Politics aboard the Galactica (NOT the one with Muffet!)*spoilers up to 2.10* by chrisisall

I'd comment here, but I'm not sure how far into season 2 you are.... don't want to drop a spoiler( and its not in the thread title), this show is too damn good to ruin it for you

Are you up to 2x11 ?

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:20 PM

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:40 PM

DARTHVEGAS

This is something that has bugged me too a bit.

However if I was trying to win the Marvel NoPrize on this issue; I like to think that since there is only 50k people left, that politics have become more personal and informal. Maybe recogizing the need to let bygones be bygones since there are too few people with the skills and power to govern.

'Might have been on the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I'd comment here, but I'm not sure how far into season 2 you are.... don't want to drop a spoiler( and its not in the thread title), this show is too damn good to ruin it for you

Are you up to 2x11 ?

I'm up to 2.10, the last ep on the new DVD's. I posted the spoiler alert. What a frakin' amazing ride so far...

Pegasus. Lords of Kobol save us...

Colonial Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 12:14 PM

I’m in the same sitch as you, Chris. Up to 2.10, off the DVDs.

I don’t really have much of a problem with the inconsistency between militarism and lovy-dovyness, because I really don’t see it as such. Since the miniseries, the crew of the Galactica (and Adama in particular) have treated each other as a family. At the same time, Adama is also aware that they are still a military unit (and has consistently been wary of the ‘inexperienced’ President Roslin—given his views of the late President Adar, Adama probably also held political views in opposition to Roslin’s even before the war). Despite his “soft touch,” he’s a military man and thus would have different reactions to situations than Roslin, leading to some initial conflict.

But when Roslin encourages Starbuck to find the Arrow of Apollo she’s not only breaking her agreement with Adama to stay out of military affairs, she’s not only interfering with discipline onboard his ship, she’s messing with his family. And that’s why the coup happens. What Adama was originally intending to do afterwards is interrupted by his injury and Tigh steps in to muck things up. By the time he’s recovered, Adama realizes it’s insane to break up the fleet over this—he extends his manufactured family outwards to encompass not just the Galactica, but everybody. And then he sets about putting the family back together.

Gotta go, I’ll look into some of your other discussion topics later.

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:13 PM

TANSTAAFL28

I was thinking Roslyn could have quelled the whole issue by just promoting Adama over Caine, but I suppose that wouldn't have really done much to solve the problem in the long run.

"You can't take the sky from me..."

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:49 PM

That would assume Caine would accept Roslins authority.....

Damn you all will just lose your minds when you see 2x11.....

I've been on the edge of my seat all week waiting for 2x12

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Damn you all will just lose your minds when you see 2x11.....

WHAT? I almost lost my mind at 2x10!!!!!!Every ep has fraked me over more than the last!!!!!!!!!!

Fraked-up Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
By the time he’s recovered, Adama realizes it’s insane to break up the fleet over this—he extends his manufactured family outwards to encompass not just the Galactica, but everybody.

Your assessment is spot on, I'll have to say.

But as to Zarrek's idea of re-instating a capitalist system- I think it has merrits, but would work better planetside, they ARE still under emergency conditions in space, and I think they should all support eachother as best they can for now, despite the the socialist 'feel' of it.

Not Mandatory Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tanstaafl28:
I was thinking Roslyn could have quelled the whole issue by just promoting Adama over Caine, but I suppose that wouldn't have really done much to solve the problem in the long run.

That might have had Caine think seriously about blowing Galactica to pieces, imo.
Pegasus seems to be full of wackjobs on the edge...

Chrisisall, Viper-lover

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Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:59 PM

It's not consistant because they are literally making it up as they go along. People expecting B5 style consistent arcs are likely to be disappointed.

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Friday, January 13, 2006 5:53 AM

I'm okay with that as long as it is consistant in it's entertainment value, ie, no 'Okay, I'm tired now, you guys (lesser talented ones) take it over for a while' syndrome.

No Muffits Chrisisall

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Friday, January 13, 2006 12:29 PM

TANSTAAFL28

This version of BSG is much more visceral, and a whole lot less idealistic than its predecessor. They've gone to great lengths to show just how desperate their situation is. They've also demonstrated that, even with their very survival on the line, human beings have a hard time agreeing with one another.

