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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
I assume your joking HK.

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Simple common sense says that if your not a terrorist, it might be very bad for your continued good health to act exactly as a terrorist would during a time of terrorist homicide bombings in you immediate area.

If the guy is dead, it's his own doing. He was apparently a fool. I feel badly for the officers involved in his death, they must feel awful even if it was justified. And for his family of course.

Brutal but true. We are all responsible for our own actions. Putting a PC spin on this to hang it on the law inforcement officers in London is just a bunch of Crap.


Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And don't ever do anything the slightest bit illegal, so you never have any reason to run from the cops, because all crimes have become punishable by death if you don't submit quietly.

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Yep.

Welcome to the human race Chrisisall

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original post by BarnStormer:
I assume your joking HK. Simple common sense says that if your not a terrorist, it might be very bad for your continued good health to act exactly as a terrorist would during a time of terrorist homicide bombings in you immediate area.

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original post by BarnStormer:
If the guy is dead, it's his own doing. He was apparently a fool. I feel badly for the officers involved in his death, they must feel awful even if it was justified. And for his family of course.

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Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said he understood that the 27-year-old was in the country legally, following speculation that he may have fled because his visa had expired.

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Originally posted by citizen:
What if he ran because he had stolen goods, or was a shop lifter? Such a person would likely run from the police, does their crime merit a death sentence?

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original post by chrisisall:
I meant in a cynical way thet you should sometimes expect things to go completely rotten, and worry less about right and wrong, and more about survival.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I'd argue that when everything goes to hell within a civilized society is when we have to keep a stronger eye on our morality.

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original post by chrisisall:
At this particular moment, yes. The same way jumping off a cliff with a sheer 500 foot drop would. It's not about what we want, it's about what can and will happen. It's self defence time. Just know the score, and do what's necessary to protect your life, if that means postphoning your criminal activities for a while, so be it.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by citizen:
I'd argue that when everything goes to hell within a civilized society is when we have to keep a stronger eye on our morality.

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Yeah, definitly, I'm just sayin' that first you have to consider staying alive, in order to do anything else. Like they tell you on a plane, put your mask on first, you can't help anyone else if you're passed out.

Survival is job 1 Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
Thank you most kindly. It is often extremely difficult to keep one's temper in light of so much confused thinking by those who believe everything they're told by well-dressed TV newspeople, or by some bum in a position of power. But we try.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I don't know, theres more to life than simple survival.

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
Did you hear that, Citizen? You better stop watching those news channels with their “well-dressed TV newspeople.” Ruxton might get mad.

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
It is unfortunate that he was killed, and the police certainly share some responsibility. But if your going to tell me that this guy might have been shoplifting or some other illegal activity and then decided to run from the police to imply that he’s somehow innocent, spare me your moral relativism. He shouldn’t have been shoplifting (if that what he was doing; I’ve seen no evidence that he had or was committing any crime) and he shouldn’t have run from the police. The police were not after him to kill him. If he had not run, they would have stopped him, questioned him and probably let him go, but he would probably be alive right now, if he had not run.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Part of the responsibility rests with the victim. Running from the police is a dangerous activity regardless of the threat of terrorism. I seriously doubt this is the first guy who has ever been killed by the police because he ran. Running from the police is generally a stupid thing to do.

Given the information that I’ve heard so far (exiting a suspected terrorist location, wearing a heavy coat, running from the police towards the subway) I might have shot the guy too. I certainly would have shot the guy before I would have allowed him to blow up the train with me and who knows how many innocent people, if that’s what I believed he was going to do.

It is unfortunate that he was killed, and the police certainly share some responsibility. But if your going to tell me that this guy might have been shoplifting or some other illegal activity and then decided to run from the police to imply that he’s somehow innocent, spare me your moral relativism. He shouldn’t have been shoplifting (if that what he was doing; I’ve seen no evidence that he had or was committing any crime) and he shouldn’t have run from the police. The police were not after him to kill him. If he had not run, they would have stopped him, questioned him and probably let him go, but he would probably be alive right now, if he had not run.

It’s tragic, but this guy may not be without a good deal of responsibility in his own death.

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original post by HKCavalier:
Maybe, for their safety, we should put them all in camps for a few years where they won't get into trouble and they won't be mistaken for terrorists.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I'm guessing you're white, Finn. Saves you from having to take the kind of responsibility a lot of people will be having to take for the next while. Maybe, for their safety, we should put them all in camps for a few years where they won't get into trouble and they won't be mistaken for terrorists. Just to be safe.

If things do get worse, where will you draw the line? These lines are getting easier and easier to cross, these days. Where does it end?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by citizen:
I don't know, theres more to life than simple survival.

