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Why did FEMA block Wal-Mart shipments of water to the New Orleans area?
Why did FEMA block fuel shipments to the New Orleans area?
Why did FEMA cut emergency communication lines from the New Orleans area?
Why wouldn't FEMA let the Red Cross deliver food to the New Orleans area?
Why wouldn't FEMA let the people in downtown New Orleans leave?
Why wouldn't FEMA let others come in to deliver relief supplies or
transportation out from New Orleans?
Why did it take the government 5 days to give a "yes" to airlines who had asked to
ferry refugees out of New Orleans for free, immediately after the storm?

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Guess this thread can just die then.

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Originally posted by Hero:
We don't have to let it die. How about we label Ruxton a troll and discuss why we should ignore him?

Here, I'll go first:

I don't agree with what he says. He's a troll. Ignore him. He's in the paid employ of the Democratic Party and tasked with infiltrating this board to post his propaganda. So you better ignore him or I'll say mean things about you. Call you a troll. (Shakes fist at screen.)

There. I leave the rest to you.

H

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:

By the way.....

What is, in your opinion, the most reliable nonpartisan factchecker website.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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We don't have to let it die

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:

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We don't have to let it die

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I notice you're keen to keep this one alive, Hero, but never responded to my 'Leadership' thread.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, does anyone have anything MEANINGFUL to say? If not, then this thread really DOES deserve to die. I'll play taps...

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
CANTTAKESKY's first NY Times link repeats the claims made by Jefferson Parish President Boussard on Meet the Press, but provides no validation of his claims.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
What do you mean by validation? You want an internal memo from FEMA on the internet that shows they rejected offers of aid? The NYTimes article quotes Boussard's claims *in addition* to others who reported FEMA's rejection of aid. I'm wondering what isn't good enough for you here. What would be good enough to convince you that FEMA did indeed reject offers of aid while people were dying? I need to know so I don't waste time sending you links to the NYTimes. (And yes the last link was to an editorial. It says "opinion" right there in the link.)

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Sharon Weber of Wal-Mart called back. She said that last week, FEMA diverted those water trucks to "another location, which [FEMA] felt was in greater need than where they were headed." Weber emphasized that Wal-Mart would not override any FEMA decisions made in emergency situations. So Broussard, who claimed that Wal-Mart's aid was ourtight rejected, was wrong. Based on Wal-Mart's information, their trucks were taken where FEMA thought they were needed most.

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Originally posted by rue:
I saw a news report on CBS the other day that had serious timeline errors (declaration of national emergency). It also highlighted selected bits of information while ignoring others (said Nagin waited to call 'an evacuation' rather than saying a voluntary evacuation was ordered, followed by a mandatory one), and in addition expressed dubious legal opinions (for example, that the Insurrection Act needed to be invoked).

You have to be careful, for too many network news shows the news means simply parroting either the administration or what some other drone said longer and louder than anyone else.

It is most helpful to read original documents (NOLA, FEMA) and original legal decisions (National Guard). In my experience, the media depend on the fact that virtually no one will fact-check them.

Failing that, foreign English-language media is a generally good source of information.

Other than that, all of the to-the-minute news sources have generally been archived, so it's not possible to go back to unfiltered sources. It would be nice if the news links from before landfall through the first few days I provided are still active, though I suspect not.

So, smooth move Geezer. You will not find many active links from when it matters.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I heard, but have not had time to verify, that Blanco asked for 700 buses from FEMA for evacuaiton, and FEMA only sent 100. Add this to your list- it should be easy to verify or disprove.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I heard, but have not had time to verify, that Blanco asked for 700 buses from FEMA for evacuaiton, and FEMA only sent 100. Add this to your list- it should be easy to verify or disprove.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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"Bureaucratic glitches slowed progress from the beginning. On Sunday, the day before the storm, the Louisiana National Guard asked FEMA for 700 buses to evacuate people. It received only 100."

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Originally posted by Geezer:
1. Some independent source that it actually occurred.
2. Verification that it was actually FEMA.
3. If it did occur, what was the reason behind it?

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http://www.livejournal.com/users/sfsocialists/3687.html
On Day 2, there were approximately 500 of us left in the hotels in the French Quarter. We were a mix of foreign tourists, conference attendees like ourselves, and locals who had checked into hotels for safety and shelter from
Katrina. Some of us had cell phone contact with family and friends outside of New Orleans. We were repeatedly told that all sorts of resources including the National Guard and scores of buses were pouring in to the City. The buses and the
other resources must have been invisible because none of us had seen them.