Consistent story arcs get boring fast. A show that evolves with the characters and isn't afraid to show its rough edges for what they are keeps one intrested in seeing what goes down next.

"You can't take the sky from me..."

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Friday, January 13, 2006 12:42 PM

I'm not talking about innovating as the series progresses. I'm talking about making up big stuff that doesnt really make sense.

Case in point, the Cylons nuke the colonies because then the writers were thinking of doing a war of genocide. Then in series 2 we discover that the Cylons are trying to breed with the survivors. You know they would have had more success if they were not trying to do that with traumatised, irradiated survivors of a nuclear war!

When they nuked the planet they had no idea what the Cylon "Master plan" was, according to podcasts by the writer they came up with that at the end of series 1. Whoopsy.

I don't mind winging it to get from A to B but I do expect them to know before they set out just where "B" is.

I stopped watching the X files when I realised that they had no idea what they were doing with the conpiracy theory stuff just making up complexity is not actually writing modern TV, it's soap opera writing without the same level of character development.

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 6:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Then in series 2 we discover that the Cylons are trying to breed with the survivors.

Awww Fletch, now you're makin' me think too much...

Chrisisall the daggit

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:35 AM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by tanstaafl28:
I was thinking Roslyn could have quelled the whole issue by just promoting Adama over Caine, but I suppose that wouldn't have really done much to solve the problem in the long run.

"You can't take the sky from me..."

In a society where the rules are still in effect (the military is subservient to civil authority), that is exactly the correct solution. In this case, Caine has become deranged by her desire for vengeance. She has never acknowledged Roslyn's authority. In fact, she has conspicuously shown absolutely no committment to any civilian authority (or even concern for civilian well-being... but no further comment on that because of spoilers). She has but one purpose left in her life... to strike back at Cylons. Anything that serves that purpose, she will embrace. Anything that hinders that purpose she will destroy.

For my part, I wonder why a more direct solution wasn't implemented in the first ep of season 2.1 to resolve the Caine problem (again, won't go into it here due to potential spoilers for 2.1, but you can probably guess). Of course I know the answer... if people did sensible things in these shows, the writers couldn't artifically string the conflict out for several episodes. It is the use of artificial behavior/means for sustaining tension that bothers me the most about some "story arc" shows (BSG, Lost, et. al.). I love these shows... but at some point I find myself screaming at the TV, "Just push him down the stairs and be done with it!!"

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:55 AM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
...Case in point, the Cylons nuke the colonies because then the writers were thinking of doing a war of genocide. Then in series 2 we discover that the Cylons are trying to breed with the survivors. You know they would have had more success if they were not trying to do that with traumatised, irradiated survivors of a nuclear war!

If true, I find this worrisome. That kind of flying by the seat of the pants is a recipe for destroying the show. Where did you hear this information?

As for destroying the colonies before beginning their breeding project, I can spin a story for why they would approach it that way. But, it should be the writers who spin that story, not me. And they should have it spun in their heads BEFORE they start committing the series to episodes that might conflict with that story.

Just my opinion...

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DanFan:

If true, I find this worrisome. That kind of flying by the seat of the pants is a recipe for destroying the show. Where did you hear this information?

Ron Moore described this in several of his podcast commentaries. It grew out of the fact that Helo was originally just supposed to be a bit player in the miniseries who is left on Caprica and dies. But the actor was so good, and the character got such a response from the audience, that they decided to keep him around, which was not one of their planned story arcs. And in writing “33,” Moore got up to the point where Helo was temporarily caught by Six and the Centurions. He didn’t know where to go from there and then suddenly thought “What if Boomer appears and ‘saves’ him.” He wrote it with no idea where it would lead, which he eventually justified with the interbreeding storyline.

However, I think we’d all be surprised by how unplanned most TV shows are. You literally can’t plan everything out ahead of time; your seasonal arc could fall apart if an actor gets another commitment, or gets sick, or pregnant, or another opportune storyline appears through the progress of the season. As a result, planning for season arcs is generally done in very vague terms, with a great deal of flexibility. Joss Whedon is famed for having long-term planned story arcs, but on a number of the Buffy commentaries and other interviews he explains that these arcs were generally vague sketches that he filled out as went along, because if he planned it out too closely it would fall apart around him anyway.

