The culpability at the state and federal levels in the New Orleans assistance debacle (cont.) by chrisisall

Here's another:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/opinion/05krugman.html?incamp=articl
e_popular

Like embers said, contact senators and congressmen.
Donate what you're able.

Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 1:21 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) gave the following speech today on the House floor during a special session to provide relief money for the victims of Hurricane Katrina:

“This amount of money is only a fraction of what is needed and everyone here knows it. Let it go forward quickly with heart-felt thanks to those who are helping to save lives with necessary food, water, shelter, medical care and security. Congress must also demand accountability with the appropriations. Because until there are basic changes in the direction of this government, this tragedy will multiply to apocalyptic proportions.

“The Administration yesterday said that no one anticipated the breach of the levees. Did the Administration not see or care about the 2001 FEMA warning about the risk of a devastating hurricane hitting the people of New Orleans? Did it not know or care that civil and army engineers were warning for years about the consequences of failure to strengthen the flood control system? Was it aware or did it care that the very same Administration which decries the plight of the people today, cut from the budget tens of millions needed for Gulf-area flood control projects?

“Countless lives have been lost throughout the South with a cost of hundreds of billions in ruined homes, businesses, and the destruction of an entire physical and social infrastructure.

video clip - Broussard, says he still doesn't have the resources needed to save the lives
www.ameratsu.com/media/vid/nbc/nbc_mtp_aaron_broussard_jefferson_parri
sh_050904a.wmv
Aaron Broussard tells a heart wrenching story

http://www.justgiving.com/pfp/NEBHurricaneRelief
Relief Fund

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Monday, September 5, 2005 2:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Sadly, Kucinich twists and distorts what the President said. But it doesn't matter. This problem has been overlooked by the local officials for 30+ years, and everyone knows it. $$ sent to Louisiana and N.O. to keep up and strengthen the levee system has been pissed away through graft, corruption and colossal mismanagement.

The very things which allowed this tragedy to occur are being repeated by those MOST ( but not totally ) responsible for such poor planning. The finger pointing at a time when serious work needs to be done....NOW. This petty sqwabbling is exactly what is not needed, but it seems that's what the Democrats/Left wingers are best at doing.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, September 5, 2005 2:50 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

FEMA says thew victims are responsible, The old democrat fart Bobby said it was the fault of Bush, Chertoff continued to lie to Tim Russert, ORielly conservative GOP blames it on Al-Gore, other crackpot Republicans are trying to blame Clinton

Meanhwile children have been without food, some drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage, old people are dying in the street while a kid had to go steal a bus and drive 100 victims to Texas, many Refugees are running and fleeing to Texas. Craig Vanderwagen, rear admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service, said one morgue alone, at a St. Gabriel prison, expected 1,000 to 2,000 bodies.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This petty sqwabbling is exactly what is not needed, but it seems that's what the Democrats/Left wingers are best at doing.

Seems to me you're pointing your finger right now. But that's okay, squabbling and finger pointing can be done simultaniously with the real work of assistance.

The number of ads I've seen from families across the country willing to take in victims of the disaster for free is amazing. Whatever my political views, there are a lot of big-hearted folks in this country...

Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 3:09 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

From the "Violence and Looting..." thread

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
They should have made mandatory evacuation actually possible by commandeering buses, trains and planes and doing a house to house evacuation.

So the government should be able to violate peoples' rights, such as their right of privacy and freedom from search, seizure, and arrest without a warrant, in response to what it considers a threat to their safety? That the government should be able to commandeer private property without due process because they think there's an emergency? Can we drop back to the liberalism of the Patriot Act from this?

Besides, imagine the resources needed to do a "house to house" search and evacuation of an area of several thousand square miles consisting of everything from bayou to apartment blocks, with a population of several million.

Response could always be better, but what you're asking above would not be possible no matter who was in charge, or what plans had been made.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 5, 2005 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

That the government should be able to commandeer private property without due process because they think there's an emergency?
Besides, imagine the resources needed to do a "house to house" search and evacuation of an area of several thousand square miles consisting of everything from bayou to apartment blocks, with a population of several million.

House to house would have been impossible, but driving down streets w/announcements would have done something.
And commandeering busses and planes, etc. isn't exactly taking 'private' property, it's more like 'corporate' property, isn't it? There must be a legal loophole for that under some law, I mean they can take your home under Eminent Domain, right?

Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 3:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This petty sqwabbling is exactly what is not needed, but it seems that's what the Democrats/Left wingers are best at doing.
Seems to me you're pointing your finger right now. But that's okay, squabbling and finger pointing can be done simultaniously with the real work of assistance.

The number of ads I've seen from families across the country willing to take in victims of the disaster for free is amazing. Whatever my political views, there are a lot of big-hearted folks in this country...

Chrisisall

No Chris, I'm RESPONDING to the idiotic comments from the likes of N.O.'s Mayor to RFK Jr. to Jessie Jackson. All ignoring the facts, all politicizing the event and all trying to blame Bush.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, September 5, 2005 4:10 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

THE SPIN CYCLE

The Federal government spent plenty to protect the city:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657
367 Construction (levees and channels) generally has been on the decline for several years and focus has been on other projects in the Corps.
(Thanks SignyM for the source.)
It was everybody, not just Bush:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html
In 2002 the corps' chief resigned, reportedly under threat of being fired, after he criticized the administration's proposed cuts in the corps' budget, including flood-control spending. After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees.

