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I shouldn’t have to write this article. And yet, here we are...

I don’t care who you are or how much Palmer Report you read: accusing someone who disagrees with you of conducting psyops for a foreign government is never, ever a normal or acceptable way of conducting political discourse.

I tweeted the above yesterday after noticing another uptick in the bizarre habit establishment loyalists

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have of labeling anyone who disagrees with them as Russian trolls. And, though I didn’t address it to her and made no mention of her, Louise Mensch took it personally.

This led to a deluge of fascinating interactions with Mensch’s followers, in which I was sincerely informed that Twitter has admitted to half of its users being Russian agents, though it is likely more. I was also called a Russian agent many, many times, because saying it’s not okay to accuse a stranger you disagree with of being a Russian agent is just the sort of thing a Russian agent would say.

Well, let me start off this weird, stupid article that I shouldn’t have to write by saying that I myself am not a Russian agent. I’ve never been to Russia, I have no ties to the Russian government, I rarely use sources in my articles that have ties to Russia, and to the best of my knowledge none of my patrons are Russian. I say this not because I feel a need to defend these foam-brained accusations but to point out that it is, in fact, very possible to disagree with the establishment Russia narrative without being incentivized to in rubles.

Political discourse between establishment loyalists and everyone else has been trampled to death by the gratuitous use of this obnoxious debate-avoiding tactic.

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Everyone who publicly questions the MSNBC Russia narrative will be met with these accusations. Everyone who speaks about it with much of an online following will receive these accusations on a daily basis.

This is not normal.

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Anti-Trumpists have been trained over the last year by people like Rachel Maddow, Louise Mensch, and the Palmer Report to believe that accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being a Russian agent is a normal thing that sane people do, but they are wrong. It is a bizarre, obnoxious tactic, and when you use it, you are admitting that you have no argument.

The accusation would not be baseless. You should remind yourself what the USIC's official report said on the matter of Russian interference. — Louise Mensch (@LouiseMensch) November 27, 2017

Yes it would indeed be a baseless accusation, @LouiseMensch. You do not know who is and is not a Kremlin agent, and the odds that you are interacting with one are rare. If you have to resort to baseless accusations of Russian espionage, you are admitting you have no argument. — Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) November 27, 2017

In the unlikely event that any Louise Mensch types are still reading at this point, let me explain how normal online discourse operates:

Party A presents a position on an issue.

Party B presents a rebuttal to the position, often supplemented with links substantiating their claim.

Party A returns with their own counter-argument and their own substantiations.

Repeat this back-and-forth for as long as both parties remain interested.

The civility with which this discourse takes place varies wildly, and it can leave both parties feeling like they wasted an hour or two of their lives talking to a brick wall. But it can also be very informative to people watching, it can often lead to one party realizing that their argument isn’t nearly as strong as their partisan echo chamber had led them to believe it was, and it can cause both parties to do more research and rigorous thinking as they strive to come up with a compelling case.

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It can even lead to someone realizing that they don’t know nearly as much about a given issue as they thought they did and privately questioning their previous assumptions.

Conversations like this are socially enriching and lead to a more intelligent and better-informed humanity.

Compare that to:

Party A presents a position on an issue.

Party B accuses party A of conducting psyops for a foreign government.

Discussion ends.

These accusations always kill dialogue. And they are meant to. It is a safe way of slamming the door on ideas which make the person who uses this tactic uncomfortable.

There is no legitimate reason to ever accuse a stranger you disagree with of being a Russian agent. Firstly, you cannot possibly know that the stranger you’re dialoguing with works for the Kremlin. Secondly, even in the highly unlikely event that the person you are speaking to really is a secret Russian agent, you should still be able to out-debate them.

Kremlin trolls don’t have magical powers. They can’t hypnotize you. If you’re interacting with one they’ll be advancing arguments and ideas just like anyone else, and if your arguments and ideas are defensible you should be able to defend them clearly and articulately.

