REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Citizenship Question On Census

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Thursday, July 23, 2020 22:38
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Thursday, June 27, 2019 7:57 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


SCOTUS issued a ruling today, with numerous parts and splinters.


I heard that the most scathing opinion was another excellent one from Justice Thomas.


Here is one article I found which seems to have details:

Justice Clarence Thomas filed an opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part, which was joined by Gorsuch and Kavanaugh. In his view, the Supreme Court’s “only role in this case is to decide whether the Secretary complied with the law and gave a reasoned explanation for his decision.” Because the “Court correctly answers these questions in the affirmative,” Thomas argued, that “ought to end our inquiry.”

Thomas warned that the court’s holding could have much broader implications for administrative law because it “reflects an unprecedented departure” from the court’s normal practice of deferring to discretionary decisions by federal agencies. “It is not difficult,” he posited, “for political opponents of executive actions to generate controversy with accusations of pretext, deceit, and illicit motives.” “Crediting these accusations on evidence as thin as the evidence here could lead judicial review of administrative proceedings to devolve into an endless morass of discovery and policy disputes,” he cautioned.



https://www.scotusblog.com/2019/06/opinion-analysis-court-orders-do-ov
er-on-citizenship-question-in-census-case/



Amy Howe Independent Contractor and Reporter

Posted Thu, June 27th, 2019 5:50 pm
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Opinion analysis: Court orders do-over on citizenship question in census case (Updated)

Editor’s Note: This post, originally published at 12:49 p.m., was expanded at 5:48 p.m.

The fate of a question about citizenship on the 2020 census remains up in the air today. Although the Trump administration had hoped that the Supreme Court would clear the way for it to include such a question, the justices instead sent the issue back to the Department of Commerce. In a deeply fractured opinion, Chief Justice John Roberts joined the court’s four liberal justices in ruling that the justification that the government offered at the time for including the citizenship question was just a pretext. The decision left open the possibility that the Trump administration could try again to add the citizenship question, but the clock is ticking: The government has repeatedly told the justices, in urging them to resolve the case quickly, that it needs to finalize the census questionnaire by the end of this month.

Chief Justice Roberts announces opinion in Department of Commerce v. New York (Art Lien)

The dispute began last year, when Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross announced that the 2020 census would include a question about citizenship. Questions about citizenship have been used on the census before, although since 1950 such questions have only been asked on forms that go to some (but not all) households. The government wanted to ask everyone about their citizenship on the 2020 census, Ross explained, to obtain data that would help the Department of Justice to better enforce federal voting-rights laws.

Ross’ announcement drew an immediate legal challenge from New York and other state and local governments, as well as immigrants’ rights groups. The challengers contended that including a question about citizenship on the census will lead to inaccurate results, because households with undocumented or Hispanic immigrants won’t respond. And that, they argued, could lead states with large immigrant populations – which tend to lean Democratic – to lose billions in federal funding and possible even seats in the U.S. House of Representatives.

With the stakes so high, the dispute proved to be a particularly contentious one. The government came to the Supreme Court for the first time last fall, asking the justices to block the depositions of Ross and John Gore, a senior official in the Department of Justice, and to bar the district court from allowing additional fact-finding outside the official record for the decision. The Supreme Court gave the government a partial victory, barring the challengers from deposing Ross but allowing the deposition of Gore and the additional fact-finding.

In November 2018, the justices agreed to weigh in on the clash over evidence. But that case was transformed into a review of the merits of the dispute after a federal district judge in New York blocked the government from including the question. Judge Jesse Furman ruled that, in deciding to include a question about citizenship, Ross had committed a “smorgasbord of classic, clear-cut violations” of the federal law governing administrative agencies.

The government appealed directly to the Supreme Court, urging the justices to take up the case immediately – without requiring the government to first seek relief from a federal appeals court. Time is of the essence, the government told the justices: It needs to know whether it can include the citizenship question by the end of June, so that it can finalize the census questionnaire and start to print the forms.

The justices granted the government’s request in February. In addition to the question of whether Ross’ decision complied with federal laws governing administrative agencies, the justices also asked the federal government and the challengers to brief whether the decision to include the citizenship question violates the Constitution, which requires an “actual Enumeration” of the U.S. population every 10 years. The addition came after a federal judge in California ruled that the use of the citizenship question also violates the “enumeration clause”; the government wanted to avoid a scenario in which it prevailed in the Supreme Court but was nonetheless prohibited from including the citizenship question by a different lower-court ruling on an issue that the Supreme Court hadn’t addressed.

The justices heard oral argument in the case in late April. Although most cases are quiet after oral argument, the oral argument in this one was followed by a series of events worthy of a made-for-TV movie. In late May, the challengers notified the justices about new evidence indicating that Thomas Hofeller, a Republican redistricting strategist, had played a key role in the decision to add the citizenship question to the census, and that the question had been added to provide whites and Republicans with an advantage in future elections. The evidence came from several hard drives that Hofeller’s estranged daughter had found while going through his things after his death last year. Stephanie Hofeller had shared the hard drives with the North Carolina chapter of the watchdog group Common Cause, which is involved in a partisan-gerrymandering case in that state, after she called the group seeking a recommendation for a lawyer for her mother.

The challengers returned to the Supreme Court last week. Emphasizing that the district court had agreed that the new allegations were “serious” but concluded that its hands were tied because the case is now before the justices, the challengers told the Supreme Court that it should either uphold the district court’s ruling or send the case back to the lower court for more fact-finding in light of the new revelations. The challengers argued that if the Trump administration actually wanted to add the citizenship question to give an advantage to whites and Republicans, that would be “the diametric opposite” of what the administration has maintained throughout this lawsuit.

The government pushed back, dismissing the challengers’ allegations as a “conspiracy theory” that was “implausible on its face” and urging the justices to go ahead and decide the case.

Things became even more interesting – and, for the justices, more complicated – earlier this week. On Tuesday, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit sent another challenge to the use of the citizenship question back to a federal district court in Maryland so that the lower court could consider, in light of the new evidence, whether Ross had added the question because he intended to discriminate against Hispanics. In a concurring opinion, Judge James Wynn suggested that U.S. District Judge George Hazel might want to consider whether to temporarily block the government from including the citizenship question on the census questionnaire. The 4th Circuit’s order led to another flurry of last-minute filings in the Supreme Court. In a letter to the justices on Tuesday afternoon, the federal government again implored the justices to go ahead and resolve the dispute over the citizenship question now, including the question whether Ross had intended to discriminate against Hispanics. The government had addressed this issue in its brief in the Supreme Court, Solicitor General Noel Francisco stressed. And in any event, because the census questionnaire needs to be finalized by the end of June, the 4th Circuit’s order makes it likely that the justices will inevitably have to tackle this question one way or another, so it would be better to do so now in this case, instead of having to do it on an emergency basis in the Maryland case.