They didn't know the city could flood from a hurricane:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/09/01/BL2005090
100915.html
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees," Bush said. And the corollary (Chertoff DHS) It was two disasters, completely unforeseen, who would' a thunk? http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/katrina.doomsday/ "Some 25 feet of standing water was expected in many parts of the city -- almost twice the height of the average home -- and computer models suggest that more than 80 percent of buildings would be badly damaged or destroyed." That farce has been well covered (and MacBaker, this is for you and your idiotic mantra).

Blanco and Nagin did too little, too late:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=FT&
Date=20050905&ID=5086147
In the case of Katrina, Louisiana had the foresight to ask the president for a disaster declaration even before the hurricane hit ground. This was signed on August 27, at which time federal resources should have been deployed en masse. (And the booby prize again goes to MacBaker for making up 'facts'.)
"Federal resources were pre-deployed but not nearly enough," says Jane Bullock, former chief of staff of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (Fema) in the 1990s. She believes the poor response was primarily due to reorganisation of the disaster response infrastructure under the administration of President George W. Bush.
In case you doubt that it happened (it's a small news-source) MIAMI, Aug. 27 (UPI) President Bush late Saturday declared a state of emergency in Louisiana. The governors of Louisiana and Mississippi declared emergencies Friday, and mandatory evacuation orders were in effect for some of Louisiana's low-lying areas, CNN reported.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2005/2005-08-29-02.asp
Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Interstate 10, which was converted Saturday so that all lanes headed one-way out of town, was gridlocked.
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2005/2005-08-29-02.asp
New Orleans Evacuates Before the Menace of Hurricane Katrina
MIAMI, Florida, August 29, 2005 (ENS) - New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a State of Emergency on Friday and issued a mandatory evacuation order to all residents of the greater New Orleans metropolitan area. He said police and firefighters would fan out throughout the city telling residents to get out and that police would have the authority to commandeer any vehicle or building that could be used for evacuation or shelter. Hotels were exempted from the evacuation order because airlines had already canceled all flights out. (The Mayor also acknowledged that many would be unable to leave and that the city did not have the manpower to go door to door and force an evacuation to shelter.)

Gobs and gobs of help Federal was pre-deployed:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2005/2005-08-29-02.asp
At least 1,500 (!) National Guard troops are available, to deploy and assist with cleanup efforts after the storm moves through the area.

It's just cheap political shots, don't focus on Bush, and the "President" really cares:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050831-3.html
August 31, 2005 5:11 P.M. EDT "As we flew here today, I also asked the pilot to fly over the Gulf Coast region so I could see firsthand the scope and magnitude of the devastation." (Don't go out of your way or nuthin' ...)

It was under city and state jurisdiction, alternatively, the federal government is not the lead agency:
http://www.senate.gov/~y2k/hearings/991007/natl_guard.htm (This is for you Finn) If there is a federal declaration request from the Governor to the President, FEMA assists in the coordination. FEMA becomes the national contact upon declaration of a national disaster, and we coordinate with FEMA on site as needed.
http://www.msms.org/peml/bdfs/ramifications4.html Once a Presidential Disaster Declaration has been made, the Federal Emergency Management Agency assumes the role of coordinating federal agency support to meet state requests for assistance.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html August 27, 2005 The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe ... Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency.

***************************************

CLEARLY the federal government was the agency on the hook - and it failed. Completely. And up to 60,000 people may have died.

To all you Bush worshippers - truth, shame, common human decency have no meaning for you. You're nothing but the stuff I scrape off my shoe.

**********

The there's the howlers sevenpercent posted - you know, the official version and the real version ... http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=12462, and these posted by SignyM "The American Red Cross says the reason it wasn't there in New Orleans helping people survive was because the Homeland Security Department had actually asked it not to come back into the city after the hurricane.", "WASHINGTON (AP) - Several states ready and willing to send National Guard troops to the rescue in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans didn't get the go-ahead until days after the storm struck ... the federal government could have activated, but did not, a major air support plan under a pre-existing contract with airlines. The program, called Civilian Reserve Air Fleet, lets the government quickly put private cargo and passenger planes into service."

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 4:17 PM

Link to a small, positive story (courtesy Gino)
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/112595446
5945_78?hub=topstories

Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 4:22 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
House to house would have been impossible, but driving down streets w/announcements would have done something.
And commandeering busses and planes, etc. isn't exactly taking 'private' property, it's more like 'corporate' property, isn't it? There must be a legal loophole for that under some law, I mean they can take your home under Eminent Domain, right?

Chrisisall

I'm not sure that loudspeaker announcements would have had much more effect than several days of TV, radio, and print media, and even so, would still have allowed folks to decide not to leave. Only going in and pulling out everyone, regardless of their desires, would ensure the kind of mandatory evacuation SignyM suggests.

To do Imminent Domain legally takes quite a while. And since this has turned into more a philosophical argument than anything else, I have to wonder at your willingness to accept, and even suggest, that the government apply a "legal loophole". Isn't that the kind of thing you generally oppose? Or are there good loopholes for things you like and bad loopholes for those you don't? Looks like the beginning of a slippery slope to me.