A related accusation is conceding that while it is possible that the individual you are speaking to may not be a paid Kremlin operative, they are at the very least a “useful idiot” who has been brainwashed by Russian propaganda and is unknowingly advancing pernicious ideas. This is also an admission that you have no argument. You’re shutting down dialogue instead of debating your position articulately. You’re also making a fallacious case which assumes from the beginning that nobody could possibly disagree with your omniscient, infallible worldview unless they were deceived by a malevolent party. [But] If your position is defensible, defend it like a normal human being.

I’ve had some success with simply drawing attention to the fact that the person levelling these accusations is using a tactic that is not a normal or acceptable part of political discourse. Individuals with a bit of personal insight

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can get pretty embarrassed when you calmly point out that they’re doing something they know deep down is really weird and unhealthy, so they’ll back away from it once you bring a little self-awareness to their McCarthyite chicken dance. I recommend my readers try it if you ever run into this tactic yourselves.

* * *

Bottom line: when a stranger on the internet accuses you of being a Kremlin agent, of being a “useful idiot”, of “regurgitating Kremlin talking points”, this is simply their way of informing you that they have no argument for the actual thing that you are saying. If you’re using hard facts to point out the gaping plot holes in the Russiagate narrative, for example, and all they can do is call your argument Russian propaganda, this means that they have no counter-argument for the hard facts that you are presenting. They are deliberately shutting down the possibility of any dialogue with you because the cognitive dissonance you are causing them is making them uncomfortable.

Yes, paid shills for governments all over the world do indeed exist. But the odds are much greater that the stranger you are interacting with online is simply a normal person who isn’t convinced by the arguments that have been presented by the position you espouse. If your position is defensible you should be able to argue for it normally, regardless of whom you are speaking to.

Yes, propaganda exists. But what is propaganda other than arguments and ideas? It isn’t witchcraft or wizardry. It isn’t going to melt your face like that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark; you can engage it rationally without plugging your fingers in your ears and screaming “propaganda!”

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In the event that the ideas you are debating against online are indeed the product of government deception, you should be able to debunk them using truth and rationality. If there are lies, point them out using truth and facts. If there are half-truths, bring in the other half of the equation. If there are bad arguments relying on bad thinking, refute them with good arguments and good thinking. The methods of refuting propaganda are the same as the methods of refuting anything else, so it’s stupid to act like plugging your fingers in your ears and screaming “propaganda” is a legitimate tactic.

If “propaganda” can’t be refuted using legitimate debate methods, then what you are calling propaganda looks an awful lot like truth.

I fight what I consider to be establishment propaganda for a living, but if all I ever did was type “that’s propaganda!” over and over again, nobody would ever read my articles. I have to make a compelling case for what actual disinformation is being presented and present clear arguments for why I think they are wrong. The same is true for everyone, even if they believe their position is supported by 17 intelligence agencies and the infinite wisdom of the Palmer Report.

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I find it hilarious that today's sheeple liberals can't make up their mind on whether the people they're arguing against are Communists or Nazis.

Can't be both.

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I retain the distinction but recognise that communists have a rich history of supporting Nazis, and that sometimes history repeats itself. = KRAPO

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Bored on a Monday I see.

So funny - it's like you go out of your way to post things that point right back at you.

Fwiw: I have never accused anyone here of "conducting psyops for a foreign government" or being a nazi.

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Seriously, put your thinking cap on

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"Establishment Loyalist??" Oooo! That sounds terrible!

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Heh - hilarious... you're pointing back at yourself again

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"...Political discourse between (insert personal fav insult here) and everyone else has been trampled to death by the gratuitous use of this obnoxious debate-avoiding tactic." You mean like constantly talking about Hillary and Obama and shouting "collusion!" over and over?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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I retain the distinction but recognise that communists have a rich history of supporting Nazis, and that sometimes history repeats itself. = KRAPO

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Links please?

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"Trotsky and his German supporters pleaded in vain with the Communists to concentrate their efforts on the key issues of the moment, above all the threat of Nazism: "Denying this threat, belittling it, failing to take it seriously is the greatest crime that can be committed today." Instead of the ridiculous accusation that the foremost enemy was "social fascism", he called on the Communists to say the following to the Socialists: "The policies of our parties are irreconcilably opposed, but if the fascists come tonight to your organisation's hall, we will come running, arms in hand, to help you. Will you promise us that if our organisation is threatened you will rush to our aid?"