The challengers responded on Wednesday afternoon. In a letter from New York Solicitor General Barbara Underwood, they urged the justices to deny what they characterized as the government’s “extraordinary request” to decide the discrimination question now. Except for a “single conclusory paragraph” in the government’s brief, they emphasized, the issue wasn’t briefed or argued in the case in the Supreme Court.

It was no surprise that Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the court in the case – both because of the magnitude of the ruling and because he had not yet written an opinion for April, when the case was argued. The court’s disposition of the case, however, proved more surprising – and took a few minutes to decipher, given the splintered nature of the decision.

Only the first parts of the ruling were unanimous. The first laid out the facts and procedural history of the case, while in the second part the justices agreed that at least some challengers have a legal right – known as “standing” – to bring their lawsuit. Some of the states in the lawsuit have shown, Roberts recounted, that if households with residents who are not U.S. citizens are undercounted by even two percent, they will lose federal funding. The justices rejected the government’s argument that such losses are too hypothetical, because they would only happen if those households choose not to comply with the legal duty to return their census questionnaires out of fear that the information will be used against them – which, the government says, is not its fault. But this theory isn’t just speculation, Roberts concluded: It “relies instead on the predictable effect of Government action on the decisions of third parties” and is therefore enough to allow the challengers to sue.

The court’s other conservative justices – Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh – joined the third part of the Roberts opinion, in which the court concluded that the decision to add the citizenship question did not run afoul of the enumeration clause. Whether the decision bears a “reasonable relationship” to getting an accurate headcount isn’t the right question to ask here, Roberts reasoned. Otherwise, the Census Bureau would never be able to ask any questions about demographics on the census, because none of those have anything to do with the number of people who live in the United States. Instead, Roberts noted, the court should look at the history of the census, and that history shows that all “three branches of Government have understood the Constitution to allow Congress, and by extension the Secretary, to use the census for more than simply counting the population,” and specifically for “information-gathering purposes.” Therefore, Roberts concluded, the enumeration clause “permits Congress, and by extension the Secretary, to inquire about citizenship on the census questionnaire.”

Six justices – all but Alito and Gorsuch – joined the next subsection of Roberts’ opinion, in which the court rejected the government’s contention that the Census Act gives Ross carte blanche – not subject to review by courts – to decide what questions to include on the census questionnaire. The court acknowledged that the Secretary of Commerce has significant latitude in formulating the questionnaire, but it emphasized that his discretion was not “unbounded.” The census is not a subject that has been “traditionally committed” to the discretion of the agency in charge; indeed, the court noted, courts have previously reviewed several challenges arising from decisions relating to the census.

Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh signed on to the next two parts of Roberts’ opinion. In the first, the court reversed two parts of the district court’s ruling that overturned Ross’ decision to add the citizenship question. Addressing the district court’s conclusion that the decision wasn’t supported by the evidence before Ross, because the Census Bureau had recommended that the citizenship data be gathered from administrative records instead, Roberts observed that neither approach was perfect, so it was reasonable for Ross to decide to use the citizenship question instead of the administrative records. And it was also reasonable for him to decide that it would be worth it to include the citizenship question even though that might result in a lower response rate from households with residents who are not U.S. citizens, Roberts suggested – particularly because Ross believed that the risk of a lower response rate was “difficult to assess.”

Roberts and his conservative colleagues also reversed the district court’s ruling that Ross’ decision violated provisions of the Census Act that require the Secretary of Commerce to use administrative records, rather than questions on the census, whenever possible and to inform Congress about his plans for the census. The court explained that, even if the provision about the administrative records applies, Ross reasonably concluded that administrative records would not “provide the more complete and accurate data that DOJ sought.” And although Ross did notify Congress about his plan to include the citizenship question, Roberts wrote, there was certainly no harm from any technical violation of the requirement because Ross “fully informed Congress of, and explained, his decision.”

Roberts and his conservative colleagues parted ways in the fifth and final – and ultimately dispositive – part of the court’s opinion. The district court had also ruled that Ross’ rationale for including the citizenship question – that the Department of Justice had asked for the data to better enforce federal voting-rights laws – was a pretext for its actual reasoning, and here Roberts, in an opinion joined by Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan, agreed. “The evidence showed,” Roberts wrote, that Ross “was determined to reinstate a citizenship question from the time he entered office; instructed his staff to make it happen; waited while Commerce officials explored whether another agency would request census-based citizenship data; subsequently contacted the Attorney General himself to ask if DOJ would make the request; and adopted the Voting Rights Act rationale late in the process.” Taking that evidence in its entirety, Roberts determined, “we share the District Court’s conviction that the decision to reinstate a citizenship question cannot be adequately explained in terms of DOJ’s request for improved citizenship data to better enforce the” Voting Rights Act.

Roberts acknowledged that courts should be “deferential” when reviewing an agency’s action, but he countered – citing Judge Henry Friendly, for whom he clerked on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit – that “we are not required to exhibit a naiveté from which ordinary citizens are free.” And here, when “the evidence tells a story that does not match the explanation the Secretary gave for his decision,” judicial review calls for “something better than the explanation offered for the action taken in this case.” “In these unusual circumstances,” Roberts concluded, the district court was therefore correct to send the case back to the Department of Commerce for it to provide a better explanation. “Reasoned decisionmaking,” Roberts emphasized, “calls for an explanation for agency action. What was provided here was more of a distraction.”

Justice Clarence Thomas filed an opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part, which was joined by Gorsuch and Kavanaugh. In his view, the Supreme Court’s “only role in this case is to decide whether the Secretary complied with the law and gave a reasoned explanation for his decision.” Because the “Court correctly answers these questions in the affirmative,” Thomas argued, that “ought to end our inquiry.”

Thomas warned that the court’s holding could have much broader implications for administrative law because it “reflects an unprecedented departure” from the court’s normal practice of deferring to discretionary decisions by federal agencies. “It is not difficult,” he posited, “for political opponents of executive actions to generate controversy with accusations of pretext, deceit, and illicit motives.” “Crediting these accusations on evidence as thin as the evidence here could lead judicial review of administrative proceedings to devolve into an endless morass of discovery and policy disputes,” he cautioned.

The court’s four liberal justices joined Roberts in agreeing to send the case back to the Department of Commerce, but Justice Stephen Breyer also filed an opinion that was joined by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan. They maintained that, even if Ross’ decision to add the citizenship question wasn’t pretextual, it still violated the federal laws governing administrative agencies because he decided to ask the question even though all of the evidence “indicated that asking the question would produce citizenship data that is less accurate, not more.” His failure to consider what Breyer characterized as “a severe risk of harmful consequences” “risked undermining public confidence in the integrity of our democratic system itself,” Breyer wrote.

