" and "Independence/Free Association" initially as the only available choices. At the recommendation of the Department of Justice, an option for the "current territorial status" was added. The referendum showed an overwhelming support for statehood, with 97.18% voting for it, although the voter turnout had a historically low figure of only 22.99% of the registered voters casting their ballots."
In early 2017, the Puerto Rican government-debt crisis posed serious problems for the government. The outstanding bond debt had climbed to $70 billion at a time with 12.4% unemployment. ... By early August 2017, the debt was $72 billion with a 45% poverty rate.

In 1947, the U.S. granted Puerto Ricans the right to democratically elect their own governor.
Hmmm. In 1950, there was a three-day revolt against the United States.
The Constitution of Puerto Rico was approved by a Constitutional Convention on February 6, 1952, and 82% of the voters in a March referendum.
During the 1950s and 1960s, Puerto Rico experienced rapid industrialization, due in large part to Operación Manos a la Obra ("Operation Bootstrap"), an offshoot of FDR's New Deal. It was intended to transform Puerto Rico's economy from agriculture-based to manufacturing-based to provide more jobs. Puerto Rico has become a major tourist destination, as well as a global center for pharmaceutical manufacturing.

Four plebiscites have been held since the late 20th century to resolve the political status. The 2012 referendum showed a majority (54% of the voters) in favor of a change in status, with full statehood the preferred option of those who wanted a change. Because there were almost 500,000 blank ballots in the 2012 referendum, creating confusion as to the voters' true desire, Congress decided to ignore the vote.

Yes, statehood has been considered, even voted on earlier this year.
I'm skipping that as this note is already too long for me to read.
It's also pretty confusing, as if "they" keep discussing PR's status
& what it should become, yet it remains in legal limbo.

Former Governor Aníbal Acevedo Vilá (2005–2009) is convinced that statehood is not the solution for either the U.S. or for Puerto Rico "for economic, identity and cultural reasons". He pointed out that voter turnout for the 2017 referendum was extremely low, and suggests that a different type of mutually-beneficial relationship should be found.
Governor Ricardo Rosselló is strongly in favor of statehood to help develop the economy and help to "solve our 500-year-old colonial dilemma ... Colonialism is not an option .... It’s a civil rights issue ... 3.5 million citizens seeking an absolute democracy," he told the news media. Benefits of statehood include an additional $10 billion per year in federal funds, the right to vote in presidential elections, higher Social Security and Medicare benefits, and a right for its government agencies and municipalities to file for bankruptcy. The latter is currently prohibited.
Since 1953, the UN has been considering the political status of Puerto Rico and how to assist it in achieving "independence" or "decolonization". In 1978, the Special Committee determined that a "colonial relationship" existed between the US and Puerto Rico.

Has the island's main commerce been Tourism & Agriculture?
It has ATM little or no industry?
Or it has industry, but the workers don't get much money?
Do they have the same minimum wage as here in the states?

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 9:13 PM

12 ways we can get Trump to focus his attention on Puerto Rico
https://www.yahoo.com/news/12-ways-trump-focus-attention-193252599.htm
l

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 12:43 AM

WISHIMAY

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate;

Not knocking you here Oon, but...if you didn't know anyone there, would you still have posted on it?

I don't know anyone who has ever been there, and something tells me they wouldn't care if America gets wiped off the map. From what I hear, the people don't want to be a state of the US, it's their politicians that do and only because they think it'll fix things easy. But, that's just what I gathered from comments the last time P.R. was brought up in the news a few years ago. I'm sure they wanna be a state NOW that they are in deep kimchi.

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 12:55 AM

Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 4:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate;

Not knocking you here Oon, but...if you didn't know anyone there, would you still have posted on it?

I don't know anyone who has ever been there, and something tells me they wouldn't care if America gets wiped off the map. From what I hear, the people don't want to be a state of the US, it's their politicians that do and only because they think it'll fix things easy. But, that's just what I gathered from comments the last time P.R. was brought up in the news a few years ago. I'm sure they wanna be a state NOW that they are in deep kimchi.

O, I know, Wishi!!
And no one else in here ever hijacks a thread just to
air a fear/grievance or talk about themselves or family.

Stick to the topic; be objective ... I'll try to remember that. :)

When I find out what happened to my pal and his kitty, I'm
gonna post it in here anyways.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 5:00 AM

Curious responses from all. As far as Puerto Rico being a US Territory, I knew.
Actually it's a Commonwealth. There was also mention of the U.S. Virgin Islands, of course I expected no response.

There's also another territory that has recently been in the news regarding another deep boner by the Orange One - Guam. And finally, there's Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa.

Quote:
Puerto Rico and the Northern Mariana Islands in the Pacific Ocean belong to the United States and have the status of Commonwealth, a legal and political status that is above a territory but still below a state. Commonwealth status once inevitably led to statehood, but such a progression is no longer automatic. Congress and the Commonwealth work together to fashion a political system that is acceptable to both parties.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I dunno, Shiney.