Alas, this united front was rejected by the Communists. The Trotskyists could do nothing. They were too small an organisation to have any impact on either of the main workers' parties.

There has been some debate about why Germany's Communists became so obsessed with castigating other parts of the left. The key responsibility for this certainly lay with Stalin who, having established a state capitalist dictatorship in Russia, was using the foreign communist movement as a tool of his foreign policy."

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Stalin had a rich history of not fighting the Nazis until he had to.

"Not fighting" is not the same as "supporting", and when push came to shove the Russians fought Nazis in a war in which 20 million Russians were killed, and won the European war against the Nazis.

You're just weird, KPO.

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According to sig, the Russians won the European war. And she claims she's not a Russian troll.


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According to sig, the Russians won the European war. And she claims she's not a Russian troll.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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According to sig, the Russians won the European war. And she claims she's not a Russian troll.

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According to HISTORIANS, the Russians won the war in Europe against the Nazis.

YOU, SON, ARE BLAZINGLY IGNORANT. Everyone who knows anything knows that the Russians won that war for us. I guess THEY must all be "Russian trolls" too??? (We OTOH did more fighting in the Pacific.)

EVEN IN A TV SERIES COMEDY ABOUT WWII, called "Hogan's Heroes", they made backhanded references to the Russian war effort, because being sent to the "eastern front" (i.e Russia) was considered the ultimate punishment/ death sentence.

My god



you're such a boob. How did you grow up to be so uninformed? And how did you manage to STAY so uninformed through your adult life???

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I guess I'll have to read Russia's perspective to understand what the fuck it is you are talking about. If it wasn't for the weather and Allied troops you'd all be speaking German now. No, what you did was use it as an opportunity to steal your neighbors sovereignty and land. Shit, sounds like what you are doing today doesn't it.




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The 5 Most Widely Believed WWII Facts (That Are Bullshit)

America Won the War Single-Handedly

Claimed By:
Hollywood, WWII-shooters, Cold War politics and chauvinists.
Sixty years of World War II movies, and a decade of WWII video games, have made one thing clear: If it wasn't for America, you'd all be speaking German right now, baby! U-S-A! U-S-A!

Why it's Bullshit:
Because it's like thinking that while many X-Men contributed in their own special way, defeating Magneto really came down to Iceman.

There are two radically different histories of WW II, the one that was actually fought, and the one where the US kicked everyone's assess. Guess which one Cold War-era classrooms were allowed to teach? Here's a hint: It's the same one Hollywood chose to film.

... there is one Zangief-sized elephant in the room that America loved to leave out of conversation until the end of the Cold War: the Soviet Union. The "Great Patriotic War" as they called it was the single largest military operation in history, and home to perhaps the biggest turning-point of the war: the Battle of Stalingrad.

Understand, the Russia versus Germany part of the war wasn't just a little more important than the part the USA was involved in. It was "four times the scale" of the whole Western front, larger than all other phases of the war put together. The Soviet military suffered eight million soldiers dead, more than 20 freaking times the number of U.S. casualties.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Clearly THUGR, you have nothing to say because you're pulling the "Russian troll" card, again. Also, you've gone back to shitting gifs.


Here's something about WWII that's about your speed. It's got pictures of cartoons and everything.:

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The 5 Most Widely Believed WWII Facts (That Are Bullshit)

America Won the War Single-Handedly

Claimed By:
Hollywood, WWII-shooters, Cold War politics and chauvinists.
Sixty years of World War II movies, and a decade of WWII video games, have made one thing clear: If it wasn't for America, you'd all be speaking German right now, baby! U-S-A! U-S-A!

Why it's Bullshit:
Because it's like thinking that while many X-Men contributed in their own special way, defeating Magneto really came down to Iceman.

There are two radically different histories of WW II, the one that was actually fought, and the one where the US kicked everyone's assess. Guess which one Cold War-era classrooms were allowed to teach? Here's a hint: It's the same one Hollywood chose to film.