Justice Samuel Alito also filed an opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part. He began by lamenting that it “is a sign of our time that the inclusion of a question about citizenship on the census has become a subject of bitter public controversy and has led to today’s regrettable decision.” There is no dispute, he continued, that “it is important to know how many inhabitants of this country are citizens”; given that, he said, the best way to “gather this information is to ask for it in a census” – as the United Nations recommends. He would have ruled that the decision to add the citizenship question to the census fell within the discretion of the Department of Commerce and could not be challenged at all. He “put the point bluntly,” writing that the federal judiciary has “no authority to stick its nose into the question whether it is good policy to include a citizenship question on the census or whether the reasons given by Secretary Ross for that decision were his only reasons or his real reasons.”

The Department of Justice did not tip its hand about its possible next steps. In a statement this afternoon, spokeswoman Kelly Laco indicated that the government was “disappointed” by the ruling but would “continue to defend this Administration’s lawful exercises of executive power.” President Donald Trump had a stronger reaction, tweeting that it seemed “totally ridiculous” that the citizenship question could not be used and indicating that he had asked “the lawyers if they can delay the Census, no matter how long, until the United States Supreme Court is given additional information from which it can make a final and decisive decision on this very critical matter.” With the government’s June 30 deadline for finalizing the census questionnaire looming, we may know more about the government’s plans soon.

This post was originally published at Howe on the Court.

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Thursday, June 27, 2019 8:02 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


One think I try to keep clear is the changing definitions of the terms. Libtards are working feverishly to have all terms of The Constitution redefined by their current slang usage.


Person:

Citizen: Granted Citizenship by each State in which the Citizen resides.

Non-Citizen Resident: such as Visa Entrants.

Resident:

The term for Illegal Alien roaming the country, evading Law Enforcement, was not clearly established, because at the time such people would be in Prison, and not worthy of representation, not having Right to Vote, etc.


These could try to be matched to the terms in effect at the time.
Native American, Sovereign, choosing to not be a US Citizen.
US Citizen, granted by the State.
Non-Citizen, legally entered and residing in the country.
Prisoners, Incarcerated, including all Illegal Aliens not still eluding Law Enforcement.
Residents of Territories.
Citizens of a State, but traveling or Migrated to another State or Territory.

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Thursday, June 27, 2019 8:13 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


With Census Decision, Chief Justice John Roberts said Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross is a Liar

Today the Supreme Court agreed with the government that a citizenship question on the 2020 Census could be legal, if justified by a legitimate reason.

Writing for the majority, Chief Justice John Roberts said Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross’s justification for adding the citizenship question was “contrived,” and remanded the decision back to the lower courts.

The ruling essentially says, ‘You can’t give a fake reason.’ Ross would now have to give a real reason, but the time window is closing quickly on that. And if Ross can come up with a justification, derived from a reasonable decision-making process, it would still have to survive the scrutiny of New York City District Judge Jesse Furman, to whom the case has been remanded. But Furman has no shortage of skepticism for Ross.

The court’s characteristically narrow ruling, however, elides the most important revelation of the census saga: that the Donald Trump administration allied with anti-immigrant demagogues and the architects of Republican gerrymandering in an effort to specifically suppress the political power and participation of immigrants and people of color. Emails released by the Commerce Department during litigation revealed that former Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, mastermind of nationwide voter suppression efforts, wrote to Ross in July 2017, “at the direction of Steve Bannon,” urging him to add a citizenship question because its absence “leads to the problem that aliens . . . are still counted for congressional apportionment purposes.”

Then, earlier this month, it was reported that the late Tom Hofeller, a Republican National Committee redistricting expert, had urged the Trump transition team to adopt a citizenship question after determining that it “would clearly be a disadvantage to the Democrats” and “advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites.” A paragraph drafted by Hofeller and found on his hard drive by his estranged daughter supported the premise that citizenship data would help enforce the Voting Rights Act. That paragraph later appeared word for word in a draft letter from the Justice Department to the Census Bureau requesting the citizenship question.

This accumulation of evidence suggests not just that Ross’s justification — to Congress and the public — was a lie (or, as Roberts would put it, a “contrivance”), but that the real motive was the one suspected by Democrats and civil rights advocates from the outset: to transfer political power from minority communities to white people in red states.

More at https://theintercept.com/2019/06/27/census-citizenship-question-suprem
e-court/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, June 27, 2019 8:50 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Democrats don't want the census question because Federal funds are doled out to areas based off of the number of legitimate citizens that are in said areas.

They're ESPECIALLY against this question being asked with the threat that Trump is going to send the overflow of illegals to so-called sanctuary cities that will go bankrupt rather quickly when they have to provide welfare for anywhere from thousands to millions of illegals with no Federal assistance for the task.

This is the ONLY truth of the matter.


Anybody screaming "muh racism!" is either an idiot or is knowingly attacking the truth.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, June 27, 2019 9:37 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Democrats don't want the census question because Federal funds are doled out to areas based off of the number of legitimate citizens that are in said areas.

They're ESPECIALLY against this question being asked with the threat that Trump is going to send the overflow of illegals to so-called sanctuary cities that will go bankrupt rather quickly when they have to provide welfare for anywhere from thousands to millions of illegals with no Federal assistance for the task.

This is the ONLY truth of the matter.


Anybody screaming "muh racism!" is either an idiot or is knowingly attacking the truth.

Do Right, Be Right. :)
6ix, the number of representatives in Congress is based on population counted in the Census, not on citizenship. Back when the Constitution was being written, everybody was counted, including non-citizens and even slaves. The only people excluded were the Indians. That has NOT changed, but the GOP is trying to sneak in a change without revising the Constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constit
ution#Clause_3:_Apportionment_of_Representatives_and_taxes

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, June 27, 2019 10:25 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm not talking about representatives.

I'm talking about Federal funds, which is directly tied to the amount of legit citizens.

I've already posted this with a link in another thread. Go find that, or google it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, June 27, 2019 11:12 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm not talking about representatives.

I'm talking about Federal funds, which is directly tied to the amount of legit citizens.

I've already posted this with a link in another thread. Go find that, or google it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)
6ix, there is nothing in the Constitution that requires "Federal funds" to be "directly tied to the amount of legit citizens" counted by the census in a state. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security (the biggest Federal programs) don't have any of your imaginary ties to what the Census says the state's citizen population is. But the Constitution certainly requires the Census to count everyone, except Indians. There is no Constitutional way to convince people to lie about living inside a State, but there is a sneaky way that Trump wanted to use.