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Okay, we're talkin' about two different things, now.
I'm sayin' that you need to do what you have to, to survive in a bad situation - THEN you address how to solve the problem.
All the perceptions of right and wrong, and all the ideas on how to fix the problem of living in fear of terrorists and their effect on the landscape go out the window if you act like you should be able to behave like others are not extremely able and/or likely to shoot you should your behaviour be misconstrued as that of a potential target.
Live first (the decisions that can be made in seconds).
Live well second (the decisions that you can take time with).

Whew...Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
brings to mind this question: Do the people of Britain know about shoot-to-kill orders? Was this common knowledge prior to this shooting? Even if so, can foreign citizens living in London be expected to know this?

My understanding is, like yours, that the "police" were in fact not in uniform, so how can this guy be expected to stop, especially when he was recently mugged, when someone hollers at him.

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original post by Ruxton:
My understanding is, like yours, that the "police" were in fact not in uniform, so how can this guy be expected to stop, especially when he was recently mugged, when someone hollers at him. In fact, at least one witness was emphatic that the police did not identify themselves prior to the murder.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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original post by HKCavalier:
Maybe, for their safety, we should put them all in camps for a few years where they won't get into trouble and they won't be mistaken for terrorists.

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I happen to agree, the Nazi movement in Germany showed how quickly and easily these things can get out of control.

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original post by SimonWho:
Incidentally, the photos of the victim make him appear slightly dark skinned, possibly just a white guy with a suntan. I don't see any malicious racism behind the shooting.

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original post by SimonWho:
I'm afraid if you're going to look for comparisons in the 40's, you don't have to look any further than America and it's own policy of internment.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
(Edited for clarity and to remove a level of sarcasm I'm a little embarrassed by. A little smart-ass goes a long way.)

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A group of men start toward you, you're not necessarily going to check their i.d. badges up close, you get the feeling that they mean you harm

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Did he really have a chance?

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
I assume your joking HK.

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'Fraid not, BS. What's funny about it? So to your mind, running from the cops makes you a suspected terrorist. Such a "fool" deserves death. God forbid you should ever find yourself afraid of a cop, BarnStormer.

Your position doesn't make any sense, least of all common. On the one hand we are "all responsible for our own actions," but that somehow doesn't include the police. They are exempt in your view from agency. "If the guy is dead, it's his own doing." WTF? First off, what kind of cowardly phrasology is that? If? Seven bullets in the head says he's dead. Killed by a policeman. Wrongfully. I'm not hanging anything on the officers. "PC spin?" The man's only crimes were his location, the color of his skin and his fear of the police, on the strength of which, he was gunned down. Where's the spin? It's what I would call "brutal but true." To my mind, it takes a whole lot of spin to blame an innocent man shot seven times in the back of the head for his own death!

And for the sake of clarity, I am not blaming the police, they are not to blame, they were simply following procedure to the best of their ability. Their ability fell below the required mark. I'm not surprised. I feel terrible for them. As I've said before, what we're requiring of them is beyond human capacity to execute.

"Guns don't kill people, people--who aren't terrorists and yet run from the cops are too stupid to live and--kill themselves."

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Simple common sense says that if your not a terrorist, it might be very bad for your continued good health to act exactly as a terrorist would during a time of terrorist homicide bombings in you immediate area.

If the guy is dead, it's his own doing. He was apparently a fool. I feel badly for the officers involved in his death, they must feel awful even if it was justified. And for his family of course.

Brutal but true. We are all responsible for our own actions. Putting a PC spin on this to hang it on the law inforcement officers in London is just a bunch of Crap.


Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
To me it makes all the sense in the world. It all comes down to taking personal responsibility for your actions. If your actions are incorrect, you have to pay the consequences.

The police were acting to stop another terrorist bombing. If someone then acts like a terrorist in the act of setting off another bomb, he takes his own life in his own hands. It's as simple as that. The responsibility rests squarely on his own shoulders. To try and place the responsibility on someone elses shoulders is just being an apologist for the idiot.

Think of the analogy:
If your walking thru the woods and you come across a Bear and her two cubs, and you then start to run towards the two cubs in a threatening manner, it's going to be your own fault when Mama Bear procedes to rip you to shreds.

To think otherwise is to be an apologist for the idiots of the world.

No civilized person likes to see this sort of thing happen. It is tragic. Hopefully others will get the messege that this is serious business.

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original post by BarnStormer:
The responsibility rests squarely on his own shoulders. To try and place the responsibility on someone elses shoulders is just being an apologist for the idiot.

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
Perhaps that which drives people to become officers of the law has nothing to do with trying to become a fine marksman, nor with having to think oneself out of a shooting situation.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

But the founding fathers of these United States bucked that trend. Think of that! Just as they seized power, they sat down and wrote laws to limit that power. Is that a miracle or what?

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E-Plebnista Chrisisall

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