I tried to tell 'em in the Irma thread, but like most folks & our
so-called PotUS ... no one seems to get it:
Puerto Rico is a US protectorate;

Not knocking you here Oon, but...if you didn't know anyone there, would you still have posted on it?

I don't know anyone who has ever been there, and something tells me they wouldn't care if America gets wiped off the map. From what I hear, the people don't want to be a state of the US, it's their politicians that do and only because they think it'll fix things easy. But, that's just what I gathered from comments the last time P.R. was brought up in the news a few years ago. I'm sure they wanna be a state NOW that they are in deep kimchi.

O, I know, Wishi!!
And no one else in here ever hijacks a thread just to
air a fear/grievance or talk about themselves or family.

Stick to the topic; be objective ... I'll try to remember that. :)

When I find out what happened to my pal and his kitty, I'm
gonna post it in here anyways.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 5:15 AM

Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.

I'd bet anything that Trump, the Dickhead-in-Chief, didn't have a fucking clue.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 6:13 AM

Months ago, when my friend said he was moving from Nicaragua
to Puerto Rico, because it has a VA hospital ... that's when
I knew: Puerto Rico is connected to the USA some way, 'cause
it has a VA hospital. ... My friend had surgery there shortly
after he arrived.
Someone found a kitten on the road & gave it to him. I told
him, "We're too old to be adopting pets. They might outlive us
& who would take care of them?" He agreed, but there was no
turning back then.
He laughed when Harvey came by & did only minor damage.
I got an eMail from him on the 19th. That's all he wrote.
Then Maria hit. Not knowing the extent of the damage at first,
I started checking his Facebook page twice a day ... but every
kind of communication is down except passenger pigeons.

(sigh)
... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 9:11 AM

WISHIMAY

I wasn't saying you can't post about people you know, I was discussing why P.R. is the US's red-headed stepchild. As much as 6ix agreeing with me makes me nauseous, all the people tweeting that Trump doesn't care about P.R. only care because they know someone there.

Laughing at a two hundred mile wide tornado is bad judgment. Living on an island with little resources or ability to escape from in imminent danger is bad judgment.

I seriously hope your friend is ok. But just like the people who live in mobile homes in hurricane prone areas, I'm not sure other people's bad judgment is my responsibility. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to live on an island, but I don't because I couldn't afford to, and I couldn't afford a decent structure and lots of backup supplies. That's just common sense.

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 11:35 AM

And.... Are you showing me your Google-Fu? I could probably type just "Puerto Rico" in the Google search bar and get that paragraph on the first page of hits. Doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 10:22 PM

@Six: "... P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit."

Indeed. All I knew about it is
1. It's an island;
2. My friend is living there;
3. He got the help he needed from the VA;
4. He sounds fairly pleased his new home. So good on him!

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 10:23 PM

As I continue to follow the story in Puerto Rico, I find a lot of very
discouraging headlines, such as these two:

In Puerto Rico, Containers Full Of Goods Sit Undistributed At Ports
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/28/554297787/puerto-ric
o-relief-goods-sit-undistributed-at-ports

Puerto Rico, short on fuel, cannot deliver food and medicine to the victims of Hurricane Maria
•4,500 containers/trucks filled with supplies are stuck at the Port of San Juan.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/28/puerto-ricos-fuel-supply-breaks-down-i
n-the-wake-of-marias-devastation.html

There must be an amazing degree of incompetence there for the situation to be this way.
Is it the leaders' fault, the foremen, the workers?
The people are in desperate need of supplies; the supplies have arrived, now it's
intermission - time out?, "Sorry folks, nothing can be done"?

It doesn't compute.

But apparently, PR was in pretty bad shape before the Storm.

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Thursday, September 28, 2017 10:41 PM

That does sound terrible. I can't imagine what the people there are going through.

I've heard stories from people who have helped out in similar situations in the past that go the same way. It's just a terrible situation. I don't think there's anybody there that's lording over all the fuel for themselves and are to blame for things not going to help people who need it. Did anybody bother sending an oil tanker or two along with all of those supplies? The infrastructure is gone. I'm sure even if there was fuel it will take a long time to get the goods to people because of the devastation that must be littering what used to be streets. You could probably travel half a mile and then have to stop for half a day to clear out the next stretch of road. Add to all of this that they're surrounded by ocean. It's not as if they can send a bunch of bobcats in to clear up the debris. Most of that work I'm sure is being done by hand.

