Paranormal experiences & Dreams by piratejenny

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Rupert Sheldrake

Thanks for the name. Found his site and will look at it. Should be interesting by any account.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

The theory that humans went through a semiaquatic stage of developement during the "missing link" period is overwhelmingly supported by morphology and no one's heard of it. Chromozonal evidence that the oldest humans were from Australia is marginalized because of the Leakey Foundation and common prejudice that the most primitive humans must have been African.

I think a lot of this is that people get set in there ways. They seek out and find something to explain something. When they find that explination they stop seeking. Which is how I'd explain the no-one hear about it. Plus the fact that you *really* have to be looking to find the new ideas.

But then again, when it comes to people coming from Africa or Australia, why can't it be both?

I believe that people become attached to some idea to the point that they there thinking becomes, I'm right and you're wrong. They don't even think of the possibility of the solution being somewhere in the middle. Something to ponder anyway

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

No, the scientific method does not prescribe these prejudices, but human ego and rigidity do. Science can be used just like any other institution to control ideas and information and make the powerful more so.

Well the true scientist will not behave in such a way. But unfortunatly that person is getting rarer and rarer as time passes. I blame (in part) the downfall of the education system. It's a worldwide phenomina and it's getting worse.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Why are we still talking about this?

People still have misconceptions of what science and such are. I don't think it'll end here either.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 8:20 PM

@Hardware:
Have there been any attempts at capturing it on tape? Such as setting up a series of cameras along where the tracks were?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 9:21 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think a lot of this is that people get set in there ways. They seek out and find something to explain something. When they find that explination they stop seeking. Which is how I'd explain the no-one hear about it. Plus the fact that you *really* have to be looking to find the new ideas.

Dude, do you realize that you're describing religious conversion! "When they find that explaination they stop seeking!" I think this is the problem. Religiosity (in the sense of a need to find answers and beat people over the head with your results) is stronger and more deep-seated in the human psyche than the truly scientific view.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 11:02 PM

HARDWARE

@Sigmanuki,
Not to my knowledge. I know Hans Holzer, the noted ghost investigator, did an investigation of this site but due to newspaper coverage it turned into a media circus. I've also read on websites that the tracks were torn up, interrupting the appearance of the light.

Sad, now this sounds like a missed opportunity.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2004 5:44 AM

CYBERSNARK

Just a random thought; for those of us in Canada (don't know if the show's on any US networks), tune in tonight on Space to a show called Proof Positive; it's a reality-like show that takes paranormal phenomena and subjects them to scientific testing (also, it's hosted by Amanda "Maj. Carter" Tapping, for the braniac sex-appeal factor).

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
A short time before, a company of Fort Bragg soldiers armed with rifles decided to put an end to Joe's nightly excursions. His lantern eluded both guns and soldiers.

Heh. How drunk were they when they came up with that plan?

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2004 10:43 AM

KELLAINA

I think Proof Positive airs on Sci-Fi in the US (not sure though). I saw it a couple of weeks ago on Space, really interesting stuff.

Anyway, I just wanted to jump in and say how great this thread is (as is everyone's willingness to share their experiences and opinions) and contribute two of my own experiences.

When I was a kid I had experiences similar to what DarkJester described in one of the posts near the beginning of the thread. I would have really short dreams (more like flashes between dreams) of things that would later happen (and I would usually wake up thinking 'why would he say that?' or 'why was I there?').

The odd part was when I would remember the dream. Usually something someone said would trigger a memory of the dream and I would know how the conversation or whatever would play out for the next 15-30 seconds. I would usually try to chalk it up to deja vu, but it always felt like more than that, especially since I would remember the experience the first time (in the dream), it wasn't just feeling like I had seen this before. It happened about once a month when I was younger (I remember it happening the most when I was about 12-14). Now it rarely happens (I'm 21), of course now, I rarely remember what I dream at all.

The other experience is that when I was a child (between about 4 and 8 I think) I would feel a hand on my shoulder. There was enough pressure so that I would turn around to see who it was and there would be no one there. The pressure would last until I turned around to look. It always scared me (I think that's why I remember it).

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

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Wednesday, December 8, 2004 4:34 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

A joke: if Science is based on reproducibility, and "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" then ....

SignyM:

When it comes to extra-physical existence, I am probably a disbeliever. I want to think that people who have died are still around, but my experience tells me otherwise. And your post about being able to reproducibly create a religious or paranormal experience through direct brain stimulation certainly adds weight to that position. But, I don't think it's a proven 'brain glitch' yet. And there could always be those things that are simply beyond our senses. So I keep an open mind and communicate with people who seem to know more than I do.

On the other hand when it comes to religion, I look at history ... All those people who sincerely believed in Mithra, or Ra, or ... who sacrificed in faith ... And where are those religions now? Dust. They were obvious products of their cultures, and they withered as the cultures did. So maybe one can find certain insights into human relations and the puzzle of existence from those people. But belief is beyond me.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 2:17 AM

Quote:
But that ground *cannot* be shaky. It must be hard, solid ground. This is not obtainible at this point in time.

The problem of people talking about it is starting to fade away and this thread is proof of that. Time will erode this barrier further and before long, you'll only remember it existance. These societal things always take time. Hell the woman thing still isn't completely gone (better or worse depending on your location).

this thread is also proof, that the paranormal metaphysical thing isn't going away and is going to have to be dealt with (eventually)..because you can't get away from it. we both know that nothing is going to be answered in this tread, but it doesn't matter because we are talking about it, we have an open dialogue and thats good enough.