Interestingly, the amount of direct taxes that could be collected by the federal government from the people in any State would still be tied directly to that state's share of the national population. The Federal Taxes were directly proportional to state population measured by the Census. But once again, Indians don't get counted. There's laws about who's Indian and who ain't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Citizenship_Act

Due to this restriction, application of the income tax to income derived from real estate and specifically income in the form of dividends from personal property ownership such as stock shares was found to be unconstitutional because it was not apportioned among the states; that is to say, there was no guarantee that a State with 10% of the country's population paid 10% of those income taxes collected, because Congress had not fixed an amount of money to be raised and apportioned it between the States according to their respective shares of the national population. To permit the levying of such an income tax, Congress proposed and the states ratified the Sixteenth Amendment in 1913, which removed the restriction by specifically providing that Congress could levy a tax on income "from whatever source derived" without it being apportioned among the States or otherwise based on a State's share of the national population.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendments/ame
ndment-xvi

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, June 27, 2019 11:29 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Nobody gives a shit, Second.

What you're advocating for here, HARD, is giving tax money taken from legal tax paying citizens away to illegals who leach off the system. You're also saying that we shouldn't be able to determine this using the census.

Tough titty for you, idiot. That is EXACTLY what is going to happen now.




Federal judges in place and the new makeup of the Supreme Court pretty much ensures this is finally going to happen.





Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, June 27, 2019 11:52 PM

JONGSSTRAW


The whole thing is stupid. Anyone can just check the box that they're a citizen. It's not like there's a Census Police to verify it. Even the IRS, with all its resources, is only able to audit 1% of tax returns.


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Thursday, June 27, 2019 11:56 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Nobody gives a shit, Second.

What you're advocating for here, HARD, is giving tax money taken from legal tax paying citizens away to illegals who leach off the system. You're also saying that we shouldn't be able to determine this using the census.

Tough titty for you, idiot. That is EXACTLY what is going to happen now.

Do Right, Be Right. :)
6ix, obviously to me, you don't understand what is happening right in front of your face, but from years of experience I know that has never been obvious to you.

Your lack of interest in understanding details is why you and the Trump voters I know are either poor or living troubled lives. Trump voters can't hide, except from themselves, how badly they fucked up their own lives. They blame most of their problems on anybody but themselves. I've never seen blame-shifting actually work, but for you, maybe it will. If you don't become interested in the details of how life really works, the modern world will rip your money off and leave you completely confused about how it happened to you. Then a fraud and conman such as Trump will give you a false explanation. Go ahead and believe him, but it will do you no good.

And that "giving tax money taken from legal tax paying citizens away to illegals who leach off the system"? It is tax paying citizens that leach off the system. For one example, some fancy (and very false) paperwork convinced the Federal government to pay a crook $511 million:
www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-06-24/the-polygamist-who-allegedl
y-scammed-the-u-s-out-of-a-half-billion-dollars

Need I mention hundreds of billions of dollars per year of crookedness is happening? It is being done by tax paying citizens, not aliens, ripping off the Federal Government.
www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/04/29/IRS-Now-Pegs-Tax-Cheating-Americans-
458-Billion-Annually

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, June 28, 2019 3:16 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


There's also nothing in the Constitution that requires information about household income, age and birth date, ethnic group, disabilities, mode of transportation to get to work, 'fertility' ... and so on.

https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/2020/operations
/planned-questions-2020-acs.pdf

And 'citizenship' questions have been asked before.

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-be
en-a-standard-census-question
"The last time a citizenship question was among the census questions for ALL U.S. households was in 1950." "Starting in 1970, questions about citizenship were included in the long-form questionnaire but not the short form." "Later, the census added the American Community Survey, conducted every year and sent to 3.5 million households. It began being fully implemented in 2005. It asks many of the same questions as the census long-form surveys from 1970 to 2000, including the citizenship question."



This is just another faux outrage.


And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Friday, June 28, 2019 5:48 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
One think I try to keep clear is the changing definitions of the terms. Libtards are working feverishly to have all terms of The Constitution redefined by their current slang usage.


Person:

Citizen: Granted Citizenship by each State in which the Citizen resides.

Non-Citizen Resident: such as Visa Entrants.

Resident:

The term for Illegal Alien roaming the country, evading Law Enforcement, was not clearly established, because at the time such people would be in Prison, and not worthy of representation, not having Right to Vote, etc.


These could try to be matched to the terms in effect at the time.
Native American, Sovereign, choosing to not be a US Citizen.
US Citizen, granted by the State.
Non-Citizen, legally entered and residing in the country.
Prisoners, Incarcerated, including all Illegal Aliens not still eluding Law Enforcement.
Residents of Territories.
Citizens of a State, but traveling or Migrated to another State or Territory.
Looking through this, The Constitution uses the term "free persons" as well as "Natives, not taxed" and "three fifths of all other persons." I see no reference that any Incarcerated person or Outlaw person subject to Incarceration or Deportation would be included in the term "free person."
The 14 Amendment changed some of this. It was to deal with the recently freed former Slaves, and their Citizenship and Rights. The term "free person" was changed to "persons" but the term Slave was used to describe those Incarcerated for commission of crimes. The Slavery for reasons OTHER than commission of crime had been outlawed.
This seems to still exclude Criminals, Incarcerated, Outlaws evading Incarceration or Deportation from the "persons" to be counted in the Census. Illegal Aliens would soundly land in this group.

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Saturday, June 29, 2019 10:28 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Well if the census can't provide this single simple service of accurate accounting, I recommend getting rid of the entire costly endeavor in the first place.

It sounds as if through incompetence or willful neglect, it's lost it's ability to provide any sort of valuable information and has outlived its purpose.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, June 29, 2019 11:23 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well if the census can't provide this single simple service of accurate accounting, I recommend getting rid of the entire costly endeavor in the first place.

It sounds as if through incompetence or willful neglect, it's lost it's ability to provide any sort of valuable information and has outlived its purpose.

Do Right, Be Right. :)
A more valuable question for the Census would be about Income Tax Evasion. How much Income did you have for each of the last 10 years? There will be a criminal penalty for lying to the Census-taker and a "guarantee" from Trump that the IRS won't be told. If the Census can't "provide any sort of valuable information" it "has outlived its purpose."