We decided we had to save ourselves. So we pooled our money and came up with $25,000 to have ten buses come and take us out of the City. Those who did not have the requisite $45.00 for a ticket were subsidized by those who did have
extra money. We waited for 48 hours for the buses, spending the last 12 hours standing outside, sharing the limited water, food, and clothes we had. We created a priority boarding area for the sick, elderly and new born babies. We waited late into the night for the "imminent" arrival of the buses. The buses never arrived. We later learned that the minute the arrived to the City limits, they were commandeered by the military.

By day 4 our hotels had run out of fuel and water. Sanitation was dangerously abysmal. As the desperation and despair increased, street crime as well as water levels began to rise. The hotels turned us out and locked their doors,
telling us that the "officials" told us to report to the convention center to wait for more buses. As we entered the center of the City, we finally encountered the National Guard.

The Guards told us we would not be allowed into the Superdome as the City's primary shelter had been descended into a humanitarian and health hellhole. The guards further told us that the City's only other shelter, the Convention
Center, was also descending into chaos and squalor and that the police were not allowing anyone else in. Quite naturally, we asked, "If we can't go to the only 2 shelters in the City, what was our alternative?" The guards told us that that was our problem, and no they did not have extra water to give to us. This would be the start of our numerous encounters with callous and hostile "law enforcement".

We walked to the police command center at Harrah's on Canal Street and were told the same thing, that we were on our own, and no they did not have water to give us. We now numbered several hundred. We held a mass meeting to decide a course of action. We agreed to camp outside the police command post. We would be plainly visible to the media and would constitute a highly visible embarrassment to the City officials. The police told us that we could not stay. Regardless, we began to settle in and set up camp. In short order, the police
commander came across the street to address our group. He told us he had a solution: we should walk to the Pontchartrain Expressway and cross the greater New Orleans Bridge where the police had buses lined up to take us out of the City. The crowed cheered and began to move. We called everyone back and explained to the commander that there had been lots of misinformation and wrong information and was he sure that there were buses waiting for us. The commander
turned to the crowd and stated emphatically, "I swear to you that the buses are there."

We organized ourselves and the 200 of us set off for the bridge with great excitement and hope. As we marched pasted the convention center, many locals saw our determined and optimistic group and asked where we were headed. We told them about the great news. Families immediately grabbed their few belongings and quickly our numbers doubled and then doubled again. Babies in strollers now joined us, people using crutches, elderly clasping walkers and others
people in wheelchairs. We marched the 2-3 miles to the freeway and up the steep incline to the Bridge. It now began to pour down rain, but it did not dampen our enthusiasm.

As we approached the bridge, armed Gretna Sheriffs formed a line across the foot of the bridge. Before we were close enough to speak, they began firing their weapons over our heads. This sent the crowd fleeing in various directions. As the crowd scattered and dissipated, a few of us inched forward and
managed to engage some of the sheriffs in conversation. We told them of our
conversation with the police commander and of the commander's assurances. The sheriffs informed us there were no buses waiting. The commander had lied to us to get us to move.

We questioned why we couldn't cross the bridge anyway, especially as there was little traffic on the 6-lane highway. They responded that the West Bank was not going to become New Orleans and there would be no Superdomes in their
City. These were code words for if you are poor and black, you are not crossing the Mississippi River and you were not getting out of New Orleans.

Our small group retreated back down Highway 90 to seek shelter from the rain under an overpass. We debated our options and in the end decided to build an encampment in the middle of the Ponchartrain Expressway on the center divide,
between the O'Keefe and Tchoupitoulas exits. We reasoned we would be visible to everyone, we would have some security being on an elevated freeway and we could wait and watch for the arrival of the yet to be seen buses.

All day long, we saw other families, individuals and groups make the same trip up the incline in an attempt to cross the bridge, only to be turned away. Some chased away with gunfire, others simply told no, others to be verbally
berated and humiliated. Thousands of New Orleaners were prevented and prohibited
from self-evacuating the City on foot. (emphasis mine) Meanwhile, the only two City shelters
sank further into squalor and disrepair. The only way across the bridge was by vehicle. We saw workers stealing trucks, buses, moving vans, semi-trucks and any car that could be hotwired. All were packed with people trying to escape the misery New Orleans had become.