An example of this unpredictability can be found in “Buffy;” where Spike was supposed to be a disposable villain killed off in the middle of the second season, but the actor and the character impressed them so they decided to keep him around--and he became an incredibly important character as the series progressed. It was only the flexibility of the arc that allowed them to keep him around, and it was a good decision.

Which is not to say that making things up as you go along is always a good idea. You have to have some sort of planning or everything will fall apart. And in the case of BSG, they actually did have a planned seasonal arc: the tensions between Roslyn and Adama would eventually result in the coup. That was the plan from the beginning. But along the way, they found lots of new stuff that altered other story arcs. I imagine that like Joss and other showrunners, Moore sketches out a plan for each season, but beyond the season finale his ideas get much vaguer.

I guess what I’m saying is that to a degree you have to fly by the seat of your pants in television. You need a basic plan, but you also need the flexibility to change the plan as the situation requires. And almost every show with any kind of arc does this. It’s a dangerous balance to walk; if you’re too locked into your plan, you’re screwed when something unexpected pops up. But if you’re making too much of it up as you go along, everything stops making sense and the program becomes ludicrous. As of right now, I think BSG has managed to maintain the careful balance and I’m not too worried about the future.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
You need a basic plan, but you also need the flexibility to change the plan as the situation requires.

Hey, didn't Bruce Lee say something similar about martial arts?

Yeah, so far, so good with BSG. It looks like they can handle it.

Chrisisall, holdin' his breath untill the next DVD set is out!

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:13 PM

Quote:
Chrisisall, holdin' his breath untill the next DVD set is out!

I'm right there with you, Chris.

Unless I get this fraking time machine working...

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:54 PM

DIETCOKE

All I can say is if the writers are flying by the seat of their pants, keep flying! I love this show.

NY/NJ/CT Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:32 PM

For me it's a big thing. There are a number of other things that piss me off. Could be that I'm a nit picker but here's a couple that REALLY get to me.

1) The chief decides to build a new Viper from bits and pieces just lying around. I understand that it's principly for recreation because something cobbled together from old engines and bits and pieces just isn't going to have the performance of a professionally designed military aircraft. However, when Helo suggests they give it a black plastic skin it turns out to be stealthy (note, was not designed to be stealthy, that's a last minute design accident.) This happens JUST before they happen to need a stealth spacecraft (lucky) and the moment they no longer need a stealth spacecraft it's destroyed.

2) Humanoid Cylons are so perfect a copy of a human being that you cant detect them with Colonial medical technology. However later it appears that Boomer has a set of optical transceiver hookups in her wrists. Cylons have some kind of transmiter to beam their consciousness away when they die. Yet this transmitter and it's power source are undetectable. Humanoid Cylons are far stronger than human beings, yet you cant see any physiologic or structural changes to support this.

It vexes me

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:45 PM

DIETCOKE

Well if it really bothers you I would suggest not watching the show. Hey, it's suppose to be entertaining and if it isn't working for you, try to find something that is.

Remember, this is a make beleive world. It's science fiction.

NY/NJ/CT Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
2) Humanoid Cylons are so perfect a copy of a human being that you cant detect them with Colonial medical technology. However later it appears that Boomer has a set of optical transceiver hookups in her wrists.

The cells in her blood were transferring ' bio-data' through genetic information; the optical leads in the wires are what you saw working, and they are capable of reading this data off Cylon cells by the design for emergency use...
*Aghhh, the PAIN*

Fletch, you're damaging my suspension of disbelief...

Chrisisall, also stronger than average humans, wanna test me?

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:05 PM

Dietcoke, I don't tell you what you should watch I would be obliged if you did me the same curtousy.