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Friday, September 29, 2017 4:18 AM

Bad judgment!? Wow....now that's real deep. So the millions of people that live in California along the San Andreas fault, and that live near forests have "bad judgment" - I'll remember that next time I hear of an earthquake or forest fire in California.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I wasn't saying you can't post about people you know, I was discussing why P.R. is the US's red-headed stepchild. As much as 6ix agreeing with me makes me nauseous, all the people tweeting that Trump doesn't care about P.R. only care because they know someone there.

Laughing at a two hundred mile wide tornado is bad judgment. Living on an island with little resources or ability to escape from in imminent danger is bad judgment.

I seriously hope your friend is ok. But just like the people who live in mobile homes in hurricane prone areas, I'm not sure other people's bad judgment is my responsibility. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to live on an island, but I don't because I couldn't afford to, and I couldn't afford a decent structure and lots of backup supplies. That's just common sense.

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Friday, September 29, 2017 4:20 AM

Yeah, what you said is true.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
And.... Are you showing me your Google-Fu? I could probably type just "Puerto Rico" in the Google search bar and get that paragraph on the first page of hits. Doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

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Friday, September 29, 2017 4:43 AM

That "pretty bad shape" that you mention is a fiscal fiasco of millions of dollars owed to American banks and Wall Street, from the little I understand about the situation before Maria hit. But we're talking about a natural disaster, people possibly dying, which includes the elderly and newborns that can't fend for themselves. Hospitals have generators but they need gas to run them. The basic necessities are needed - food, water, shelter. Nothing more than that.

And, despite Wish's rather interesting comment regarding "bad judgment," I do not think along those lines. For some reason, the United States government chose Puerto Rico to be, first a territory, then a Commonwealth. That "island in the middle of the ocean," as the Dumpster so aptly put it, is significant enough for the U.S.A. to give it consideration, that I hesitate to think....why? Anywho, here we are. The U.S. is stupid enough to give this little island in the middle of the ocean Commonwealth status (and once considered making it a state). Oh and despite what Six thinks, they were given a choice and voted to become a state. What has happened to that is anybody's guess.

So, like it or not....Puerto Ricans are American citizens. They pay taxes and serve in the military. Let's see the Donald say that.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:

As I continue to follow the story in Puerto Rico, I find a lot of very
discouraging headlines, such as these two:

In Puerto Rico, Containers Full Of Goods Sit Undistributed At Ports
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/28/554297787/puerto-ric
o-relief-goods-sit-undistributed-at-ports

Puerto Rico, short on fuel, cannot deliver food and medicine to the victims of Hurricane Maria
•4,500 containers/trucks filled with supplies are stuck at the Port of San Juan.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/28/puerto-ricos-fuel-supply-breaks-down-i
n-the-wake-of-marias-devastation.html

There must be an amazing degree of incompetence there for the situation to be this way.
Is it the leaders' fault, the foremen, the workers?
The people are in desperate need of supplies; the supplies have arrived, now it's
intermission - time out?, "Sorry folks, nothing can be done"?

It doesn't compute.

But apparently, PR was in pretty bad shape before the Storm.

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Friday, September 29, 2017 5:09 AM

Six, let me fill you in:

The roads are strewn with debris, power lines, knocked down trees and pieces of houses, concrete and otherwise. Roofs literally blown off. Local bridges that connect small towns to main roads are partially or completely destroyed, making delivery of goods and services nearly impossible.

I saw a video of a man who was reunited with his sister after nearly a week of not knowing whether or not she was alive. A grandmother is rationing water and crackers to her grandchildren (that water was obtained through an ingenious PVC pipe configuration capturing local river water by a local mechanic from the town). There is gas in the gas stations, but, due to power grid failure, is hard to come by.
People line up for hours to get a couple of gallons per person to run generators and for the cars not ruined by the flood. There's so many horror stories about survival coming out of there.

Puerto Rico as a whole, accepted evacuees from the Virgin Islands devastated by Irma. Neighbors are helping neighbors (a Puerto Rican trait). Jennifr Lopez donated a million dollars, as did Alex Rodriguez (who isn't Puerto Rican), so did Pitbull, a local rapper named Daddy Yankee, actress Rosie Perez (who has family there), latin singer Marc Anthony as well. It was announced that Jay-Z and others are going to organize a concert to raise money for relief.

I saw a video on Facebook where a truck driver was desperately trying to reach there to volunteer to drive the trucks filled with food, medicine and water left on the docks. But he and the doctor that was traveling with him have been denied passage to PR. The people there are in need of truck drivers and medical people - doctors, nurses and paramedics. Who the fuck is running things over there? Last I heard the Army has been deployed. Finally some action.

These folks are survivors though, and I believe they'll be okay. They will live off the land until time comes that they can live somewhat as they did before Maria.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
That does sound terrible. I can't imagine what the people there are going through.