6ix, the Constitution requires a Census every 10 years. That's its purpose.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, June 29, 2019 11:33 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Looking through this, The Constitution uses the term "free persons" as well as "Natives, not taxed" and "three fifths of all other persons." I see no reference that any Incarcerated person or Outlaw person subject to Incarceration or Deportation would be included in the term "free person."
The 14 Amendment changed some of this. It was to deal with the recently freed former Slaves, and their Citizenship and Rights. The term "free person" was changed to "persons" but the term Slave was used to describe those Incarcerated for commission of crimes. The Slavery for reasons OTHER than commission of crime had been outlawed.
This seems to still exclude Criminals, Incarcerated, Outlaws evading Incarceration or Deportation from the "persons" to be counted in the Census. Illegal Aliens would soundly land in this group.
You better look, again. Start at www.prisonersofthecensus.org/faq.html

Q: Why does the Census count incarcerated people if they can't vote?
A: The Census counts everybody, including children and non-citizens, neither of whom can vote.

Q: Does the census count incarcerated people, including children and non-citizens, as if they were residents of the towns where they are incarcerated?
A: Yes.

Q: How does the Census count incarcerated people?
A: The Census sends forms to every American household with the question "How many people were living or staying in this house, apartment or mobile home on April 1, 2010?" The form instructs respondents to exclude certain residents, including household members incarcerated in correctional facilities. To count incarcerated people, census takers visit prisons and distribute forms or collect the necessary data from administrators. Regardless of how their forms are filled out, the Census assigns incarcerated people to the address of the prison.

Q: Have incarcerated people always been counted at the prison?
A: Yes. However, until the era of mass incarceration, the Bureau's practice amounted to little more than a trivial quirk. (If fact, the Census Bureau didn't mention incarcerated people in the printed instructions prior to the 1990 Census because incarceration was still rare enough that it didn't matter.)

Q: Are people incarcerated in federal prisons counted the same way?
A: Yes, even though people under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Prisons are often incarcerated out of state, they are still counted at the location of the prison, not at at their address of residence.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 9:57 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well if the census can't provide this single simple service of accurate accounting, I recommend getting rid of the entire costly endeavor in the first place.

It sounds as if through incompetence or willful neglect, it's lost it's ability to provide any sort of valuable information and has outlived its purpose.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

6ix, the Constitution requires a Census every 10 years. That's its purpose.


Yeah. So what?

If it no longer does what it was designed to do in the first place and we keep doing it anyhow, I don't see how that's any different than Shirley Jackson's Lottery.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 10:15 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:

6ix, the Constitution requires a Census every 10 years. That's its purpose.


Yeah. So what?

If it no longer does what it was designed to do in the first place and we keep doing it anyhow, I don't see how that's any different than Shirley Jackson's Lottery.
The last Census, in 2010, increased Texas's Representatives in Congress by four seats. That was the purpose of the last Census. That will be the only purpose of the next Census.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congressional_apportionmen
t#Changes_following_the_2010_census


Texas will gain 3 seats in the House of Representatives after the 2020 Census: www.brennancenter.org/potential-shifts-political-power-after-2020-cens
us

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 10:27 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


You're extremely hyper-focused on Texas, Second. You are aware there are 49 other states, correct?



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 11:26 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You're extremely hyper-focused on Texas, Second. You are aware there are 49 other states, correct?

Do Right, Be Right. :)
I am very aware that Republicans control more than 41 Seats in the Senate, which is a problem for Texas when the rules of the Senate allow 41 stubborn Senators who are not Texans to block anything, no matter how important it is for Texas. And those 41 don't need any reason, whatsoever, other than they feel like it. Would you want a minority of 41%, made up of absolute strangers, sabotaging anything they please? The rules of the Senate need to be fixed and that will never happen without the House of Representatives forcing the issue, much like the House of Commons forced the issue on the House of Lords, which was one inspiration for the US Senate.

The Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949 effectively abolished the power of the House of Lords to reject legislation, or to amend it in a way unacceptable to the House of Commons: most bills could be delayed for no more than one calendar year. Similarly, the US Senate definitely needs to lose power. For now, the Senate can delay forever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_Acts_1911_and_1949

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 1:28 PM

REAVERFAN


Thomas?

When is that fascist token loser going to die, already?

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Tuesday, July 2, 2019 5:12 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You're extremely hyper-focused on Texas, Second. You are aware there are 49 other states, correct?

Do Right, Be Right. :)
You know what would happen if Alaska decided to split into 2 States of equal size?
Texas would become the 3rd largest State.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2019 8:14 PM

REAVERFAN


I'm always amazed that Russian trolls would come to such a tiny forum, expose themselves as total liars, and expect that anyone with a room-temperature IQ would believe them.

That's why your only friend is Jack-off. He's that dumb.

The rest of us are literate.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 9:01 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You're extremely hyper-focused on Texas, Second. You are aware there are 49 other states, correct?

Do Right, Be Right. :)
You know what would happen if Alaska decided to split into 2 States of equal size?
Texas would become the 3rd largest State.
A quirk of a 19th-century Congressional resolution could allow Texas to split up into five states, for a total of 10 Senators — a power no other state has because no other state was a nation before joining the United States. Alaska can't split since it was Russian land.
www.smithsonianmag.com/history/more-150-years-texas-has-had-power-sece
de-itself-180962354/

Texas’ claim comes straight from the 1845 joint congressional resolution admitting Texas into the Union. It reads: “New States of convenient size not exceeding four in number, in addition to said State of Texas and having sufficient population, may, hereafter by the consent of said State, be formed out of the territory thereof, which shall be entitled to admission under the provisions of the Federal Constitution.”

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 3:35 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


lol

I guess "literacy" around these parts requires you to be angry all the time, wish death on people who don't agree with you and to threaten other people daily.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 6:37 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Who got the story right? 1) Trump or 2) Fox News?

1) Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump tweeted Wednesday:
The News Reports about the Department of Commerce dropping its quest to put the Citizenship Question on the Census is incorrect or, to state it differently, FAKE! We are absolutely moving forward, as we must, because of the importance of the answer to this question.
8:06 AM - 3 Jul 2019
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146435093491277824

2) The Trump administration’s decision to abandon its efforts to include a citizenship question on the 2020 Census represents the sad and aggravating end to what should have been an easy fight.
www.foxnews.com/opinion/deroy-murdock-trump-botches-citizenship-questi
on-with-too-much-lawyering-and-too-little-explanation

No threatened or promised action can be trusted until, in fact, it has happened. And even then, you have to leave a little margin for a post-decision re-decision, kind of like watching an airplane take off and then suddenly turn around and land.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 10:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"No threatened or promised action can be trusted until, in fact, it has happened."

You're learning. Nothing Trump says, or tweets, is worth paying attention to. So stop hyper-reacting to every stupid thing, already. It's pointless, and furthermore, distracts you from your goals.