Chris, it bugs me is all. The head writer, Ron Moore set himself up by spouting rubbish about "reinventing the genre" in the runup to the show. B5 when it came on rewrote the rules, Farscape and Firefly did some great stuff without claiming to be most brilliant thing on TV. If you open your mouth and say you are going to innovate then show me the innovation, so far I see a camera and effects style borrowed from Firefly and a lax regard for storytelling taken from the worse of Trek. Is it entertaining, yes but so was the X-Files before the conspiracy stuff became rediculous.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:03 PM

Fletch, I guess entertaining is all I ask these days. Your criticisms are legitimate and understandable, no matter how I fanboy it.
Not everything can be as original and well-written as Farscape, Firefly, or DARK ANGEL, I suppose.

Worked Max in somewhere again Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
By the time he’s recovered, Adama realizes it’s insane to break up the fleet over this—he extends his manufactured family outwards to encompass not just the Galactica, but everybody.
Your assessment is spot on, I'll have to say.

But as to Zarrek's idea of re-instating a capitalist system- I think it has merrits, but would work better planetside, they ARE still under emergency conditions in space, and I think they should all support eachother as best they can for now, despite the the socialist 'feel' of it.

Not Mandatory Chrisisall

To add to your ideas here, the Galactica was short pilots, so they started a flight school...

to extent that idea, they are going to need Marines, damage control techs, officers and dozens of other trained positions simply to maintain operations...

plus you need the same for ALL the other ships

plus, how many doctors do they have in these >50,000, note when Adama was shot a medic had to perform surgery for the fact she was the only one around with any clue...

While things are still up in the air, the need to organize, start putting those 50,000 people to work ensuring their own survival needs to be done, as I am sure it is to some extent ( no storylines going there yet )

Capitalism simply can't work here, you need everyone to pull their weight ( hopefully in the same direction ) currency, to be reinstated down the road... you have to put people either to work, or training to fill a position NOW, not after the bids have gone out.

And if you have people who can't do anything, then
why ?

I could likely find something for anyone

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:49 PM

I suppose having them fail around passes for good drama.

I think that may be part of my frustration, I keep having the impulse to bitch slap some sense into these people. If everyone was ineffectual but the plot points were valid I could maybe shrug them off, but the combination of half assed plotting and dumb ass characters just annoys me. I haven't watched it since it came back (though other folks have told me the plots to date) I'm still so so about picking it up again.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:56 AM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
You need a basic plan, but you also need the flexibility to change the plan as the situation requires.

I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
- Dwight Eisenhower

Yeah, I take your point. So did Ike. I will say that BSG has been stretching my suspension of disbelief a bit in the new season. I am a fan of what's usually called "hard" science fiction... i.e., the science needs to make sense and be internally consistent. BSG is telling good stories, but it doesn't seem to be spending as much effort with internal consistency. Examples:

1) Galactica survives the Cylon attack on the colonies because she is obsolete and doesn't have any of the new software/firmware with the backdoors that the Cylon infiltrators snuck into the new systems. Hence Galactica and her fighters stayed active when the Cylons could shut every other ship in the fleet down. So, how exactly did the Pegasus survive? How does it remain an effective warfighter when it engages the Cylons? In my "fanboy" persona, I can spin a story for them to explain it. Why don't they care enough to even TRY to spin a story for me? Or did I miss some explanation that they offered when they introduced the Pegasus? Possible...

2) The stealth fighter is so stealthy that Apollo loses sight of it on its maiden flight. It can fly right through the Cylon formation without detection. Yet it jumps back into the middle of a prickly situation between Galactica and Pegasus and suddenly everybody is distracted by the presence of the unidentified bogey... wasn't it undetectable? Again, I can spin an explanation for them... why are they making that my job, though?

So, I'll say again... I have been entertained by the characters and the storylines. I'm still thoroughly entertained enough by them to watch. But they are getting careless with the logic behind their 'verse. They could easily end up Star Trekking themselves to the point where nothing is logical... everything is resolved by deus ex machina.

That said... I'm still watching.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:

It vexes me

It’s possible to nitpick anything to death, especially sci-fi programs where the suspension of disbelief has to be much higher. And I think part of the problem, though, is that different people nitpick different things. I’m well aware that the Cylons’ physiology really doesn’t make sense--but it doesn’t bother me. The Cylons are mysterious, so their biology would be, too. And I just let it be at that. Seems like other folks are more than a little ticked off by it. The thing is, every program is a balance of strengths and weaknesses. Good programs are those which either minimize their weaknesses or whose strengths outshine their weaknesses. Programs that you like are those whose strengths interest you and whose weaknesses you can forgive or ignore. Which is a roundabout way of saying some people juggle geese.