Again, I agree that response could have been better, but to ascribe all the problems and blame to an uncaring, racist government, or the bottled water trust, is politicizing things a bit too far. A disaster of massive proportion, the poor choice of a place to build, and normal human failure to think anything is going to happen to them also had a lot to do with it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 5, 2005 4:22 PM

Rue does the homework!
If paid by the hour for the research done here, Rue would have the money to run for office.

Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 4:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
A disaster of massive proportion, the poor choice of a place to build, and normal human failure to think anything is going to happen to them also had a lot to do with it.

I would agree w/you there.
[The program, called Civilian Reserve Air Fleet, lets the government quickly put private cargo and passenger planes into service."]
From above, I guess they can already do it, to some degree.

Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 4:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I have to wonder at your willingness to accept, and even suggest, that the government apply a "legal loophole". Isn't that the kind of thing you generally oppose? Or are there good loopholes for things you like and bad loopholes for those you don't?

They exist and are created and used all the time, why not use them for a good purpose if you can?

Chrisisall

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Monday, September 5, 2005 5:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

What a load.

Quote:
I'm not sure that loudspeaker announcements would have had much more effect than several days of TV, radio, and print media, and even so, would still have allowed folks to decide not to leave. Only going in and pulling out everyone, regardless of their desires, would ensure the kind of mandatory evacuation SignyM suggests.

The people who stayed behind were the abysmally poor and disabled. Most walked to the Superdome and other designated areas because they didn't have a car or money to leave, and had nowhere else to go. And they didn't have the suggested several days food and water b/c they didn't plain have it. (Hard to believe, but there are people who go without food in the house for days on end.) Others stayed at home because they were old and didn't have psychological resources or physical strength. Still others stayed because they would not leave a loved one who couldn't make the trip.

Quote:
To do Imminent Domain legally takes quite a while. And since this has turned into more a philosophical argument than anything else, I have to wonder at your willingness to accept, and even suggest, that the government apply a "legal loophole". Isn't that the kind of thing you generally oppose? Or are there good loopholes for things you like and bad loopholes for those you don't? Looks like the beginning of a slippery slope to me.

Maybe for you. Not for me. Thousands of people died. Now I 'get' that that has no impact for you, the same way it has no impact for Bush. So go ahead, continue your single-handed mental massage if it makes you feel good. You look real good doin' it.

Quote:
Again, I agree that response could have been better, but to ascribe all the problems and blame to an uncaring, racist government, or the bottled water trust, is politicizing things a bit too far.

And the resposible parties for a bad federal response would be - the Pope? Europe? Hollywood? A federal disaster area was declared August 27th and Katrina made landfall August 29 06:30. Help didn't BEGIN to arrive until 3 days later. Only you could not see the massive fuck-up that is the federal government.

Quote:
A disaster of massive proportion, the poor choice of a place to build, and normal human failure to think anything is going to happen to them also had a lot to do with it.

Yeah, that's right. Nobody predicted. Nobody complained when Bush cut funds year after year. The Netherlands seems to be coping well despite their poor 'choice' of location. And why is that? Could it be b/c they have the political will to DO something about the risk? And Bush? Well, he gets a pass from you.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 5:19 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Geezer,

Philisophically speaking, some day you are going to be old. Really old. And disabled and dependent on the good will of others to feed you and take you to the bathroom rather than make you crap a diaper and then sit in it for hours. To give you your medicine so your heart doesn't fail, and pay for your oxygen so you don't slowly suffocate and have your brain turn to mush a little more every day. And you won't be quite so slick anymore.

And as far as I can tell, you're way ahead of me on that score.

So I hope that you get to enjoy the kind of care Bush and his cronies have planned for you. And experience what it's like to one of powerless disposable people you look down on.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 6:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer - If you would actually read what I wrote I said- "To make mandatory evacuation POSSIBLE" No, you can't drag unwilling people out of their homes. But there were MANY people who had no means to get out of the city, and no place to go. Given a knock on the door, an available bus, a placxe to go and a chance to pick up some meds and personal items I'm sure a LOT more people would have left the city. As far as going house to house- it's not impossible if we decided to put effort and money into it. And that's really the point- somehow it just wasn't worth the effort. Not worth giving up the "meet-and-greet" for a couple of days. Not worth appointing someone to FEMA who might actually know what they are doing and who might not actually interfere with getting aid to the victims.

More than 9-11, more than the war in Iraq, I think that this event really is a moral watershed. There are no strings to pull to make people afraid like 9-11. Now we will see who cares and who doesn't. Geezer, I know you're all safe and happy where you are. But someday it might be you and your community needing help. Think deeply about why you are exercising sophistry to defend why thousands of people died unecessarily. You pretend to be reasonable, but you always wind up on the side that doesn't care. Take care for your soul, Geezer. You will lose something essential if you haven't lost it already.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 7:17 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
From the "Violence and Looting..." thread

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
They should have made mandatory evacuation actually possible by commandeering buses, trains and planes and doing a house to house evacuation.

So the government should be able to violate peoples' rights, such as their right of privacy and freedom from search, seizure, and arrest without a warrant, in response to what it considers a threat to their safety? That the government should be able to commandeer private property without due process because they think there's an emergency? Can we drop back to the liberalism of the Patriot Act from this?