Quote:
But then again, when it comes to people coming from Africa or Australia, why can't it be both?

exactly it probably was both and since the contient of Australia use to be a part of Africa, at one point wasn't most continents one big mass it makes perfect sense

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 3:10 AM

I wasn't going to bring this up at 1rst because you guys are probably thinking damn, she's had to many paranormal experiences..but its true..as far as I know so why not

when I was about 3 maybe 4 I would say closer to 4( btw I can remember as far back as two years old) I had this nightgown..it was my favorite nighgown and I even have pictures of me in that nightgown..anyway it was yellow with short puffy sleeves and it was lacy around the hem it had a scoop neck and a highwaist and a sort of ruffled flounce

well when I was little whenever I wore that night gown I would see myself as this woman in a yellow dress that was sort of simular to the nightgown I was wearing

I have two vivid memories of myself as this woman in the yellow dress..the 1rst memory is I'm riding in a horse drawn carriage down this dirt path with lots of trees on both sides its a gray damp and drizzled day and cold I'm also wearing a yellow bonnet that matches the dress, I don't know if it really should be called a memory because at the time..it was like I was there..but even as a kid I knew the woman was myself

the second memory I'm wearing the yellow dress, but I'm standing on a platue..I'm up high on top of a building on something simular to a patio..but its not..and I'm looking out over a vast country side everything is lush and green, but I'm not happy

I think the nighgown triggered those memories of me in a past life at the time I didn't know it was a past life I was only 4 but as I got older and thought more about it I did a little research and from the dress that I was wearing..I think the time I was living in was the georgian period

Also when I was 8 one day I was in my brothers room and I was laying on the bottom bunk bed and on the top part of the bed were the top bunk was at the bottom had these various pictures on it..anyway for some reason I was concentrating really hard on the pictures and I zoned out..all of a sudden I saw myself walking down a city street I was wearing a long coat much like a trench coat and a hat and carrying a bag it started to rain.. I ran into a store to get out of the rain it was a cigar shop or a smoke shop of some sort, there was a man at the counter and he was reading a news paper and on it had something about a war..I saw myself ..but I was a man....I think it was around the 1920's maybe earlier..not really sure

I had another simular experience of zoning out and seeing myself as someone else only I don't remember how old I was..I think I was in my teens and don't really remember any of the details surrounding it..it happened really fast..but I felt tremedous happiness as I saw myself..but I'm walking down a hall way of a house..and the wall paper is sort of a cream and a faded pink big stripe wall paper I turn the corner and I come to the kitchen and I walk toward the back door and look out and theres children playing..they are my children..and thats all I see..I was a woman with dark hair and I think the period was victorian ..it was as if I could see myself walking ( not really myself but as if I had steped into someone's body and was looking at it seeing it as it was happening as if I was walking thats the best I can explain it the memory came and went quickly..but the sense of happiness and content I felt was very poweful

I refer to these experiences as memories but , thats not doing it justice because it really wasn't like a memory it didn't feel like a memory or a dream...it was like I was there I could feel the cold I could feel the rain I could smell the treess..it felt more like the time when I saw the pinpoints of lights and went to my greatgrandmothers only it was diffrent from that too!!

Those experiences got me interested in past lives, I read a book called past lives furture lives my Jenny Cockell..her experiencs have been documented I think 20/20 even did a story on her or 60 minutes if anyone is interested in past lives I would recommend her book

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 3:26 PM

@HKCavalier:
I realize that I wasn't exactly telling in the context I was using and/or typed it wrong (I usually tired when I post

).

I was speaking more about how laymans think. They are the ones that set the ciriculum for public schools. And the ones that teach these things, teach it like it is *the* theory, etc. This is laughable as there *are* problems with Darwins theory and there are other theories worth considering.

I would think that the problem with this one is rather more with disemination of information than anything else. Schools don't even touch on the other theories (or even mention them) if only for the time factor. And they don't even mention the problems with the theories that they do teach.

And if people aren't even aware that there are other theories (besides creationism) then how would they know even to look?

On another note, I've been thinking about your comment that Rupert Sheldrake is marginalized. I'd have to say that this happens to *everything* that is a radical idea (relative to mainstream of course).

If you look at Quantum Mechanics, it took a *long* time for it to be accepted. And even now, a lot of people don't like it. It's used b/c no-one has come up with anything better and it *is* successful in describing what it is intended to describe.

I've also skimed the telephone telepathy paper and am not impressed. I must say that the conclusions presented do *not* coincide with the numbers. The numbers *are* within statistical error as the number of calls are *small* and guessing could result in the numbers presented in this paper. There was *far* too small a number of calls to say *anything* conclusive.

To prove statistically that this is beyond coincidence, this experiment must be redone with at least a few hundred attempts. As well as with more that just one person being tested. It must be with *many* people.

Since everyone seems to think that this kind of thing only happens to those outside of the mainstream I provide an example of poor research methods from within the scientific community.

There was a researcher that wanted to prove that ecstasy was more than bad for you. He "proved" it and released a paper with the results. More than a few of the monkeys died (given as a percentage), so the conclusion was proven.

After some time, it was found that he only used 10 monkeys in his study (*far* to few) and that the drug was mislabeled (it was amphetamines) and the monkeys recieved a lethal dose. The results were discarded and the researcher... isn't that well regarded anymore nor the institute that he worked for. All results that come out from there, and from him, are in question now. He has become marginalized.

My point here is that, even in the scientific community, people doing research, that isn't good research, are looked down upon. Even if they are already well established.

So, if this paper is representive in Rupert Sheldrake's research, I understand why he is marginalized. If he would redo his experiments as suggested above, then people would have to take a look at the results. In the begining not many would look, if only because of his known experimental practices like those in this paper. But after time, if he improves his practices, that number would grow.

Every journey of a thousand miles, begins with one single step.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 5:15 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hmmm... where to start...

I posted one of my own experiences pretty far up in this thread, where I dreamt something that was extrememely specific only to learn about it's occurence after I woke up. That's not the only experience I've had, but it was the one that seemed the most unexplainable just because it was correct in so many details. Now, if I could just turn that to the stock market, that would be great. (And I'd share my fortune with all of you!

)

But my ideas on this whole topic are pretty unformed. I tend to view "internally experienced" events (out of body, deja vu, past life) as brain glitches because they are so... well... subjective. In most occurences, there is nothing to show that the event had any meaning outside of the person's own brain- no detail that can be confirmed and shared with others for example. (W/ the possible exception of the grandma visit.) That's not to say that these experiences can't provide great insight- Kelkule came up with the structure of benzene after dreaming about a snake eating it's tail- but they may not necessarily reflect anything except the person's own understanding and awareness.

The there are the other phenomenon- lights, noises, things that we can ALL look at and confirm (or not). I've never been able to track down anyone who has seen and recorded any such events first-hand. Of course, I never really tried, but there are several outstanding prizes for those who can prove the existance of life after death (for example) and they have yet to be collected.