I've heard stories from people who have helped out in similar situations in the past that go the same way. It's just a terrible situation. I don't think there's anybody there that's lording over all the fuel for themselves and are to blame for things not going to help people who need it. Did anybody bother sending an oil tanker or two along with all of those supplies? The infrastructure is gone. I'm sure even if there was fuel it will take a long time to get the goods to people because of the devastation that must be littering what used to be streets. You could probably travel half a mile and then have to stop for half a day to clear out the next stretch of road. Add to all of this that they're surrounded by ocean. It's not as if they can send a bunch of bobcats in to clear up the debris. Most of that work I'm sure is being done by hand.

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Friday, September 29, 2017 5:19 AM

Listen, I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but I personally know (or knew) 5 Puerto Rican men who served in the military:

2 older men who served in Korea. 2 who served in Vietnam and one who served in Iraq.
Oh and a woman who also served in Iraq (she now has a son who joined the Marines).

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
And.... Are you showing me your Google-Fu? I could probably type just "Puerto Rico" in the Google search bar and get that paragraph on the first page of hits. Doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and have served in every war since WWI.

Puerto Ricans fought alongside the American colonists in the Revolutionary War, but they were under Spanish rule at the time. They have distinguished themselves in battle throughout their history. They have 4 Medal of Honor recipients. Puerto Ricans have served in the major branches of the Armed Forces.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Yup.

And I don't believe the stat that 50% of people knew what P.R.'s status was anyway. That number is a thinly veiled knock on the half of the country that voted for Trump, obviously.

Now everybody is an "expert" on P.R.'s status, when a few weeks ago nobody knew or gave a shit.

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Friday, September 29, 2017 6:24 AM

Puerto Ricans are human beings, just like the rest of us. I don't buy into any talk about how they have "noble traits" or any such nonsense. There's just as many shitty Puerto Ricans as there are any other race, and stories of rich celebrities donating cash isn't going to change that.

You're not "filling me in" about anything. I already know what is going on down there, and I already said what you just said to me. It's a terrible, terrible clusterfuck on that island right now. A real life nightmare. I feel sorry for them.

I feel sorry for any people you personally know and care about that are going through it. It sucks. I'm just sick of people exploiting every event under the sun for political agendas. At least 90% of Americans had no idea what Puerto Rico's status was before this event happened. I'm willing to be that even now more then 60% of them couldn't even point out PR on a map if you took their smartphone away from them.

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Friday, September 29, 2017 9:31 PM

Google: 195 countries

"There are 195 countries in the world today. This total comprises 193 countries
that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member
observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine."

Pretty sure I never heard of half of them.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Friday, September 29, 2017 11:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Google: 195 countries

"There are 195 countries in the world today. This total comprises 193 countries
that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member
observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine."

Pretty sure I never heard of half of them.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

Thank you for illustrating the point, Oonj. :)

Holy See, Holy Do???

I never even knew that's what the Pope Palace was called until today. Never knew that only two entities were not part of the U.N. as well.

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 11:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

WHat this tells me (along with Katrina) is that, for a disaster of truly monstrous proportions .... you're on your own, for at least two weeks, maybe three. The idea of preparing for 72 hours is hogwash. It's going to be you and your neighbors, digging out, for the foreseeable future.

The only entity large enough, and with the equipment and skill set big enough, to handle emergencies which involve millions of people is the National Guard and the Corps of Engineers.

A TRULY proactive stance, for PR, or New Orleans, or LA (buried under earthquake rubble) would look like this ....

Two days before the hurricane strikes

We will need to assess the island's needs in absence of reliable communication, we need ___________ transport helicopters and crew to overfly the island multiple times, identifying remote or inaccessible areas and estimate damage. If possible, land the aircraft and speak with the people to ID their critical needs.

There will be up to 3 million people at risk. Everyone will need ten gallons of fresh water for a week. Start by gathering up the first 30 million gallons, stage our water purification units plus all ancillary necessary fuel to be transported to nearest unaffected staging area by the end of the first two days.

Hospitals and other critical services will need generators and fuel. Estimate the number and size of generators. Transport to the staging area. We will helicopter in the supplies and staff if necessary into the affected area from there.

There are _________ planned recipients of water, generators fuel and staff. This will require ________ transport helicopters with a radius of ________ miles which can make _________flights a day. All identified areas of need to be supplies in the first three days.

Roads will be impassible. We will need bulldozers, earthmoving equipment, Corps engineers to build bridges. We will develop staging areas across the island (city) where equipment and fuel and crew can be landed; they will work outward towards the nearest accessible main road."

Anyway, you get the idea. The response doesn't HAVE to be slow-moving, ponderous, and reactive. It COULD be made effective- ready and beginning work, on site in 48 hours, instead of this drip-drip-drip of niggardly, reluctant help.