Besides, imagine the resources needed to do a "house to house" search and evacuation of an area of several thousand square miles consisting of everything from bayou to apartment blocks, with a population of several million.

Response could always be better, but what you're asking above would not be possible no matter who was in charge, or what plans had been made.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Geezer, I think you misunderstood the post,
there are buses and transport (planes trains and ships) which can be used to transport people in need and would have done so if they had been asked.
They were not asked.
New Orleans has a huge population of poor with no cars, and most of them had no way to leave the city.
Hospitals and nursing homes were not evacuated...and it is their fault? Give me a break.

The local authorities let people down, FEMA has taken over authority which they failed to execute, and people were ignored to death for days before anyone listened....

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Monday, September 5, 2005 7:17 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

what's been happening people are dying, mother need help with their kids
Landrieu is upset
http://www.ericblumrich.com/wmf/This-Week-Landrieu-puch-Bush.wmv
Mary Landrieu

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Monday, September 5, 2005 10:23 PM

PERFESSERGEE

Folks, I’ve been awfully busy this week and haven’t been keeping up with the FFF.net threads (we just started our fall semester, and the first week is always a steep climb). I just caught up with this latest thought-child of Chrisisall, have read both threads in their entirety, and I’d like to offer a few (well, a bunch of) comments. First, a disclaimer – I’ve spent the last week with steam coming out of my ears about the response to Katrina. It seems to me that virtually everyone involved screwed up on this. From the President to some of the residents of NO itself. But, there are many, many degrees of culpability, and equally many degrees of duty to act in the public interest. And the higher the degree of duty, the higher the level of accountability to which they should be held, so when heads roll (and many should in this instance) those who hold the authority and the purse strings should be first to lay their heads on the block. But I’ll come back to that in my next post.

First, I want to indulge in a free speech moment. I’ve argued rather vehemently on these RWED boards that if you won’t defend the speech rights of those with whom you most strongly disagree, then you don’t really believe in free speech. Personally, I believe in free speech, so I’m going to do exactly that. In the first part of this pair of threads, a number of folk heaped very strong personal insult on some of those who have defended the administration’s role in this devastating fiasco, in particular Andrew Lynch and Finn macCumhal, and went so far as to demand that they shut up and leave these boards. Folks, this is wrong. Heaven only knows that I personally disagree with much of what they post, and I’ve personally gone so far as to strongly criticize both of their reasoning and their use of evidence. But their speech is just as legitimate as anyone’s who posts on these boards, including my own. That doesn’t mean that it’s “correct”, it means that they have every right to express it. Challenge their reasoning and the way they view evidence as strongly as you like, but not their right to speak. If they don't have the right, then neither do you.

(More on the Katrina specifics in my next post)

perfessergee

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 12:21 AM

PERFESSERGEE

A couple of additional thoughts on the Katrina debate:

Arguments that Katrina and its effects were not predictable (implying that nobody could really have prepared) are so ludicrously absurd as to invoke the Goebels principle of The Big Lie. Keep telling it long and loud enough and the gullible public will eventually believe it. Not only the effects, but the likelihood were supposedly planned for by FEMA in early 2001 – pre 9/11. But then FEMA was gutted; funny thing that, trashing a federal agency that had learned how to be successful. Makes you wonder who’s watch the “successful” and the “gutting (= revocation of funding and authority)” occurred under. Hint: they were different administrations based in different political parties. And then there’s this issue of satellite imagery. Any marginally-educated person with a computer could watch the approach of Katrina, pretty much in real time, and we are supposed to believe that the world’s only superpower, a technological behemoth, couldn’t figure out at least approximately where Katrina would land and what would happen. If you can believe this, then please contact me, because I have a marvelous investment opportunity in a bridge that will make you rich…… Well, perhaps somebody dropped the ball. We’re faced with a death toll that will likely at least match 9/11 (if we’re lucky enough that it doesn’t far exceed 9/11), and an economic hit that will almost certainly make 9/11 look like breaking into a piggy bank. Somebody clearly dropped the ball. The question, then, is “who was in a position of authority and responsibility”? Well, the Dept. of Homeland Security, a cabinet-level, Executive Branch agency, has asserted command. So where does the buck stop? Ye gods it’s embarrassing to see the administration of the most powerful government on the earth looking like such incompetents. But incompetence is as incompetence does………One can only hope that those who truly have the authority are held accountable. In the ballot box.

Arguments that NO and the state should have done more to shore up levees are completely misinformed, and only serve to divert attention and culpability from where it belongs. Navigable waterways are constitutionally the exclusive province of the federal government. US law places that authority in the hands of the Army Corps of Engineers, which has repeatedly requested funding to shore up the levee system, only to see those requests ignored or grossly underfunded. Not only did the state and local authorities not have the money, but even if they’d had all the riches of Croesus, they couldn’t have done diddly without federal permits. Federal law controls every aspect of the Mississippi River and its tributaries and wetlands. So who bears the responsibility? I hope it’s obvious.

I’ve got more, but it’s late……..

perfessergee

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 2:58 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Rue & SignyM

I do think that bottled water is easier to distribute than water from a few centralized taps.