OTOH, that's not so say that these event are impossible. Experiments in the outer reaches of physics (quantum) have shown that light can indeed travel faster than light, and supposedly random quantum events can be predicted by other supposedly random quantum events, so I am aware (as are all good scientists) that the universe doesn't work the way we think it does. And given the limits of our thinking, it prolly never will!

As far as things being rejected because they are not easy to explain... it's not the difficulty of the explanation that boggles scientists (By the time you get through the whole concept of dark matter and dark energy, you start to realize that scientists can twist themselves up into some pretty awesome knots!!

) it's the difficulty of showing that the thing exists in the first place.

BTW- the semi-aquatic theory of human evolution goes farther than any other theory I've ever seen in explaining our unique human features. Unfortunately, scientists can be as dogmatic as priests some times. I can think of a whole raft of theories that were initially rejected (plate techtonics, H. pylori as the causative agent of ulcer) only to be... in the end.. FINALLY accepted into the pantheon of scientific acceptability.

Not trying to push any opinions, just some random thoughts.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 7:54 PM

Quote:
But my ideas on this whole topic are pretty unformed. I tend to view "internally experienced" events (out of body, deja vu, past life) as brain glitches because they are so... well... subjective.

But can a brain glitch be proven to be a brain glitch..define a brain glitch..what is a brain glitch and how is it any diffrent from anything..its just a label ..it to is subjective, until you can explain a metaphysical paranormal experience..you can't really explain a brain glitch..., years ago people who heard voices and saw things crazy people schizophrenic people were thought to be posessed...posession it was just a label..schizophrenic is another label..these people see things and hear voices..and we say its all in their head..but how do we know that..what if these things they are seeing and hearing are real...what if these crazy people have tuned into something a frequency or one of their senses have been awakened..and the things and voices they see are real.only its not on a level we can understand.. a brain glitch can no more be explained and be compreheneded then anything else!!

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 8:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

but there are several outstanding prizes for those who can prove the existance of life after death (for example) and they have yet to be collected.

Quite frankly, I really don't think that this can be proven.

My opinion on the matter, is to live my life as best I can, as in the end, we all find out the truth

So, why stress over it?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Experiments in the outer reaches of physics (quantum) have shown that light can indeed travel faster than light,

No. A wave packet can travel faster than the velocity of light in that medium, but the information cannot. Thus, no violation of any theory occures.

If memory serves, it basically boils down to the difference between phase velocity and group velocity.

From the wife:
There's an experimental physicist doing experiments about this, Nimtz (last name). And there are a host of theorists that provided the reasons why this isn't a big deal and that we've known about this for some time. I can't remember there names, but a search for Nimtz should reveal them.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

and supposedly random quantum events can be predicted by other supposedly random quantum events

What exactly are you talking about here?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, December 10, 2004 1:42 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

OK you physics folks - you went way beyond me. But I do have a quick question anyway - entanglement. How two entagled photons at a distance can seemingly transmit properties at FTL speeds. Or does that not happen? Any thoughts?

I've been thinking about brain glitches and normal brain operations a little. For a while I was doing high magnification microscopy work, which entailed moving slides on the stage by VERY small amounts (yes, yes I know, there are mechanisms to do that, but fingers are just so much faster). How did humans get a feedback system that works when the input is magnified 500x or more? How did parrots get the ability to use and understand language? How does any animal get isolated abilities so far advanced over normal requirements, and over their other abilities? I have no answer, BTW, but I'll get back to this after my caveat.

Specifically, I couldn't support an idea that schizophrenics are exceptionally talented at the paranormal. That would do a major disservice to their real problems. As someone who has an (extremely minor) neurological glitch, I can attest to the stress that comes from simply not perceiving smoothly. Also, I used to spend lots of time with kids with lead poisoning. In general, they were scattered, lost, frantic, anxious. At a higher level of malfunction, I can't imagine WHAT everyday life would be like. What I can imagine is that it's no fun at all, and those people need and deserve every help we can get them.

But what about sensations of religious significance? Of connectedness? Or of any other internal reaction for which there is no external cause? They come from some brain activity. Why is that function there in the first place? Like parrots understanding language, could it be that they are an extraneous talent with no perceivable normal function? And that they do tap into a separate reality? (Not my original idea. As I may have mentioned before, I know lots of really smart people)

Just some musings.

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Friday, December 10, 2004 6:51 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How did humans get a feedback system that works when the input is magnified 500x or more? How did parrots get the ability to use and understand language? How does any animal get isolated abilities so far advanced over normal requirements, and over their other abilities?

Hi Rue! As someone who experiences psychic phenomena 20 times a day, I am made continually aware of how much more aware we are than we think. The subconscious picks up on worlds of information that our conscious science won't be clocking for another 1000 years. Perhaps my psychic awareness is in some ways a biproduct of simply having a more conscious handle on the tiny, tiny discrepencies you're talking about.

A mystic I knew (he's gone now) once made the outragious assertion that all technology is but a pail reflection of what human beings can do naturally. Some African tribes have detailed information on astronomy without ever even having a telescope for instance. It just isn't anywhere near as easy and we've forgotten how. Technology has a way of destroying our racial memory, you see.

It's curious to me that the scientific mindset (scientistic?) tends toward a strict utilitarianism. It always seems to sneak in. You start thinking of the Universe as some kind of machine, people and animals as machines. Things. Objects in space. But what about poetry? Or beauty? Or just plain fun? Look at your example of talking parrots. Clearly, evolution does not rely solely on "requirements." I'd say that evolution is much more conserned with beauty than utility, but of course I ain't a scientist. What if the Universe were having fun? Seriously though, how does your mind square with the notion of "beauty." It's not another glitch, I hope!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Specifically, I couldn't support an idea that schizophrenics are exceptionally talented at the paranormal. That would do a major disservice to their real problems.

Of course. But what if schizophrenia were what happens when psychic awareness malfunctions? If you are open to the possibility that psychic awareness exists, surely there must be failures, aberations, defective specimens. What do you think they would look like?

On the other hand, "functional" psychic awareness ain't no picnic either. I have frequent spells of aphasia lasting as long as a minute sometimes. I'll cry at pretty much anything. The other night I had to leave a restaurant where I'd just sat down to dinner with some friends because I couldn't stop seeing and feeling the whole room in flames and dozens of uniformed men dying in the blaze (won't be going back to that restaurant any time soon).