Our little encampment began to blossom. Someone stole a water delivery truck and brought it up to us. Let's hear it for looting! A mile or so down the freeway, an army truck lost a couple of pallets of C-rations on a tight turn. We ferried the food back to our camp in shopping carts. Now secure with the two necessities, food and water; cooperation, community, and creativity
flowered. We organized a clean up and hung garbage bags from the rebar poles. We made beds from wood pallets and cardboard. We designated a storm drain as the bathroom and the kids built an elaborate enclosure for privacy out of plastic, broken umbrellas, and other scraps. We even organized a food recycling system
where individuals could swap out parts of C-rations (applesauce for babies and
candies for kids!).

This was a process we saw repeatedly in the aftermath of Katrina. When individuals had to fight to find food or water, it meant looking out for yourself only. You had to do whatever it took to find water for your kids or food for
your parents. When these basic needs were met, people began to look out for each other, working together and constructing a community.

If the relief organizations had saturated the City with food and water in the first 2 or 3 days, the desperation, the frustration and the ugliness would not have set in.

Flush with the necessities, we offered food and water to passing families and individuals. Many decided to stay and join us. Our encampment grew to 80 or 90 people.

From a woman with a battery powered radio we learned that the media was talking about us. Up in full view on the freeway, every relief and news organizations saw us on their way into the City. Officials were being asked what they
were going to do about all those families living up on the freeway? The officials responded they were going to take care of us. Some of us got a sinking feeling. "Taking care of us" had an ominous tone to it.

Unfortunately, our sinking feeling (along with the sinking City) was correct. Just as dusk set in, a Gretna Sheriff showed up, jumped out of his patrol vehicle, aimed his gun at our faces, screaming, "Get off the fucking freeway".
A helicopter arrived and used the wind from its blades to blow away our flimsy structures. As we retreated, the sheriff loaded up his truck with our food and water.

Once again, at gunpoint, we were forced off the freeway. All the law enforcement agencies appeared threatened when we congregated or congealed into groups of 20 or more. In every congregation of "victims" they saw "mob" or "riot". We felt safety in numbers. Our "we must stay together" was impossible because
the agencies would force us into small atomized groups.

In the pandemonium of having our camp raided and destroyed, we scattered once again. Reduced to a small group of 8 people, in the dark, we sought refuge in an abandoned school bus, under the freeway on Cilo Street. We were hiding from possible criminal elements but equally and definitely, we were hiding from the police and sheriffs with their martial law, curfew and shoot-to-kill policies.

The next days, our group of 8 walked most of the day, made contact with New Orleans Fire Department and were eventually airlifted out by an urban search and rescue team....

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
I'd buy it if they disclose the location so we can judge whether that location came anywhere near the need of 30-40K people trapped without water in the Superdome and Convention Center. I'm really scratching my head here, but I can't think of any location that would have a greater NEED, can you?

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Neither the Superdome or the Convention center are in Jefferson Parish, where Mr. Broussard is president, So reallocating the water didn't impact those sites negatively. I too would like to know where it went.

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FEMA halted tractor trailers hauling water to a supply staging area in Alexandria, Louisiana, The New York Times quoted William Vines, former mayor of Fort Smith, Arkansas, as saying. "FEMA would not let the trucks unload," he told the newspaper. "The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road" because, he said, they did not have a "tasker number." He added, "What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork and it's ridiculous.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, here's one possible verification (or, at least a source claiming to be first-hand):

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FEMA halted tractor trailers hauling water to a supply staging area in Alexandria, Louisiana, The New York Times quoted William Vines, former mayor of Fort Smith, Arkansas, as saying. "FEMA would not let the trucks unload," he told the newspaper. "The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road" because, he said, they did not have a "tasker number." He added, "What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork and it's ridiculous.

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www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/15/katrina.response/index.html

However, there is a lot more info in the article than just this one item. It's an interesting read.

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Originally posted by rue:
"So you've just explained how you can feel free to continue to believe things that can't be verified. Smooth move, Rue."

Actually, I said to use 1) original documents (rather than news commentary on what might or might not be in the documents), 2) foreign news sources (generally have less bias) and 3) original news items from the time period in question (along with links, I posted extended quotes which could be googled to pull up secondary sources.) If worse came to worse, one could always pay the fee for an archived item. It would just not be freely available to anyone via link.

I base my beliefs on verifiable information. And you?

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Neither the Superdome or the Convention center are in Jefferson Parish, where Mr. Broussard is president, So reallocating the water didn't impact those sites negatively. I too would like to know where it went.