I really do believe that it is logistically impossible to completely evacuate everyone from a very large area with a large population. Airports and roads have only so much capacity. People still have to get to loading points. Everything is not going to go perfectly. Mistakes will happen.

I don't doubt that response could have been better, but things could have always been done better, in hindsight.

These aren't political opinions, they're just my take on the practical matters that have occurred around the Katrina disaster.

And I'm quite happy with my soul, thanks very much. I do what I can for folks and encourage others to do so as well. When things are under control and folks aren't on rooftops any more I won't mind trying to figure out how to do a better job in future.

So hate me all you want, guys. You seem to get so much pleasure from it, and it doesn't cost me anything.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 5:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

The local authorities let people down, FEMA has taken over authority which they failed to execute, and people were ignored to death for days before anyone listened....

Seems that everyone, except for most of those doing the work, are pointing fingers at their traditional political enemies and saying "its your fault". I think they are all correct (except the crazy people who think we should have fixed the levy or lowered fossil fuel emmissions, yes we should have, but we didn't thats policy and democracy at work).

The Mayor failed to take the proper steps before the storm to get as many people out as possible. Thousands could have been bused out using city and school buses Saturday and Sunday, but the Mayor didn't heed calls to evacuate until a personal appeal was made by President Bush and then it was too late. He also made the bad (but understandable) choices on police deployment that allowed the violence to get out of control and disrupt the relief effort.

The Governor failed to control the situation after the fact. All of her preplanning seemed to be correct but in the hours following the storm she seemed completely unable to function or deal with the crisis. In her defense it was a really big crisis, but thats why they pay her the big bucks.

FEMA failed because despite all their planning they were unable to function in an effective manner for days after the storm. They had pre-positioned supplies and oodles of trained personel and equipment, but were so fouled up in mid and upper management that the job just wasn't being done.

Congress failed because they didn't get back into town till Friday. Bush could not use the military to take direct control of the situation because of the various laws against that sort of thing (Posse Comitatus) and what not. As soon as he got the authority he sent an Iraqi war veteran Lt. General down there who managed to kick ass on the relief effort and within 24 hours they had it in hand.

The News media failed because they treated this as a non-story till it was too late. While it got the attention it deserved on Cable, this event was bigger then 9/11 but lacked the continuous round the clock coverage of that event on regular network TV. Thus the magnatude of the disaster was slow to come to the awareness of the American people. There should have been live coverage from Monday afternoon until Friday evening's concert. But come on, they didn't even cancel the Saints game.

The levees failed because they were not big enough or strong enough for job they were asked to do. This falls on the Corps of Engineers, the City of New Orleans, the State of Louisiana, and the federal government, but its fifty years worth of decisions so that dilutes the overall blame to everyone who has ever visited Mardi Gras in the last fifty years.

Girls Gone Wild is to blame because it painted New Orleans as a paradise of parties and boobies instead of the City at risk it was, if something happens to Cancun then these people should be jailed.

President Clinton is to blame for not fixing the levies in 1993, 1995, 1996, 1999, or 2000 and for the failure to ratify the Kyoto Accords which failed 98-0 (the last time the Senate actually agreed on anything) because he negotiated such a lousy treaty.

President Bush is to blame for not fixing the levies in 2001 or 2002. I applaud him for deciding to fix them in 2006, leaves hope for the future. He is also to blame for the failure of FEMA noted above. His culpability here is limited to uninspired choices to head Homeland Security. That post needs a man (or woman) of action and vision (like Guiliani) not another bureaucrat.

The American people are to blame because this is a democracy and the buck really stops here.

So as you can see, it really comes down to the Commies. No Commies and the levees get raised in the '50s.

Wow, somehow I feel better.

H

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 5:58 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
President Bush is to blame for ... his ... uninspired choices to head Homeland Security. That post needs a man (or woman) of action and vision (like Guiliani) not another bureaucrat.

I vote for Guiliani as head of FEMA!
that is an inspired choice.
In the New Yorker they commented that on 9/11 it became clear that sometimes it is a good thing to have an anal control freak as a Mayor...
I'm sure he would show the same focused leadership on a national level....

let's write our Senators & Congressman! (broken record here)

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 6:54 AM

BEOWULF

Here's my question while the Big Wheel of Blame spins 'round and 'round: What are you going to do?

I mean, assuming you're not directly dealing with the Gulf Coast disaster right now there doesn't seem to be any reason to wait. NOW is the time to bring up disaster preparedness in you next local community organization or governmental body's meeting. NOW is the time to figure out just how you and your neighbors can get out if they have to. NOW is the time to figure out which of your neighbors might need your help if something happens.

We can point at a lot of people and agencies who should have done something different - something better. That's always going to be true. It will never change the fact that you are ultimately responsible for yourself. And if you can help someone else, you should.

Sure, call them to task for what they did wrong - but don't think that leaves you off the hook.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 6:58 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

The local authorities let people down, FEMA has taken over authority which they failed to execute, and people were ignored to death for days before anyone listened....

Seems that everyone, except for most of those doing the work, are pointing fingers at their traditional political enemies and saying "its your fault".

Sounds nice, but by that measure then SignyM, one of the most vocal left-leaning participants on this board, would be an anarchist. Given their performance thus far, I don't think throwing Bush, Chertoff and Brown in jail immediately would interfer much with the relief effort either.