But seeing as how the Federal government can't seem to do anything but bomb people, if you live in a hazard-prone area, and it's a hazard that could affect over 100,000 people, better be prepared to tough it out for two weeks or more on your own.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 12:21 PM

THGRRI

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Google: 195 countries

"There are 195 countries in the world today. This total comprises 193 countries
that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member
observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine."

Pretty sure I never heard of half of them.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

And Trump is at war with all of them. All but Russia that is.

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 2:50 PM

I've never argued that his wife shouldn't take away his phone privileges.

That being said, I don't really view this as the "attack" that the MSM is portraying it as.

Quote:
"Such poor leadership ability by the mayor of San Juan, and others in Puerto Rico, who are not able to get their workers to help." "They want everything to be done for them when it should be a community effort,"

Sometimes the truth hurts. That doesn't make the truth an attack.

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 5:43 PM

Are there other people up to their waists looking, or is she doing it on her own, or worse yet for a photo op?

A picture of her looking for people doesn't say whether she's an effective leader or not. That is almost completely besides the point.

Maybe your twitter account should be disabled. Censorship much?

I don't like a lot of his tweets either, and he should rein it in. I wouldn't want to live in a country where the President's Twitter account was disabled though. That would mean that nobody was safe from censorship.

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 10:41 PM

Quote:
There's just as many shitty Puerto Ricans as there are any other race, and stories of rich celebrities donating cash isn't going to change that.

There are more than enough SHITTY fucking white people who think their shit don't stink, throughout the fucking world. Just like the shitty fucks in Houston, Florida or Washington D.C. for that matter.

What the fuck does that prove?

I'm talking about the good people in general, both here in the U.S. and in Puerto Rico. What exactly is your problem with me even mentioning that there are good people everywhere? And yes, there are bad, evil motherfuckers who don't give a shit.
Fuck 'em - the good people will win out every fucking time. Pure and simple.

Really 90%!? Political agenda!? Yeah Trump likes to exploit it at every opportunity.
Shame really. And yeah, the island is so insignificant that the United States government ignored it back in 1898, when they took it from Spain, who also couldn't find it on the map if they tried. So yeah, it's not important at all. And there's Wall Street, they have much trouble finding it as well. And all those major corporations, they need Google Earth as well to find this tiny island.

Don't worry, you'll get nothing more from me.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Puerto Ricans are human beings, just like the rest of us. I don't buy into any talk about how they have "noble traits" or any such nonsense. There's just as many shitty Puerto Ricans as there are any other race, and stories of rich celebrities donating cash isn't going to change that.

You're not "filling me in" about anything. I already know what is going on down there, and I already said what you just said to me. It's a terrible, terrible clusterfuck on that island right now. A real life nightmare. I feel sorry for them.

I feel sorry for any people you personally know and care about that are going through it. It sucks. I'm just sick of people exploiting every event under the sun for political agendas. At least 90% of Americans had no idea what Puerto Rico's status was before this event happened. I'm willing to be that even now more then 60% of them couldn't even point out PR on a map if you took their smartphone away from them.

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 10:50 PM

The response by some here is just a by product of believing that terrible fuck who's occupying the Oval Office. He belittles others to lift himself up and stroke his own ego, among other things, and satisfy his followers, who follow blindly and without question - you know, like sheep (to the slaughter).

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Google: 195 countries

"There are 195 countries in the world today. This total comprises 193 countries
that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member
observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine."

Pretty sure I never heard of half of them.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 11:26 PM

I don't have any problem with you talking about good people.

Look at your phrasing. Then look at your last response to me just seething with mixed feelings of hatered and guilt about white people. That's where I'm coming from.

I'm sure there are some great people on the island. I'm sure there's a LOT of shitty people on the island too.

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 11:42 PM

Bullshit, I call bullshit. I repeated exactly what you said. There are shitty fucking people in this world. Fuck shitty people! Every last one of them. We don't need to mention them because, as we all know, they exist.....why, oh why do we need to acknowledge them, they do enough fucking damage.

Now is the time for good people to step up. Pure and fucking simple!

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I don't have any problem with you talking about good people.

Look at your phrasing. Then look at your last response to me just seething with mixed feelings of hatered and guilt about white people. That's where I'm coming from.

I'm sure there are some great people on the island. I'm sure there's a LOT of shitty people on the island too.

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Saturday, September 30, 2017 11:57 PM

Let me break it down further...the majority of the people who live on the island are of Hispanic descent...there are others who also live there, white, black, Asian, etc. So your comment about shitty people goes to race now, doesn't it?

I took it along those lines to prove a point. You have shitty people everywhere, white, black, Asian, Hispanic, you name it, we have it. And so, I said what I said in response to your comment. Truth, as you have said, hurts. But I was speaking of good people, and yes there are people there from FEMA and now the Army. Good!