You already have, or should have, a general idea of what he wants to do re any particular topic. So, for example, war with Iran? CHECK. Securing the southern border? CHECK. Better trade dynamic with China? CHECK. Normalize relations with Russia? CHECK. Realize that war with Iran and normalized relations with Russia are incompatible? BZZZT!

Everything else is part of a negotiation strategy of an endless blizzard of bluster. Which is why nobody trusts him. Even after he seems to have reached an agreement, you never know if it's just another endless blizzard of bluster move. Just another Jackson Pollock painting, without the art.



He is, as has been noted by people far smarter than me, "not agreement capable".


BTW, if I were Putin, I would exploit Trump's biggest weakness, which is the need to be seen as a 'winner'. I would humor him publicly.

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Thursday, July 4, 2019 5:15 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

You already have, or should have, a general idea of what he wants to do re any particular topic. Securing the southern border? CHECK.

Everything else is part of a negotiation strategy of an endless blizzard of bluster.
It is not a strategy. Trump lets the news media control his mouth. That is stupid. Stupid people seldom get what they want.

Presented with a choice between the reality established by the courts or a potential blow to his standing in his political base, Trump made a familiar move: "The News Reports about the Department of Commerce dropping its quest to put the Citizenship Question on the Census is incorrect or, to state it differently, FAKE!" Trump tweeted.

It would not be the first time that Trump has bowed to the conservative media machine. He backed out of a deal with Democrats on "Securing the southern border" amid conservative media fury over the compromise.

But the head-spinning developments on Wednesday pose deeper questions than Trump's relationship with his conservative base.

They stir fresh uncertainty about his respect for the rulings of the courts -- including the Supreme Court. Given the President's refusal to submit to constitutionally authorized congressional oversight, this will shortly become even more acute.

www.cnn.com/2019/07/04/politics/donald-trump-immigration-census-2020-c
ourts/index.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, July 4, 2019 2:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And yet, you react to Trump's stupidities as if you were one of Pavlov's dogs salivating at a bell. Talk about mindless.

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Friday, July 5, 2019 11:08 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, you react to Trump's stupidities as if you were one of Pavlov's dogs salivating at a bell. Talk about mindless.
1kiki, the way you write, you have no genuine interest in what is happening. It's all games and posturing with you. Are you scoring points somewhere for some real, yet hidden, purpose?

The government estimated Trump's census question would decrease Hispanic participation by more than five percent, leading to fewer government resources and less congressional representation in areas with large Latino populations — most of which just happen to be in predominantly Democratic states and districts.

Last week, the Supreme Court called Trump’s bluff. The court held that a citizenship question could, in theory, be valid, legal, and constitutional. However, Chief Justice Roberts continued, the government had lied, over and over again, about the real reason -- to decrease the count -- for adding the question to the census. That violated the law.

Trump's problem is that the government has said throughout this litigation that it needed to start printing the census forms by July 1. Today is July 5th. So, even if Trump's government could come up with a valid, truthful reason for adding the question, time is up. But trying anyway will prolong the political battle, allowing Trump to score more points with his base. 1kiki, are you scoring points, too? Who is your base? What is your purpose here? Be truthful, unlike Trump's people when they went to the Supreme Court. Or lie cleverly. I won't be able to tell if you are lying because I won't have access to your bosses' documents like New York state got against Trump's government. Certain hard drives left behind by a dead man were located that gave the real story. Department of Commerce v. New York was a very tangled case, full of misleading arguments and outright lies by the GOP.

www.scotusblog.com/2019/06/opinion-analysis-court-orders-do-over-on-ci
tizenship-question-in-census-case/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, July 6, 2019 4:50 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I've been reminded of a quote, perhaps it was by Andrew Jackson.
The Court has issued it's ruling. Now let's see them enforce it.
What happens if Trump print the Census forms with the question, and just says they have a different reason for the question?

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Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Nothing Trump says, or tweets, is worth paying attention to.
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Everything else is part of a negotiation strategy of an endless blizzard of bluster.
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, you react to Trump's stupidities as if you were one of Pavlov's dogs salivating at a bell. Talk about mindless.
Quote:
Originally posted by SECOND:
1kiki, the way you write, you have no genuine interest in what is happening.
Perhaps you need to re-read what I posted? I don't pay attention to his bluster or his tweets. I don't pay attention to his WORDS.

What he DOES is consequential.

The rest of your post is pointless since it doesn't address anything I am, think, say, or do.


And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, you react to Trump's stupidities as if you were one of Pavlov's dogs salivating at a bell. Talk about mindless.
1kiki, the way you write, you have no genuine interest in what is happening. It's all games and posturing with you. Are you scoring points somewhere for some real, yet hidden, purpose?

The government estimated Trump's census question would decrease Hispanic participation by more than five percent, leading to fewer government resources and less congressional representation in areas with large Latino populations — most of which just happen to be in predominantly Democratic states and districts.

Last week, the Supreme Court called Trump’s bluff. The court held that a citizenship question could, in theory, be valid, legal, and constitutional. However, Chief Justice Roberts continued, the government had lied, over and over again, about the real reason -- to decrease the count -- for adding the question to the census. That violated the law.

Trump's problem is that the government has said throughout this litigation that it needed to start printing the census forms by July 1. Today is July 5th. So, even if Trump's government could come up with a valid, truthful reason for adding the question, time is up. But trying anyway will prolong the political battle, allowing Trump to score more points with his base. 1kiki, are you scoring points, too? Who is your base? What is your purpose here? Be truthful, unlike Trump's people when they went to the Supreme Court. Or lie cleverly. I won't be able to tell if you are lying because I won't have access to your bosses' documents like New York state got against Trump's government. Certain hard drives left behind by a dead man were located that gave the real story. Department of Commerce v. New York was a very tangled case, full of misleading arguments and outright lies by the GOP.

www.scotusblog.com/2019/06/opinion-analysis-court-orders-do-over-on-ci
tizenship-question-in-census-case/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, July 8, 2019 6:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-07/trumps-citizenship-question-
isnt-controversial-obama-deleting-it-shouldve-been

President Trump’s citizenship question on the upcoming U.S. census is, contrary to popular opinion, the norm for the decennial survey.

Barack Obama was the first President to exclude a question on citizenship in the U.S. Census.

posted for future look-up


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Monday, July 8, 2019 7:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Barack Obama was the first President to exclude a question on citizenship in the U.S. Census.


Because, of course he was.


Anybody arguing that this should be kept off of the census is no different than Evangelicals on the Right demanding that "Under God" stay in the Pledge of Allegiance when it never originally was in there.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, July 8, 2019 7:32 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Anybody arguing that this should be kept off of the census is no different than Evangelicals on the Right demanding that "Under God" stay in the Pledge of Allegiance when it never originally was in there.
The "anybody" you complain about is the Supreme Court.