It has something to do with the fact that as the ordinary senses start to malfunction, the unofficial senses become more available. You might say that my mind malfunctions just enough to be useful.

Your last questions about religious experience are way too vast a subject for me to squeeze them into any coherent comentary right now. I'll have to think about it.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, December 10, 2004 8:34 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi HK,
Interesting, interesting. You and I live very differently in our skulls. Mine is prosaic. Also, I do have some kind of perceptual glitch that shows up in odd ways. For example, I took an undergrad psychology class, and as a requirement, we had to be guinea pigs in the grad student's studies. One of them was about subliminal visual perception. Without going into a long, drawn out expln, what I will say is at the end, they came out and asked me "Have you been, uhm, treated for anything? Maybe as a child? Do you remember anything like that?", then showed me where I was on their chart - or rather, how far off the chart I was. I gather that not only do I not see subliminal images at all, my reaction time is about 2.5x longer than anyone else's. So, my belief is I have to look at something a very long time before I can cognate (consciously) that it's there at all. That makes it hard for me, I think, to read quick, subtle things. Perhaps that's one major difference between us. I'm sure there are other significant ones as well. But I find it seriously fascinating, so I hope you're not too put off by my nosy-ness.

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Friday, December 10, 2004 10:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Some African tribes have detailed information on astronomy without ever even having a telescope for instance. It just isn't anywhere near as easy and we've forgotten how. Technology has a way of destroying our racial memory, you see.

The Aztecs are another example of astrological superiority. There calander is *far* more acurate than our own. There calander was out aprox (from memory) 1 day per 100,000 years, whereas ours is out 1 day per 4 years and on top of that another day per few thousand and beyond that I don't know. But I'd conjecture confidently that it's out more.

I wouldn't say that technology has a way of destroying memory though. I'd say that, since these things, after some time, become history, that we become ignorant of history. And as such, things get lost in the vastness of time. It's just the way things are.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

It's curious to me that the scientific mindset (scientistic?) tends toward a strict utilitarianism.

Well, if something isn't useful to explaining what someone is (at that moment) trying to explain, then why would it be considered? Science is, by its very nature, useful. It's how it was constructed and continues to be.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

But what about poetry? Or beauty? Or just plain fun?

Different feilds. One cannot know nor consider everything. But, they are useful in there own right.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Look at your example of talking parrots. Clearly, evolution does not rely solely on "requirements." I'd say that evolution is much more conserned with beauty than utility, but of course I ain't a scientist. What if the Universe were having fun? Seriously though, how does your mind square with the notion of "beauty." It's not another glitch, I hope!

Well, for evolution to work there must be room to evolve. I mean, if something has reached its limit, how can it progress any further?

Beauty is relative. I find great beauty in some of the math that I am currently studying whereas others find it a horror. My wife finds (and I as well) great beauty in physics, though there are messy parts as well.

To be certain though, many other things have beauty. I can appreciate a sun set. When I was in Scotland, I looked over the wall of Sterlin Castle listening to "The Badger" by The Tea Party and was the most at peace that I've been since I can remember. I found it just the epitome of beauty.

I guess it's just how you look at things that makes it a machine or more, beautiful or not. To each his own I guess.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Of course. But what if schizophrenia were what happens when psychic awareness malfunctions? If you are open to the possibility that psychic awareness exists, surely there must be failures, aberations, defective specimens. What do you think they would look like?

Interesting, I'll have to let that one sit on the back burner for a bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

It has something to do with the fact that as the ordinary senses start to malfunction, the unofficial senses become more available.

I don't know if I'd agree with this as a general case. But it does fit a certain reasoning, namely the blind's hightened senses.

But just because you loss part of something doesn't mean that the others would grow. ie if you burn your hand so badly that there is nerve damage, the rest of your body doesn't become more sensitive.

At this point though, I would think we might have reached a matter of opinion.

@Rue:
I'm still having talks with the wife about entanglement and I will get back to you when something comes out of it. But, how much math and physics have you taken? The answer is... complex.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, December 10, 2004 10:32 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

HK and Sigma,
The idea behind parsimonious evolution is that for something to invest energy/resources into a feature that is NOT generally useful, would put them at a competative disadvantage. So while the idea is that variations which are collectively neither assets nor liabilities and are therefore maintained (in a static environment) provide for selectable variations (in a changing environment), over-evolution isn't supposed to happen. Was that clear?

Sigma,
Only the first two years of physics/math courses (for physics/math majors) in college. But I'd appreciate it if you took a shot. If it doesn't work, oh well, my bad. I wouldn't hound you to keep going, shouting into my deaf ears.

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 1:21 AM

GLOWYRM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I have had similar experiences, all of which in my opinion have a direct link with the paranormal...

i too have had experiences, that are 'different' to say the least.

i have lived with a lovely man for almost five years now, he cared for my children, alerted me to people i should or shouldnt trust, defended my pets and in times of stress he even calmed me down. the fact he had been dead for several years before i moved in doesnt bother me at all.

we have had series of moving/moved objects, from dissapearing keys to ornaments being broken in rooms where no-one is (all windows and doors closed)

I have also experienced a vision of a very old ghost at the (famous) Port Arthur Penal Collony in Tasmania Australia. after writing my statement, and giving detailed descriptions of the girl, i drew a sketch of the area, and was then shown at least a half a dozen other reports made in the few years before.

i have had what i will call pre-cognative dreams. dreaming of accidents, one i prevented (three am phone calls from hysterical friends telling you to fix your seatbelt helped) and the other i couldnt,i dreamed day sequences and then spoke and queued actions under my breath as a teenager.

i had an OBE or RV type of dream where i witnessed my Step great-grandfather die, only a few hours later we got a call to tell us he was dead, my mum woke me and i told her i knew... she was a little freaked.she freaked out even more when i told her the sequence of events.

i have also experienced something called clareaudience. i have heard (on many occasions) people i know talking, yet in one case he was at the other side of the continent.

i have 'feelings' that prove to be very accurate when holding jewelery items of other people. i gave up on tarot reading because i was eerrily accurate.

i was talked through the last few hours of my (12 hour, very painful) labour by my
great-grandmother... who was asleep in Tasmania... I was in Queensland.

i have had these experiences (and more) all my life. since i was a small child. my children have both had interaction with my ghost, Tony, and both reacted the exact same way. i have been told by so many people that my daughters are 'old souls' so it wouldnt surprise me at all if they had some kind of connection to the etherial side of existance.