... there is one Zangief-sized elephant in the room that America loved to leave out of conversation until the end of the Cold War: the Soviet Union. The "Great Patriotic War" as they called it was the single largest military operation in history, and home to perhaps the biggest turning-point of the war: the Battle of Stalingrad.

Understand, the Russia versus Germany part of the war wasn't just a little more important than the part the USA was involved in. It was "four times the scale" of the whole Western front, larger than all other phases of the war put together. The Soviet military suffered eight million soldiers dead, more than 20 freaking times the number of U.S. casualties.

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http://www.cracked.com/article_18389_the-5-most-widely-believed-wwii-f
acts-that-are-bullshit.html

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First, your facts can't be trusted. Second, let me explain what WW11 did that reflects negatively on what Trump ( with your blessing ) is doing today.

WW11 took American out of it's isolationism phase. Through our dealings with our allies we learned that America first didn't work. That what happens in the world will engulf us whether we want it to or not. That we could work with other nations to create a better world and did.

That sig, made America number one. Not our isolationism tendencies of the past. You troll and Trump, are fighting to bring us down by repeating today those ignorant aspects of our past. You will fail.


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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Go check up on any MAINSTREAM WWII historian that you care to find, they'll tell you the same thing.

As far as WWII is concerned, we achieved our manufacturing status on by climbing over the backs of destroyed manufacturing elsewhere.

You're an embarrassment to your "friends" here on the board. Not one of them will support you in this stupidity because, unlike you, they know that you're an ignoramus.

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Why are you so upset with me for arguing with you about Russia? Why is it so important to you we all believe Russia won the war and saved us all?

Could it be because you are Russia? We know the answer but sill you should cop to it.


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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess all of your "friends" here on this board must be "Russian trolls" too, then.


***

The more you pull this "Russian troll" shit, the more you prove the point of the thread.

Do you REALLY think that the Soviet Union didn't win the war in Europe? Then go look it up. Since propaganda and lies can be countered with truth and facts, bring truth and facts to the board and make your case.

Just go look it up. Stop refusing to learn. You'll be much happier.

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Stalin had a rich history of not fighting the Nazis until he had to.

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Stalin had a rich history of not fighting the Nazis until he had to. - SIGNY

Which would have been forever if Hitler hadn't broken the pact and invaded. - KPO

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Stalin had a rich history of not fighting the Nazis until he had to. - SIGNY

Which would have been forever if Hitler hadn't broken the pact and invaded. - KPO

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Just as WE wouldn't have entered the war against Japan until we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. What are you, nuts, KPO?

****

WISHY ... Did you not hear the intro? That was all Trump at half speed. If I were to slow YOU down to half speed, you'd sound drunk too!


****

THUGR: I see that you're retreating with every post. In your last post you had, literally, nothing to say ... once again proving the title of the thread. So - thanks!

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Russia entered into an agreement that allowed Hitler to attack his neighbors with impunity. They paid for that because they were next. They paid 20 million worth, perhaps more.

Then they did what Hitler did. Steal land and sovereignty from their neighbors. They called it the Soviet Union. A Union that required barbed wire and walls to keep people from running for the hills. Remember that comrade sig?


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Originally posted by SIGNYM:


WISHY ... Did you not hear the intro? That was all Trump at half speed. If I were to slow YOU down to half speed, you'd sound drunk too!

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So THUGR, you agree that Russia beat the Nazis in Europe?

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Nope, what I said was Russia entered into an agreement that allowed Hitler to attack his neighbors with impunity. They paid for that because they were next. They paid with 20 million, perhaps more Russian lives. The allies actions in Europe saved Russia's ass.

Then the Russians did what Hitler did. Steal land and sovereignty from their neighbors. They called their ill gotten gains the Soviet Union. A Union that required barbed wire and walls to keep people from running for the hills. Remember that comrade sig?

Today they've adopted Hitler's strategy and are using it in Georgia and the Ukraine. Isn't that so comrade sig?





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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So THUGR, you agree that Russia beat the Nazis in Europe?

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
G, Wishy, T and Second no longer even attempt to deal in facts. They merely insult nearly everyone else on the board at any given opportunity.

It seems that they've devolved into the neo-basket-of-deplorables.