Last Friday, Trump suggested that he might sign an executive order putting a citizenship question on the 2020 census. I hope he does it.

Here’s why. It would be in court instantly along with a request for emergency appeal directly to the Supreme Court, which would be granted. The five justices who voted against the citizenship question originally would also vote to overturn the executive order and that would be the end of things.

But it would also give us a chance to learn something about the other four justices. Even though they originally voted to allow the citizenship question, they should agree that the Court ruled against it and the president is bound by its ruling. Even in what the justices might consider a righteous cause, presidents aren’t allowed to flout a Supreme Court ruling. That should produce a quick, unanimous opinion.

If it doesn’t, it will tell us something important about just how hackish the four conservatives are.

www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/18pdf/18-966_bq7c.pdf

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, July 8, 2019 8:30 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Nothing Trump says, or tweets, is worth paying attention to.
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Everything else is part of a negotiation strategy of an endless blizzard of bluster.
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, you react to Trump's stupidities as if you were one of Pavlov's dogs salivating at a bell. Talk about mindless.
Quote:
Originally posted by SECOND:
1kiki, the way you write, you have no genuine interest in what is happening.
Perhaps you need to re-read what I posted? I don't pay attention to his bluster or his tweets. I don't pay attention to his WORDS.

What he DOES is consequential.

The rest of your post is pointless since it doesn't address anything I am, think, say, or do.


And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac
I thought you had vowed to stop feeding the Troll.

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Monday, July 8, 2019 9:22 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


The White House insisted allegations that it wanted to add a citizenship question to the survey for political reasons were conspiracy theories, right up until the moment the president confirmed them.

“There is no smoking gun here; only smoke and mirrors,” the Department of Justice insisted when liberal groups uncovered evidence.

The Justice Department characterized the new evidence as resembling “the product of a conspiracy theorist.”

The respondents’ “conspiracy theory” was “implausible on its face,” Solicitor General Noel Francisco echoed in a brief written for the Supreme Court in June.

Then Donald Trump himself confirmed that the “conspiracy theory” put forth by groups challenging the legality of the citizenship question was true.

This is a constant risk for Trumpists — that they will commit to vigorous defenses of falsehoods, only to be made fools when the president abandons the deception or changes his mind, when it becomes politically convenient.

For those keeping score at home, The Washington Post has documented at least 10 instances of the Trump administration contradicting its own statements on the citizenship question.

1) When the Trump administration told Congress and the public that the citizenship question on the census was needed to enforce the Voting Rights Act, that was a lie.

2) When the Trump administration denied that its intent was to use the data to draw congressional districts that would enhance white voting power and therefore grant Republicans an advantage, that was false.

3) When Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told Congress the data would not be used for immigration enforcement, that was untrue.

4) Trump's Solicitor General Noel Francisco told the Court that the census questionnaire had to be finalized by June; the Department of Justice has now reversed that position.

More at www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/08/trump-administration-has-ch
anged-its-story-census-citizenship-question-least-times-four-months/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, July 8, 2019 10:00 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Who jumps like a trained monkey at every Trump tweet?

SECOND.




And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Monday, July 8, 2019 11:20 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


The entire team of lawyers defending the government’s position in ongoing litigation will be replaced.

The sudden change in lawyers suggests there is some internal recognition that the government’s latest census stance has become untenable.

The Justice Department declared that Attorney General William Barr “is confident that the new team will carry on in the same exemplary fashion as the previous team as the cases progress.”

According to multiple former DOJ officials, the move would have only come if the attorneys who had been working on the case had profound reservations about the task ahead and asked to be removed.

“It’s an extremely unusual thing for an entire office to take itself off of a case in the middle of a case,” one former DOJ attorney said. “That the entire office is being substituted out really indicates something strange.”

Another former DOJ official said that the unusual move was likely because the original legal team was refusing to reverse course. “There is no reason they would be taken off that case unless they saw what was coming down the road and said, ‘I won’t sign my name to that.’ ” But 1kiki would sign.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/trump-census-william-barr-
john-roberts-lawyer-change.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, July 9, 2019 3:20 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.







And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Tuesday, July 9, 2019 7:26 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


During the Cuban Missile Crisis, President Kennedy told General Curtis LeMay to either stop talking about bombing Cuba or else LeMay should leave the room. LeMay quieted himself and he stayed seated. When a President's advisor won't either shut up or talk sense, disaster will follow, like a nuclear war. Even worse is when it is the President, rather than an advisor, who cannot shut up or talk sense. Trump can't shut up about the Census. Chief Justice Roberts has politely told Trump to leave the room. But Trump insists on turning a serious and dignified case about the Census into a small, silly tragicomedy where even the government's lawyers resign from the case that their President can't stop bitching and moaning about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay#Cuban_Missile_Crisis

The Justice Dept. will have to find some new lawyers that are dumb enough to keep fighting a Supreme Court decision because that is what Trump wants.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/trump-roberts-supreme-cour
t-citizenship-question-census.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, July 9, 2019 7:47 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


It gets to the point where if they spent half of that energy using the tax system and laws we have in place to ensure that nobody without a social security number or temporary work visa could make any money as they are on the census, we might actually not have millions of people invading our country right now.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, July 9, 2019 8:27 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
It gets to the point where if they spent half of that energy using the tax system and laws we have in place to ensure that nobody without a social security number or temporary work visa could make any money as they are on the census, we might actually not have millions of people invading our country right now.

Do Right, Be Right. :)
When Trump finally starts deporting people by the thousands every weekday, then millions will stop invading. Do you remember this story? Immigration agents had been planning to sweep into several immigrant communities in 10 major cities — including Miami, Los Angeles, Baltimore and Chicago — beginning on Sunday. Officials said on Friday that they had targeted about 2,000 families in a show of force intended to demonstrate their strict enforcement of immigration laws. Children of immigrants — some of whom were born in the United States — had faced the prospect of being forcibly separated from their undocumented parents.

But Trump, the President himself, cancelled. He was only going after 2,000 out of 11,000,000, but he decided it was too many. That is why people are invading the country right now. When Trump finally starts deporting people by the thousands every weekday, then millions will stop invading. Trump already has all the laws he needs to deport 11,000,000 illegals and he does not need to ask the illegal if they are illegal on the Census in 2020. Trump can start deporting them by millions in 2019. But he keeps delaying.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, July 10, 2019 8:02 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Judge Rejects Justice Dept. Request to Change Lawyers on Census Case

The Justice Department owes the public and the courts an explanation for its unprecedented substitution of the entire legal team that has been working on this case. The Trump administration is acting like it has something to hide.