my only true horror is a pair of reccuring dreams. the first i havent had since i was eighteen, and the second i still have on a regular basis. if anyone has any ideas i would love to hear them... ferelbushpig@hotmail.com

dream one.
i am in a clearing in a forrest. the grass is long and green and there is a gentle breeze. everything seems ok until i turn around(from the waist) and see a pure white King Cobra snake, aproximately 12 feet long, 3/4 raised hood flared. it goes to strike me but i start to run, no matter how fast i run i dont move. its as if im on a treadmill and the Cobra is in slow motion i "see" its mouth open and its fangs and that is when i wake up. cold sweat, and usualy on the floor.

dream two.
ever heard the old chestnut about "if you dream you are falling and you dont wake before you hit the bottom you die"? well ive never woken up before hitting the bottom. i run from something and plunge straight over the cliff, i can see the waves breaking on the rocks, i see the rocks speeding up towards me, i open my mouth to scream but i dont get the chance. as soon as i hit the rocks its like im jolted out of my body and i rise, slowly to see my body. always the same angle, the same injuries, sometimes different clothes but always the same ending. i watch the light turn off in my eyes an visible shutting off of my life. im not scared or worried just realy calm. then i float back down and merge into my body. i cant see anything, there is no sensory input at all and i just know im dead. then i wake up.

with this dream people who have stayed over say i sleep like a baby but when i wake up im swolen and red in certain areas.

im used to it now and i only get it once every few weeks instead of every few nights or at its worst a few times every night.

"i love being a glowyrm, cause a glowyrm cant be glum. for who the heck would argue with big teeth and a sun for a bum!"

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 2:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sigma- entangled photons- I'd be interested in the anwer as well, altho I have no idea what the question is!

AFA the speed of light- what do you mean by "the information" is lost? What info? The frequency of the initial light source?

AFA the quantum-prediction comment- It's somehting I will have to look up because I only remmer the conclusion. It was published about 2(?) years ago, I read a summary in Science News. Best I recall- the authors were looking for a way to "read" particles at a quantum level. What they found (if I'm phrasing this correctly) is that the spin of a particle can be predicted by the spin of another particle. I'll try to find you the exact reference.

Brain glitches and parsimonious evolution... That assumes that certain types of development are genetic and subject to evolutionary fources. A species-wide ability, like talking parrots, is clearly genetic. But what about the case of synesthetes? These are ppl who perceive one stimulous as a combintaion of senses: color as color AND shape, or taste as sound AND taste. Apparently, they make up 10% of the population. Is that a meaningful development? I also tried to find an reference to the neurobiology of religious experiences... according to a couple of studies, some people are "built" to have religious experiences (intense feeling of one-ness or connectedness) because their thalami(?) are wired differently than most... but when I tried looking it up, I came up with too many references to the Buddhist (female) monk/ Franciscan monk study to wade thru. I'll have to find the reference later. But if that's the case, it seems kind of a cheat that most people would be deficient in their perception of religion, and like a synesthete talking to the rest of us about the color of drumbeat, the religiously-wired folks would be telling the rest of us "deaf" about the sound of god. (I just don't like feeling like I'm on the outside of a candy store, forever looking in!

) EDITED TO ADD: And if there are only SOME people who can make use of or tap into "glichy" areas of the brain, even if they gain great insight, how much would that mean to the rest of the human race? How much could be transmitted and understood if it was strictly experiential? It would be very much like the proverbial sighted person trying to describe a sunset to the blind... it could never be transitted and only result in frustration to all concerned. \In order for an experience to be discussed, tehre has to be some common ground.
EDITED TO ADD: I should use the word "mystical" instead of "religious", since I agree with PirateJenny that religion has a lot to do with power. A lot of people in the world have religious experiences without ever have paranormal or mystical experiences. But I do have a question, too- In your opnion, are paranormal/ mystical experiences influenced by the surrounding culture? For example, are "ghost" or "spirit" events the same in China as in Iowa, or the Navajo reservation? I understand that the Navajo view ALL spirits as malign, so do they ever have friendly or at least neutral interaction with spirits, such a are described in this thread?

And then, humans have an ability to take their mental models too seriously. Just because we can think of something (purple dragons) doesn't make it real!

AFA talking parrots- I guess there are limits to parsimonious evolution. If the development doesn't cost "too much" energy, or is an outcome of a related, necessary development, I guess it is retained. I had a similar wonderment about the development of intense colors by benthic life... one does have to wonder "how"??

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 2:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Glowyrm- I can only pass on the advice given to most parents who are trying to convince their childs' doctor that somehting abnormal is going on- Have you ever tried videotaping thse blotchy areas?

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 9:16 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

just some quick items:
synesthetes/parrots
it's assumed now most people are synesthetes and also have perfect pitch, but lose them during childhood. Only some individuals retain synesthesis, tonal-speaking cultures retain perfect pitch. Only certain individuals of certain types of parrots speak meaningfully. But that they can is genetic. Brain power is a heavy physiological burden - even when you are not actively 'thinking' about something the brain chews up glucose and O2. It needs to be constantly fed just to stay alive.

I'll probably make it back here in an extended way before 'the holidays', but if I don't get the chance - may the refocusing of our lives bring harmony and peace.

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 10:39 PM

GLOWYRM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Glowyrm- I can only pass on the advice given to most parents who are trying to convince their childs' doctor that somehting abnormal is going on- Have you ever tried videotaping thse blotchy areas?

yeh, i have had my doctor (a very streight non-believer) and even he has said that they are unusual, there is "an obvious swelling and thickening of the muscle." the most recent occurance with the falling dream has left me with a visible and sore lump in the middle of my spine. the angle that i landed on smashed my dream body into a small rock (female fist size) before bouncing slightly to the right. after x rays, ultra sound and a visit to the osteopath nobody has any other explination. its been several months and STILL the lump remains.

when my kids interact with my ghost it almost always goes the same way.

they will wake from sleep (usualy after a bad dream) and instead of crying and carrying on they both look at the same spot, same height, and start talking. the first time it ever happened i was sort of relieved that she (my oldest who was then 18 months) went back to sleep without me even going into her. at three years old she told me about her talks with "the man who isnt realy there but he is". we didnt talk about it much until my second daughter (now 2) started doing the same thing.

the room doesnt matter, or the layout. 'he' always sits in the middle of the side of the bed.

when my most recent relationship broke down, i waqs in a lot of emotional pain... i may enter that story as a blog entry... almost every night for months i felt a hand on my shoulder right before i would go to bed. or while i was doing the washing up. we love him and respect him and he is almost a part of the family.