Tradition's got very little to do with the enemies this administration has made. This presidency has brought out the rage in a whole lot of human beings who haven't made the repubican party their enemy until it was taken over by this crowd. Everyone here would agree that this administration and its policies are unprecidented in any number of ways.

On the other hand, Carl Rove and others have called for a "perminent majority." For this administration the death of liberalism, the end of the loyal opposition is the avowed goal. Cheney's been working on the project for 30 years. The rich white men, and their todies, who hold power have made the poor their unofficial but very traditional enemy since the invention of the wheel. Our president's guitar playing escapade last week is at least as old as Nero.

And Hero, this country is a democracy the whole year round, not just every 4 years in November. If you don't understand how holding elected officials to account for their actions and inactions[!] is essential to the democratic process, you should take an elementary civics course.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 8:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf:
Here's my question while the Big Wheel of Blame spins 'round and 'round: What are you going to do?.

1. Last week I organized an effort to send a truck load of relief supplies south, including the truck (which was a surplus industrial dump truck we got from a DUI), as I understand it, it is now the property of the City of Gulfport.

2. Saturday I organized and ran a large flea market at my church, we donated the proceeds to Methodist Katrinia relief, then took up an offering and doubled our intial donation.

3. Sunday I offered prayers in my church for the victims of Katrina, the nation, and the Chief Justice's family.

4. Today I am making an effort to get my City to convert an elementary school (shut down last spring because of school budget issues) into a long or mid-term shelter for I hope 200 displaced persons.

How bout you?

H

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 8:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Seems that everyone, except for most of those doing the work, are pointing fingers at their traditional political enemies and saying "its your fault".

Tradition's got very little to do with the enemies this administration has made. This presidency has brought out the rage in a whole lot of human beings who haven't made the repubican party their enemy until it was taken over by this crowd.

On the other hand, Carl Rove and others have called for a "perminent majority."

For this administration the death of liberalism, the end of the loyal opposition is the avowed goal.

Cheney's been working on the project for 30 years.

The rich white men, and their todies, who hold power have made the poor their unofficial but very traditional enemy since the invention of the wheel.

You completely disagree with me and yet went to great pains proving my point. Thanks. Maybe if your tirades had lashed out in another direction now, or in the past, you might make the argument work for you.

As it is I see liberals blaming conservatives, conservatives blaming liberals, Democrats blaming the President, the administration blaming Democrats, the poor blaming the rich, and the rich blaming the poor. Its the same as it was before the storm. Seems to me fault lies with all of us so there's no need to hold the political leaders accountable for our mutual failure of vision. We can hold them accountable for what they do now, not what we all failed to do then.

All we need now is some way for me to blame France. Hmm...they sold us Louisiana knowing that it might flood...damn them, damn them all.

H

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 10:14 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Seems to me fault lies with all of us so there's no need to hold the political leaders accountable for our mutual failure of vision.

WTF?

Hero, your position has become so morally elastic, so utterly opportunistic in its catch-phrases and innuendo that now you're talking just like an ultra-liberal. "It's all our fault! Society is to blame! Can't you see, he can't help it! We've all made Bush the way he is!" LOL ROTFL Classic!

Next thing you know, Rove will come out with an ad showing sad faced photos of Bush and his cabinet, with the voice over, "Judge not, lest ye be judged. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. C'mon, can't we all just...get along?" ROTFL It could happen!

Any administration in a democracy must be held accountable for its actions. This is not up for debate. You know this, you...you...you silly person! LOL The way you talk, we don't so much have a democracy, as a dictatorship with term limits. My traditional enemies, btw, are the traditional enemies of democracy--authoritarianism, bigotry and those who would silence the free press no matter who they are.

Hero, you may be full of beans on a regular basis but you always come thru with the funny. Chrisisall, watch your back!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 10:53 AM

SIMONWHO

Why are you getting angry at Hero? When someone on one extreme side of the argument says that it's definitely the people's fault because this is a democracy, you know exactly where the fault lies and he knows it too.

Well, enjoy your moron in chief for another three years, don't say we didn't warn you. You better hope that the death toll of Americans that can be laid at his door next year doesn't hit the thousands again. (Unless of course you're rich, in which case you're probably safe.)

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

FEMA failed because despite all their planning they were unable to function in an effective manner for days after the storm. They had pre-positioned supplies and oodles of trained personel and equipment, but were so fouled up in mid and upper management that the job just wasn't being done.

The guy running FEMA (a Bush drinkin' buddy-?) could have at LEAST arranged for horses to be used in evacuating people, I mean that was his area of expertise, right?
Oh, yeah, he was about to be fired from that job...
Guess he has no area of expertise...

Thanks for the appointment, George Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

1. Last week I organized an effort to send a truck load of relief supplies south, including the truck (which was a surplus industrial dump truck we got from a DUI), as I understand it, it is now the property of the City of Gulfport.

2. Saturday I organized and ran a large flea market at my church, we donated the proceeds to Methodist Katrinia relief, then took up an offering and doubled our intial donation.

The callousness and beligerancy of previous posts by yourself make it hard to know if you're being factual of fanciful here, I want to see receipts!!!

You really did that?

If true, you're the nicest jerk I ever met online!