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Originally posted by second:
German deaths were 6,900,000 to 7,400,000. The Allies, excluding the Soviets, killed half those. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by second:
German deaths were 6,900,000 to 7,400,000. The Allies, excluding the Soviets, killed half those. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

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As usual, you're bullshitting. First of all your link doesn't even contain that claim, let alone support it. Second of all, you're wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II

OKW Casualty Figures Sept 1, 1939 to Jan 31, 1945

Army Eastern Front 1,105,987Dead 1,018,365Missing&POW 2,124,352Total 3,498,059Wounded&Sick
Subtotal Army 1,622,561Dead 1,646,316Missing&POW 3,268,877Total 4,188,037Wounded&Sick

In other words, the Eastern (Russian) Front accounted for 11 out of 16 dead German soldiers, 10 out of 16 missing and POW German soldiers, and 35 out of 42 wounded and sick German soldiers.


Why have you taken up lying, SECOND?

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But it's YOU who keeps bringing up Russia, not me. Seriously, just look at the thread titles and who posts them. I'm not sure that I EVER posted about Russia. - SIGNY

So... you're not including this thread that you started and posted in? You really have to try to be that stupid. - GSTRING

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Originally posted by second:
nothing relevant

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Looking at the first page I have only started 2 threads, and neither about Russia.

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While you have started tons of whiny threads many of which are about Russia or Russia's influence and buggery in the world.

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Select to view spoiler:

I'll bet this is going to be like that "evidence" that everyone kept saying existed, but nobody could QUITE manage to post on the board.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by second:
nothing relevant

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And what does that have to do with Russia beating Germany on behalf of the other allies? Oh, that's right - NOTHING. It's your usual, pointless, off topic,. irrelevant snark.

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While you have started tons of whiny threads many of which are about Russia or Russia's influence and buggery in the world.- GSTRING

GSTRING: LIAR But yanno, if you want to be seen as something other than a BLATANT LIAR, why don't you list those titles right here? - SIGNY

Damnit! You got me! You have posted more whiny threads about Russia than I have:

1. Accusing Someone You Disagree With Of Being A Russian Troll Is Admitting You Have No Argument

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2. Lynch. Comey. Dirty Debbie. Hillary. The FBI-DNC link, and the DOJ, again. It's one giant deep state clusterfvck

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3. Fake news: CNN; NYT; VICE; WaPo; WSJ. ... now ABC .... It's like a trainwreck, but I can't stop watching

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the news could stop using Anonymous unless the editor knows the Anonymous’ real name. If Anonymous lied to gullible reporters, Anonymous’ real name is published by the editor, along with a retraction.

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4. Flynn pleads guilty to lying to the FBI

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5. Euromaidan Snipers Were Hired By Ukrainian Opposition (Italian media)

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6. Latest on US war in Syria. What's not to like?

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7. Trump, Putin meet at sidelines of SE Asia meeting; Tump blasts his own intel

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8. What the hell?? Qatar dustup. Now, Saudi Game of Thrones "red wedding", and that little shit Jared Kushner

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9. Hillary: "Trump Dossier", "gross negligence", taking over the DNC and a whole thread just for her

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10. Paul Manafort indicted, on nothing related to Trump - or Russia

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11. Syria and Ukraine, Catalan and Kurdistan: what do they have in common?

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12. “Evidens". So, where are we now?

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BTW, because I know you will contest those as not having Russia in the title (!), just do a text search on each of them and you'll find "Russia" all over your posts.

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Originally posted by G:
You went back half a year? Do you have any life? Cats all dead, wine all drunk?

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Originally posted by second:
...

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
... I missed this in the thread, but SECOND posted a great fix for bad reporting

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the news could stop using Anonymous unless the editor knows the Anonymous’ real name. If Anonymous lied to gullible reporters, Anonymous’ real name is published by the editor, along with a retraction.

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I don't know how I missed this, but kudos to SECOND!

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You aren't addressing the Russian investigation. What you are doing is deflecting. You aren't debating about all the Russian contacts we have been learning about. You know, the ones the entire administration claimed didn't happen, but did.

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What you trolls represent is the party of perverts and pedophiles.

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