"i love being a glowyrm, cause a glowyrm cant be glum. for who the heck would argue with big teeth and a sun for a bum!"

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Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:23 AM

glowyrm wrote:

Quote:
dream two.
ever heard the old chestnut about "if you dream you are falling and you dont wake before you hit the bottom you die"? well ive never woken up before hitting the bottom. i run from something and plunge straight over the cliff, i can see the waves breaking on the rocks, i see the rocks speeding up towards me, i open my mouth to scream but i dont get the chance. as soon as i hit the rocks its like im jolted out of my body and i rise, slowly to see my body. always the

same angle, the same injuries, sometimes different clothes but always the same ending. i watch the light turn off in my eyes an visible shutting off of my life. im not scared or worried just realy calm. then i float back down and merge into my body. i cant see anything, there is no sensory input at all and i just know im dead. then i wake up.

with this dream people who have stayed over say i sleep like a baby but when i wake up im swolen and red in certain areas.

im used to it now and i only get it once every few weeks instead of every few nights or at its worst a few times every night.

I'm no dream expert or anything like that, but find this dream very intresting the feelings and emotions I've experieced with something I call the pink room dreams....but back to you

it seems as if you are experiencing death in this dream, maybe a past death or future death, the fact that you can actually feel yourself leaving your body is the most intresting part of this recurring dream.

death is another one of those subjects that I think people should talk more about ..most people don't like to think of it but its part of living, and i think the fear thats associated with it is shamful..I mean death itself

I maybe scared about how I die, or when I die, but I'm not afraid of dying.

its something we are all going to have to do. I don't see why it has to be such a fearful exprience!!

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Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:24 AM

double post!!

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Monday, December 20, 2004 8:26 PM

GLOWYRM

Quote:

I maybe scared about how I die, or when I die, but I'm not afraid of dying.

i can totaly agree, i dont hold any fear of the actual act of dying, just the acts that lead up to it. after all, as any good kender(from the dragonlance books) would tell you "death is the last great adventure"

"i love being a glowyrm, cause a glowyrm cant be glum. for who the heck would argue with big teeth and a sun for a bum!"

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Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:39 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
I don't want to be killed by a typo. It'd be embarassing.

--Cmdr Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:50 AM

DTUCK

I've always been a bit of a paradox. My deepest belief is in the truth of science, yet I also firmly believe in the supernatural, metaphysical, and spiritual. I can't explain how they all fit together, but it's something like... Science explains the physical world, down to the planck scale, but the spiritual/metaphysical exists outside of the realm of current known science. Either because we don't have the technology to properly analyze such phenomena yet, or because we refuse to give the paranormal the mainstream attention it deserves.

In a thousand years, maybe we'll be able to take a college course on the psychology of mental telepathy, join a support group for struggling pyrokinetics, or hire a government-sanctioned medium to communicate with lost loved ones. Today, however, the information is a bit sketchy.

(This doesn't really have anything to do with the paranormal, but I've always been a lucid dreamer. Whenever something scares me in a dream, I always just kind of go, "You're not real, so

off.", or I use some sort of force to push it away or render it helpless somehow. It seems to fit with my deep-rooted scientific belief... it's not real, so it can't hurt me. Oddly enough, sometimes, when I realize I'm dreaming, I'll ask somebody in the dream, "So, this is a dream, right?" and they'll respond affirmative, and it always makes me laugh.)

I'll post again with some of my more unusual experiences.

__________________________________

The best way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it.

- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, December 21, 2004 10:57 AM

KNIBBLET

I believe "somewhat" in the paranormal. Basically, I believe up to the point where someone tries to make money off of it.

I believe because I've had full-blown visions that warn me when someone I know is in extreme danger. I call it 'the voice'. The voice shows and tells me exactly what is going to happen if I don't act immediately.

I don't get these when the toast is going to burn -- I get these when my brother is about to burn. Literally.

Looking back, I've always had warnings about stuff but this was the first time that I really remember the voice screaming at me from inside my head.

I was babysitting about 4 blocks from my house when I heard a voice shout in my ear, "Larry is going to burn himself!" The voice showed me my little brother cooking hotdogs over a fire. He was wearing a huge purple poofy pirate shirt and the sleeves caught fire.

My first reaction was "why is Larry wearing my shirt?". The voice SCREAMED at me to stop him. I ran home as fast as I could and there was my little brother, pouring lighter fluid on a pile of sticks to have himself a private little weenie roast. And yes, he was wearing my purple pirate shirt.

I heard it again when I was at a party (a drunken debauch which inspired epic songs) and it warned me "FIND BECKY NOW!!" and showed me a visual of my roommate and 3 guys dead in a field.

I found Becky getting into a car full of drunks. I physically hauled her out of the car and threw her over my shoulder. (she is a tiny 5'1" thang). I dragged her kicking and screaming back into the party. I told the guys they had NO business driving in their condition.

An hour later we left the party and drove by the ambulances and emergency vehicles that were rescuing the one living victim and recovering the bodies of the three dead. Yes. They were the guys Becky was in the car with.

I heard the voice a few years later scream in my ear, "He's going to burn!". I was in the ladies room doing what you do in the ladies room when the voice showed me an airman in our squadron on fire, our lawnmower and lawn burning with him.

I hopped to my feet and blew off any handwashing - zipping as I was running out the bathroom door. I grabbed the fire extinguisher and kept running -- I hit the outside doors JUST as the airman pulled the cord on the mower.

He'd filled the gas tank from a bucket of gas and had splashed it all over the mower, the lawn, his boots, etc. He pulled that cord and immediately the mower, grass and airman were on fire.

I doused him with halon before he even realized he'd almost turned himself into a funeral pyre.

These aren't the only times I've heard the voice, but they do come to mind the quickest.