Jerk in a good way Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:22 AM

RUXTON

Perfesser,

With all due respect, I think you do not understand the rage of those such as I who have watched this administration bungle everything it's touched since day one (and I am not a Democrat nor even slightly left-oriented). But this just takes the cake when posters here who have access to the Internet cannot see where the fault lies. Even MSM newscasters see it and rightly blame the administration. If you saw Keith Olbermenn's muted but extremely potent commentary last night you would begin to understand my complete lack of patience with assholes, and my willingness to tell them to go to hell because their blindness and incapability of intelligent thought, coupled with blind faith in a failed leader, does absolutely no good for anyone on this forum nor for the dying poor in New Orleans.

What's worse, I was not the least surprised by Bush's inaction. I expected it.

And many more than Bush are to blame: Chertoff. Cheney (where the HELL is he?). Local N.O. government, etc. We cannot give them (nor their toadies) any kind of a pass nor any break or it will just happen again.

Thank you for your time. Now, go teach.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Seems that everyone, except for most of those doing the work, are pointing fingers at their traditional political enemies and saying "its your fault".

Most I know wanted that android Bush de-comissioned w a y back, when he was only messing up wilderness preserves, and killing animals in the process.

He's progressed since then. He's had sucess, at various levels, in:
Killing parts of our Constitution,
Killing our soldiers,
Killing our economy,
And now, killing our people.

He's a good hunter, isn't he?

Just waiting for that 'Prez for Life' ammendment to come Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:39 AM

RUXTON

AURAPTOR, GEEZER, et al who still support Bush:

The chain of command was that the President had to okay the use of the military (see below). But without his getting involved, all responsibility lay with Homeland Security, led by PROVEN LIAR Chertoff. He failed utterly, and continues to do so even now. He needs to be tarred and feathered. FEMA is under DHS.

But the onus of responsibility lies with Bush, whether or not he or anyone else likes it. As the "acting" head of this country he ought to have taken charge the Sunday night before landfall and ordered every resource of the Army, Navy and Air Force into the region. The stupid man apparently doesn't understand his role in the world.

HE FAILED, and continues to do so today (along with his ignorant mother, BTW).

Hell, I NEVER watch TV news, yet I knew that Sunday night New Orleans was going to get it.

==================================================================
Also, those who can't find things out for themselves, but continue to support Bush need to read this, directed to:

HERO (who, on the previous thread, seems to think all the proffered foreign aid is being accepted:

Wake up, man! All it takes is people there and supplies. No goddamned US coordination is required. Ask anyone who has been there. All it takes is PEOPLE willing to lend a helping hand. Your piss-poor attitude favoring "authority" is identical with that of the government who bogged this effort down in the first place. Here's more from today:

[BBC]
"Germany is offering 2 million barrels of oil a day for 30 days. Venezuela is offering FREE fuel!! France [has given] more offers of aid than they could list; even Sri Lanka -- poor and devastated by last year's tsunami -- offered cash!! But [there has been] NO response from Washington."
===================
By Wayne Madsen
Wayne Madsen Report.com
9-6-5

"Team Bush" is still refusing international aid:

* Russian rescue crews on four cargo planes with helicopters on board sit idle at an airport near Moscow waiting for green light,

* Cuba has 1500 doctors with 26 tons of medical supplies and Bush is refusing them entry to U.S.,

* Venezuelan disaster rescue teams wait for a "go,"

* Dominican Republic crews with hurricane recovery experience wait and wait and wait.

It's the same scene at airports around the world.

Meanwhile, FEMA turned back 8 buses from Washington, DC that were to bring 400 evacuees to the DC Armory which has been stockpiled with just about every need. The Bush regime has finally reached the crescendo of evil.
===========================
Oh, and HERO, you are the only one mentioning politics in this matter. No one else has done so. And Bush did not need to WAIT for the authority to take action. HE HAD IT! As President, you get on TV and declare a disaster, and instantly the whole country knows it. That's called LEADERSHIP and it transcends politics.
===========================
CHRISISALL said:
"Rue does the homework!
"If paid by the hour for the research done here, Rue would have the money to run for office."

AMEN! And I'd vote for him!

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:46 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

1. Last week I organized an effort to send a truck load of relief supplies south, including the truck (which was a surplus industrial dump truck we got from a DUI), as I understand it, it is now the property of the City of Gulfport.

2. Saturday I organized and ran a large flea market at my church, we donated the proceeds to Methodist Katrinia relief, then took up an offering and doubled our intial donation.

3. Sunday I offered prayers in my church for the victims of Katrina, the nation, and the Chief Justice's family.

4. Today I am making an effort to get my City to convert an elementary school (shut down last spring because of school budget issues) into a long or mid-term shelter for I hope 200 displaced persons.

How bout you?

H

Why are you wasting time on this secondary stuff when there are fingers to be pointed and blame to be apportioned? No wonder the Leftistas here hold you in such disregard.

Actually, I'm glad you're in a position within your local government and church community to make these things happen, and that you are making them happen. Wish I could swing as much, but as a retired, not religiously aligned person, all I can do in a practial way is drop bucks on the Red Cross and hope they buy lots of bottled water with it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 12:21 PM

RUXTON

GEEZER,

You may want to contribute instead to the Salvation Army (seriously). There is apparently much graft in the higher-ups at Red Cross, though reports are that Red Cross personnel on the scene are doing a fine job.