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Where do you think the residents of Jefferson Parish were? They were flooded out and relocated to the Superdome and Convention Center. I'd say refusing those water trucks impacted those sites negatively.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Originally posted by Geezer:
But the trucks were supposedly turned away from Jefferson parish for another destination. Maybe the Superdome, since there were lots of folks there? Just supposition, since I don't have that info. I'd still like to know where the trucks went.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
Right, they were diverted to somewhere with a greater need. I reiterate my question: where was there a greater need than the SD/CC? Why didn't they get that water? (We know they didn't because their first supplies were those highly publicized military convoy trucks 5-6 days later.)

Whether Jefferson Parish and the SD/CC were the same population or different is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is SD/CC didn't get the water they could have gotten had those Wal-Mart trucks been let through.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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The fact of the matter is SD/CC didn't get the water they could have gotten had those Wal-Mart trucks been let through.

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Thursday, September 8

Major Garrett updates us on the Red Cross AND the Salvation Army being blocked from helping by Louisiana state officials

HH: Making an encore appearance, and we're very grateful for it, Major Garrett of Fox News Channel. Major, you certainly made waves yesterday. Perhaps the most reported story in America was yours. You followed up on it tonight. What has your investigation into the Red Cross relationship with the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security revealed today?

MG: A couple of things. First of all, it established on tonight's Special Report, that it wasn't just the Red Cross. It was the Salvation Army. Both agencies, both organizations were ready, prepared, pre-positioned, eager, but were thwarted in their efforts to bring supplies, basic supplies...not everything these people needed, but core supplies to the Superdome, and then eventually, the convention center. Why? Because the New Orleans Department of Homeland Security said look. Our plan is to evacuate these people. Marty Evans, the President and the CEO of the American Red Cross, said on camera...you don't have to believe me. Believe her. You can read her own eyes, saying look. We were told if we came in, we would create an atmosphere that would lead people to stay, and give them the feeling that they should stay. And the state did not want that.

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Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?
• Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.
• The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Okay, let's try again.

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WOODY BAIRD Associated Press Writer

(AP) - MEMPHIS, Tennessee-About 200 (TWO HUNDRED!) tractor-trailer trucks with ice and water for victims of Hurricane Katrina took a convoluted, weeklong trip to a storage depot in Memphis, partly because of what the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers called "miscommunication."

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Originally posted by SignyM:
FEMA ice truck convoy sent on twisting, weeklong route to hurricane storage depot

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Originally posted by SignyM:
FEMA ice truck convoy sent on twisting, weeklong route to hurricane storage depot

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WOODY BAIRD Associated Press Writer

(AP) - MEMPHIS, Tennessee-About 200 (TWO HUNDRED!) tractor-trailer trucks with ice and water for victims of Hurricane Katrina took a convoluted, weeklong trip to a storage depot in Memphis, partly because of what the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers called "miscommunication."

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They'll get it right one of these days!

http://news.findlaw.com/ap/o/51/09-13-2005/5c2d000aa3064d5d.html

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Originally posted by jaif:
- What about the national guard?... The delay on the governor's part is practically criminal, in this regard.

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With all due respect I think you are focussing your lens in the wrong direction, like most of the media...the proper place to point your lens is at the local and state govts.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Not everyone in southern Louisiana was evacuated to the SD/CC.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

This is my last post on this argument. If you don't understand that Jefferson Parish is a subsection of the city of New Orleans, then you are either beyond my ability to communicate or being deliberately obtuse.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Originally posted by Geezer:
You apparently think the water was dumped in the sewer or otherwise wasted.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
Read my lips. Wal-Mart offered water to New Orleans. FEMA turned it away from New Orleans. At least forty thousand residents in New Orleans continued to be without food and water for 6 days after the hurricane, despite being offered private aid. None of these are assumptions. Where the water actually went doesn't concern me. It only matters where it didn't go.

You want to give FEMA the benefit of the doubt that they had a good reason for keeping 40K American citizens from getting the water offered to them. I want to put FEMA officials (and all local and state officials as well) on criminal charges, and let the jury decide if they had a good reason or not.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Maybe to another area of Metro New Orleans, maybe not...your statements are just guesses.

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Does your "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy apply only to the government,

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The report that the governor did not request federal help until after the hurricane was later proven to be erroneous.

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The focus of this thread is to verify accusations against FEMA

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
I think then it is obvious we don't have any common ground upon which to continue this discussion.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
I want to find out what really happened. No common ground.

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You want to hang someone out to dry, proof or not.

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