One day, I'll tell you about the ghosts I've lived with over the years.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Thursday, December 23, 2004 4:51 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I've heard the voice twice, but once it was SO inconsequential, it was a shame. I was analyzing a sample, and I knew, knew it was going to be abnormal. It was like St Paul's falling from his horse in a stream of light listening to the voice of God on the road to Damascus. I went around trying to get bets on it but no none would. I could have cleaned-up.
The other time, I was worried sick over a young family member who was seriously ill, and getting worse. I was walking down the sidewalk and I heard the voice coming from over my head in a stream of light, saying (not quite in words) 'she's all right', and it was so convincing, I was able to relax. And for that day, she was remarkably well.

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Thursday, December 23, 2004 4:56 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

SigmaNunki,
I saw a show called something like "A Theory of Everything" about string theory. I was wondering, if in our normal 4 dimensions, there are constant phase and spatial relationships in things (EM waves, with direction of propagation and E and M all orthogonal, and E and M at 90 deg phase difference, for example) is there any indication that strings that makes up things in the other dimensions have similar phase relationships? Or is this a silly question? Just wondering.

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Thursday, December 23, 2004 4:59 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

HKCavalier, SignyM, SigmaNunki, and Everyone:

A heartfelt Best Holidays to all.

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Saturday, December 25, 2004 7:38 PM

@rue:
And a heartfelt best holidays back to yourself, HKCavalier, SignyM and everyone else as well

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:36 AM

SGTGUMP

Wow, long post. I guess I'll throw in my two cents.

Probably the most real, and disturbing, dream I’ve had was when I was about 13. I dreamt that I was a woman with long red-blonde hair walking next to a pond just after dark. I heard a horse coming, trotting, toward me. When I looked up the horse and rider where there. The rider must have struck me with something because I fell down, partially in the water. The horse rode away and didn't stop. I remember that I was laying on my back, into the water up to about my ears. My hand was near my head floating in the water. Then the water froze as then night wore on and I lay in the water dying with no one to pull me out. I remember feeling ice crystals form around my fingers. From the time it took me to fall into the pond to the time that it froze took a couple of hours, but it only felt like a few seconds. I woke up after that because I wasn't breathing. That dream has stuck with me pretty good.

I also have dreams where the world ends. Like nuclear holocaust or something. Once I dreamt that I saw the sun rip in half.

The most spiritual dreams I’ve had were the ones where I see dead people that I knew. The first time I remember this happening was when a kid down my street died in a car accident. We really didn't like each other, and I kind of felt bad when he died because of that. A few days later, I was dreaming and I saw him. Everything was blue, even me and him. He was just standing there. There was a small pool of water between us, also blue and calm. We kind of just stood there for a minute looking at each other. And that was it. After that I had no doubt in my mind that wherever he was he had no bad feelings about me, nor had I for him. I have seen a couple of dead people like that, same place, color and pool of water separating us.

That's about all for me. I enjoy reading your stories and am glad that there is a forum where people can post these kinds of things for other open minded people to read.

"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise." - Narrator

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:15 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

SignyM

Quote:
When I was pre-teen to early teen I used to dream poems, parables and chants. Here are a few examples:

(the picture is the world in space, the voice is a woman's gentle voice with the depth of the voice you hear in your head)
Spin yourself some magic
That you can call your own.
Spin yourself a dream,
And the world can spin alone.

(the picture is an arid, rocky sun-drenched Middle-East setting, the voice is a medium-register neutral man's voice)
A man looked upon the world and its various ways, and became confused.
He asked his god - what way am I to follow that's good?
And his god asked him - do you till your field? The man answered - yes.
And his god asked him - do you know your field? And the man answered - yes.
Then his god said - I say to you, you do not know your field. You must go into your field and turn stones, until you know the shape snd shuttle of each stone.
And the man was content from that day.

(the picture is a ridge top with some dead grasses and a bent, twisted evergreen with snow blowing on it, and a dreary sky; the chanting voice is that of an old, old woman)
Snow blows over the hill,
Wind hits cold against my back.
Long as it's winter, I won't look back.
Oh mercy me -
the Joshua tree.

My days be gone,
My friends be dead.
Wrinkled, dry, without a tear.
Here I am, and I won't look back,
Oh lonesome me -
The Joshua tree.

Wind blows over the hill,
Snow hits cold gainst my back,
I don't see far,
But I won't look back.
Oh mercy me -
The Joshua tree.

OK, I got this in the right place now. To put these in context, I dreamed the first when I was 8 or 9, the last when I was 12 or 13. And while I am reasonably certain they came from my mind, they were different from most dreams in that they were not concerned with recent events; and they were things I could never have thought by intention. I did and do look to these dreams for answers to issues as if they were from another source than myself.

And now SignyM, it's your turn ....

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:25 PM

OURMRREYNOLDS

I remember no dreams almost ever. Most people think thats pretty wierd especially since I apparently dream a lot and vividly. Being a heathen pagan

and chaos magician, I have had pretty much every other wierd experience you can think of. I have know things I shouldn't be able to with tarot cards. Visions. I have been a psychic healer with effects on non-believers. I had a ghost for a friend for a while. Her name was Emily and her favorite tricks included making milk and cream curdle in an instant, making soda and beer go flat suddenly, making lights flicker, etc. Any hack could do it at home (see Houdini's late career), but at a restauraunt? Blah blah blah. I could go on for days, but choose to show mercy.

Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:18 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Here's one dream- It's a pretty straightforward parable as a scifi story.

The dream began (as many scifi stories do) with a person being thawed some time in the future. He wakes up in a village which (among other marvels) has "oragnic" houses: bubble-like semisynthetic oragnisms that actively adjust light, heat, and moisture to the preference of the resident. (sleeping platforms absorb sweat and skin flakes, the "toilet" directs nourishment down to the roots etc.) Villages are calm and people are happy.
A cultural event expresses one of their basic tenets, and the event is a dance/performance art competition between temporary teams called a sanyagoing. The sanygoing is invoked on an occasional basis when people feel the need for reconnection... society being like a dance... but the characteristic feature is that anyone who volunteers for any team must be accepted. The winner is the team that makes the best use of all of its members in the short (several day) preparation available.

Three dances occur in the competition which occurs in the time-frame of the story. The first is rousing and muscular: men and women step through a vigorous line-dance, tossing their partners into the air and twirling in an intricate pattern while children clap the beat and the eldery chant and play drums. The audience claps and stomps in time, adding intricacy to the beat, changing rhythm with the dance. The audience as well as the dancers are flushed and smiling at the end.