The head of Salvation Army gets $13,000 a year (from memory of two days ago), but head of Red Cross gets close to half a million a year.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 12:41 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Why are you wasting time on this secondary stuff when there are fingers to be pointed and blame to be apportioned? No wonder the Leftistas here hold you in such disregard.

Hero is the man. All I did was donate the cost of repairing my broken sun roof.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 1:35 PM

By the way, I second what perfessergee said about hearing everyone on here. When someone tells you you (Finn) or anyone else should stay off the board, take it as high emotion. I am subject to it myself at times.
For instance, I may feel that AJ is being an idiot about things in the extreme, but he is hardly a troll.

But Bush still sucks Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 1:37 PM

PERFESSERGEE

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Perfesser,

With all due respect, I think you do not understand the rage of those such as I who have watched this administration bungle everything it's touched since day one (and I am not a Democrat nor even slightly left-oriented). But this just takes the cake when posters here who have access to the Internet cannot see where the fault lies. Even MSM newscasters see it and rightly blame the administration. If you saw Keith Olbermenn's muted but extremely potent commentary last night you would begin to understand my complete lack of patience with assholes, and my willingness to tell them to go to hell because their blindness and incapability of intelligent thought, coupled with blind faith in a failed leader, does absolutely no good for anyone on this forum nor for the dying poor in New Orleans.

What's worse, I was not the least surprised by Bush's inaction. I expected it.

And many more than Bush are to blame: Chertoff. Cheney (where the HELL is he?). Local N.O. government, etc. We cannot give them (nor their toadies) any kind of a pass nor any break or it will just happen again.

Thank you for your time. Now, go teach.

Ruxton,

Actually, I not only understand the rage, I share it. I'm not a Democrat or a leftist either, but I don't give this administration a pass on pretty much anything they've done since taking office. I think that future historians will look back on these 8 years as being the most harmful to US public and private life since the Great Depression. But that's not the point. You appear to think that, in defending the right of others to speak, that I am agreeing with or at least condoning their positions. That is simply not the case. I've engaged in long, usually fruitless debates on these boards with some of them. People in our society have the right to express opinions based on grievously flawed logic and presentation of evidence. It's the duty of those who disagree to point out those flaws (for all the good it may do), but not to shut off debate. I argue against the latter, not the former.

Let the debate continue.....

perfessergee

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 1:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Why are you wasting time on this secondary stuff when there are fingers to be pointed and blame to be apportioned? No wonder the Leftistas here hold you in such disregard

So Geezer- what makes you think that people who point fingers don't ALSO get involved to solve the problem? Moveon.org made 42,000 beds available thru its website http://rawstory.com/news/2005/MoveOn_makes_available_34000_beds_for_Ka
trina_sur_0902.html and Air America radio makes voicemail contact availble. I personally laid a significant chunk of change on the Red Cross, and tomorrow I will be donating blood.

You seem to think that people who agitate for improvement are so very, very limited. Well- I can take care of my family, run a demo for the DOD, give blood and money and STILL have enough piss & vinegar (and outrage... and mental capacity

) to see that things ain't right. And one of the things I NEVER kid myself about is the notion that all those politicians in DC lay awake nights thinking about how to protect us. HA!! So...

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 1:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:

The head of Salvation Army gets $13,000 a year (from memory of two days ago), but head of Red Cross gets close to half a million a year.

Ruxton, if thse numbers are accurate, it is very telling, indeed.

Too many dollars don't make sense Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 2:02 PM

So what is the single biggest factor in all the lives lost? Is it the clueless human bantha foddor that Dubya chose as head of FEMA, after he f***ed it up by folding it into another agency?
That would seem to me to be the weakest link here (if you don't count general Federal inaction and seeming contempt for life).

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 2:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just thought you'd be interested in news from the (medical) trenches:

http://medscapenursing.blogs.com/medscape_nursing/hurricane_katrina_nu
rses_and_nps_help/index.html BTW, the Salvation Army in LA is the biggest slumlord around. I kind of soured on the Salvation Army after I heard that.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 2:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Just thought you'd be interested in news from the (medical) trenches:

http://medscapenursing.blogs.com/medscape_nursing/hurricane_katrina_nu
rses_and_nps_help/index.html BTW, the Salvation Army in LA is the biggest slumlord around. I kind of soured on the Salvation Army after I heard that.

Thanks, SignyM, for keeping it real for us. Almost had to keep from crying while I was reading...

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 3:09 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

" US President George W Bush says he will lead an investigation into how the Hurricane Katrina disaster was handled. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4220246.stm

poor Al ( goatboy )Gore.........

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 3:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what is the single biggest factor in all the lives lost? Is it the clueless human bantha foddor that Dubya chose as head of FEMA, after he f***ed it up by folding it into another agency?
That would seem to me to be the weakest link here (if you don't count general Federal inaction and seeming contempt for life).

Chrisisall

I disagree. I think its a three-way tie between the Mayor, who had to have a personal phone call from President Bush on Sunday BEFORE he would order an evacuation, the Governor who didn't authorize the LA National Guard to commandeer vehicles (buses and such) for evacuation until Wednesday afternoon, and the crimnals who disrupted early efforts to send aid into the city.

H

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 3:34 PM