I see Ron Moore as cast in the Whedon mold in the sense that he wants a sense of realism in a way that other sci-fi shows haven’t (the ‘verse has no sound in space, BSG’s ships follow Newtonian physics), but at the same time he has an impulse towards more off-the-wall, fantastic story elements because he’s an imaginative fellow, but not a real scientist. This approach creates a problem because you have enough realism to attract the hard SF crowd, but then the wacky stuff pisses them off while interesting more soft SF audiences. I think Joss was better able to balance things than Moore, but hey, he’s a genius.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:

The head writer, Ron Moore set himself up by spouting rubbish about "reinventing the genre" in the runup to the show.... If you open your mouth and say you are going to innovate then show me the innovation, so far I see a camera and effects style borrowed from Firefly and a lax regard for storytelling taken from the worse of Trek.

I agree that Moore comes off as a tad arrogant in those statements, especially when he talks about how BSG was the “first” sci-fi show to use the documentary, handheld style (apparently, he never saw “Firefly” and came up with this all on his own, but I still simmer with browncoat rage that he isn’t giving props where they’re due

). But I think Moore’s big drive was similar to one of Whedon’s motivations; bringing more of a sense of realism, of “you are there” to sci-fi. The two of them use some similar cinematographic styles, and they are both largely character-driven shows, but they also take different measures to achieve this sense of realism. Which is, after all, just a sense. I’ve heard some people call BSG more “realistic” than “Firefly,” but BSG has FTL drive and wonky Cylon biology. On the other hand, “Firefly” has a barely plausible solar system and psychic powers. The goal in both shows is to make the unbelievable aspects more believable by portraying them with a sense of realism, but some folks find certain things more believable than others. I do feel that “Firefly” and BSG are part of a larger movement in sci-fi, Naturalistic Science Fiction ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_science_fiction). And the fact that Joss and Moore apparently came to the same realization independent of each other to me shows that sci-fi really needs this kind of innovation, and it is innovation, away from the traditional Star Trek-esque model. But with “Firefly” already blazing the trail, it’s just not quite as mind-blowing as Moore seems to think.

Quote:
Originally posted by DanFan:

In my "fanboy" persona, I can spin a story for them to explain it. Why don't they care enough to even TRY to spin a story for me?

In the commentary for the Angel episode “RM W/A VU,” writer Jane Espensen notes that they seem to be violating one of their rules for vampires (it’s more of a borderline case, not a blatant violation), but then says that the fans will come up with a better explaination for the inconsistency than anything the writers could. Things always slip past the writers and if they realize it after the fact, they may simply just let the fans wank their occasional gaffes. So, yeah, they do leave some of the slack to us. In this case, however, I think their explanation was that Cain’s near-suicidal blind jump got them away from the Cylons before the virus could kick in. Afterwards, they presumably found some way to protect their computers. It’s also possible that the explanation was cut from the episode; since BSG eps always run long, sometimes important explanations (such as Socinus’ get-out-of-jail-free card in “Kobol’s Last Gleaming, Part I”) get cut. Unfortunately, the Season 2.0 DVDs don’t have commentary or deleted scenes for “Pegasus,” and that’s all I’ve got...which brings me to my next point.

I would like the folks who are using the stealth fighter as an example of inconsistency to please remember the title of this thread: “Politics aboard the Galactica (NOT the one with Muffet!)*spoilers up to 2.10*”. Chris & I haven’t seen anything past ep 2.10, and now we know that the Blackbird’s going to be destroyed within the next few eps. So, please remember the spoiler limit and mark anything after 2.10 with spoiler tags (and I mean anything). Thanks.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
So, please remember the spoiler limit and mark anything after 2.10 with spoiler tags (and I mean anything). Thanks.

What StakeTheLurk said. Another thread like 'Up to the minute spoilers' could be started.
Thank the Lords of Kobol that I'm good at forgetting...um, forg-
What was I talkin' about?

Memory-wiping Chrisisall

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Monday, January 16, 2006 5:03 PM