The second ocurs at dusk. While singing children thread their way through the audience with lit candles, and some elderly people scatter perfumed flowers among the crowd, an on-stage chorus sings a multi-part hymn. When the last of the scent and music has drifted up into the glowing evening sky, everyone is filled with a feeling of peace.

The third performance doesn't begin well. There are two unequal groups semi-organized on-stage, and a scattering of confused-looking individuals. The first group begins to dance, the second joins in a bit late, the first group stops and looks at the second group before sending over a member to explain how things are supposed to go. The audience murmurs while people on-stage rearrange themselves and some of the children are sent off to the side. They start again- another false start, and this time there is disagreement on-stage between the two groups. While they discuss, the audience shifts around and murmurs even more loudly. Then a small group tries to take matters into their own hands by bossing everyone around, while EVERYONE is looking nervously at the audience. The audience begins to chuckle. As the group slowly devolves among contending factions on-stage, the audience laughs louder and louder. Finally, the stage is empty and the audience is laughing uproariously.
They won the compeition, but our atavist doesn't "get it".

And then I woke up....

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:41 PM

CHRISISALL

Well, aren't we the little anarchy demon...?

I fly in my dreams Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:27 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Amazing.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:46 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yeah, behind that hyper-realist facade beats the heart of a dreamer. But don't tell anyone.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:18 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Here is my 'just enough' dream, with a little bit of sheer writing at the end.

She stood on open short-grass prairie, facing west on the crest of a shallow rise, with the bright sun warming her head and shoulder, a fresh cool breeze sifting through her hair, there was a deep blue sky above. A few puffy white clouds cheerfully sailed across the sky. The grasses and forbes that came to her knees were wiry and deep green with scattered blooms. This was early summer, green and brisk, with the smell of dirt and the pungent resin of sun-warmed plants. On the exposed crest of the rise, patches of bare dirt showed sunnily. In front of her the ground dropped to form a long low cliff that ran south to north. Two hundred meters or so to the west a narrow paved road ran south to north, parallel to the cliff. On the far side of the road slightly to the south a man drove a green tractor back and forth, tilling a small plot of fertile earth. Directly across the road, two young children, a girl of six or seven and a smaller boy of three or four played around a square of green corn, chasing and tagging each other, laughing. Their house stood behind them where their mother worked preparing food for winter storage. Beyond that the prairie ran an unbroken green to the far horizon, and on the horizon, unassuming blue foothills lay at the north-west, and a few white topped peaks peered out from behind them.
In this world, great herds of bison roamed, passenger pigeons flew, deep mysterious forests covered the mountainsides, and the rivers flowed clean. The world was un-owned, open, and abundant. And that was her destination, the vast fresh land that called her forward.
It was that way because of the people. They knew that they owed their friendly society, the security of abundance, and their limitless futures to the knowledge that the time to stop taking was when they had - just enough.
Science was precious and technology made life easier and more certain, but the most important thing was to know when you had just enough food, just enough shelter, just enough children, and then stop.
As long as they all remembered that, everyone would look on the world through lighthearted eyes.
The most respected people were the ones who seemed to have the keenest sense of ‘just enough’, especially in their dealings with other people, while inklings of greed in anyone were feared as a malignant insanity. If enough people started grabbing, then everyone else would need to grab too, to try secure an insecure future. And life would be mean and hostile, focused on grabbing first, hoarding and guarding, a ceaseless war of all against all, toward the ultimate end of a future of depleted resources and wasted lives. It would be a barren, hopeless life.
But as long as they did not succumb to the insanity of power, greed and fear life would be plentiful and secure in the present and for all the generations to come.
That wonderful land of just enough existed in the place without the serpent. It was serpent in the garden who had told others that they were only cheating themselves if they settled for plenty, and that, really, they should want more.

In the beginning was all, present, past, and future. And the all was without form. And it laughed to hear the sound of one hand clapping and unclapping, and never having clapped. And from the formlessness god created matter and energy, space and time, and the daemons of heaven were cast out to rule over the impotent domains of that which remained. And the universe crystallized, but the matter did not grow to fill it, thus was time given direction, and energy flowed downhill as a river.
And gods created the heavens and the earth, and it was good.
And from the mud it made life between the formless energy of the sun and the perfect still crystal of cold, in the dreamtime. And god created all the plants and animals thereof, and gods created man to live in delight in the garden of eden.
Desert and sea bounded the garden. Man ate of the riches of the sea and the earth. And the garden was peaceable for predators it could not support. And man grew to live in the light of day, achieve great age, and babes were few and helpless and must to be cradled in arms. And they spoke of the things that were, in the dreamtime, the food and the water and the children, and it was good.
But there was a woman born who ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for she spoke late; from thought she brought forth words for that which was not.
And so, they cast themselves from the garden onto the face of the earth, seeking that which was not, and called it good. Thus man cast themselves from the garden seeking the lie.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 9:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wow. The malignancy of greed and fear. We should fear it, but instead we revere it. No wonder our planet is f*cked.

In strictly pedestrian terms, game theory says that a cooperative society is possible. The key to sustaining cooperation is that it must remain a fairly large portion of the population, so that the uncooperative remain deviants and not become the norm. Your description of the "greed dynamic" is crystal clear. There is threshold, or "tipping point", beyond which greed/ noncooperation will take over a previously cooperative society if left to its own dynmaic. In order to keep greed from establishing its own dynamic, there must be a negative feeback loop that controls it. One of the interesting things is that people is horizontal societies are in fact quite capable of nipping greed in the bud as long as the greedy can be confronted face to face. Apparently that feedback loop doesn't work well in vertical socieites, or that it CAN work but we just haven't figured out how to do it. I'm neither a game theorist nor a sociologist so I don't have even an inkling of an answer for that one.

Archaelogy tells us that it is possible to have a large, horizontal society that is apparently not driven by greed or fear. The ancient cities around Mohenjo-Daro are engimas to us, begin large and technologically developed (for the time), well-planned and equitable habitations without temples, ramparts, armories, city goverment buildings etc.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but your dream sparked a LOT of thoughts. It's interesting to wonder where dreams like this come from when they are so far out of anything that one has ever experienced. I've enjoyed reading your dreams, I hope you post more.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 12:52 PM