No one, except you, was talking about the negative. I am not there so I don't know what's happening on the ground, but I have seen video on Facebook from people on the ground, and those who are trying to reach there to help. GOOD FUCKING PEOPLE...
Like I said, a trucker and a doctor looking to reach the island to help. They stated that they were Puerto Ricans looking to help.

As for the evil fucks of this world, again I say, FUCK 'EM. I couldn't care less about them. You trying to put words in my mouth, well, I rebuke that effort.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I don't have any problem with you talking about good people.

Look at your phrasing. Then look at your last response to me just seething with mixed feelings of hatered and guilt about white people. That's where I'm coming from.

I'm sure there are some great people on the island. I'm sure there's a LOT of shitty people on the island too.

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 12:40 AM

At 6StringJoker: You are petty and immature. You don't have anything interesting or useful to say. All you do is try to invalidate everyone else. Not much of a contribution, is it?

All you do is try to invalidate everyone else. Does that make you feel Superior? Because if it does, then you are truly pathetic.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 12:53 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Anyway, you get the idea. The response doesn't HAVE to be slow-moving, ponderous, and reactive. It COULD be made effective- ready and beginning work, on site in 48 hours, instead of this drip-drip-drip of niggardly, reluctant help.

But seeing as how the Federal government can't seem to do anything but bomb people, if you live in a hazard-prone area, and it's a hazard that could affect over 100,000 people, better be prepared to tough it out for two weeks or more on your own.

https://andrewtobias.com/puerto-ricos-3-4-million-american-citizens/

All Americans should be horrified by the depth of the tragedy in Puerto Rico. While we can’t forget our friends who are suffering in Texas and Florida — especially in the Keys — the Puerto Rican tragedy is on a different scale.

. . . The apocalyptic destruction combined with large-scale suffering reminds me of the scenes of devastation and isolation I saw after Hurricane Andrew demolished the suburbs south of Miami in August 1992. . . . In the end, the U.S. Army was required to bring order to the madness.

. . . civilian systems for dealing with a major disaster cannot handle a cataclysm, no matter the skill of the administrators or the intensity of the effort.

. . . The U.S. military is increasingly becoming involved in the Puerto Rican response effort, which is a good sign, but the comparisons with the eventual Andrew response are stark. The Andrew catastrophe zone was, perhaps, 250 square miles and involved about 350,000 people — closer to 100,000 after those that could resettle elsewhere did. It took about 20,000 troops and military-support personnel to provide security, housing, communications, and other critical services after Andrew. They were still operating the Homestead tent city eight months after the storm.

Puerto Rico is about 3,500 square miles and home to about 3.4 million people. Having seen firsthand the crisis that developed in the first few weeks after Andrew, and the seeming endlessness of the 1992 disaster zone, it is impossible for me to imagine the scope of the calamity engulfing Puerto Rico. And, having learned that only the military has the ability to deliver men, materiel, organization and leadership in the time frame required, I am left to wonder why that Andrew lesson wasn’t applied to this catastrophic situation, which is at least an order of magnitude larger.

FEMA should have planned for this possible, foreseeable — and now entirely real — catastrophe the week before Maria hit, not the week after. If 20,000 troops were required in Homestead, a much larger force is required in Puerto Rico.

And what an opportunity to put Puerto Rican American citizens to work building modern, resilient infrastructure for the next 100 years — an effort that in itself would kick start their troubled economy . . . and for far less than we’ve spent trying to build Iraq.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 1:26 AM

I'm not invalidating anybody else. I'm just not going to sit here and feel like somehow the shit that went down over there is my fault because I'm a white dude that voted for Trump.

I didn't make this about race. Other people did. I've got to hear about "Puerto Rican" traits about neighbors helping neighbors as if there aren't any white people who do the same fucking thing when something awful happens.

THIS is what the Democratic party has done to the country with its identity politics. Everything is about race or sex or some other identity bullshit now.

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 3:20 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm not invalidating anybody else. . . . THIS is what the Democratic party has done to the country with its identity politics. Everything is about race or sex or some other identity bullshit now.

You missed one characteristic: money. Responding to a hurricane in Puerto Rico with even half as much generosity as Hurricane Andrew (1992) in Florida will cost so many billions of dollars that it will interfere with Trump's planned tax cut FOR HIMSELF. America cannot afford to reduce the inheritance tax for the Trump family estate to zero and cut the Trump family's quarterly income tax payments and also pay for Puerto Rico. Trump knows this, I know this, and now you know this. That is why Trump is whining about the Puerto Ricans. Trump won't get his personal tax cut because of them. It is not about identity politics. It's about Trump's money.

www.cnn.com/2017/09/30/us/puerto-rico-responds-to-trump-tweets/index.h
tml

Trump’s “Give the Rich a Break” Tax Plan
https://angrybearblog.com/2017/09/trumps-give-the-rich-a-break-tax-pla
n.html

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 6:17 AM

6StringJoker: "Everything is about race or sex or some
other identity bullshit now."