On Sunday, the Justice Department said it was replacing the legal team defending the citizenship question. It offered no explanation for the change, which came in the middle of a prolonged clash over whether the administration’s arguments for adding the question could be believed.

But on Tuesday, as a new team of lawyers began to notify the court of its appearance in the case, Judge Furman barred the old lawyers from leaving until they met a legal requirement to satisfactorily explain their departure and show that it would not impede the case. He excepted only two lawyers on the team who had already left the department’s civil division, which was overseeing the lawsuit.

“Defendants provide no reasons, let alone ‘satisfactory reasons,’ for the substitution of counsel,” he wrote, adding that their written assurance that the switch would not disrupt the case “is not good enough.”

If the department wishes to continue with the switch of legal teams, the judge wrote, the lawyers must provide sworn affidavits explaining their departures and remain under the court’s jurisdiction should they be required to return.

More at www.foxnews.com/politics/new-york-judge-denies-doj-request-to-change-l
awyers-in-census-citizenship-question-case

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, July 10, 2019 8:31 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
But Trump, the President himself, cancelled. He was only going after 2,000 out of 11,000,000, but he decided it was too many. That is why people are invading the country right now. When Trump finally starts deporting people by the thousands every weekday, then millions will stop invading. Trump already has all the laws he needs to deport 11,000,000 illegals and he does not need to ask the illegal if they are illegal on the Census in 2020. Trump can start deporting them by millions in 2019. But he keeps delaying.


Remember this gem? "Nobody Knew Health Care Was So Complicated"



Trump reminds me of someone on this board who thinks/pretends they're the only one to ever think about something and that only they have the answers. Like no one tried to fix health care until Trump sat down to look at it kind of ignorant. And then he was schooled by Reality. He found out lots of people have tried and have considered all the angles (dozens more than he could even dream of) and they ultimately failed BECAUSE (even he finally realized), it was really, really hard! Especially if you have to do more than just type. And then he makes sh*t up, tries a quick patch and moves on.

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Wednesday, July 10, 2019 1:06 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:

Trump reminds me of someone on this board who thinks/pretends they're the only one to ever think about something and that only they have the answers. Like no one tried to fix health care until Trump sat down to look at it kind of ignorant. And then he was schooled by Reality. He found out lots of people have tried and have considered all the angles (dozens more than he could even dream of) and they ultimately failed BECAUSE (even he finally realized), it was really, really hard! Especially if you have to do more than just type. And then he makes sh*t up, tries a quick patch and moves on.
All of Trump's big plans don't go anywhere because he won't pay for them. He and the GOP Senators have some vague idea that problems don't need to have carefully planned solutions with included costs.

If Trump and the GOP were really serious about the 11,000,000 illegal aliens living inside the USA, the GOP would budget $10,000 per alien, or $20,000, for their removal. But when they do the math and see it is $110 to $220 billion, which is a small fraction of what these jackasses spend every year on their worthless Army that can't win a war, the GOP just doesn't want to pay.

The GOP doesn't have to remove all aliens in one year and pay the whole $220 billion in 2020. They could budget over 5 or 10 years, but the GOP just won't pay for it. They would much rather bitch about it and, if my experience in Texas is true for the other 49 states, the wealthiest Trump voters I know want to surreptitiously keep those 11,000,000 aliens around because they are low wage labor for the richest businesses. The Citizenship question is a very, very cheap method for the GOP to pretend they are doing something about illegal aliens.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, July 10, 2019 4:51 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
If Trump and the GOP were really serious about the 11,000,000 illegal aliens living inside the USA, the GOP would budget $10,000 per alien, or $20,000, for their removal. But when they do the math and see it is $110 to $220 billion, which is a small fraction of what these jackasses spend every year on their worthless Army that can't win a war, the GOP just doesn't want to pay.

The GOP doesn't have to remove all aliens in one year and pay the whole $220 billion in 2020. They could budget over 5 or 10 years, but the GOP just won't pay for it. They would much rather bitch about it and, if my experience in Texas is true for the other 49 states, the wealthiest Trump voters I know want to surreptitiously keep those 11,000,000 aliens around because they are low wage labor for the richest businesses. The Citizenship question is a very, very cheap method for the GOP to pretend they are doing something about illegal aliens.


As well as using it to keep stoking deep seated hatred from their base for those filthy brown folk from south of the border, and using it like jet fuel for their political gains. *cough*
They really are nothing more than a prop at this point.

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Thursday, July 11, 2019 7:49 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


A second judge has denied a request from the Justice Department to switch up the legal team fighting to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census.

The latest order came Wednesday in Maryland.

In a separate case, a federal judge in New York said Tuesday the Justice Department couldn't change lawyers so late in the dispute without giving satisfactory reasons.

In a third case, a judge in San Francisco hasn't yet agreed to allow the Justice Department to replace its legal team.

www.cnbc.com/2019/07/10/second-judge-blocks-doj-request-to-change-lawy
ers-in-census-case.html

The real reason for the lawyer switch? Trump wants it. But that is not a reason Attorney General Barr wants known, since the previous lawyers resigned en masse because Trump had lied to those lawyers about the facts in the case. The lawyers lost the case only because those lies were revealed to the Supreme Court during 90 minutes of argument before the Justices. It was very traumatic for Trump's lawyers to have their case destroyed, all because of Trump and his big mouth. In real life, lawyers quit clients after they are justly convicted/sentenced and, also, guilty as hell, since most lawyers don't want the stain rubbing off on their own reputations by appealing a just sentence. But that's not something Trump would understand.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, July 12, 2019 6:15 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Trump caves in. Citizenship Question starting at 1 minute.


Trump’s census citizenship question fiasco, explained
www.vox.com/2019/7/11/20689015/census-citizenship-question-trump-execu
tive-order

Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts has no problem with the question itself — but blocked it because Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross gave a bogus reason.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, July 12, 2019 7:44 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Trump On the Census Citizenship Question:

Can you believe… “Are you a citizen of the United States of America?”

“Sir you can’t ask that question.”

“Why?”

“Because a court said you can’t.”

We have three very unfriendly courts. They fight us all the way. The judges don’t like us too much, I guess. But think of that, Herman, think of that question. “Are you a citizen?” We spend — this is another thing that’s so crazy — $20 billion on a census, $20 billion. They spend $20 billion! I said, “Twenty billion WHAT?” Twenty billion dollars. On a census. They go through houses. They go up. They ring doorbells. They talk to people. How many toilets do they have? How many desks do they have? How many beds? What’s their roof made of? The only thing we can’t ask is, are you a citizen of the United States? Isn’t it the craziest thing? Twenty billion. Pretty amazing.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/trump-social-media-summit.
html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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