Second: "You missed one characteristic: money."

Oonj: Right! Most things are about money. The only
concern that trumps money is survival.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:29 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Trump cannot reform the tax code in his family's favor if Puerto Rico absorbs tax money. Trump wants to pretend that he is not a beneficiary of changes in the Code that particularly benefit the ultra-wealthy.

That comes to the surface now because of his claims in an Indianapolis speech that he would not receive any benefit from the so-called “reform” tax “framework” put out by Trump and the GOP leadership. We know from 2005 returns that he has, at least in that year, had to pay $31 million in Alternative Minimum Taxes (AMT) in a year when he would otherwise have paid very little in taxes. That is, in fact, the purpose of the AMT–to force wealthy taxpayers to pay some tax on their incomes when they otherwise have the ability to take advantage of so many loopholes that they would get off pretty much tax free. So we know that Trump lied when he said in Indianapolis that he would not get a benefit from his own tax proposal. His tax proposal would eliminate the AMT backstop for wealthy payment of at least some taxes. That would directly benefit Trump. He lied.

Trump would also directly benefit from the elimination of the Estate Tax. That is a tax that is very low at this point, because of decades of GOP whittling away at it to reduce it to zero on behalf of their wealthy donors. When a married couple with $11 million in assets die, their estate would not pay any estate tax, because there is an exemption for the first $11 million for a couple. On the rest of the estate above $11 million (a size of estate of those in the top 1% of the distribution), the tax rate is now exceedingly low–only 35%. Trump’s plan would reduce it to zero. He said in the Indianapolis speech that eliminating the estate tax would help middle class people, small family farms, and small businesses. He lied. Only the wealthy pay any estate tax (see above). Very few small businesses and family farms are subject to the estate tax at all–estimates say there would be only about 80 in a given calendar year at this point. Of those that are subject to it, the amount subject to the estate tax is only the excess over the exemption amount. And family farms get 14 years to pay off any tax like that the heirs might owe, through a provision for installment payment intended to help preserve family farms and allow them to pay the tax due, if any, over time out of the operating profits of the business. So, again, Trump lied.

Trump also would likely benefit huugely from the reduction of rates on corporations, through getting more dividends out of the even higher corporate profits that would result (to the extent that he has investments in corporate stock, which are likely substantial, since most of the financial assets in this country are owned by those in the very tip-top of the income and wealth distribution). So, again, Trump lied.

Trump would also likely benefit bigly from the reduction of rates on pass-through income from real estate partnerships and hedge funds. The Trump empire is clearly in real estate, and there are likely quite a few partnerships in the structure of the Trump companies. Since otherwise passthrough income is currently taxed at the individual partner’s personal income tax rate, a 25% rate on income that would currently be taxed at a 39.6% rate (including the tax on investment income), is a 14.6% lower rate or more than a 1/3 reduction in the tax rate on the income. So, again, Trump lied.

https://angrybearblog.com/2017/09/trumps-refusal-to-release-his-own-ta
x-returns-and-californias-legislature.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:58 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

As the crisis continues in Puerto Rico, there is one thing Trump — and only Trump — could do right now to help: ask for more money.

Addressing the situation will require a lot of federal money. Trump is the one person who can ask for this funding and get the process started in Congress.

It's going to require Congress to pass a relief package to free up more federal dollars to fix the island's infrastructure problems. But first, the White House needs to send a request to Congress for the money. Trump hasn't even gotten that started.

Federal workers are doing what they can to help Puerto Rico respond with the minimal amount of resources. But that won't be enough to rebuild the island.

“So mad I could spit”: a former disaster relief official on Trump’s response to Puerto Rico. He described the Trump administration’s response as “malpractice.”

The mayor of San Juan is begging for help from federal officials as Puerto Rico recovers from Hurricane Maria. Meanwhile, from his New Jersey golf club, Trump responded by starting a feud with her on Twitter.

www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/9/30/16389640/puerto-rico-disaster
-relief

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 2:06 PM

Well I guess that Trump has already decided that he won't be building anything on an island in the middle of an ocean that is rising then. Probably not a bad idea.

I find it quite amusing that nobody is seeing the bigger picture here. The US and the EU have been FORCED to take on millions of economic refugees from countries that HATE us.

Why aren't we even discussing doing the same with Puerto Ricans now?

If Puerto Rico were a house in my town, it would be condemned. You wouldn't even be allowed to re-build on the land because of the chances that this would happen again. It would be much cheaper to relocate the people than to throw a bunch of money at a problem that will only HAPPEN AGAIN IN TIME.

I thought you were a proponent of planning for the future Second. How much money should be wasted rebuilding the entire island until the next big hurricane wipes them out again, or until the sea level rises and the only people living on the island are Kevin Kostner from Waterworld?

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 3:33 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Well I guess that Trump has already decided that he won't be building anything on an island in the middle of an ocean that is rising then. Probably not a bad idea.

I find it quite amusing that nobody is seeing the bigger picture here. The US and the EU have been FORCED to take on millions of economic refugees from countries that HATE us.

Why aren't we even discussing doing the same with Puerto Ricans now?

If Puerto Rico were a house in my town, it would be condemned. You wouldn't even be allowed to re-build on the land because of the chances that this would happen again. It would be much cheaper to relocate the people than to throw a bunch of money at a problem that will only HAPPEN AGAIN IN TIME.

I thought you were a proponent of planning for the future Second. How much money should be wasted rebuilding the entire island until the next big hurricane wipes them out again, or until the sea level rises and the only people living on the island are Kevin Kostner from Waterworld?

You're talking fantasy, not reality. I am all for taking a time machine to visit President William McKinley in 1898 and warning him not to accept Puerto Rico as part of the peace treaty with Spain, but that is not really an option for Trump to make this Spain's problem rather than his problem. President Trump has to deal with Puerto Rico, as it is today, but he is not doing anything more mentally strenuous than tweeting:

Retired Lieutenant General Russel Honoré, who won applause for turning around the chaotic Katrina relief effort 12 years ago, put Trump’s attacks on the San Juan mayor in clear contrast during a CNN interview Saturday.

“The mayor's living on a cot, and I hope the president has a good day at golf,” Honoré said, alluding to Trump’s weekend at his luxurious Bedminster Club in New Jersey.

Trump’s response this weekend is shocking not just because he is attacking public officials desperate to get aid for their people, but because his denunciation of press coverage verges on fantasy. Not for the first time, Trump seeks to deny the plain truth of news reports, but in this case there is no shortage of visual evidence to confirm the destruction. Even if he thinks he can fool mainlanders, Trump is also demanding that Puerto Ricans believe him, rather than their lying eyes:

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
To the people of Puerto Rico:
Do not believe the #FakeNews!#PRStrong
2:53 PM - Sep 30, 2017
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/914216744385904640

It’s hard to imagine this would convince a Puerto Rican.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/trump-san-juan-mayor/5416
65/

I will be pleased to get the same millionaire's tax break that Trump is also maneuvering for himself because I am not the President breaking his oath of office by abandoning Puerto Rico because it interferes with his tax reform plans and increasing his family's wealth.

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 4:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
You're talking fantasy, not reality. I am all for taking a time machine to visit President William McKinley in 1898 and warning him not to accept Puerto Rico as part of the peace treaty with Spain, but that is not really an option for Trump to make this Spain's problem rather than his problem.

What are you talking about?

I'm actually suggesting opening up a discussion about taking actual refugees from Puerto Rico here, rather than try to re-build an island that should just be condemned. I'm not talking about pawning that off on Spain or telling these people to get fucked.

I think we should immediately stop taking any Muslim refugees in because the ideology is poison and they are NOT OUR PROBLEM, but I'm not opposed to doing that for any Puerto Ricans who want the help. There would just have to be a reasonable effort made to ensure that they actually try to get employment and aren't a total drain on society once they're here. It would be much cheaper than throwing money at an island that's eventually going to sink anyway.

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 7:55 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
You're talking fantasy, not reality. I am all for taking a time machine to visit President William McKinley in 1898 and warning him not to accept Puerto Rico as part of the peace treaty with Spain, but that is not really an option for Trump to make this Spain's problem rather than his problem.

What are you talking about?

I'm actually suggesting opening up a discussion about taking actual refugees from Puerto Rico here, rather than try to re-build an island that should just be condemned. I'm not talking about pawning that off on Spain or telling these people to get fucked.

I think we should immediately stop taking any Muslim refugees in because the ideology is poison and they are NOT OUR PROBLEM, but I'm not opposed to doing that for any Puerto Ricans who want the help. There would just have to be a reasonable effort made to ensure that they actually try to get employment and aren't a total drain on society once they're here. It would be much cheaper than throwing money at an island that's eventually going to sink anyway.

Your solution will cost the price of a one-way plane ticket for each Puerto Rican to some location within the USA picked by Donald J Trump. He could apply your solution to Hurricane Harvey and it would be a whole lot cheaper throwing Texans on a flight out of Houston than to rebuild Houston. But take note, even Trump didn't suggest abandoning Houston, unlike you abandoning Puerto Rico. The last time I heard the Rebuild Houston option costs $150,000,000,000. Plane tickets to California would be cheaper and if Trump places enough flood damaged Texas Republicans there, he could win California in 2020.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, October 1, 2017 9:11 PM

So what you're really trying to say is that Trump is in a no-win situation and no matter what he did you'd have something to bitch about.

Tell me something I don't know.

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Monday, October 2, 2017 12:02 AM